Classroom Of The Elite - Speed and AP upgrade

[MCH2]

This is actually false lol.

It’s actually true. It’s hard to argue that giving Kushida (and by extension everyone else) 1.2 MJ durability and Ichika 1.2 MJ AP isn’t an outlier when just yesterday (not literally yesterday) the verse got upgraded because Kouenji tanked a 49 KJ fall off a mountain.

Kushida took this strike to the face and was merely in pain, she didn’t even black out. Not even a mild traumatic brain injury. If this strike is 1.2 MJ (it’s not), Kushida would unquestionably scale to that in durability.

And this would also cause issues because anyone who’s scale close or above Ichika(many do in strength), would be upscaled to this. And that would retroactively cause plotholes.

And again, regardless of that, the foundations of the whole calc is that Kushida reached the ground before she heard the sound. Not only does Kushida mention the sound before she mentions hitting the ground, delayed audio processing is a possible explanation.

I think the calc should be wholeheartedly rejected.

 

[RoggerReggor]

Kushida took this strike to the face and was merely in pain, she didn’t even black out. Not even a mild traumatic brain injury. If this strike is 1.2 MJ (it’s not), Kushida would unquestionably scale to that in durability.

This is an understatement. "Merely in pain" cannot explain it. She felt blood hemorrhaging under her skin, it was a heavy burning sensation for her and she was probably even suffering from a non-lethal internal bleeding.

And Kushida did have her own internal organs paining, meaning that she will not scale to it anyhow.

It's quite literally a PIS (Plot-Induced Stupidity) aside from the reasons I mentioned before (basically luck factor, but yes, when you look at it, it's highly impossible), so it isn't even worth a nitpick. What I mean is that Kushida not dying there is quite literally just for plot convenience.

Even if the attack was not 1.2 MJ, the scaling chain Ichika has above Kushida is actually still too much that she should have died (or get knocked out) there either way. It's basically not worth an argument like this.

 

[MCH2]

This is an understatement. "Merely in pain"

She was neither knocked cold nor actually injured. You can use as much flowerly language as you want to describe her pain.

We even have a picture of the Great Kushida after she tanked 1.2 MJ punch. we know this picture is after the punch from the dialogue shown.

What a monster Kushida is.

It’s not plot induced stupidity. It’s a fundamentally wrong calc producing a result that’s nonsensical for the verse. The whole premise of it is wrong, even if the math might be correct.

 

[RoggerReggor]

She was neither knocked cold nor actually injured. You can use as much flowerly language as you want to describe her pain.

We even have a picture of the Great Kushida after she tanked 1.2 MJ punch. we know this picture is after the punch from the dialogue shown.

What a monster Kushida is.

It’s not plot induced stupidity. It’s a fundamentally wrong calc producing a result that’s nonsensical for the verse. The whole premise of it is wrong, even if the math might be correct.

How do you even expect to see some internal bleeding statements apply to literally an external showing? My point still stands.

Kushida still described important details about the aftermaths so it's not just that. My point was that it being "merely pain" is an understatement. I wouldn't have complained if you had used it with adjectives such as "intense pain" or "high amounts of pain" or anything similar, but that kind of wording seemed obviously degrading to upgrade Kushida's durability.

Also, let me tell you that the calc still wouldn't scale to Kushida's durability, you missed the point basically entirely.

My main thing is that there are many times when characters with an insanely high scaling have attacked other characters who can oneshot characters who are much above them (like Ichika-Kushida, or Housen-Suzune) which outright warrants an inverse scaling chain where these characters should be able to just oneshot kill others. It's a PIS, her durability was completely bypassed (not negated, to be noted, since Ichika doesn't have duraneg) and she was also heavily injured.

People have not died after tanking hits from a 100 km/h running bikes and there are people who died from things as minimum as just tripping on the ground (in comparison). That's the luck factor, though it might not stand here, I am just saying this to not make a complete PIS kind of thing and show how people have plot armor even IRL.

Either way, if your point is that a character like Kushida is able to tank the hit, then she isn't, she suffered internal injuries which directly says that her durability was already bypassed, so she never "tanked" it, she just took that hit and didn't suffer the worst fate sheerly due to plot convenience.

There already are examples of that. Gen 4 subjects had always been fighting instructors who would have first scaled much higher than them, and they should have killed them already as they narratively already scaled above even the highest tiers. So again, that doesn't mean Gen 4 subjects would scale to their AP values in tanking attacks (durability).

 

[MCH2]

Once again, no matter how much you twinkle the facts remain the supposedly 1.2 MJ punch couldn’t even give Kushida a concussion. That alone should cast serious doubt on the fact it was 1.2 MJ in the first place.

……

It’s different from now, when you have a 1.2 MJ punch supposedly and you’re trying to have one way (Ichika’s punch is 1.2 MJ) while brushing aside the uncomfortable implications (Kushida can tank the 1.2 MJ punch).

You can cry PiS all you want, but the punch was not 1.2 MJ or even an order of magnitude close to that. I doubt it was even wall.

The calc is both wrong and inconsistent with the verse. Should be rejected.

I already made my point so it’s my last response.

 

[RoggerReggor]

Once again, no matter how much you twinkle the facts remain the supposedly 1.2 MJ punch couldn’t even give Kushida a concussion. That alone should cast serious doubt on the fact it was 1.2 MJ in the first place.



It’s different from now, when you have a 1.2 MJ punch supposedly and you’re trying to have one way (Ichika’s punch is 1.2 MJ) while brushing aside the uncomfortable implications (Kushida can tank the 1.2 MJ punch).

You can cry PiS all you want, but the punch was not 1.2 MJ or even an order of magnitude close to that. I doubt it was even wall.

The calc is both wrong and inconsistent with the verse. Should be rejected.

I already made my point so it’s my last response.

Ok, so I am actually now under an obvious assumption that you never got my point. I am not "crying PIS", I am literally reasoning with PIS, for something which you have failed to foreordain the eventuality of, and are therefore too busy in squandering your and my time over this debate.

The funny thing is that you will never be able to use Kushida's consciousness even after the feat as actual main evidence to debunk the essence of the feat, but at the very best, use it to a secondary reason which will never be the best reasoning possible. While I will acknowledge that you had actually put in other points, this happened to be the main point of your argument.

The reason behind this is that your entire debunk is based upon an assumption of "Kushida cannot have a durability which is slightly lower than Ichika's attack." or something like "Kushida cannot survive anything that high because she can never have durability that high.", if you believed the otherwise, i.e., Kushida can have a durability which is in that region, which is supportable since Kushida doesn't have any actual solid anti-feats against this, meaning that if Ichika's attack was to be actually accepted as 1 MJ, then by pure logic and everything you put before, Kushida would basically downscale that value but in durability. Now, that would be a major drawback since Kushida would get STUPIDLY OVERRATED. Just to prevent that, we use PIS since the attack actually completely bypassed Kushida's durability and actually caused internal injuries to her. Conclusion? The attack would not completely scale to Kushida's durability. But by logic, if it happened, then the rest of the energy should have crushed Kushida's head into a tortilla, which didn't happen, but should have since Ichika bypassed the durability, and therefore, would need only the amount of energy left which is needed to crush the skull, which should be easy for her even in her current profile and stats.

So yes, your entire point which is just based on your own theory of it being impossible for Kushida to be rated that high and therefore the feat shouldn't exist gets ruled out. You can only use that as a secondary reason. My stance remains with Dino's and other points being much more valid than this for an actual debunk if it were to happen. Using your own outright character downplays as reasons for debunks is not the best thing to do.

My reason for regarding it as PIS is merely to not entertain a Kushida overrating, not to support this feat in any way. If the premise is satisfied, then this feat would get validated either way, the only question would be Kushida's scaling then, which should never be overrated to that insanely high level, and can then, debunked with the reasons being PIS.

With that, I will close this argument chain from my side for now.

 

[MCH2]

The funny thing is that you will never be able to use Kushida's consciousness even after the feat as actual main evidence to debunk

That’s not the main evidence, I already said the very foundation of the feat is wrong. It’s a wrong Calc from inception. The assumption it’s built upon, that Kushida hit the ground before the sound, is wrong. First, in Kushida’s monologue the sound comes first. Second, delayed processing easily explains it. And Voila, the “feat” evaporates.

Additionally, yes a fodder tanking a supposed 1.2 MJ punch raises doubts about the calc. Furthermore, a calc producing a nonsensical outlier results for a verse is relevant in assessing whether or not it should be accepted.

And for the record, Ichika getting a 1.2 MJ AP result is also problematic given how many characters would get scaled slightly below her, above her or vastly above her. Thus the verse as a whole gets upscaled many orders of magnitude higher AP than before and retroactively adds plot holes of characters failing to do things even a fraction of their supposed AP would permit. it’s not just Kushida being high into wall level durable. (Assuming 1.2 MJ is that).

Advise: learn conciseness.

 

[RoggerReggor]

Everything which you said is just your own interpretation.

She felt her vision get fussy/distorted (which is quite literally a result of a sudden FOV change from facing horizontally ahead to vertically upwards). For your interpretation to be correct, you would need to say that Kushida was actively processing the entire fall even when her not being able to perceive it is the obvious thing.

Again, I will mention that I didn't ignore those points, I merely put them aside because they were repeated even in general COTE debates before.

About your Ichika-Suzune scaling, it has been already pointed out about how you are basically in a slim minority who actually believes things like Suzune and Ibuki being actually close to Ichika in fighting abilities (even though it is verbally stated that Ichika could win the fight based on her strength alone and it doesn't even include her skills or techniques, with the adverb "easily" suggesting a low diff at max, and it was against both Suzune and Ibuki) and you also believe Ryuuen > Ichika in AP. It's basically bad to argue that with Zetsu who doesn't believe you in that scaling chain either and he was there in our debate about that topic.

We have already shared our that version of scaling chains. I commented on it in the verse General Discussion long time ago as well when those scans were shared and it wasn't anything like anyone actually believing in them for real.

 

[MCH2]

Blah blah

For the record, everything Rogger stated is a fabrication and a lie regarding both what I believe and what the series says.

Respectfully, I don’t want to debate with you. This thread is dead, the calc is wrong, and it should be rejected. Stop with the verbose nonsense.

 

[XxZetsuxX]

For the record, everything Rogger stated is a fabrication and a lie regarding both what I believe and what the series says.

Respectfully, I don’t want to debate with you. This thread is dead, the calc is wrong, and it should be rejected. Stop with the verbose nonsense.

Calling it a fabrication and lie just because you don't agree is wild ngl

 

[MCH2]

Calling it a fabrication and lie just because you don't agree is wild ngl

it’s both. Nothing he said accurately reflects what I think in anyway. it’s one mischaracterization after another presented dishonestly. I don’t have a problem with what he thinks, he can believe what he wants to be, but to present what I think so dishonestly and falsely is another mater.

 

[RoggerReggor]

it’s both. Nothing he said accurately reflects what I think in anyway. it’s one mischaracterization after another presented dishonestly. I don’t have a problem with what he thinks, he can believe what he wants to be, but to present what I think so dishonestly and falsely is another mater.

You are making something "I think in any way" kind of thing which literally pertains to only your opinion as something which you think is factual in general and calling my arguments as just fabrication and deception.

It's not just me, there are many scalers who have a very similar opinion to mine.

It's basically just you now. I could have very easily quoted your one post and trolled it as anything, but again, nobody deserves anything of that sort.

I am always ready to explain my point, if you are ready to continue it.

Almost two scalers agree with my point who both have scalable knowledge of the verse.

You scale completely differently, i.e., taking only narratives, while I scale in a manner where feats can be justified using narratives. You scale like in Narratives Scaling with a mix of intuition and I scale in Proven Ability.

We scale differently. I have already tried to co-exist with your mannerisms for a while and had even deeply reflected on what was wrong with it, while you had tremendously failed to do so. Now, I will stop here if you are going to do nothing except for just purely assertive approach.

I respect you as a scaler for having your own opinion, just note that, and I don't mean to humiliate nor mock you in any way through this.

Thanks.

 

[MCH2]

Once again, my issue is with your misrepresentation of my views, not yours. Very precisely, Ichika and Ibuki are close in physical ability, but not in fighting ability as you presented, this is due to a literal statement.

I’m not accusing you of lying about your beliefs; I’m pointing out that you’re misrepresenting mine quite egregiously.

Given your excessive verbosity and how unproductive our discussions have been in the past, I prefer to avoid debating you in settings without strict limits on responses (staff threads). I absolutely do not want to argue with you any further.

 

[RoggerReggor]

Once again, my issue is with your misrepresentation of my views, not yours. Very precisely, Ichika and Ibuki are close in physical ability, but not in fighting ability as you presented, this is due to a literal statement.

I’m not accusing you of lying about your beliefs; I’m pointing out that you’re misrepresenting mine quite egregiously.

Given your excessive verbosity and how unproductive our discussions have been in the past, I prefer to avoid debating you in settings without strict limits on responses (staff threads). I absolutely do not want to argue with you any further.

I have already given enough evidence from Y2V4 regarding how the fight between them, even when Ichika was stupidly nerfed and Suzune/Ibuki just a little, it was verbatim stated that Ichika could easily fight and subdue both of them at once upon her strength alone.

I know Suzune severely lacks the analytical abilities which Kiyotaka possesses, but either way, the argument that Suzune cannot just analyze someone's strength is just a bad one. Suzune is not blind, she felt the pain, and she even compared that pain to that of Housen's. Housen is verbatim stated to be massively above Ryuuen in almost all aspects (not battle intelligence because Ryuuen has a direct statement for it which puts him above). Also, Ichika was attacking faster than Suzune could realize (doesn't matter if you believe it or not, there's an outright statement of Suzune trying to make sense of Ichika's attacks and her even saying something along the lines of that she was able to realize what happened, but she doesn't know it precisely about what really happened).

There are examples of Kiyotaka lying in the series, giving a fake analysis and getting away with it.

Just because this statement is much after Kiyotaka has actually lowered the frequency of doing so, it doesn't mean this narrative is a direct statement.

The canon material itself points towards the difference between them being much higher than just 20%, hell, even Suzune and Ibuki believed that Ichika was better than what Kiyotaka suggested.

You forgot to even mention that you scale differently, and that, you use narratives scaling and believe narratives > feats for every case. With that, of course, your point would stand. But afaik, even VSBW doesn't actually happen to be scaled like that. You can invalidate narratives if they do not make sense with what else is displayed in the series.

Also, I saw that there are actually people who think that I am basically just framing this (on Discord) because I want this feat to stay valid and that, I came up with it just to suit this feat. Well, this thread was made on 23 May 2024, and I had the idea/opinion of Kiyotaka's statement being wrong from 10 March 2024, much before (literally more than 3 months) the thread was made, and much before the feat was even calculated like suggested in the thread.

 

[MCH2]

Bla bla

Once again, my issue is with your misrepresentation of my views, not yours. you don’t get to present what I believe disingenuously and falsely and then argue against the strawman.

For the record, you’re completely wrong here. However, as I said I have no interest debating you at all in any context that isn’t reply limited. So stop the overly verbose responses.

Furthermore, this isn’t even the point of this thread. Regarding the original calc, the point of this thread, as I’ve noted here this calc is completely wrong and should be rejected. Rogger argues in favor of the feat in his posts that followed the one I linked.

 

[RoggerReggor]

1. Kushida is challenged by Ichika to a fight, not a challenge but Ichika makes it clear that she was going to punch Kushida.
2. Kushida is punched by Ichika. This is indicated when Kushida notes that her vision started getting distorted suddenly. (I will come back to this, but just remember that Kushida never clearly registered what happened with her but only felt her vision getting distorted, without there being any signs of anything else.
3. Kushida narrates that the sound of her cheek getting punched came later on.
4. Kushida tells the reader that before she knew "it", she was already looking up at the cloudy, overcast sky. This suggests that she was lying horizontally on the ground at that point. (Highlighted "it" for explanations)

Kushida said before she knew "it", now, there's a variety of possibilities of what this "it" means, but here, even if to lowball, we were to apply this to the sentence very ahead of it, it would mean that Kushida was already laying on the ground before that sound came.

Now, the brain does link senses, a phenomenon called as linking of senses or senses integration, meaning that all your senses are added with a natural delay to have all your senses work as in real time. While I did give my own views on this and use a 5 ms addition of a timeframe, I do not actually think it is really necessary but it's cool, I guess.

That explains the "distortion" of vision which Kushida experienced as well, which mainly took place through her sudden changing of the FOV (from seeing horizontally to up ahead) which is normal and can occur very easily, but it is obviously not Kushida's eyes being covered with blood at that moment, no she wasn't dying already.

The thing here is that we already know this, and we are trying to make sense of how the delay arose. The opposition thinks that the delay arose because of delay in senses because Kushida was in a momentary daze (again, it is not mentioned anywhere, neither does Kushida happen to be in a daze in any time near and is even said to have active thinking in the feat itself). We are waiting for an anime adaptation for the same. The feat is already an FTE feat and would scale high enough for the current state of the verse already even through a lowball, we are just trying to make the best of the feat without rushing it, that's it. There are no textbook-level problems in the feat interpretation itself, mainly about how it happened.

 

[Dinozxd]

Wasn't this topic already handled? What's the point of reviving this thread after months passed over it's rejection?

 

[RoggerReggor]

rejection?

I wouldn't say that, we just paused it, it's on hold for better words tbh.

 

[Dinozxd]

Overall I'm not sure if this is actually a supersonic punch feat and not just the character being dazed like a normal person after being hit.

Its a delay in reactions. Its why most people are stunned after being struck by something they didn't expect or a particularly hard blow.

Sure, but that can be accomplished by the other person's arm travelling a supersonic velocity and not the person hit. In addition to the feat not being noted as fast and being over 100x the current scaled rating.

People in car wrecks remember nothing until after the wreck is over due to force trauma. Being dazed after being hit isn't a supporting piece of evidence for their body moving at mach 1 velocities.

The interp that the calc uses got rejected like 3 times by a mod in seperate replies. Don't think anything was paused here but you do you ig

 

[XxZetsuxX]

The interp that the calc uses got rejected like 3 times by a mod in seperate replies. Don't think anything was paused here but you do you ig

A CRT needs 2 staff opinions and we only have 1, So yes, This is paused rn

 

[RoggerReggor]

The interp that the calc uses got rejected like 3 times by a mod in seperate replies. Don't think anything was paused here but you do you ig

If you were to focus on Qawsedf's words, he made it clear on the first one itself that he wasn't too sure, instead of delivering an outright judgment on the matter.

What even is the problem with simply pausing this and waiting for the anime adaptation? What worse outcome will it lead to? No one's desperate here to just debate it upon the currently available evidence or stuff like that. Yeah, you would need to wait for like a year or so, but again, the world isn't really ending in that time, I believe.

 

[Dinozxd]

If you were to focus on Qawsedf's words, he made it clear on the first one itself that he wasn't too sure, instead of delivering an outright judgment on the matter.

His last two comments then? Those are straight up rejections.

What Zetsu said is true though. We need 2 staff opinions for a concrete acceptance or rejection, so I'll not push for this any further.

What even is the problem with simply pausing this and waiting for the anime adaptation? What worse outcome will it lead to? No one's desperate here to just debate it upon the currently available evidence or stuff like that. Yeah, you would need to wait for like a year or so, but again, the world isn't really ending in that time, I believe.

I didn't know this was how we would continue the thread. If that's the case, then pausing it is fine I guess.

 

[RoggerReggor]

I didn't know this was how we would continue the thread. If that's the case, then pausing it is fine I guess.

We just need to see if Kushida was actually attentive of Ichika or not in that scene, wouldn't be a very hard thing tbh. With that proven, we can just put in the natural sense integration timeframe if that's the thing we arrive at, I believe.

 

[Dinozxd]

We just need to see if Kushida was actually attentive of Ichika or not in that scene, wouldn't be a very hard thing tbh. With that proven, we can just put in the natural sense integration timeframe if that's the thing we arrive at, I believe.

I don't see this feat being anything more than a FTE feat if the anime doesn't pull a "Kushida did actually fall faster than sound" scene or something tbh.

natural sense integration timeframe

I don't get this though. Isn't this just blitzing ur opponent?

 

[RoggerReggor]

I don't see this feat being anything more than a FTE feat if the anime doesn't pull a "Kushida did actually fall faster than sound" scene or something tbh.

Of course, not FTS but still enough speed to create a delay of sound, even by some points.

I don't get this though. Isn't this just blitzing ur opponent?

Yes, it is blitzing your opponent, but with contexts behind the correct speed, I guess.

 

[Dinozxd]

Of course, not FTS but still enough speed to create a delay of sound, even by some points.

Eh. I would pass on the "delay in sound" stuff if it's not clearly stated, as even the narrator in these kinds of situations can give false info. Narrators' ability to narrate is mostly capped to their ability to percieve stuff, and percieving sound to come with a delay wouldn't exactly be a "creating a delay in sound".

Also, making a delay in sound and being FTS are basically the same thing, no?

 

[RoggerReggor]

Eh. I would pass on the "delay in sound" stuff if it's not clearly stated, as even the narrator in these kinds of situations can give false info. Narrators' ability to narrate is mostly capped to their ability to percieve stuff, and percieving sound to come with a delay wouldn't exactly be a "creating a delay in sound".

It's clearly stated "the sound came later", cannot be clearer than that.

And about the narrator limitations, it's obvious, but at the same time, it is more related with the "problem"s narrator is having, and we are already trying to get through that problem, namely being a "daze".

Also, making a delay in sound and being FTS are basically the same thing, no?

No. Sometimes, you might take the shorter route than sound and reach before sound and then, there would be a delay in sound. An example would be a house in which there are sound-proof walls (not absorbers, only sound insulations) and sound has to move by diffraction while you can reach at the spots with minimal speeds.

Though, it is somehow different here and vice versa, the center of mass definitely may not be FTS.

 

[MCH2]

It's clearly stated "the sound came later", cannot be clearer than that.

I think it’s came later than her vision being fuzzy, not came later than her hitting the ground.

“I felt my vision get all distorted and fuzzy (1). The sound of my cheek getting punched came later (2). Before I knew it, I was looking up at the cloudy, overcast sky. (3)”

Vision distorted (1) => Sound (2) => Hit the ground (3).

And the narrator here is Kushida, we’re reading her monologue clearly.

I’d imagine anime will give us a feat through pixel and frame scaling. I don’t think it will be through this line.

 

[Dinozxd]

It's clearly stated "the sound came later", cannot be clearer than that.

"The sound came later" most probably refers to Kushida hearing the sound later rather than her actually outspeeding sound while falling down.

It might also refer to Kushida's ears ring, as that may also make her think that the sound actually came later. Like I said, It's not like the narrator is omniscient here.

And about the narrator limitations, it's obvious, but at the same time, it is more related with the "problem"s narrator is having, and we are already trying to get through that problem, namely being a "daze".

I mean, is Kushida being dazed from the hit a question? Like any character in fiction who gets blitzed, it's normal for her to be dazed in a situation where she gets blitzed. I don't get why we're waiting for the anime, exactly.

No. Sometimes, you might take the shorter route than sound and reach before sound and then, there would be a delay in sound. An example would be a house in which there are sound-proof walls (not absorbers, only sound insulations) and sound has to move by diffraction while you can reach at the spots with minimal speeds.

Though, it is somehow different here and vice versa, the center of mass definitely may not be FTS.

I understand.

 

[RoggerReggor]

I mean, is Kushida being dazed from the hit a question? Like any character in fiction who gets blitzed, it's normal for her to be dazed in a situation where she gets blitzed. I don't get why we're waiting for the anime, exactly.

It depends on how much does a blitz daze affect on-the-spot senses, and I am pretty sure we are not wanking Kushida's processing speed to the level where she is able to process stuff faster than even her visual cortex can.

And about everything else, I don't think this is the best time to go around all the possibilities we can think of in against the feat, especially when nothing is confirmed. I am ready to wait for like a year or more for the anime interpretations lol, even though I probably do not know whether I will be on this site for that long or not, it depends on whether you are or not.

 

[Dinozxd]

It depends on how much does a blitz daze affect on-the-spot senses, and I am pretty sure we are not wanking Kushida's processing speed to the level where she is able to process stuff faster than even her visual cortex can.

It's not about specifically about the "blitz daze" affect. It's more about the secondary affects of getting blitzed/dazed/concussed.

And about everything else, I don't think this is the best time to go around all the possibilities we can think of in against the feat, especially when nothing is confirmed. I am ready to wait for like a year or more for the anime interpretations lol,

I guess. I'm just tryna interpret the LN version of the feat for now.

it depends on whether you are or not.

Well, you never know