Classroom Of The Elite - Speed and AP upgrade

[Zefra3011]

Why would it be valid? You're on a positive claim and haven't proven why it's valid, I'm questioning the validity of Kinetic Energy for this feat, I don't have to prove its invalid, this is just shifting the burden of proof fallacy.

Speed can be used to find KE when:

An object moves at said speed due to the secondary effects of an attack.

KE is fine for those feats, we were discussing if it's invalid or not because of the crater point.

 

[Vzearr]

KE is fine for those feats, we were discussing if it's invalid or not because of the crater point.

Speed cannot be used to find KE when​

• The calculated kinetic energy value is heavily inconsistent with the rest of the cast in the series.

Case in point, the size difference between 4 Kj and 1200 Kj is 300x, more then enough to be classed as "heavily inconsistent" (Also, why the hell are random calculations on the page when they require content revision threads to be added?)

 

[RoggerReggor]

Case in point, the size difference between 4 Kj and 1200 Kj is 300x, more then enough to be classed as "heavily inconsistent"

You are using completely different points, what you mentioned for "The calculated kinetic energy value is heavily inconsistent with the rest of the cast in the series" is for calculating a character's AP via their own KE through their own speed, like if a character was moving at 50 m/s and if a person were to find that person's KE (assuming the character mass as 50 kg), and put the character AP as 0.5*50*50*50 = 62500 J (which is not applicable in powerscaling unless you were to prove that the said verse happens to go linearly with KE and speed-squared), what is happening here is that Ichika is smacking a person hard enough to set them into motion, we are not deriving Ichika's AP through the KE of her own, but rather the AP of her attack by finding the KE possessed by Kushida's body (which would be set in motion only if she was to be attacked), which is completely fine to be used.

A massively hypersonic character can have street level AP and vice versa, a mountain level character can have human level speed (unless someone were to prove a complete conversion of speed with KE to AP, which is like impossible in 99% of the verses).

(Also, why the hell are random calculations on the page when they require content revision threads to be added?)

Calculations can be used, their additions to profiles (when they are actually debatable) require CRTs. So yeah, we don't currently have a single profile using those statistics, so rest easy.

 

[Vzearr]

You are using completely different point, what you mentioned for "The calculated kinetic energy value is heavily inconsistent with the rest of the cast in the series" is for calculating a character's AP via their own KE through their own speed, like if a character was moving at 50 m/s and if a person were to find that person's KE (assuming the character mass as 50 kg), and put the character AP as 0.5*50*50*50 = 62500 J (which is not applicable in powerscaling unless you were to prove that the said verse happens to go linearly with KE and speed-squared), what is happening here is that Ichika is smacking a person hard enough to set them into motion, we are not deriving Ichika's AP through the KE of her own, but rather the AP of her attack by finding the KE possessed by Kushida's body (which would be set in motion only if she was to be attacked), which is completely fine to be used.

A massively hypersonic character can have street level AP and vice versa, a mountain level character can have human level speed (unless someone were to prove a complete conversion of speed with KE to AP, which is like impossible in 99% of the verses).

None of this has any relevancy to what I was saying.

 

[Zefra3011]

Case in point, the size difference between 4 Kj and 1200 Kj is 300x, more then enough to be classed as "heavily inconsistent" (Also, why the hell are random calculations on the page when they require content revision threads to be added?)

There is a 49 kj feat even tho it's durability which would make this new calc only 25x higher.

Also the 4kj feat is from a Low tier while this new calc is from a God tier.

 

[RoggerReggor]

None of this has any relevancy to what I was saying.

Uh, no.

What you used from Kinetic Energy Feats is this point:

• The calculated kinetic energy value is heavily inconsistent with the rest of the cast in the series. EX: Quicksilver's calculated speed cannot be used to derive kinetic energy as it heavily contradicts his established power levels.

What we are currently discussing is this point:

• There is a destruction/AP calculation contradicting a kinetic energy calculation. The destruction/AP calculation would take priority over the kinetic energy calculation in this case as the AP calculation would be a better proof in regards to how much damage he/she is capable of in an attack.
  • For example, if a character launches a 200kg metal ball against a common wall at Mach 300, but the wall remains largely undamaged, the energy required to cause the minor damage on the wall would take priority over the kinetic energy derived from speed in this case.

Also, the thing we are currently discussing doesn't involve heavy KE upon destruction differences.

So yeah, what you are arguing is about the verse's being inconsistent with KE, which is the story with like 99.99% of the fiction (and I wouldn't disagree with that).

There is a 49 kj feat even tho it's durability which would make this new calc only 25x higher.

Also the 4kj feat is from a Low tier while this new calc is from a God tier.

Yes, moreover, the character who performed the 49 kJ feat was doing it solely for the purpose of entertainment, and the 4 kJ calc is like the energy needed to just vibrate an elevator by Ibuki, the same girl is mentioned to be able to put a large dent in the elevator wall, and it depends upon sizes as well.

Like consider this calc from Reality Quest, it shows a character putting a large dent in the elevator wall, which ranged to 12.7 MJ, while I am in no way saying that the COTE verse should also scale to the same value, I am basically implying that the limit of the verse is not what is being used to justify the currently-being-discussed calculation as an outlier. And yeah, if Ibuki did put up a decently large dent (like the one in the calc I mentioned), it would scale to low tiers of the verse, considering how she herself is a low-tier to begin with.

 

[Dinozxd]

She isn't dazed, she was literally alerted that she was going to get punched.
She was literally looking out for a punch, "Punch?" basically, goes to show that.

Getting dazed delays your reaction, or sometimes, you might not notice sounds at all.

I remember the older debate with Agnaa where he basically put up the same points, but his points were different, his points were that Kushida was dazed so she didn't notice the sound, and there, we were debating about a completely different feat, which is this:

Here, she didn't even realize that there was a sound, so one can actually argue at least here that she was "dazed" so she would actually fail to sense the sound, but in the scene which we are currently discussing, Kushida looks 100% active (she's even made aware that she's going to get punched), and she basically tells the reader about her sensing the sound and the other information, which is actually the character narration, character narrations are on-the-spot feelings of the characters, without them being forgetful (because they describe the words of each and every character too accurately, and otherwise they would all have photographic memories lol).

Idk how you interpreted the fact that Kushida said "Punch?" in a surprised manner supports her being active in this scene.

Even her saying "Did I just get punched in the face?" after she fell on the ground explains how she wasn't alerted of a punch and didn't know she was gonna get punched. She was dazed from the strength and speed of the punch, which is why she heard the sound of it later.

 

[Emirccano]

Even her saying "Did I just get punched in the face?" after she fell on the ground explains how she wasn't alerted of a punch and didn't know she was gonna get punched. She was dazed from the strength and speed of the punch, which is why she heard the sound of it later.

Kushida was already alert and didn't even take his eyes off out of fear. So she was waiting every moment because she was afraid of Ichika.
"Did I just get punched in the face?" was an interrogation because she didn't even see the punch or the ichika's movement. If she were dazed, she would only be preoccupied with himself rather than the sound delay. First of all, she even felt her pain late.

 

[RoggerReggor]

Idk how you interpreted the fact that Kushida said "Punch?" in a surprised manner supports her being active in this scene.

Yes. She is made aware of the fact that she is going to get punched, the first thing which would come out to a person's mind would be to be alerted for the punch. And she tried to react to it for some times, I sent a scan of her looking out for the punch before this feat (to prove that she was fine before it happened), and after this feat (to prove that she was fine after it happened), the thing worthful to say is that both of them happen to be actually right before this feat, and right after this feat respectively (PROOF), so she was attentive before the feat, and even right after the feat, it is basically now your assumption that she gets in a daze just in between of these two states where she was actually very active, even after being made aware of the fact that she was going to get punched.

Even her saying "Did I just get punched in the face?" after she fell on the ground explains how she wasn't alerted of a punch and didn't know she was gonna get punched. She was dazed from the strength and speed of the punch, which is why she heard the sound of it later.

It doesn't. It shows more of her being blitzed than her being unaware of the things around her. Being in a daze doesn't cause your senses to get delayed. This is just saying that your body impulses would travel at a slower rate, or the chemical reactions and enzymes would work at a slower rate, or sound waves (even after being amplified by the ear ossicles) would propagate along the chemicals in the auditory nerves or the cochlea slower.

Being dazed affects your conscious thinking. Being dazed is just being unable to think or react properly, it has no relations with sensing things. Like when someone is dazed, you can call out to them, and you might not notice, it is not related with your sound reaching to them later, you will still have to call them again.

 

[RoggerReggor]

I am sorry, I was trying to search for it on Google, but it repeatedly showed me random stories and stuff. So, I just went to one-step solution of using ChatGPT.

So yeah, even in a dazed situation, the senses are not delayed, just interpreting them is. Processing/Interpreting the sensory information is very different from just sensing it. Processing it is like, when you hear to a person, just sensing their voice and being able to hear it is sensing, but then your brain tries to interpret that information (like trying to interpret the language and the meaning they are trying to convey, and then think of a reply to that), that, of course would be delayed, as it is something which needs to be consciously done by you. Both aren't related.

Going to this scene, I don't think I need to prove whether Kushida was dazed or not, as all she needs to do is basically just sense the sound, and then tell the reader about it. And the thing is, she doesn't need to process a smack, of course, as it has no information in itself.

 

[XxZetsuxX]

Case in point, the size difference between 4 Kj and 1200 Kj is 300x, more then enough to be classed as "heavily inconsistent" (Also, why the hell are random calculations on the page when they require content revision threads to be added?)

Stop bringing the same excuse of "Not on the profile, Not valid", Didn't i tell you the verse is outdated and that i'm working on it?

Are you mocking me by any chance?

I don't need to update the verse in order, If i want to start with the high tiers, I will do so, If i want to start with the low tiers, I will do so, Got it?

 

[RoggerReggor]

Stop bringing the same excuse of "Not on the profile, Not valid", Didn't i tell you the verse is outdated and that i'm working on it?

Are you mocking me by any chance?

I don't need to update the verse in order, If i want to start with the high tiers, I will do so, If i want to start with the low tiers, I will do so, Got it?

War.

 

[ODMvZfr]

Stop bringing the same excuse of "Not on the profile, Not valid", Didn't i tell you the verse is outdated and that i'm working on it?

Are you mocking me by any chance?

I don't need to update the verse in order, If i want to start with the high tiers, I will do so, If i want to start with the low tiers, I will do so, Got it?

Ayo chill bro chill.

 

[XxZetsuxX]

Ayo chill bro chill.

I am XD, But he just keeps bringing the same thing after i told him that the verse was outdated

 

[Dinozxd]

Kushida was already alert and didn't even take his eyes off out of fear. So she was waiting every moment because she was afraid of Ichika.

That doesn't mean she didn't take a punch she couldn't react to/see.

"Did I just get punched in the face?" was an interrogation because she didn't even see the punch or the ichika's movement. If she were dazed, she would only be preoccupied with himself rather than the sound delay. First of all, she even felt her pain late.

I don't really get your argument here but pain isn't relevant. A strong punch would cause your brain to shake and stun you. It's not the pain that will daze you, it's the effects of the punch.

Yes. She is made aware of the fact that she is going to get punched, the first thing which would come out to a person's mind would be to be alerted for the punch. And she tried to react to it for some times, I sent a scan of her looking out for the punch before this feat (to prove that she was fine before it happened), and after this feat (to prove that she was fine after it happened), the thing worthful to say is that both of them happen to be actually right before this feat, and right after this feat respectively (PROOF), so she was attentive before the feat, and even right after the feat, it is basically now your assumption that she gets in a daze just in between of these two states where she was actually very active, even after being made aware of the fact that she was going to get punched.

It doesn't matter if she was even alerted before. She couldn't see the punch she took according to the feat, which fully justifies her getting stunned and dazed. I don't get how her already getting slapped by Ichika changes the fact that she got blitzed with the punch.

It doesn't. It shows more of her being blitzed than her being unaware of the things around her. Being in a daze doesn't cause your senses to get delayed. This is just saying that your body impulses would travel at a slower rate, or the chemical reactions and enzymes would work at a slower rate, or sound waves (even after being amplified by the ear ossicles) would propagate along the chemicals in the auditory nerves or the cochlea slower.

Being dazed affects your conscious thinking. Being dazed is just being unable to think or react properly, it has no relations with sensing things. Like when someone is dazed, you can call out to them, and you might not notice, it is not related with your sound reaching to them later, you will still have to call them again.

She just reacted to the sound of her getting punched later bruh...

Going to this scene, I don't think I need to prove whether Kushida was dazed or not, as all she needs to do is basically just sense the sound, and then tell the reader about it. And the thing is, she doesn't need to process a smack, of course, as it has no information in itself.

Characters in novels are limited by their perpective and perceptions while narrating a scene which can be applicable to this scene as well. Kushida saying that the voice came later doesn't mean she outsped sound, it just means that she heard the sound later.

 

[RoggerReggor]

It doesn't matter if she was even alerted before. She couldn't see the punch she took according to the feat, which fully justifies her getting stunned and dazed. I don't get how her already getting slapped by Ichika changes the fact that she got blitzed with the punch.

This is just getting bad, she is completely processing things, her vision was alright, she was consciously thinking about things, she even felt stuff, I don't know why we are making assumptions of her being dazed in the first place, but alright, I guess.

Either way, being dazed or not, sensing is not related with processing information, she just needs to sense the sound and tell the reader about it.

She just reacted to the sound of her getting punched later bruh...

She didn't even react to the sound, reacting to sound would be doing some movement or generating a response in response to the sound. Like if someone were to scream right behind your ear, you would get scares and jump from your place, that jumping from your place is what is reaction, again, I get you are still using the fact of her reacting to sound as a thing, reaction and sensing is different.

Characters in novels are limited by their perpective and perceptions while narrating a scene which can be applicable to this scene as well. Kushida saying that the voice came later doesn't mean she outsped sound, it just means that she heard the sound later.

The thing is, the smack happened only once, so how is she even hearing the sound later?

She literally just needs to sense the sound and tell the reader about it, that is enough, or more than enough to tell that there was a delay in sound.

 

[Dinozxd]

This is just getting bad, she is completely processing things, her vision was alright, she was consciously thinking about things, she even felt stuff, I don't know why we are making assumptions of her being dazed in the first place, but alright, I guess.

Either way, being dazed or not, sensing is not related with processing information, she just needs to sense the sound and tell the reader about it.

She didn't even react to the sound, reacting to sound would be doing some movement or generating a response in response to the sound. Like if someone were to scream right behind your ear, you would get scares and jump from your place, that jumping from your place is what is reaction, again, I get you are still using the fact of her reacting to sound as a thing, reaction and sensing is different.

The thing is, the smack happened only once, so how is she even hearing the sound later?

She literally just needs to sense the sound and tell the reader about it, that is enough, or more than enough to tell that there was a delay in sound.

I'll just end up repeating my reply above if i consider this a reply and answer back so

 

[RoggerReggor]

I'll just end up repeating my reply above if i consider this a reply and answer back so

Are you literally still going upon the assumption that she legit needs to react to the sound to actually say that there was a delay? Reaction and sensing is a different thing. I am quite skeptical about that, because you did mention the word "reacted" in your past reply. Still, it is your choice.

 

[MorrisHatesYou]

I'm extremely critical of one part presented here, might raise my concern when a mod comments on the thread.

Anyways, lemme summon the best COTE scaler
@Shiroyashaaa I SUMMON YOU

 

[XxZetsuxX]

I scale Reggor higher

 

[Vzearr]

There is a 49 kj feat even tho it's durability which would make this new calc only 25x higher.

Also the 4kj feat is from a Low tier while this new calc is from a God tier.

Well. No... Ichika and Kushida are both below Koenji. Durability also doesn't equate to attack potency, its still incredibly inconsistent.

Stop bringing the same excuse of "Not on the profile, Not valid", Didn't i tell you the verse is outdated and that i'm working on it?

Are you mocking me by any chance?

I don't need to update the verse in order, If i want to start with the high tiers, I will do so, If i want to start with the low tiers, I will do so, Got it?

What are you even talking about, how the hell did I mock you? Also, why are you acting like I must accept your future changes as correct? Quite down, this was an absurd and meaningless reply that doesn't help anyone and only brings about trouble. Do not reply to this as it'll just derail the thread.

 

[XxZetsuxX]

What are you even talking about, how the hell did I mock you? Also, why are you acting like I must accept your future changes as correct? Quite down, this was an absurd and meaningless reply that doesn't help anyone and only brings about trouble. Do not reply to this as it'll just derail the thread.

I showned you scans of Suzune having ANPR and you legit said "Not on the profile therefore not valid"

And you used said argument to debunk Ichika's resistence to ANPR

This is outright the same thing

 

[XxZetsuxX]

 

[XxZetsuxX]

I believe it's pretty relevant here

 

[Vzearr]

I showned you scans of Suzune having ANPR and you legit said "Not on the profile therefore not valid"

And you used said argument to debunk Ichika's resistence to ANPR

This is outright the same thing

Stop derailing the thread.

 

[XxZetsuxX]

Stop derailing the thread.

Dismissing the proof now aren't we, Alright, I will stop

 

[Vzearr]

Dismissing the proof now aren't we, Alright, I will stop

What proof dude, the thread is about a single calc and you're yapping about anpr.

 

[ODMvZfr]

So. Is the debate about Kushida 'dazed' or not over yet?

 

[RoggerReggor]

Well. No... Ichika and Kushida are both below Koenji. Durability also doesn't equate to attack potency, its still incredibly inconsistent.

Kouenji's scaling is... complicated.

The dude has no narratives to actually scale his AP and stuff (a lot of people believe he does, but he doesn't).

He has this statement from the current volume,


Here, Ayanokouji mentioned that if it was a fight with some "specific" rules, then Kouenji would have the advantage, immediately mentioning about muscle mass and strength, basically implying that if it was only a battle of one's lifting strength, then Kouenji can have the advantage, which is acceptable due to Year 2 Volume 3 Tug-of-War feats.

Ayanokouji also mentioned "boxing", but he left all under the presumption of "if his skills were at least equal". The thing with Kouenji is that he does have a hax which allows him to basically see the physical stats of a person via just the heat emitted by their body. so, if Kouenji was confidence about beating Ayanokouji, then you could say that he definitely does (and here he is), but one more thing is that Kiyotaka is not actually dependent on muscle mass or any physicality, it was also stated in the same volume, so even Kouenji cannot possibly see the strength level of Ayanokouji. But yeah, this just helps me more to get Kouenji over Housen for real actually.

I showned you scans of Suzune having ANPR and you legit said "Not on the profile therefore not valid"

VSBW isn't a type of site which has rules of accepting anything which isn't on the profile.

So, his point stands icl, but if this was a debate done privately and didn't concern the statistics on VSBW then it might be a different thing (very different, tbh).

I'm extremely critical of one part presented here, might raise my concern when a mod comments on the thread.

Anyways, lemme summon the best COTE scaler
@Shiroyashaaa I SUMMON YOU

I scale Reggor higher

Makima and Blade (I guess) (in powerscaling) and Dax, Huntsman, Cento, Inferno, Jay (in intelligence scaling) would eat all of the ones mentioned in breakfast.

 

[Vzearr]

Kouenji's scaling is... complicated.

The dude has no narratives to actually scale his AP and stuff (a lot of people believe he does, but he doesn't).

He has this statement from the current volume,


Here, Ayanokouji mentioned that if it was a fight with some "specific" rules, then Kouenji would have the advantage, immediately mentioning about muscle mass and strength, basically implying that if it was only a battle of one's lifting strength, then Kouenji can have the advantage, which is acceptable due to Year 2 Volume 3 Tug-of-War feats.

Ayanokouji also mentioned "boxing", but he left all under the presumption of "if his skills were at least equal". The thing with Kouenji is that he does have a hax which allows him to basically see the physical stats of a person via just the heat emitted by their body. so, if Kouenji was confidence about beating Ayanokouji, then you could say that he definitely does (and here he is), but one more thing is that Kiyotaka is not actually dependent on muscle mass or any physicality, it was also stated in the same volume, so even Kouenji cannot possibly see the strength level of Ayanokouji. But yeah, this just helps me more to get Kouenji over Housen for real actually.

He still scales above Ichika and Kushida so my point(s) still stand.

 

[RoggerReggor]

He still scales above Ichika and Kushida so my point(s) still stand.

He doesn't. Ichika > Kouenji, unless Kouenji was to get a feat which scaled higher than Ichika (because right now, Kouenji has no good narratives of scaling over Ichika concretely)

Still, I would like to watch you present good proofs as to why you think that, go ahead.

 

[Vzearr]

He doesn't. Ichika > Kouenji, unless Kouenji was to get a feat which scaled higher than Ichika (because right now, Kouenji has no good narratives of scaling over Ichika concretely)

Still, I would like to watch you present good proofs as to why you think that, go ahead.

The more I think about it, is there anything that actually puts Ichika on the same level as Kouenji? Kouenji has equal strength to Ayanokouji. Kouenji is narratively comparable, if not equal to Ayanokouji however Ichika is narratively below Ayanokouji (and by a large margin).

 

[RoggerReggor]

The more I think about it, is there anything that actually puts Ichika on the same level as Kouenji? Kouenji has equal strength to Ayanokouji. Kouenji is narratively comparable, if not equal to Ayanokouji however Ichika is narratively below Ayanokouji (and by a large margin).

Kouenji has equal strength to Ayanokouji, that doesn't put the one above Ichika. The only thing Kouenji has is high probably overstatements (or maybe not), where Ayanokouji regards Kouenji as a threat, while he doesn't do the same to Ichika and Takuya, but the thing is that his statements often come from the analytical ability he possesses, which is much dependent upon a person's background, Ayanokouji knows about everything about Ichika and Takuya's background, but at the same time, he is unknown to what Kouenji does. Maximum of Kouenji statements sound more like "if" or "maybe" rather than being concrete statements deciding normal narratives.

And the thing is, I can get Kouenji above Housen without much difficulty over real proofs (and more so, through the current volume), but Housen, after V0 and more White Room reveals doesn't narratively come close to Ichika.

Ichika after taking hits from Shiba (who is, for a fact equal to a suppressed Ayanokouji) was able to still defeat two people while being in a state where people shouldn't even be able to walk. And even while being weakened, Suzune still wasn't completely sure if there actually was anyone who could face her.

 

[Vzearr]

Okay, so, what puts Ichika as comparable to Kouenji? I'm not really that knowledgeable on classroom of the elites inverse scaling.

 

[RoggerReggor]

Okay, so, what puts Ichika as comparable to Kouenji? I'm not really that knowledgeable on classroom of the elites inverse scaling.

Ichika isn't comparable to Kouenji, she's better even concrete narrative-wise, but if we go by currently accepted calcs, then Kouenji is above her. The thing is, Kouenji doesn't have concrete narratives to put him above Ichika, but again, he has none which suggest that he cannot be above Ichika, so if he gets a feat better than her, she wouldn't scale to his feat and be below him, but let's say she gets a better feat than him, then Kouenji wouldn't scale to her. That's why I said scaling Kouenji is complicated. Now, saying what is a narrative has also been somehow controversial, some people regard implications of Ayanokouji taking someone as risky as narrative, but by that logic, most of the heavily hyped characters would somehow be superior to even Ayanokouji himself, in my view, a narrative of implication can be taken as concrete, but not when it has no basis behind it. Kouenji is said to be a bigger threat than Takuya, but that's as a class pawn, which includes both physical and mental things, in which Kouenji is equally talented.

There's even a theory in COTE which says that Kouenji is from Kijima's faction in training, which is also a training program like White Room, but again, it is just a theory.

 

[XxZetsuxX]

Sure, but that can be accomplished by the other person's arm travelling a supersonic velocity and not the person hit. In addition to the feat not being noted as fast and being over 100x the current scaled rating.


People in car wrecks remember nothing until after the wreck is over due to force trauma. Being dazed after being hit isn't a supporting piece of evidence for their body moving at mach 1 velocities.

I will bump (Sorry for disturbing)

 

[Dinozxd]

I will bump (Sorry for disturbing)

He already rejected the thread like 3 times so I don't get the need to bump it again. You can always ask other thread mods if you want more opinions on the thread, not keep disturbing one mod.

 

[XxZetsuxX]

He already rejected the thread like 3 times so I don't get the need to bump it again. You can always ask other thread mods if you want more opinions on the thread, not keep disturbing one mod.

He didn't reject though? Arguing =/ Rejecting

 

[Dinozxd]

He didn't reject though? Arguing =/ Rejecting

He disagreed with the premise of the calculation, which pretty much means he rejected the CRT.

Like I said, you can always ask different thread mods for their opinion.

 

[XxZetsuxX]

He disagreed with the premise of the calculation, which pretty much means he rejected the CRT.

Like I said, you can always ask different thread mods for their opinion.

And Reggor proposed a new one which he didn't reject