Youkoso Jitsuryoku Shijou Shugi no Kyoushitsu e ability removal thread

[Dinozxd]

Can someone TLDR the arguments and counterarguments, way to much text to read.

Same

So basically, @RoggerReggor believes that the Fear Inducement feat in question causes from supernatural means (LN scan-Anime scan (feat happens at 0:27)) while the OP, me and @ThePrimalHunter are opposing that.

Rogger's arguments consist of;
1) The fear Ayanokouji induces in Hirata (the dude that gets scared in both scans) via supernatural means as he has no reason to spill his secrets through natural means.
2) The fear Ayanokouji induces in Hirata is supernatural because he doesn't just induce fear, he induces "darkness" and "terror" as well.

Opposing arguments by me and Primal;
1) The fear Ayanokoji induces in Hirata isn't done via supernatural means as Hirata is already visually in a bad mental state in the scene, so he very well has a reason to spill his secrets.
2) The "darkness and "terror" are just flowery language overexxaggarating Ayanokouji's intimidation.
3) No superpower, supernatural ability, hax, supernatural aura, etc. has been used by Ayanokouji while performing the feat which is an important requirement for Fear Manipulation, and that's why it's not supernatural.

It's worth adding that Qawsedf also agreed with the thread (except for Dura Neg) before the debate occured, here;

Reading the counter arguments, everything other than the pressure point stuff makes sense to me. So I've changed my mind and agree with removing those abilities.

For the pressure points afaik that's still limited durability negation barring an anti-feat.

 

[RoggerReggor]

No, but I just showed the feat as an example of a person being able to induce fear via natural means, but still perform feats that are very hard to perform irl.

This is becoming too long. I think you should just resist from comparing feats which are "difficult to perform IRL" to feats like Kiyotaka which are kind of impossible to perform IRL due to being heavily unrealistic.

The person still doesn't directly cause the death via fear, they just cause the heart attack which causes death.

King's causing death stuff isn't reveal, so it all comes down to how you see it. He might be doing anything and not have mentioned anything. Either way, it is unrelated to the debate.

Wtf does this have do with what I said? You still don't explode the building, you throw the grenade and the grenade explodes it. The point is how you do NOT cause the explosion directly.

I am not mentioning that, just that the source isn't mentioned and it really isn't our thing to debate it. Theorizing is a bad thing, or even worse to do. Here to stop it though before this gets too derailed now.

I mean the whole One Punch Man series is pretty much a gag series, but it doesn't mean that the feats they perform are invalid in any way.

I am not saying OPM is invalid due to being comedic, but how it can be shown like that here. I agreed with your stuff as well.

He isn't "throwing around information", he just hits his limit and Ayanokouji intimidates him to tell his secrets.

What "limit"? Even if he did, hitting your mental limit doesn't make up for a good excuse for you to reveal some information which you wouldn't do to others normally.

Cmon now. He doesn't actually send darkness in an actual sense. That's just how Hirata describes his glare. If I tell someone they have empty eyes, it doesn't actually mean that they don't have anything in their eyes.

This is just trying to compare an IRL flowery language to something what happened in the series.

You are basically ignoring the information shared by the novel in name of classifying it as flowery language but are still ready to believe that it's unrealistic. So, please don't use IRL stuff (which is "realistic" to compare to something which you agreed about being "unrealistic").

Also, Kiyotaka mentioned that he hit the nail and attacked specifically that part of his and caused him to reveal his secrets just. He could have just scared him (which may be pure intimidation), but using your darkness only to attack a specific part of a person's mentality and have them reveal specific parts of their life "as you wish" is something which is like manipulating and playing with someone's mind. Hard disagree on this one. This is a very poor attempt at classifying someone mean to be unrealistic not supernatural. It would have more probability of being flowery if it was natural, but not here, uff.

This still doesn't go aganist my stance on how it's flowery language.

(above)

That was what I was talking about... His facial expressions don't have to change that much.

His facial expressions "don't have to change that much", here, we see no change in his facial expressions howsoever.

Watching the scene again, It's obvious that Ayanokouji at least looks more intimidating when he induced fear in Hirata, than he looked before he did as the scene visually implies that. Ayanokouji also has the weird ability to be able to look normal, then look absolutely intimidating all of a sudden, so this isn't anything new.

He possesses a long face, and every time you crop his mouth out, it's natural he will look more intimidating. Want an example?

It's based on what I mentioned about scopophobia, exaggerated eyes make you look more unsettling than normal.

Like I said, being able to talk with an intimidating person normally while they don't look intimidating doesn't make their intimidation weaker nor make it supernatural in any way.

Yeah, but the main point of it being "supernatural" or "unrealistic" in the first place is how he's making someone more scared than they were in that situation (no, you cannot convince me that physical torture is less damaging than someone's eyes to get information out now, and not compare him to Ryuuen who's narratively more scary and unsettling than Kiyotaka according to most characters), and how he is perfectly attacking that part of them to reveal necessary information.

You're right here I guess. The thing is though, it's just weird for a dude who has fear inducement tries to induce fear into people via normal means, rather than using their fear inducement.

If you are talking about Ryuuen, then he himself mentioned in the planning of the X strategy that he wanted Ryuuen to give in to violence, something which Ryuuen himself loved to wield and it would serve him right for that. He really never had any reason or goal to just induce fear in others though.

I think I already talked about the flowery language part and how the anime does not depict any darkness being eroded in Hirata in any way, he simply gets scared. That's the ability. When you minus the flowery language part, this is just some good old intimidation, although it's definitely superior to normal intimidation feats.

It would be way superior to normal intimidation feats if it was just that and would be damaging on the same level as fear inducement because it just affects anyone despite their mental resilience to stuff which is depicted as way higher, but either way, it's the choice of the anime to show some "specific" aura around Kiyotaka, and an attack to the art style which is both subjective as well as not particularly wrong.

The darkness parts are just an exxaggaration and they are just written to show how intimidating Ayanokouji's eyes are.

They are not exaggeration. The exaggeration would be if he wasn't just attacking a certain part of character's mentality to have them reveal something outright and perform something this unrealistic. Flowery language would be more applicable if it was something completely natural happening there, but neither was it natural, nor is there any reason to say that it would be flowery language just to have a feat not classify as what is stated.

Also this is just bad interperation. I only stated that Instigating Fear feats as a whole can be fairly unrealistic, even though the fear gets induced via natural means every human posseses. Fear Manipulation on the other hand, has the fear induced via completely supernatural means I already gave examples on above.

I meant just the unrealistic part and not the supernatural one. I am aware you are arguing about it being natural, but you have argued about it being unrealistic at the very least.

 

[RoggerReggor]

So basically, @RoggerReggor believes that the Fear Inducement feat in question causes from supernatural means (LN scan-Anime scan (feat happens at 0:27)) while the OP, me and @ThePrimalHunter are opposing that.

Rogger's arguments consist of;
1) The fear Ayanokouji induces in Hirata (the dude that gets scared in both scans) via supernatural means as he has no reason to spill his secrets through natural means.
2) The fear Ayanokouji induces in Hirata is supernatural because he doesn't just induce fear, he induces "darkness" and "terror" as well.

Opposing arguments by me and Primal;
1) The fear Ayanokoji induces in Hirata isn't done via supernatural means as Hirata is already visually in a bad mental state in the scene, so he very well has a reason to spill his secrets.
2) The "darkness and "terror" are just flowery language overexxaggarating Ayanokouji's intimidation.
3) No superpower, supernatural ability, hax, supernatural aura, etc. has been used by Ayanokouji while performing the feat which is an important requirement for Fear Manipulation, and that's why it's not supernatural.

It's worth adding that Qawsedf also agreed with the thread (except for Dura Neg) before the debate occured, here;

Tbh it will be wrong if someone was to make a TL;DR for arguments when the debate is still in-between and is not nearing the conclusion, reaching it is far. I think we should wait for 10-15 more debate replies to basically make it good enough to make a substantiated TL;DR. It would still be only 2 pages though which is not worse.

I have made a reply to all of these points, and no, the basic thing is that comparing this to "difficult to perform IRL" is wrong. The effect was oddly specific and happened as intended by the doer and if it was not to be unnecessarily classified as natural for the cause, and the text mentioned not be unnecessarily classified as "flowery language" over little to no debate as well. Thanks.

 

[LephyrTheRevanchist]

Tbh it will be wrong if someone was to make a TL;DR for arguments when the debate is still in-between and is not nearing the conclusion, reaching it is far. I think we should wait for 10-15 more debate replies to basically make it good enough to make a substantiated TL;DR. It would still be only 2 pages though which is not worse.

I have made a reply to all of these points, and no, the basic thing is that comparing this to "difficult to perform IRL" is wrong. The effect was oddly specific and happened as intended by the doer and if it was not to be unnecessarily classified as natural for the cause, and the text mentioned not be unnecessarily classified as "flowery language" over little to no debate as well. Thanks.

This absolutely does not need that amount of spam. This is a pretty simple case.

"Does this meet the standard for supernatural fear inducement?" That's it.

 

[ThePrimalHunter]

First of all, you should put up a warning for people who go through scopophobia (the fear of being watched), considering how normal people may see it and not feel that intimidated, but people who go through that may even have a panic attack. I happen to know it because I did a presentation on phobias and causes behind them in my first year and when we were showing images which would intimidate people (and do worse to people who go through scopophobia), 2 people had panic attacks in the hall. Just that, yeah.

I'm not going to reply to the rest of this because I don't want to make this thread any longer, but I do apologize for not adding the warning on the image earlier. The warning has been added.

 

[Dinozxd]

This is becoming too long. I think you should just resist from comparing feats which are "difficult to perform IRL" to feats like Kiyotaka which are kind of impossible to perform IRL due to being heavily unrealistic.

Idk how you see the feat, but it's really not impossible to perform dude. The scene is basically Ayanokouji intimidating a dude at their limit into revealing their secrets, and the dude just comments on his eyes that are intimidating after. There's literally nothing different when you compare this to any other intimidation feat, other than the fact that Hirata just exaggarates his intimidation with the "darkness" stuff.

King's causing death stuff isn't reveal, so it all comes down to how you see it. He might be doing anything and not have mentioned anything. Either way, it is unrelated to the debate.

I just presented the feat as an example about Social Influencing feats that are highly hard to perform, even though they are from natural means. So even if the outcome of the fear Koji induces is appearently really really impossible to perform in your opinion, it's just his intimidating eyes that are doing the job, not any superpower.

What "limit"? Even if he did, hitting your mental limit doesn't make up for a good excuse for you to reveal some information which you wouldn't do to others normally.

He's very clearly not in his usual state in the scene and that's what I refered to with his "limit".

What does him not revealing information to anyone else but Koji make the ability supernatural? If I scare a person who has never been scared in his life, that doesn't mean I have Fear Manipulation.

You are basically ignoring the information shared by the novel in name of classifying it as flowery language but are still ready to believe that it's unrealistic. So, please don't use IRL stuff (which is "realistic" to compare to something which you agreed about being "unrealistic").

I will be saying this again and again, I just said that even if the effects of a fear that was induced extremely unrealistic (like terrifying a person for their life with a glare, an example I gave before,) that still doesn't change the fact that the fear causes from a natural thing, which is a glare, and the cause is what really matters here. Not the effect.

Also, Kiyotaka mentioned that he hit the nail and attacked specifically that part of his and caused him to reveal his secrets just. He could have just scared him (which may be pure intimidation), but using your darkness only to attack a specific part of a person's mentality and have them reveal specific parts of their life "as you wish" is something which is like manipulating and playing with someone's mind. Hard disagree on this one. This is a very poor attempt at classifying someone mean to be unrealistic not supernatural. It would have more probability of being flowery if it was natural, but not here, uff.

Scan please?

This also still does not seem like any supernatural stuff with the way you explained it. Ayanokouji is pretty much an expert manipulator. It shouldn't be hard for him to attack a specific part of someone's mind to just get that information. Ayanokouji also asks Hirata to tell me his backstory, specifically refering to why he was angry with his class, and get information about that part. Hirata has no reason to reveal his whole life just because Ayanokouji intimidated him into revealing his backstory after all.

His facial expressions "don't have to change that much", here, we see no change in his facial expressions howsoever.

Like i said, Ayanokouji has the weird ability to look normal then switch into looking intimidative without changing his facial expressions.

He possesses a long face, and every time you crop his mouth out, it's natural he will look more intimidating. Want an example?

That looks funny rather than more intimidating lmao.

Yeah, but the main point of it being "supernatural" or "unrealistic" in the first place is how he's making someone more scared than they were in that situation (no, you cannot convince me that physical torture is less damaging than someone's eyes to get information out now, and not compare him to Ryuuen who's narratively more scary and unsettling than Kiyotaka according to most characters), and how he is perfectly attacking that part of them to reveal necessary information.

You're still comparing a glare and physical torture, which are BOTH still perfectly natural things. I don't think you even get my point atp.

It would be way superior to normal intimidation feats if it was just that and would be damaging on the same level as fear inducement because it just affects anyone despite their mental resilience to stuff which is depicted as way higher, but either way, it's the choice of the anime to show some "specific" aura around Kiyotaka, and an attack to the art style which is both subjective as well as not particularly wrong.

I'm not tryna say that Instigating Fear feats are not combat applicable. They can very well be as good as Fear Inducement feats effects wise, Inducing fear through Social Influencing tend to depend on specific circumstances (like the emotional state of the character or the enemy) and can be escaped through natural means (like the character canonically feeling no emotions, being berserk or being a robot), while Fear Inducement can be used by the character no matter the circumstance (if there's no limitations to it within the verse), and can only be escaped through Supernatural Willpower (it has to be stated to work this way) or straight up Resistance to Fear Inducement.

For the aura stuff, you're basically saying that Ayanokouji may have a supernatural aura that the anime does not depict, for some reason. That is pretty much your own personal opinion rather than an actual argument. You can pretty much go around giving non existent random feats to Ayanokouji, with the argument of "He has these feats, the anime studio just didn't animate it" and I believe this debate will be entirely pointless at that point. Based on the anime, Ayanokouji does not have an aura around him whatsoever, which is a fact you can't change.

They are not exaggeration. The exaggeration would be if he wasn't just attacking a certain part of character's mentality to have them reveal something outright and perform something this unrealistic. Flowery language would be more applicable if it was something completely natural happening there, but neither was it natural, nor is there any reason to say that it would be flowery language just to have a feat not classify as what is stated.

He isn't attacking certain parts of their mind in a Mind Manipulation type of way. Nothing implies that. He just leads them in a direcrion where they will reveal specific things (as we saw in his scene with Hirata) and intimidates them to spill that specific part out. That is not supernatural whatsoever, and doing that to a person that isn't in the right state drops the possibility of it being supernatural even more.

I meant just the unrealistic part and not the supernatural one. I am aware you are arguing about it being natural, but you have argued about it being unrealistic at the very least.

Social Influencing feats that are hard/impossible to perform does not mean they are supernatural whatsoever. I believe the Sagan Standard explains my point entirely.

 

[RoggerReggor]

This absolutely does not need that amount of spam. This is a pretty simple case.

"Does this meet the standard for supernatural fear inducement?" That's it.

Ok, I will take up my time to create a TL;DR for the respective staff from the counterarguments' side, thanks for the information.

 

[RoggerReggor]

Idk how you see the feat, but it's really not impossible to perform dude. The scene is basically Ayanokouji intimidating a dude at their limit into revealing their secrets, and the dude just comments on his eyes that are intimidating after. There's literally nothing different when you compare this to any other intimidation feat, other than the fact that Hirata just exaggarates his intimidation with the "darkness" stuff.

It is impossible to perform IRL. The anime simply doesn't go with the best interpretation of the feat which is causing this confusion in you. In the novel, Kiyotaka did the same, but he mentioned that the real effect was due to him using his eyes. The first thing is that Kiyotaka is attacking a specific part of a person through his ability, and secondly, this is not performable IRL at any cost, no matter what you say. If it was, or even just "very difficult" but performable, we would have found people like that and would have already been using that to have criminals confess their crimes.

Talk now. I told him with my eyes, encouraging him so powerfully that I was threatening him.

He's talking with his eyes here, and it is more effective than the speech in the anime.

I just presented the feat as an example about Social Influencing feats that are highly hard to perform, even though they are from natural means. So even if the outcome of the fear Koji induces is appearently really really impossible to perform in your opinion, it's just his intimidating eyes that are doing the job, not any superpower.

I am not going to debate this further; this will just derail and cause the reply chain in a different string, I indirectly included this in above. From now, I will just quote your message in the font Times New Roman to say which of your arguments I would not reply to prevent different string spams with the same arguments and which would cause unnecessary continuous spam as Lephyr mentioned.

He's very clearly not in his usual state in the scene and that's what I refered to with his "limit".

That may be argued for Hirata (even though it doesn't make up an excuse for him to reveal unnecessary stuff and he wasn't really even ready to cooperate in that spot), but for Kei, it's kind of impossible, especially considering how she went through much more and stuff cooperated with Kiyotaka, and as he wished, to top that.

What does him not revealing information to anyone else but Koji make the ability supernatural? If I scare a person who has never been scared in his life, that doesn't mean I have Fear Manipulation.

Hirata has been scared a lot in his life. And no, if you happen to manipulate a person's mind more powerfully than any existing power in the world and cause them to reveal specific parts as you wish, that would be heavily supernatural. I used various sources on the internet, and none of them explain this kind of intimidation, this is supernatural based on the "darkness" phenomenon explained, and there's no need to say it as flowery language.

I will be saying this again and again, I just said that even if the effects of a fear that was induced extremely unrealistic (like terrifying a person for their life with a glare, an example I gave before,) that still doesn't change the fact that the fear causes from a natural thing, which is a glare, and the cause is what really matters here. Not the effect.

(replied indirectly to)

Scan please?

This also still does not seem like any supernatural stuff with the way you explained it. Ayanokouji is pretty much an expert manipulator. It shouldn't be hard for him to attack a specific part of someone's mind to just get that information. Ayanokouji also asks Hirata to tell me his backstory, specifically refering to why he was angry with his class, and get information about that part. Hirata has no reason to reveal his whole life just because Ayanokouji intimidated him into revealing his backstory after all.

There's no scan needed. He clasped on to Hirata's state, then realized he was affected by something, and caused him to reveal more to his story which he half-narrated in the cruise ship arc (Year 1 Volume 3). It's the same scan.

Like i said, Ayanokouji has the weird ability to look normal then switch into looking intimidative without changing his facial expressions.

That looks funny rather than more intimidating lmao.

It's just the position of his bangs which makes it like that. Dark shadows on face does it, he still doesn't change his expressions. Also, decide on one thing bro.

Also, it's all the camera angle and stuff. The author has mentioned in his interview as well that the anime is mostly not so expressive on Kiyotaka's side (here).

You're still comparing a glare and physical torture, which are BOTH still perfectly natural things. I don't think you even get my point atp.

No, I am comparing them and coming to how the physical torture shouldn't be more than that glare.

I'm not tryna say that Instigating Fear feats are not combat applicable. They can very well be as good as Fear Inducement feats effects wise, Inducing fear through Social Influencing tend to depend on specific circumstances (like the emotional state of the character or the enemy) and can be escaped through natural means (like the character canonically feeling no emotions, being berserk or being a robot), while Fear Inducement can be used by the character no matter the circumstance (if there's no limitations to it within the verse), and can only be escaped through Supernatural Willpower (it has to be stated to work this way) or straight up Resistance to Fear Inducement.

No, fear inducement can be escaped through willpower. Supernatural Willpower is regarded as absolute escape tool (only against the ones done through mind control or possession), however.

Depending on the user and medium, Fear Manipulation can occasionally be depicted as a power which can be overcome with bravery, willpower and courage.

Limitations | Fear Manipulation | VS Battles Wiki

Characters with this ability may be able to resist enormous amounts of pain, act even when unconscious or well beyond what they should be able to endure, resist possession and mind control, affect their environment, or even go against natural phenomena, such as death or the limits imposed by reality.

Supernatural Willpower | VS Battles Wiki

For the aura stuff, you're basically saying that Ayanokouji may have a supernatural aura that the anime does not depict, for some reason. That is pretty much your own personal opinion rather than an actual argument. You can pretty much go around giving non existent random feats to Ayanokouji, with the argument of "He has these feats, the anime studio just didn't animate it" and I believe this debate will be entirely pointless at that point. Based on the anime, Ayanokouji does not have an aura around him whatsoever, which is a fact you can't change.

The anime does suck at adapting the scene perfect anyways. They don't show the thoughts, or anything related to how Kiyotaka communicated using his eyes, which is pretty much stated in the novel, and also would make the feat look like just normal conversation of Kiyotaka having told Hirata to reveal those thoughts. but only the novel readers know it was his eyes which did the magic. At this point, using the anime to argue using art style is a very bad thing either way. Some anime studios may choose to animate aura and some may not. The only thing is that the novel provides some outside context to this. And this is like saying to believe all the visual information and effects. It is not to be considered a necessity, at least, and to say.

He isn't attacking certain parts of their mind in a Mind Manipulation type of way. Nothing implies that. He just leads them in a direcrion where they will reveal specific things (as we saw in his scene with Hirata) and intimidates them to spill that specific part out. That is not supernatural whatsoever, and doing that to a person that isn't in the right state drops the possibility of it being supernatural even more.

He is attacking certain parts of Hirata's mind. He made him reveal the rest of the cruise ship story and to the point of as he wished...

Same with Kei, he caused her to reveal her secrets. And I have just come to realized that debating this with just Hirata's angle makes it look as you wish.
Using Kei's example boosts this heavily though. While Hirata naturally "probably" wanted to be saved or would have been easier to get revelation of secrets with, Kei is completely different. Her secrets' revelation was going to cause her the reputation, her influence, or maybe even cause her to become a target of intense bullying, to top above already what she was going through, and she has demonstrated resilience to much more than "just a glare". There's nothing IRL close to a glare which would come close to Ryuuen's torture, and Kei was still hiding Kiyotaka's presence in that. So good luck with proving that now. I bet you will say that Kei was in a bad state there as well? Well, she was in worse against Ryuuen and still didn't reveal the secrets (which would have ultimately saved her so).

Social Influencing feats that are hard/impossible to perform does not mean they are supernatural whatsoever. I believe the Sagan Standard explains my point entirely.

ECREE is unrelated to this. ECREE is taught to almost all the students who go into the research sector, and from what I know about it, it is literally the standard for standardizing theories/claims. For example, if you were to make a theory which doesn't get ordinarily satisfied by basic standards, you would need to provide evidence regarding how that would be fulfilled in order to get it accepted and get it incorporated with real world things. Here, we are not trying to argue about trying to standardize a feat of emotion and incorporate it with real life things, but we are trying to have it substantiated enough with the fictional setting of the verse and with respect to RL.

Trying to apply ECREE to this scenario would require "extraordinary evidence" in itself for its application to this.

Stop this debate about ECREE though.

 

[RoggerReggor]

After ThePrimalHunter gets his arguments constructed and organized, I will try to summarize the points from the counterarguments' side for a TL;DR. Thanks for the patience.

 

[Dinozxd]

It is impossible to perform IRL. The anime simply doesn't go with the best interpretation of the feat which is causing this confusion in you. In the novel, Kiyotaka did the same, but he mentioned that the real effect was due to him using his eyes. The first thing is that Kiyotaka is attacking a specific part of a person through his ability, and secondly, this is not performable IRL at any cost, no matter what you say. If it was, or even just "very difficult" but performable, we would have found people like that and would have already been using that to have criminals confess their crimes.

Like I said, you are really misunderstanding what a "supernatural" cause is. A baby being able to scare an adult with a stare is pretty impossible to happen, but it doesn't require any supernatural factors to perform.

He's talking with his eyes here, and it is more effective than the speech in the anime.

How is "Talking with eyes" make this supernatural? He obviously refers to being able to tell things to Hirata without speaking which can be done naturally. Nothing supernatural there.

but for Kei, it's kind of impossible, especially considering how she went through much more and stuff cooperated with Kiyotaka, and as he wished, to top that.

That doesn't make Koji's glare supernatural at all. Being able to intimidate a soldier who has seen much "scarier" things such as war, his friends dying etc, does not make your glare supernatural. It just makes it scarier compared to what the soldier went through. Both what the soldier went through and the glare are natural things, just the effects of the glare are pretty extreme.

And no, if you happen to manipulate a person's mind more powerfully than any existing power in the world and cause them to reveal specific parts as you wish, that would be heavily supernatural.

That is not even relatively close to being supernatural dude.

There's no scan needed. He clasped on to Hirata's state, then realized he was affected by something, and caused him to reveal more to his story which he half-narrated in the cruise ship arc (Year 1 Volume 3). It's the same scan.

You made it seem like he was directly manipulating a specific part of his mind via some kind of Mind Manipulation so I thought the scene had more into it or something. Meanwhile it's just Koji pressuring him more to reveal his story compared to before. That does not even sound remotely supernatural.

It's just the position of his bangs which makes it like that. Dark shadows on face does it,

It doesn't really.

he still doesn't change his expressions.

Like I said, he can just look more intimidating in an instant without changing his facial expressions

No, I am comparing them and coming to how the physical torture shouldn't be more than that glare.

It shouldn't... but it is. If one person is stronger than the other, the first thing that comes to mind shouldn't be "This guy has a supernatural ability which makes him stronger than the other dude".

No, fear inducement can be escaped through willpower. Supernatural Willpower is regarded as absolute escape tool (only against the ones done through mind control or possession), however.

Eh, i guess so. The Fear Inducement feat in question doesn't need to have highly impossible effects for it to be caused from supernatural causes.

The anime does suck at adapting the scene perfect anyways. They don't show the thoughts, or anything related to how Kiyotaka communicated using his eyes,

Hirata in the anime states that his eyes was terrfying as well. And they still heavily imply what Koji is telling Hirata with his eyes. It's still easy to guess that he is forcing him to talk about his backstory with his eyes in the anime which is what happens in the LN as well.

He is attacking certain parts of Hirata's mind. He made him reveal the rest of the cruise ship story and to the point of as he wished...

I don't get the "attacking" part here at all. Why would Ayanokouji intimidate him towards telling something he didn't want to know or need?

Using Kei's example boosts this heavily though. While Hirata naturally "probably" wanted to be saved or would have been easier to get revelation of secrets with, Kei is completely different. Her secrets' revelation was going to cause her the reputation, her influence, or maybe even cause her to become a target of intense bullying, to top above already what she was going through, and she has demonstrated resilience to much more than "just a glare".

I believe i've answered this somewhere above.

There's nothing IRL close to a glare which would come close to Ryuuen's torture, and Kei was still hiding Kiyotaka's presence in that. So good luck with proving that now.

Characters get Social Influencing from intimidating characters to DEATH bro. The effects don't matter, the cause of the fear is what matters.

I bet you will say that Kei was in a bad state there as well? Well, she was in worse against Ryuuen and still didn't reveal the secrets (which would have ultimately saved her so).

I think I've also answered this above.

 

[RoggerReggor]

I will use your reasonings in the TL;DR in which I will try to substantiate everything into one message for the staff to read, along with the reply ThePrimalHunter gives, to lessen the spam.

I also happen to be very busy IRL rn (I just hit my 22nd hour streak about a minute ago ).

 

[Dinozxd]

bump

 

[Fezzih_007]

Bump

 

[Deleted member 40688]

This thread (not OP) was a pain to read. bump

 

[Vzearr]

After ThePrimalHunter gets his arguments constructed and organized, I will try to summarize the points from the counterarguments' side for a TL;DR. Thanks for the patience.

Seems like he won't be providing his arguments. If you're unavailable I could make the TL;DR.

 

[ThePrimalHunter]

After ThePrimalHunter gets his arguments constructed and organized, I will try to summarize the points from the counterarguments' side for a TL;DR. Thanks for the patience.

I already said earlier that I didn't plan on continuing the arguement. I think we already have enough arguements from both sides to come up with a decent tl;dr and have mods decide on an outcome, and me just pretty much repeating the exact same things Dino said won't really help us out with that.

Let's wrap this thread up & see what mods say

 

[RoggerReggor]

Seems like he won't be providing his arguments. If you're unavailable I could make the TL;DR.

I am available and would be working on it in a few hours (expect it within 24).

 

[RoggerReggor]

I am sorry for taking time, but I happen to be very busy IRL to the point of getting only a few hours to focus on other stuff. For this response, I am planning to list all the arguments and counterarguments (mainly from my side) for the removal of ability of Fear Inducement for Ayanokouji Kiyotaka (from Youkoso Jitsuryoku Shijou Shugi no Kyoushitsu e), since the debates about the other abilities hasn't continued for a while now. I have tried to condense everything so far in the thread into a detailed message to explain almost everything (though much shorter than having to read the entire thread).

This will be my last arguments' stuff on this thread.

Expected Reading Time: 5 minutes

The Feats

• In Year 1 Volume 11, it has been revealed that Kiyotaka was able to cause Kei Karuizawa and Hirata Yosuke their innermost secrets by making them perceive some sort of "darkness" which was so dark that it was terrifying, Hirata even reveals his own secrets later on (here).
• In Year 2 Volume 4, Kiyotaka directs his "killing intent" towards Nagumo Miyabi, causing him to feel fear as well, however, Nagumo resists it and stands back up on his feet, causing Kiyotaka to get shocked as a result of it (here).

The Debate
The thread is created by @Vzearr. The most arguments with the proposal of the thread are done by @Dinozxd and @ThePrimalHunter. Meanwhile, I and @XxZetsuxX happen to be in favor of keeping the feat, making us take part as the ones making up the counterarguments.

I will begin to list my counterarguments for everything, along with the arguments, but huge credits to @Dinozxd for drafting this as a TL;DR as well.

Arguments by Vzearr:
Since Vzearr is the person who made the thread, I think I would include his arguments as well.

His first argument regarding the supernatural means would be given with counterarguments later. But just to clear this, the ability is not on Kiyotaka's profile solely because Kei and Hirata possess a superior social position, the reason why their social positions was mentioned in the first place is because if you see the second feat, one of the reasons why according to Kiyotaka for why Nagumo resisted Kiyotaka's inducement is because of his higher social position of being the student council president, but it wouldn't mean that he cannot affect people who have higher social position than him, and the only reason why that is even used in previous threads is to illustrate that his ability can be used to induce fear in people with higher position socially as well, nothing much.

Arguments by Dinozxd and ThePrimalHunter:
I will be including the arguments of both at once since they match, and both possess almost similar arguments.

- The fear Ayanokoji induces in Hirata isn't done via supernatural means as Hirata is already visually in a bad mental state in the scene, so he very well has a reason to spill his secrets.
-> The thing about "supernatural" will be dealt with later, but for now, it is true that Hirata was in a bad mental state, in fact, Kiyotaka implied that Hirata was even feeling suicidal, but also begging to be saved, but again, this doesn't make up for a good reason to reveal his secrets.

It's worth mentioning that Hirata was in fact uninterested in revealing his secrets and didn't see any point in it. About the case of Kei (another girl), in which he used the same thing to cause her to reveal her secrets as well, she had the kind of secrets which could have ultimately caused her to get bullied and even drop out of school. Same with Hirata, it would have costed him his reputation and image indirectly as well, and as much as he looked in a bad state, he wasn't in a state where people could cooperate with someone either. So, both the people on which Kiyotaka used this power were refusing to reveal their secrets. Also, being in a bad mental state almost doesn't make it an excuse for someone to actually reveal their secrets. Like yes, they probably are going through a lot, but they would never reveal their secrets which can cause damage to them only. Also, not a good reason for someone to instantly feel fear and faster than a normal person. That's like saying horror movies can definitely make you feel fear when you are depressed, while most people would have delayed emotions when they are depressed.

- Ayanokouji has a kind of appearance which makes others feel fear when they look him into eyes.
-> This is false for multiple reasons. First of all, Kiyotaka has talked to many people, and many look him into eyes. His character is literally seeing a girl into her eyes and not being flustered even for a second. This can be found many times from like the first episode of anime, and it's very common for people to look into each other's eyes. In fact, even Hirata is looking into Kiyotaka's eyes the entire time. But yes, if the feats actually happen to be fear inducement or social influencing, then it would be still an active ability instead of a passive hax. Also, he is also described as a quite handsome boy, unlikely for someone if they look creepy just from their appearance.

- Kiyotaka manipulates his eyes to look scary appearance-wise, and that, such eyes are possessable as a person.
-> This is false again, because Tsukishiro in Year 1 Volume 11.5 himself mentioned that the darkness in Kiyotaka's eyes couldn't be possessed by anyone from the White Room, no matter how exceptional they are, implying that the eye ability is kind of unattainable by even the most exceptional people. And this kind of means that he doesn't modify his appearance, because if he did, then it could still have been attainable as a skill to a degree, by training, but the fact that one character just mentioned that they cannot be attained by anyone, no matter how exceptional they are, this means that even if there is someone with both talent (genetically gifted with a kind of supposed appearance which can influence people that way) or training, this still cannot help a person get the power.

- The "darkness" and "terror" are purely used for exaggeration or as hyperboles.
-> The only thing which justifies the "supernatural" criteria is "darkness", because "darkness" is still something which is pretty unrealistic. Now, regarding the only thing as an exaggeration for an apparent writing device is unnecessary. According to Dinozxd, the more reason for "darkness" to be exaggerated is that the anime doesn't show anything of that sort, but the truth is that anime has basically cut the things happening in the minds of Kiyotaka and Hirata as well (it doesn't show Kiyotaka mentioning about how honest he was with stuff and also what was happening in Hirata's mind, the conversation is skipped which would mean cutting the darkness part entirely), and makes it look like Kiyotaka verbally manipulated Hirata into revealing of the secrets if someone is an anime-only, which is false as the novel clearly shows that it was only after the fear inducement/social influencing by the eyes that caused the spilling of secrets. Also, it is the choice of the studio to show how they show the darkness or anything of that sort to be.

Also, Tsukishiro's statement mentioned earlier shows that Kiyotaka's eyes do possess "darkness". The fact that there's another character who outright confirms this, should be enough for the "darkness" to be a supernatural cause. Also, the appearance-related or him even modifying his eyes to look scary is kind of false. The thing is already unrealistic (because he is causing someone to reveal their secrets by just looking into their eyes while no verbal comments could help do it) and if it existed in real life, we would be already using it to have criminals confess their crimes. The only people who possess this darkness are Kiyotaka and his father, Atsuomi, and the power is largely implied to be unattainable in even highly exceptional cases. We don't know anything about how he attained them, like it can be a curse on Kiyotaka's family (which causes every person to have darkness in their eyes), or probably have them follow a ritual, or maybe even included with spirits of something of that sort, and all of these would be just theories, and it is never showed what the source of this "darkness" actually is, but the only thing is that someone's eyes cannot possess something supernatural as darkness, and attempting to classify it as an exaggeration and ignoring that the effect of the supposed influence was still unrealistic is bad imo, and straight up denying the feat's path.

And now, another thing pointed out by ThePrimalHunter was that the characters of the verse barely possessed any extraordinary abilities, which is false, the verse already showcases characters possessing abilities such as high extraordinary sense of having sixth sense of sensing people around them, or sensing someone's power just through their body heat, or someone even getting possessed by a personality, or maybe not, but the truth is that person became twice as stronger after getting the assumed possession, which is unrealistic for someone to become twice as stronger, and the character getting stronger after the possession is even listed as a key on the character's profile.

 

[Vzearr]

I am sorry for taking time, but I happen to be very busy IRL to the point of getting only a few hours to focus on other stuff. For this response, I am planning to list all the arguments and counterarguments (mainly from my side) for the removal of ability of Fear Inducement for Ayanokouji Kiyotaka (from Youkoso Jitsuryoku Shijou Shugi no Kyoushitsu e), since the debates about the other abilities hasn't continued for a while now. I have tried to condense everything so far in the thread into a detailed message to explain almost everything (though much shorter than having to read the entire thread).

This will be my last arguments' stuff on this thread.

Expected Reading Time: 5 minutes

The Feats

• In Year 1 Volume 11, it has been revealed that Kiyotaka was able to cause Kei Karuizawa and Hirata Yosuke their innermost secrets by making them perceive some sort of "darkness" which was so dark that it was terrifying, Hirata even reveals his own secrets later on (here).
• In Year 2 Volume 4, Kiyotaka directs his "killing intent" towards Nagumo Miyabi, causing him to feel fear as well, however, Nagumo resists it and stands back up on his feet, causing Kiyotaka to get shocked as a result of it (here).

The Debate
The thread is created by @Vzearr. The most arguments with the proposal of the thread are done by @Dinozxd and @ThePrimalHunter. Meanwhile, I and @XxZetsuxX happen to be in favor of keeping the feat, making us take part as the ones making up the counterarguments.

I will begin to list my counterarguments for everything, along with the arguments, but huge credits to @Dinozxd for drafting this as a TL;DR as well.

Arguments by Vzearr:
Since Vzearr is the person who made the thread, I think I would include his arguments as well.

His first argument regarding the supernatural means would be given with counterarguments later. But just to clear this, the ability is not on Kiyotaka's profile solely because Kei and Hirata possess a superior social position, the reason why their social positions was mentioned in the first place is because if you see the second feat, one of the reasons why according to Kiyotaka for why Nagumo resisted Kiyotaka's inducement is because of his higher social position of being the student council president, but it wouldn't mean that he cannot affect people who have higher social position than him, and the only reason why that is even used in previous threads is to illustrate that his ability can be used to induce fear in people with higher position socially as well, nothing much.

Arguments by Dinozxd and ThePrimalHunter:
I will be including the arguments of both at once since they match, and both possess almost similar arguments.

- The fear Ayanokoji induces in Hirata isn't done via supernatural means as Hirata is already visually in a bad mental state in the scene, so he very well has a reason to spill his secrets.
-> The thing about "supernatural" will be dealt with later, but for now, it is true that Hirata was in a bad mental state, in fact, Kiyotaka implied that Hirata was even feeling suicidal, but also begging to be saved, but again, this doesn't make up for a good reason to reveal his secrets.

It's worth mentioning that Hirata was in fact uninterested in revealing his secrets and didn't see any point in it. About the case of Kei (another girl), in which he used the same thing to cause her to reveal her secrets as well, she had the kind of secrets which could have ultimately caused her to get bullied and even drop out of school. Same with Hirata, it would have costed him his reputation and image indirectly as well, and as much as he looked in a bad state, he wasn't in a state where people could cooperate with someone either. So, both the people on which Kiyotaka used this power were refusing to reveal their secrets. Also, being in a bad mental state almost doesn't make it an excuse for someone to actually reveal their secrets. Like yes, they probably are going through a lot, but they would never reveal their secrets which can cause damage to them only. Also, not a good reason for someone to instantly feel fear and faster than a normal person. That's like saying horror movies can definitely make you feel fear when you are depressed, while most people would have delayed emotions when they are depressed.

- Ayanokouji has a kind of appearance which makes others feel fear when they look him into eyes.
-> This is false for multiple reasons. First of all, Kiyotaka has talked to many people, and many look him into eyes. His character is literally seeing a girl into her eyes and not being flustered even for a second. This can be found many times from like the first episode of anime, and it's very common for people to look into each other's eyes. In fact, even Hirata is looking into Kiyotaka's eyes the entire time. But yes, if the feats actually happen to be fear inducement or social influencing, then it would be still an active ability instead of a passive hax. Also, he is also described as a quite handsome boy, unlikely for someone if they look creepy just from their appearance.

- Kiyotaka manipulates his eyes to look scary appearance-wise, and that, such eyes are possessable as a person.
-> This is false again, because Tsukishiro in Year 1 Volume 11.5 himself mentioned that the darkness in Kiyotaka's eyes couldn't be possessed by anyone from the White Room, no matter how exceptional they are, implying that the eye ability is kind of unattainable by even the most exceptional people. And this kind of means that he doesn't modify his appearance, because if he did, then it could still have been attainable as a skill to a degree, by training, but the fact that one character just mentioned that they cannot be attained by anyone, no matter how exceptional they are, this means that even if there is someone with both talent (genetically gifted with a kind of supposed appearance which can influence people that way) or training, this still cannot help a person get the power.

- The "darkness" and "terror" are purely used for exaggeration or as hyperboles.
-> The only thing which justifies the "supernatural" criteria is "darkness", because "darkness" is still something which is pretty unrealistic. Now, regarding the only thing as an exaggeration for an apparent writing device is unnecessary. According to Dinozxd, the more reason for "darkness" to be exaggerated is that the anime doesn't show anything of that sort, but the truth is that anime has basically cut the things happening in the minds of Kiyotaka and Hirata as well (it doesn't show Kiyotaka mentioning about how honest he was with stuff and also what was happening in Hirata's mind, the conversation is skipped which would mean cutting the darkness part entirely), and makes it look like Kiyotaka verbally manipulated Hirata into revealing of the secrets if someone is an anime-only, which is false as the novel clearly shows that it was only after the fear inducement/social influencing by the eyes that caused the spilling of secrets. Also, it is the choice of the studio to show how they show the darkness or anything of that sort to be.

Also, Tsukishiro's statement mentioned earlier shows that Kiyotaka's eyes do possess "darkness". The fact that there's another character who outright confirms this, should be enough for the "darkness" to be a supernatural cause. Also, the appearance-related or him even modifying his eyes to look scary is kind of false. The thing is already unrealistic (because he is causing someone to reveal their secrets by just looking into their eyes while no verbal comments could help do it) and if it existed in real life, we would be already using it to have criminals confess their crimes. The only people who possess this darkness are Kiyotaka and his father, Atsuomi, and the power is largely implied to be unattainable in even highly exceptional cases. We don't know anything about how he attained them, like it can be a curse on Kiyotaka's family (which causes every person to have darkness in their eyes), or probably have them follow a ritual, or maybe even included with spirits of something of that sort, and all of these would be just theories, and it is never showed what the source of this "darkness" actually is, but the only thing is that someone's eyes cannot possess something supernatural as darkness, and attempting to classify it as an exaggeration and ignoring that the effect of the supposed influence was still unrealistic is bad imo, and straight up denying the feat's path.

And now, another thing pointed out by ThePrimalHunter was that the characters of the verse barely possessed any extraordinary abilities, which is false, the verse already showcases characters possessing abilities such as high extraordinary sense of having sixth sense of sensing people around them, or sensing someone's power just through their body heat, or someone even getting possessed by a personality, or maybe not, but the truth is that person became twice as stronger after getting the assumed possession, which is unrealistic for someone to become twice as stronger, and the character getting stronger after the possession is even listed as a key on the character's profile.

This TL;DR seems one sided, but, thank you for making it.

So basically, @RoggerReggor believes that the Fear Inducement feat in question causes from supernatural means (LN scan-Anime scan (feat happens at 0:27)) while the OP, me and @ThePrimalHunter are opposing that.

Rogger's arguments consist of;
1) The fear Ayanokouji induces in Hirata (the dude that gets scared in both scans) via supernatural means as he has no reason to spill his secrets through natural means.
2) The fear Ayanokouji induces in Hirata is supernatural because he doesn't just induce fear, he induces "darkness" and "terror" as well.

Opposing arguments by me and Primal;
1) The fear Ayanokoji induces in Hirata isn't done via supernatural means as Hirata is already visually in a bad mental state in the scene, so he very well has a reason to spill his secrets.
2) The "darkness and "terror" are just flowery language overexxaggarating Ayanokouji's intimidation.
3) No superpower, supernatural ability, hax, supernatural aura, etc. has been used by Ayanokouji while performing the feat which is an important requirement for Fear Manipulation, and that's why it's not supernatural.

It's worth adding that Qawsedf also agreed with the thread (except for Dura Neg) before the debate occured, here;

@DarkDragonMedeus @ActuallySpaceMan42 Here are the TL;DR'S. I'll quote LephyrTheRevanchist:

Does this meet the standard for supernatural fear inducement?

 

[RoggerReggor]

This TL;DR seems one sided, but, thank you for making it.

I did try to include all of what was included in Dino's TL;DR and the arguments by ThePrimalHunter.

And of course, it would seem one-sided, because there's someone else in favor making it. I did include kind of everything though, and the much higher emphasis on my points may be the deal for it.

Thanks for pinging the staff.

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

This TL;DR seems one sided, but, thank you for making it.

@DarkDragonMedeus @ActuallySpaceMan42 Here are the TL;DR'S. I'll quote LephyrTheRevanchist:

Looks good to me then.

 

[Vzearr]

Looks good to me then.

Do you agree that it's a form of social influencing (instigating fear) or flat out fear inducement?

Regarding the OP, do you agree with all of it? I should note that Qawsedf234 agrees with all of it expect the removal of limited durability negation.

Reading the counter arguments, everything other than the pressure point stuff makes sense to me. So I've changed my mind and agree with removing those abilities.

For the pressure points afaik that's still limited durability negation barring an anti-feat.

 

[RoggerReggor]

I should note that Qawsedf234 agrees with all of it expect the removal of limited durability negation.

One of my friends off-site thinks about doing it so I am just relaying his thoughts.

I am thinking about re-asking Qawsedf about his thoughts on this once, considering how there was almost no debate at that time, as it would be too bothersome to ask a new staff who have no context known for the thread, unneeded if too much to ask for, however.

 

[MorrisHatesYou]

Agree with the thread, although I don't have a clear opinion on durability negation part

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

I think the OP is reasonable.

 

[Shadowslash125]

Agreed.

 

[Vzearr]

Bump.

 

[Shadowslash125]

How many agrees does it still need?

 

[RoggerReggor]

How many agrees does it still need?

Only ActuallySpaceMan42 is needed to check afaik.

 

[LephyrTheRevanchist]

Reading the counter arguments, everything other than the pressure point stuff makes sense to me. So I've changed my mind and agree with removing those abilities.

For the pressure points afaik that's still limited durability negation barring an anti-feat.

I think the OP is reasonable.

With these two agreements, most of OP have been accepted barring dura neg

So if OP wanted they could cut revision short and apply the rest. However, me personally would advise for @ActuallySpaceMan42 evaluation. Still, so as to not wait more than the appropriate, I would give them 24 hrs before @Vzearr can apply what has been accepted.

 

[ActuallySpaceMan42]

Doesn't seem like fear manip to me.

 

[ThePrimalHunter]

I do want to add 2 quick things before revisions get added

1. I don't think that simply being able to punch someone in the throat would count as durability negation. If I punch someone in the head, and their brain smacks around inside of their skull, that doesn't give me durability negation even though I'm effecting their internal organs. If I punch someone in the ribs and the ribs break, that doesn't give me durability negation because I'm effecting a part of their body that's on the inside. Effecting the throat by punching the throat isn't how durability negation works. Also, stuff like getting punched in the throat is definetly impacted by durability. If Ayanokoji tried punching an 8-B in the throat, he isn't going to harm that character in the slightest.
2. The following is going to be a copy and pase from my "Versus Thread Removal Request" post because no staff has acknowledged it yet and I think that this is a fitting place to put it to see if staff is okay with it

It was decided and mostly agreed upon in this thread that Ayanokouji's pressure points can't effect those with a far higher AP than him, as his pressure points working on those with a several times strength advantage was never shown in the series. Thus, Ayano's matches against characters with a >20x AP advantage against him, such as Donald Na, Legosi, Suisei, & Sabo, Ace, & Luffy should be removed, as his main arguement for being able to harm them, his pressure point strikes, has been debunked, outdating the matches.

 

[XxZetsuxX]

I do want to add 2 quick things before revisions get added

1. I don't think that simply being able to punch someone in the throat would count as durability negation. If I punch someone in the head, and their brain smacks around inside of their skull, that doesn't give me durability negation even though I'm effecting their internal organs. If I punch someone in the ribs and the ribs break, that doesn't give me durability negation because I'm effecting a part of their body that's on the inside. Effecting the throat by punching the throat isn't how durability negation works. Also, stuff like getting punched in the throat is definetly impacted by durability. If Ayanokoji tried punching an 8-B in the throat, he isn't going to harm that character in the slightest.
2. The following is going to be a copy and pase from my "Versus Thread Removal Request" post because no staff has acknowledged it yet and I think that this is a fitting place to put it to see if staff is okay with it

PP stuff was never agreed

 

[ThePrimalHunter]

PP stuff was never agreed

That's why I said "mostly agreed upon", because there were still people in the thread against that

That's also why I want mods opinions on this, so that we can come to a conclusion on that and see if the matches can be removed or not

 

[LephyrTheRevanchist]

I do want to add 2 quick things before revisions get added

1. I don't think that simply being able to punch someone in the throat would count as durability negation. If I punch someone in the head, and their brain smacks around inside of their skull, that doesn't give me durability negation even though I'm effecting their internal organs. If I punch someone in the ribs and the ribs break, that doesn't give me durability negation because I'm effecting a part of their body that's on the inside. Effecting the throat by punching the throat isn't how durability negation works. Also, stuff like getting punched in the throat is definetly impacted by durability. If Ayanokoji tried punching an 8-B in the throat, he isn't going to harm that character in the slightest.
2. The following is going to be a copy and pase from my "Versus Thread Removal Request" post because no staff has acknowledged it yet and I think that this is a fitting place to put it to see if staff is okay with it

Not the thread for this.

 

[LephyrTheRevanchist]

Doesn't seem like fear manip to me.

What are your thoughts on the Durability Negation. DDM agrees with OP that it should be removed, while Qawsedf says its valid.

 

[Dinozxd]

I personally think the Dura Neg stuff is valid. The Durability Negation verse page makes it obvious that it is considered some form of negation if you can damage the internal structures of the body. Though the "Limited" part might refer to the Dura Neg not being as effective aganist too high tiers, maybe?

 

[ActuallySpaceMan42]

What are your thoughts on the Durability Negation. DDM agrees with OP that it should be removed, while Qawsedf says its valid.

I think it can be removed. If punching someone in the throat and potentially their voice box counts as Durability Negation, then there are a lot of other things that should count as well.

 

[Qawsedf234]

I think it can be removed. If punching someone in the throat and potentially their voice box counts as Durability Negation, then there are a lot of other things that should count as well.

I can see your point. Unless they're actually attacks the nerves or something it should probably just be removed.

 

[ThePrimalHunter]

I personally think the Dura Neg stuff is valid. The Durability Negation verse page makes it obvious that it is considered some form of negation if you can damage the internal structures of the body. Though the "Limited" part might refer to the Dura Neg not being as effective aganist too high tiers, maybe?

I think that means if you can directly damage the internal structures themselves without having to get through someones durability.

An example of this would be the characters from Chronicle. Their telekinesis can directly target specific internal organs of people. So if one of them wanted to straight up grab your heart with their telekinesis and mess with it, they could despite whatever your durability is. Durability has almost no corelation with their powers, as it doesn't matter what your durability is, they could still grab your internal organs.

COTE's pressure points don't work like that, as whether or not he can effect the persons throat is directly related to if he has enough strength to harm them or not.