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Um, these guys have an entirely different type of Acasuality than the one we're currently talking about.The mysterious man said:
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Yhwach Hax Downgrade (small)
- Thread starter ProfessorKukui4Life
- Start date
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The Prince of Counters said:
U literally just said he is the black goo like I said. How's it feel being in the same boat as me ƒÿæƒÿæƒñªÔÇìÔÖé´©Å
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Mimihagi is composed of black goo. He's nothing but a hand made of Reishi. Yhwach absorbed Mimihagi. Doesn't take a genius to put that together Astral.
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Out of curiosity, why is The Almighty working on Yhwach an anti feat? His fate manip lets him choose which timeline he is in, even after death so its just him changing the present so that he was unharmed by anything or is still alive. See him ressurecting after getting GT'd. He changes what occurs in the present by altering a timeline in the present.
Also what is this point about Mimi not having acausality due to having a past? I can see where the argument for Yhwach not having it comes from but just because you are acausal doesn't mean you can't influence things or have things remember you if the interaction occurred while you already had the type 2. How its being argued now (or as I understand from the posts above) is that since people remember something that was always Type 2, it can't be type 2.
Eg, I am type 2, I save someone from a car. The next day, since I only exist in the current time/present, I didn't save the person and thus they got hit yesterday.
If I am wrong, then you will need to word it better because this^ is what I am getting right now and I hope we can all agree that it is stupid. If the example is true, well .... Type 2 is the absolute dumbest and most stupid ability one could have.
Also what is this point about Mimi not having acausality due to having a past? I can see where the argument for Yhwach not having it comes from but just because you are acausal doesn't mean you can't influence things or have things remember you if the interaction occurred while you already had the type 2. How its being argued now (or as I understand from the posts above) is that since people remember something that was always Type 2, it can't be type 2.
Eg, I am type 2, I save someone from a car. The next day, since I only exist in the current time/present, I didn't save the person and thus they got hit yesterday.
If I am wrong, then you will need to word it better because this^ is what I am getting right now and I hope we can all agree that it is stupid. If the example is true, well .... Type 2 is the absolute dumbest and most stupid ability one could have.
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That's been my argument as well, Blank.
The way I've viewed it is as such:
Normal timeline: ->X->X->X->X->X->X->X->X->, where each -> is the progression of time forward and each X is an event in time: a person can interact with the timeline and have events occur.
Acausal Type 2 how I understand it:->X->X->X->X->X->X->X->X->, where you have gained the ability to temporally lock your past and future away from manipulation via existing outside a timeline such that it cannot be meaningfully interacted with; the person interacts with the timeline but to the view of others, it would be as is things are occuring that they simply were unaware of or have no recollection of post-fact (the future bit is irrelevant to 'normal' causal beings so I won't bother with that).
Acausal Type 2 as-argued for in this post: X, where the bearer has only one instance of existence in all of time at any given time, period. This is a silly interpretation imho since it precludes the person even, really, existing. All events they undertake are undone and all actions toward the future are undone, as-argued for in this post; that's why my first comment was to claim that I believe it has been misunderstood, since applying it in this manner means the being can never even interact with the world around them due to the events just being wiped from existence.
Hopefully this helps clear up my position, and why I'm still somewhat neutral in this instance: the ability itself is either broken, as in it is a bit of a logical contradiction as-argued and cannot be meaningfully debated, or it needs a slight rewording to make sense if the argued-for version is the 'accurate' version.
The way I've viewed it is as such:
Normal timeline: ->X->X->X->X->X->X->X->X->, where each -> is the progression of time forward and each X is an event in time: a person can interact with the timeline and have events occur.
Acausal Type 2 how I understand it:
Acausal Type 2 as-argued for in this post: X, where the bearer has only one instance of existence in all of time at any given time, period. This is a silly interpretation imho since it precludes the person even, really, existing. All events they undertake are undone and all actions toward the future are undone, as-argued for in this post; that's why my first comment was to claim that I believe it has been misunderstood, since applying it in this manner means the being can never even interact with the world around them due to the events just being wiped from existence.
Hopefully this helps clear up my position, and why I'm still somewhat neutral in this instance: the ability itself is either broken, as in it is a bit of a logical contradiction as-argued and cannot be meaningfully debated, or it needs a slight rewording to make sense if the argued-for version is the 'accurate' version.
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People realize that the Soul King was a being of contradiction according to the light novels?
"But the Tsunayashiro ancestor doubted even this non-resistance. Afraid of the Rei-o escaping from his seal by himself; he neither wanted the Rei-o to live nor did he want to kill him. Continuing this helix of contradictions, the Right Arm of 'Stagnation' and the Left Arm of 'Progress' were torn off."
Sk Yhwach ABSORBED both Mimihagi's Powers and Pernida who was killed by cancer thanks to Mayuri's drug while Yhwach was sleeping and absorbing the souls of those who died in battle which give Yhwach their stats, memories, and powers which was explained in chapter "God Like You."
SK Yhwach has both Acasuality and None Acasuality he became a being of contradiction like his father.
"But the Tsunayashiro ancestor doubted even this non-resistance. Afraid of the Rei-o escaping from his seal by himself; he neither wanted the Rei-o to live nor did he want to kill him. Continuing this helix of contradictions, the Right Arm of 'Stagnation' and the Left Arm of 'Progress' were torn off."
Sk Yhwach ABSORBED both Mimihagi's Powers and Pernida who was killed by cancer thanks to Mayuri's drug while Yhwach was sleeping and absorbing the souls of those who died in battle which give Yhwach their stats, memories, and powers which was explained in chapter "God Like You."
SK Yhwach has both Acasuality and None Acasuality he became a being of contradiction like his father.
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>Out of curiosity, why is The Almighty working on Yhwach an anti feat? His fate manip lets him choose which timeline he is in, even after death so its just him changing the present so that he was unharmed by anything or is still alive. See him ressurecting after getting GT'd. He changes what occurs in the present by altering a timeline in the present.
Because it's not just about changing the present here. Yhwach's Almighty chooses a possible future that Yhwach wants to benefit from at his convenience and applies that chosen future to the present, making the present the said new future and/or on the path of said new future. The reason this is an anti feat is because if Yhwach truly didnt exist in the future, then how can be benefit from what happens in the future at all? How would he be able to apply any future to his benefit? Thats literally saying you can have what you don't exist in be applied to yourself, in this case, Yhwach is applying something that he supposedly doesnt exist in...to himself. And that makes absolutely no sense.
In addition to this, im almost 100% certain that Yhwach is able to also see himself in all the futures that the Almighty allows him to see too. He would have to see himself in the future in order for Yhwach to know, let alone apply, which future benefits him the most. Such as him rewriting a future in which he died, him seeing and nulling powers that are used against him in the future, etc. How can Yhwach see himself in the future if he doesnt even exist there?
>Also what is this point about Mimi not having acausality due to having a past? I can see where the argument for Yhwach not having it comes from but just because you are acausal doesn't mean you can't influence things or have things remember you if the interaction occurred while you already had the type 2.
This I already explained in my original OP; It does matter for the most part. I'll explain it again, so read it carefully please.
To be an Acasual Type 2, your past and your future have to be erased from existence, leaving your existence behind to only exist in the present. That means, when your past is deleted, the memories people have of you from said deleted past are to be paradoxed out of history as well as it would have never happened in the first place as a result of you no longer existing in the past.
Like my example. I can't be an Acasual Type 2, if say, my sister or my mother remembers my existence. Because my past is supposed to be deleted from history, yet they can continue to remember it as if it did and still existed. That's a disqualification against my past legitimately being deleted. The only way that I can have someone remember me, and still be able to keep my Acasuality Type 2, is if the people who remember me have Acasuality of their ow. Acasuality Type 1's as they are unaffacted by any changes in the past completely. That means, even if my past is deleted from history, if my mom and sister have Acasuality Type 1, then they would still be able to remember who I am even without an existing past because the changes in the past cannot effect them.
Thats the only exception to "someone remembers you, therefore no Acasuality Type 2". Other than that, Acasual Type 2s cannot be remembered by non-acasual individuals as they arent supposed to have a past to be remembered; its supposedly deleted. In Mimihagi's case (and also Yhwachs), his past and existence is able to be remembered by all of the relevant individuals in Bleach, such as him being the right arm of the Soul King and them knowing about it for example.
Unless every relevant Bleach character have Acasuality Type 1 for being able to remember and know of Mimihagi's existence, even after its supposed to be erased, him having a past and having characters know of his existence from said past are contradictions against him being a legitimate Acasual Type 2. And its the same deal for Yhwach for this, and other reasons.
This can be somewhat confusing at first glance, which is why I made the thread about Acasuality Type 2 in general first to ask questions before making this downgrade thread for Yhwach.
Because it's not just about changing the present here. Yhwach's Almighty chooses a possible future that Yhwach wants to benefit from at his convenience and applies that chosen future to the present, making the present the said new future and/or on the path of said new future. The reason this is an anti feat is because if Yhwach truly didnt exist in the future, then how can be benefit from what happens in the future at all? How would he be able to apply any future to his benefit? Thats literally saying you can have what you don't exist in be applied to yourself, in this case, Yhwach is applying something that he supposedly doesnt exist in...to himself. And that makes absolutely no sense.
In addition to this, im almost 100% certain that Yhwach is able to also see himself in all the futures that the Almighty allows him to see too. He would have to see himself in the future in order for Yhwach to know, let alone apply, which future benefits him the most. Such as him rewriting a future in which he died, him seeing and nulling powers that are used against him in the future, etc. How can Yhwach see himself in the future if he doesnt even exist there?
>Also what is this point about Mimi not having acausality due to having a past? I can see where the argument for Yhwach not having it comes from but just because you are acausal doesn't mean you can't influence things or have things remember you if the interaction occurred while you already had the type 2.
This I already explained in my original OP; It does matter for the most part. I'll explain it again, so read it carefully please.
To be an Acasual Type 2, your past and your future have to be erased from existence, leaving your existence behind to only exist in the present. That means, when your past is deleted, the memories people have of you from said deleted past are to be paradoxed out of history as well as it would have never happened in the first place as a result of you no longer existing in the past.
Like my example. I can't be an Acasual Type 2, if say, my sister or my mother remembers my existence. Because my past is supposed to be deleted from history, yet they can continue to remember it as if it did and still existed. That's a disqualification against my past legitimately being deleted. The only way that I can have someone remember me, and still be able to keep my Acasuality Type 2, is if the people who remember me have Acasuality of their ow. Acasuality Type 1's as they are unaffacted by any changes in the past completely. That means, even if my past is deleted from history, if my mom and sister have Acasuality Type 1, then they would still be able to remember who I am even without an existing past because the changes in the past cannot effect them.
Thats the only exception to "someone remembers you, therefore no Acasuality Type 2". Other than that, Acasual Type 2s cannot be remembered by non-acasual individuals as they arent supposed to have a past to be remembered; its supposedly deleted. In Mimihagi's case (and also Yhwachs), his past and existence is able to be remembered by all of the relevant individuals in Bleach, such as him being the right arm of the Soul King and them knowing about it for example.
Unless every relevant Bleach character have Acasuality Type 1 for being able to remember and know of Mimihagi's existence, even after its supposed to be erased, him having a past and having characters know of his existence from said past are contradictions against him being a legitimate Acasual Type 2. And its the same deal for Yhwach for this, and other reasons.
This can be somewhat confusing at first glance, which is why I made the thread about Acasuality Type 2 in general first to ask questions before making this downgrade thread for Yhwach.
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"Yhwach's Almighty chooses a possible future that Yhwach wants to benefit from at his convenience and applies that chosen future to the present, making the present the said new future and/or on the path of said new future."
How is it possible to choose from a possible future where you are alive if you already died in the past?
You're interpretation of Almighty makes no sense, @ProfessorKukui4Life
How is it possible to choose from a possible future where you are alive if you already died in the past?
You're interpretation of Almighty makes no sense, @ProfessorKukui4Life
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That is exactly how it works though applelord
Yhwach himself literally states he can change futures where he died, meaning even if he is killed in the past he can change the future
Yhwach himself literally states he can change futures where he died, meaning even if he is killed in the past he can change the future
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How about rewritting the future before you are killed?AppleLord said:
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How about rewritting the future before you are killed?
Not possible?
> character is dying
> been able to choose a future when he is alive is now a thing of the past, since there's no way he is surviving the battle and dies again in he future of the same chapter before getting sealed.
> there's no possible future where he comes back to life
Not possible?
> character is dying
> been able to choose a future when he is alive is now a thing of the past, since there's no way he is surviving the battle and dies again in he future of the same chapter before getting sealed.
> there's no possible future where he comes back to life
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The argument in the op is wrong simply because he thought Zangetsu is literally Yhwach and used pre Mimihagi Yhwach's past as an argument, so I definitely disagree with the op. But it seems Cal made new argument in the thread, but still after reading the acausality page I think Xulrev is making the most sense here.
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I can concede if the argument of "Almighty bypasses acausality because Yhwach can use it on himself" stops being brought up, as that logic is faulty.
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Honestly, the entirety of the definition of Type 2 Acausality as-argued in this thread is faulty from my standpoint. I don't even disagree with the OP beyond the poorly-construed evidence, I think this entire ability is just....wrong, for the reasons I gave above.The real cal howard said:
I think the definition of Type 2 Acausality allowing for one to shape one's own fate is the easiest answer within the current framework of the ability, however.
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Isn't that just Fate Manipulation then? Acausality Type 2 just sounds more like a state of being (like being Omnipresent) than an ability.Xulrev said:
Like I said earlier, isn't it likely that Yhwach simply obtained the it can prevent whatever that tries to change or develop from happening ability from Mimihagi without obtaining its Acausality?
What are you're thoughts on that?
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For one, stop arguing "Zangetsu isnt Yhwach". This counter-argument is wrong for 2 reasons. For one, we have literal manga scans of Zangetsu himself and Qetsu saying he is Yhwach so your literally arguing against what Zangetsu himself is saying to suit your narrative. And two, Zangetsu not being Yhwach doesnt matter because Zangetsu comes from Yhwach in the past, which would be impossible if Yhwach's past was deleted from history. So no matter which way you slice it, the point still stands. Zangetsu cannot exist if Yhwach's past is deleted, yet he does. Yhwach cannot be remembered by non-acasual beings if Yhwach never existed in the past, yet he is. Therefore, this proves Yhwach's past exists.M11UTD said:
"pre Mimihagi Yhwach" doesnt a change thing here either as this has been about Mimihagi Yhwach from the start.
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It's quite ridiculous that Kukui still thinks Zangetsu is quite literally Yhwach lol.
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No whats ridiculous is that we have in-canon confirmation of Zangetsu being Yhwach.Sigurd Snake in The Eye said:
From Qetsu, and even Zangetsu himself,
And people are going with this headcanon that both of them are lying.
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No one said they lied, it's just you not understanding what you're reading. It's embarassing.
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Kukui stop being stupid. That statement is contradicted in the same exact sentence.
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Sorry, but im only seeing that as an excuse. What else is there to "understand" here?Sigurd Snake in The Eye said:
Zangetsu flat out says that he is Yhwach, so unless your saying Zangetsu's just wrong, this is pretty explicit.
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@Counters
Don't be aggressive. It will only escalate this into the usual shitstorm Bleach threads get a reputation for.
Don't be aggressive. It will only escalate this into the usual shitstorm Bleach threads get a reputation for.
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By that logic, omnipresence in itself is a contradiction because they exist everywhere and nowhere at the same time.The Prince of Counters said:
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He said he is and he isn't lol. He's only Yhwach in the sense that he's the source of quincy powers. He isn't because he is Zangetsu a totally different entity.
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I wouldnt call someone who, as some of Yhwach's powers, originates from Yhwach an entirely different entity. But okay.Sigurd Snake in The Eye said:
Either way, it still wouldnt matter if Zangetsu wasnt Yhwach's actual past self. Zangetsu cannot exist as Ichigos Quincy Powers if Yhwach never existed in the past. Its really that plain and simple.
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I suppose, but I would rather not assume he has acausality for absorbing Mimihagi when an equally likely explanation is that he might have just obtained its powers without obtaining its state of existence. I mean, the only reason he has acausality is for absorbing Mimihagi when it somewhat contradicts his showings.Xulrev said:
From the Wiki: "Characters with this type of Acausality do not exist in either the past or the future, only the present. This means they cannot be affected by changes to the past, while also making them resistant to Precognition that works by viewing the future, as they do not exist within it, and Fate Manipulation, for the same reaso. In essence, they are able to choose their own fates, but they remain just as vulnerable at the point in time in which they do exist."
The bold is what I believe doesn't really give Yhwach the Type 2 Acasuality qualifications. We know he can see alternate futures with himself in them with Almighty (unless I'm mistaken?) and we know he basically has Fate Manipulation.
As you said, it's likely that the definition of Acausality isn't the best, but changing it to just "Shaping your own fate" sounds like a generalized Fate Manipulation of sorts while Acausality gains fate manipulation as a result of their state of being.
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I wouldnt call someone who originates from Yhwach an entirely different entity.
Zangetsu doesn't originate from Yhwach smh, you do realize Zangetsu is really the hollow right?
Either way, it still wouldnt matter if Zangetsu wasnt Yhwach's past self. Zangetsu cannot exist as Ichigos Quincy Powers if Yhwach never existed in the past. Its really that plain and simple.
This is irrelevant Zangetsu is once again not Yhwach 1st you say it's not your main point but you consistently try to use Zangetsu as an argument, stop repeating ad nauseam. Go finish your question and answer thread to get type 2 changed in definition. As long as Mimihagi has it Yhwach will have it as well. There is no way around it due to how his powers work.
Zangetsu doesn't originate from Yhwach smh, you do realize Zangetsu is really the hollow right?
Either way, it still wouldnt matter if Zangetsu wasnt Yhwach's past self. Zangetsu cannot exist as Ichigos Quincy Powers if Yhwach never existed in the past. Its really that plain and simple.
This is irrelevant Zangetsu is once again not Yhwach 1st you say it's not your main point but you consistently try to use Zangetsu as an argument, stop repeating ad nauseam. Go finish your question and answer thread to get type 2 changed in definition. As long as Mimihagi has it Yhwach will have it as well. There is no way around it due to how his powers work.
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Okay this is just dumb. Its already been explained by Old Man, IMade, Sigurd and every other person in this thread that Yhwach and the Old Man are not the same being. He also isn't part Yhwach's powers but Ichigo's Quincy powers. You also need to stop using scans of the Old Man as a reason for why Yhwach isn't acausal just because he was in chapters before Yhwach absorbed Mimihagi. That is an absurd argument. Things that occur in the fiction are not going to magically alter the scans from previous chapters.
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>Zangetsu doesn't originate from Yhwach smh, you do realize Zangetsu is really the hollow right?
.....im talking about Old Man Zangetsu, Ichigo's Quincy Powers.
.....im talking about Old Man Zangetsu, Ichigo's Quincy Powers.
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@Jvando
This falls apart once you realize keeping the world in check is also a power the SK had just via existing, now guess what Yhwach does once he absorbed him as well? He keeps the balance of the world in check.
This falls apart once you realize keeping the world in check is also a power the SK had just via existing, now guess what Yhwach does once he absorbed him as well? He keeps the balance of the world in check.
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I love it when you respond to random bits. Zangetsu is a different entity. He even has a completely different personality. You're not convincing anyone that Yhwach is quite literally Zangetsu.ProfessorKukui4Life said:
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Ichigo's Quincy powers come from Yhwach. That means, Yhwach would have to exist in the past in order for said quincy powers to come from Yhwach in the first place.AnonymousBlank said:
Yhwach's past being deleted would mean history is changed and Ichigo would have never gotten quincy powers to begin with. Yet, his quincy powers still exist as Zangetsu. That means Yhwach's past still exists.
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Bankai Ichigo and Zangetsu are supposed to iirc. I may be wrong.Dark649 said:
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Not sure about Aizen, but Ichigo and Zangetsu yeah.Dark649 said:
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@Kukui
I am not disagreeing with Yhwach not being acausal, I am disagreeing with your absolutely awful reasoning of using scans from previous chapters to Yhwach absorbing Mimi to argue it. That is what I take issue with.
I am not disagreeing with Yhwach not being acausal, I am disagreeing with your absolutely awful reasoning of using scans from previous chapters to Yhwach absorbing Mimi to argue it. That is what I take issue with.
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And I honestly really don't need to, which is why im dropping that part of the argument now like I could have a while ago.Sigurd Snake in The Eye said:
Zangetsu's existence (and actually, every single quincy in existence) still proves Yhwach's past exists because Zangetsu, as Ichigos quincy powers, comes from Yhwach in the past like all Quincy Powers do. That would be impossible to happen if Yhwach's past no longer existed. This is crystal clear, whether Zangetsu is Yhwachs past self or not.
Whats next? Ichigo's quincy powers come from an alternate source?
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