Yhwach Hax Downgrade (small)

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

Not advancing means you're stuck in 1 point, you have to add up all the evidence not just random bits and pieces. It was decided he fit the definition word for word.

Not neccessarily. Someone who has Type 1 Immortality for example doesnt just suddenly not exist in either the past or future just because their age is stuck in one point and doesnt advance.

And its clearly obvious that Mimihagi has a past since in the past he was removed from the Soul King. If he had no past, how would anyone even remember Mimhagi's existence since he would have no past to begin with?

 

[Sigurd_Snake_in_The_Eye]

What past? he's a cutoff arm that gained sentinence and a will of his own. He's literally been in hiding for over 1,000,000 years.

Also this type 1 immortality point means nothing here at all, he fits the definition word for word for type 2.

 

[Ghuttsu]

yhwach not being able to see mimihagi in the future supports that it is acasuality.

 

[Xulrev]

Honestly it sounds like the way people apply acausality is just flawed. Any character that has a canon cannot possess type 2 per Kukuis argumentation. If they exist in the past they're nullified from having it. But they had to have a past to obtain the ability.

It's a logical contradiction at that point, whereas I view it as being fixed in time and simply immune to certain manipulations of the past or future, which Yhwach demonstrably does have.

So we simply apply the abilities Yhwach would have from this to new terms and honestly should remove T2 Acausality is the wiki uses it how Kukui is asserting since its meaningless.

 

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

What past? he's a cutoff arm that gained sentinence and a will of his own. He's literally been in hiding for over 1,000,000 years.
Also this type 1 immortality point means nothing here at all, he fits the definition word for word for type 2.

Which is now in question so it doesnt matter if he fits it word for word. You have different opinions? Go to the thread and voice them.

Anyway, what past? How about previously being one with the SK as his right arm and then being torn off? If he had no past, how would anyone in the verse even remember his existence or remember that he was Rei-o's right arm? Hell, how would he even be the SK's right arm previously if he has no existing past?

The part of Mimihagi's Acasuality justification is "a being who cannot evolve" and escaping the Almightys view. The latter is easily just resistance to precog instead of it not existing in the future and as for the former, not being able to advance or evolve doesnt mean Mimihagi only exists in one point in time.

 

[Sigurd_Snake_in_The_Eye]

idc if it's questioned, alot of things are questioned and never changed. So unless there is an offical change it's meaningless.

https://vsbattles.com/vsbattles/3028045

I advise you to read the novel or something, if you didn't understand the thread I don't know what to tell you. There isn't any extra answers.

 

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

Honestly it sounds like the way people apply acausality is just flawed. Any character that has a canon cannot possess type 2 per Kukuis argumentation. If they exist in the past they're nullified from having it. But they had to have a past to obtain the ability.

Thats not how this automatically works and theres a reason why I made a thread on Acasuality T2 before making this one.

Before making this thread, I asked what would happen if you were to get Acasuality Type 2. Would you have your past and future erased? And I was given a direct yes as feedback, from Kaltias nonetheless. He even backed up his response by using Madoka as an example, a character who has Acasuality Type 2 because she gets deleted throughout all of history but remains in the present.

 

[The_Prince_of_Counters]

And here we have Kukui flat out ignoring things. Mimihagi isnt acasual just because Yhwach couldn't see him so it's not a Resistance to precog. I wrote walls of text in the previous thread about this so for you to focus solely on one of the many reasons I gave is insulting to me. He's Acasual due to the information from the Light Novels, Manga and the fact that Yhwach couldn't Fate Hax him nor could the Book Of the End work on Yhwach which is past manipulation and Orihime couldn't effect Yhwach or the weakened Rei-o.

 

[Xulrev]

People still recognize Madoka and she herself still has knowledge of the past however, if I'm not mistaken. So no she wouldnt qualify

 

[Sekkonds.]

I think that mimihagi shouldn't have acasualty type 2 either duo to his past with sk/when he fell to SS Eons of years ago/ukitaki stuff

 

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

People still recognize Madoka and she herself still has knowledge of the past however, if I'm not mistaken. So no she wouldnt qualify

People remembering her from the past isnt an anti-feat if those people are Type 1 Acasuals, which was why I said in my OP that this would be acception to allow someone to qualify for Acasuality T2.

That said, IDK Madoka personally. Kaltias is the one whos knowledgeable on her verse and Acasuality as well, which is why I went off his word. If you want to ask him questions about her Acasuality, you can come to my other thread or message him.

 

[KazuiK]

the very description of type 2 acausality says that the bearer of this acausality can still manipulate his own destiny, so to say that he can not because of his causality does not make sense.

 

[AstralKing7]

I actually have more problems with some of his abilities but this isn't the thread for it


Tho like Cal was explaining there is clear contradiction here

 

[Sigurd_Snake_in_The_Eye]

Tho like Cal was explaining there is clear contradiction here

And if you read my response you'd know SK is a being of contradictions in his lore lol.

 

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

And here we have Kukui flat out ignoring things. Mimihagi isnt acasual just because Yhwach couldn't see him so it's not a Resistance to precog. I wrote walls of text in the previous thread about this so for you to focus solely on one of the many reasons I gave is insulting to me. He's Acasual due to the information from the Light Novels, Manga and the fact that Yhwach couldn't Fate Hax him nor could the Book Of the End work on Yhwach which is past manipulation and Orihime couldn't effect Yhwach or the weakened Rei-o.

I already said that I read the thread again so, no, I wasnt ignoring anything.

But anyway, thats the thing. Not fate haxing and not forseeing someone doesnt automatically mean they dont exist in those points in time. They can easily just be normal resistance to the power, not just change someones state of being.

The only actual bit thats worth something towards this topic is Tsukushima's past manipulation not working, which I have suspcion about since Tsukishima never tried to use the Book of the End on Yhwach himself. Unless im mistaken since Tsukishimas not someone I remember well.

 

[The4Godlike]

So as an Acausal Being, Yhwach chose his own fate to be defeated by Ichigo and to be new Soul King?

 

[Sigurd_Snake_in_The_Eye]

So as an Acausal Being, Yhwach chose his own fate to be defeated by Ichigo and to be new Soul King?

Maybe just maybe he lost all his powers.

 

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

the very description of type 2 acausality says that the bearer of this acausality can still manipulate his own destiny, so to say that he can not because of his causality does not make sense.

Yeah thats bullshit (not the Yhwach thing but the description for Acasuality T2 in general)

How can you manipulate a destiny that doesnt exist? You dont exist in the future with this type of Acasuality, so there isnt even any destiny to change here.

 

[Sigurd_Snake_in_The_Eye]

then get it changed(offically).

 

[Ghuttsu]

and the state of being is bullshit by the way, alucard became omnipresent by absorbing shrodinger.

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

And the point of SK being a being of contradiction is explained away how?

Being a contradiction isn't a get out of jail free card.

"Soul King can't beat Hajun, as a higher dimensional being beats a lower one. Soul King beating Yhwach is a contradiction."

"Well Soul King is a living contradiction."

I know this isn't what you're saying but it can be extrapolated that way.

 

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

and the state of being is bullshit by the way, alucard became omnipresent by absorbing shrodinger.

Alucards page doesnt specify anything like this, just omnipresence.

And that doesnt neccesarily mean we're wrong. It'll mean Alucard needs to lose that as well if what your saying checks out.

 

[Ghuttsu]

and the state of being is bullshit by the way, alucard became omnipresent by absorbing shrodinger.

 

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

then get it changed(offically).

We already have a thread calling out Acasuality T2, so best believe that's the intention.

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

I already said it was bullshit almost immediately. Stop bringing it up.

 

[Sigurd_Snake_in_The_Eye]

Being a contradiction isn't a get out of jail free card.

"Soul King can't beat Hajun, as a higher dimensional being beats a lower one. Soul King beating Yhwach is a contradiction."

"Well Soul King is a living contradiction."

I know this isn't what you're saying but it can be extrapolated that way.

How in the world is this a counter argument to what i'm saying tbh?

And who interpets this to him being 1-A?

 

[AstralKing7]

Alucard absorbed his body if I remember correctly

 

[Ghuttsu]

Alucard absorbed his body if I remember correctly

yhwach absorbed mimihagi?

 

[The_Prince_of_Counters]

Alucard absorbed his body if I remember correctly

Yes in the same way Yhwach did to Mimihagi.

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

@Sigurd. The counter argument is me saying that your argument is a non-argument. He's a contradiction isn't going to make me go "well crap, you're right" because that doesn't address my point. As I said in my previous post, it's not a get out of jail free card.

 

[AstralKing7]

No actually can that be proven?? How do we actually know Yhwach didn't turn him into spiritual particles or even transmuted him with his black goo. Stuff like this has to be asked compared to Hellsing when it was even planned to make Alucard omnipresent if I remember correctly

Yes in the same way Yhwach did to Mimihagi.

 

[Sigurd_Snake_in_The_Eye]

@Sigurd. The counter argument is me saying that your argument is a non-argument. He's a contradiction isn't going to make me go "well crap, you're right" because that doesn't address my point. As I said in my previous post, it's not a get out of jail free card.

But you're point didn't address anything I said. You just made a general statement based off nothing honestly.

 

[The_Prince_of_Counters]

Astral thats ******* stupid not even gonna lie. Yhwach absorbed Mimihagi just like how he did to the Rei-o and we see it. You're just pulling shit out your ass. Apologizes if I come off as hostile but that's one of the dumbest things I've heard in awhile. Mimihagi is the black goo, Yhwach didn't transmute anything. If you had actually bothered reading the manga you'd know this.

 

[Xulrev]

Alright so @Kukui:

Tsukishima's ability occurs by forcibly inserting himself into the past and altering it by creating new timelines. He did not have any interaction with Yhwach when rewriting Ichigo's Bankai, as if he had, then Book of the End would have been power-nulled via Almighty, reasonably. I think this ought to address your question on Tsukshima, Kukui.

But, this thread is getting to be a confusing jumble of meta-nonsense imho. People are arguing for and against contradictions which is, itself, silly at base since once logic goes out the window you can't debate it anymore.

The conditions for Type2 Acausality are not being able to be effected via a past or future. Mimihagi was shown to reasonably fit the bill there, as its ability is to lock down a chosen thing and stagnate it. Yhwach post-absorption was unable to be affected by Tsukishima's Book of the End, which required both his new timeline and Orihime's godly power of causal rejection to even mend a sword affected by Yhwach, and his manipulating the future is actually defined in the ability itself: In essence, they are able to choose their own fates, but they remain just as vulnerable at the point in time in which they do exist.

So reasonably Yhwach should be not contradicting anything when manipulating his own future, since he has a form of self-Fate Manipulation which the ability definition itself allows for.

 

[The_mysterious_man]

https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/The_Basanos this Make more sense and it is possible in you opinion

 

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

The conditions for Type2 Acausality are not being able to be effected via a past or future.

No, the conditions for Acasuality Type 2 are to not exist in either the past or future, only existing in the present. Its more than not being able to be effected. Making this correction before I go further.

 

[Sigurd_Snake_in_The_Eye]

means him being able to fate hax himself is irrelevant as a form of counter argument via the description, because it's something he should be able to do per the definition.

 

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

Relying on the current description to try and save Yhwach from ths is not exactly a way out.

Again, there is absolutely no way to say a character does not exist in the future if their own future, fate, destiny, etc, hax is capable of working on themselves. Because how can you apply something that doesnt exist towards your existence to yourself? Thats just completely non-sensical.

 

[Sigurd_Snake_in_The_Eye]

I'm arguing per the current standards and definition. Thats how this works. Clearly your issue is with type 2 as a whole.

 

[The_mysterious_man]

Relying on the current description to try and save Yhwach from ths is not exactly a way out.

Again, there is absolutely no way to say a character does not exist in the future if their own future, fate, destiny, etc, hax is capable of working on themselves. Because how can you apply something that doesnt exist towards your existence to yourself? Thats just completely non-sensical.

https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/The_Basanos this Make more sense and it is possible in you opinion he simply can overcome the state with the upgrade version of A