Yhwach Hax Downgrade (small)

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

It's bad wording then on the writer's part.

This. Type 2 Acasuality's wording is no different than, say, immunity to soul manipulation. You cannot manipulate what isnt there, so it's immunity based on what you dont have.

The description is saying immunity without using the actual world "immunity". And this is pretty simple since you cant manipulate what doesnt exist.

 

[Sigurd_Snake_in_The_Eye]

Void manipulation is the manipulation of nothingness.

And i've been told there are characters that can soul-hax people that lack a soul.

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

The only character I know that can do that is Alphamon, and that got changed to being able to manipulate essence after I rode Dragon's ass about that.

 

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

The only character I know that can do that is Alphamon, and that got changed to being able to manipulate essence after I rode Dragon's ass about that.

Uh cal......ovo

 

[Xulrev]

I agree with Cal in that the wording on the Acausalities is absurdly suspect. It's why that's what I've been harping on this whole thread.

I truly would be fine with the downgrade, but only as a result of the entire ability seeming to be flawed, thus my neutrality.

The evidence given has been shown to be a bit shaky in points (Old Man Zangetsu isn't Yhwach, this is just a fact truthfully I'm sorry Kukui but he's a damned Hollow, you can't say White was Yhwach), but overall there's some compelling arguments on both sides and that makes me believe that there's a mutual middle ground since both sides are dancing around the description of the ability itself and utilizing that to snipe points in their favor.

I believe that, in conjunction with my previous commentary on the subject, seems to sum up the meta-debate that's been taking up most of this CRT and preventing its moving forward.

Quick edit: I'm on mobile and did jumble my thoughts a bit; the actual Zangetsu is White the Hollow. Yhwach would not have been able to fuse with him to form Ichigo's Inner True Bankai when they fought pre-Dangai if Old Man were really Yhwach due to the nature of their abilities. OMZ is indeed Ichigo's Quincy powers given form, not Yhwach, thus the claim 'I'm Yhwach but not Yhwach' because he is Yhwach's blood which resides in Ichigo but is Ichigo's Quincy power. Sorry for the confusion

 

[AppleLord]

Wtf is going on here.

Almighty affecting Yhwach's future literally means he doesn't have Acausality Type 2. As explained many times.

All other arguments should be redundant until this is fully addressed.

I already did. Yhwach is a being that exist in a Helix of contradiction like his father did before him.

Zangetsu cannot exist if Yhwach's past is deleted, yet he does.

VSBW Moderators agreed in the past that Old Mand Zangetsu was NOT Yhwach but a manifestation of Ichigo's Quincy powers and as the manga says Ichigo's own soul. For this very reason we did not added Zangetsu's abilities to Yhwach's profile-shadow clone Justu being one of them.

 

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

The evidence given has been shown to be a bit shaky in points (Old Man Zangetsu isn't Yhwach, this is just a fact truthfully I'm sorry Kukui but he's a damned Hollow, you can't say White was Yhwach),

What?? White Zangetsu is the actual Zangetsu who is the combo of Ichigos hollow and shinigami powers.

Old Man Zangetsu, the fake one, is Ichigo's Quincy powers. Im talkin about the latter here, not White.

 

[Sigurd_Snake_in_The_Eye]

They're both the same being.

 

[Xulrev]

They're both the same being.

This. Thus their ability to fuse, and one taking over when more 'in-charge' of Ichigo's full power.

Kukui I do believe you are unaware of some of the intricacies relating to Bleach based upon the discussion of Old Man Zangetsu and the scans: Ichigo inherited White the Hollow's power and his mother's Quincy power in a 2-in-1 package type deal when he was born. They're the same singular being, his Inner Power, just given two faces to represent which is more in control at a single point in time.

OMZ refused to unlock Ichigo's full Quincy power due to not wanting Ichigo to fight Yhwach and die. Zangetsu just wanted Ichigo to stop being a punk and utilize his full power, thus the inner conflict. But they're both his full power as seen at Oetsu's Phoenix Palace when ONE being named Zangetsu is turned into two swords.

Make sense?

 

[AppleLord]

They're both the same being.

Correct.

 

[Xulrev]

Thank you Apple, that is the proof I was going to search for once I was able. I appreciate the supporting proof

 

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

Zangetsu cannot exist if Yhwach's past is deleted, yet he does.

VSBW Moderators agreed in the past that Old Mand Zangetsu was NOT Yhwach but a manifestation of Ichigo's Quincy powers and as the manga says Ichigo's own soul. For this very reason we did not added Zangetsu's abilities to Yhwach's profile-shadow clone Justu being one of them.
Let me explain something here. And this time i'll put in more detail about it because its still not getting the point across.

Okay. So Zangetsu isnt Yhwach's past self. There, done. I already said that I would drop this part of my argument above. However, even without being Yhwach's past self, Old Man Zangetsu's whole existence as Ichigo's quincy powers still make it impossible for Yhwach's past to be non-existent as ive said multiple times before. To understand more about this, i'll give you an example.

My Example
Say for instance that someone I was friends with, in the past, had the power to bestow powers onto other people. And this friend of mine gave me the power of fire manipulation. Then 10 years later in the future, my friend supposedly becomes a Type 2 Acasual while im still a non-acasual being who can be effected by time paradoxes. This means his future and his past are to no longer remain in existence as he now only exists in the present. Which is what Acasuality Type 2 currently is. With his past being erased, that means that his interactions with me in the said deleted past are also now supposed to be erased from existence. With my past with him gone, everything that I have gained from him is to be deleted from history too since he would have never existed in the past to interact with me, which means my fire manipulation is supposed to be erased as I got this power from him, in the past. Yet, in the present time, the fire manipulation that I gained from him still exists.

How can this happen if his past was erased from history? Im not immune to the changes in time, so the only explanation as to how I can keep the power I gained from him is that his past was never actually deleted. It still exists. Meaning he's not a real Type 2 Acasual.

What does it have to do with Yhwach?
This is the same exact situation with Ichigo, Zangetsu and Yhwach. Zangetsu isnt Yhwachs past self as we've now clarified. However, Old Man Zangetsu is still Ichigo's Quincy Powers. And Ichigo gained his Quincy Powers from Yhwach in the past as all Quincy powers originate from Yhwach in the past. If Yhwach's past was to be really erased from history due to supposedly no longer existing in the past, that would mean the powers that all Quincies gained from Yhwach in the past would be paradoxed out of history too as Yhwach would have never existed back then to give them those powers to begin with. Which means, Old Man Zangetsu would have never existed as Ichigo's quincy powers later down the line and Ichigo would never get Quincy Powers to begin with. Yet, Zangetsu still remains in existence as Ichigo's Quincy Powers. Ichigo never loses them, Zangetsu wasnt paradoxed out of history, Zangetsu still very much exists as his Quincy Powers.

So how can Zangetsu still exist if Yhwach really no longer existed in the past? This would be flat out impossible, unless either Ichigo has Acasuality Type 1 to still have Zangetsu even though Yhwach doesnt exist in the past as claimed to be, or Yhwach's past was never actually erased.

This is why my point still stands. Zangetsu not being Yhwachs past self doesnt counter the argument as Zangetsu still comes from Yhwach's past as quincy powers.

 

[Peter_"Quicksilver"_Maximoff]

"Zangetsu still comes from Yhwach's past as quincy powers" Huh?, I think your misunderstanding something here man.

 

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

"Zangetsu still comes from Yhwach's past as quincy powers"
Huh?, I think your misunderstanding something here man.

Yhwach is the originator of Quincy Powers, hes the one who gave Quincy their powers, his blood flows through all Quincy.

I dont think im misunderstanding anything here.

 

[AppleLord]

ProfessorKukui4Life

Let me explain how that isn't the case.

> Soul King was a helix of contradiction having both "Mimihagi's" and "Pernida's" powers of stagnation and progress.

> Some of the Worlds were created by him before he got his arms remove and they took a will of their own.

> Yhwach absorbed both "Stagnation" and "Progress" becoming the next Soul King, a new helix of contradiction.

By all means Soul King and Yhwach had no past or future therefore the whole series wouldn't be possible. Is just a feat for Almighty to work on Yhwach's/Mimihagi's Stagnation (which we know didn't work the first time), even the Almighty works when is erase from Yhwach by it's own. Is an OP ability.

Tell me this how can the Soul King, Yhwach, Mimihagi and every other fiction character that has Acasuality type 2 has influence the past and people remember who they are and what they did?

 

[M11UTD]

All these happened before absorbing Mimihagi.

 

[AppleLord]

-

> Wouldn't that mean that all Quincies would suddenly vanish into non-existence because Yhwach and the Soul King are the progenitor?

> Wouldn't this new power for Yhwach protect those who aren't acasual since a part of Yhwach's Soul is inside them? Shouldn't that part of his souls still be link to his original body who obtained Acasuality and by the default that fragment of Yhwach's soul protect them from losing their powers?

 

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

Tell me this how can the Soul King, Yhwach, Mimihagi and every other fiction character that has Acasuality type 2 has influence the past and people remember who they are and what they did?

Because, again, the people who remember the deleted pasts of Acasual Type 2's are people who are Acasual themselves. Madoka for example has characters in her verse who are able to remember her, despite her being an Acasual Type 2, because those characters are Acasual Type 1s. That lets Madoka off the hook because even with her past erased, that does not effect the people who are immune to changes in history. Ive said this like 4 times already.

Your point would be a stronger one if you were talking about non-acasuals remembering the deleted pasts of Acasual Type 2's. Which is exactly the case here with Bleach characters remembering Yhwach and even Mimihagi.

Unless Ichigo and every relevant character in the verse have Acasuality Type 1. Which we all know is ridiculous.

 

[Xulrev]

>Madoka for example has characters in her verse who are able to remember her, despite her being an Acasual Type 2, because those characters are Acasual Type 1s. That lets Madoka off the hook because even with her past erased, that does not effect the people who are immune to changes in history.

That's actually not true.

Either her past exists, or it doesn't. It can either be interacted with, or it cannot. You're arguing that it is both things simultaneously when you've been arguing. This runs contrary to how you've been arguing Type 2 for most of the thread, and more aligns with how I've been asserting it to function, that of 'the past exists but it is just sealed off'. That's the only explanation that allows your argumentation here to be upheld within the constraints of the accepted Type 2 definition.

The counterargument you'll likely want to bring up is 'Well it exists but only to Type 1s!' in which case yes, you're accepting my point which is the past exists. This actually voids literally your entire argumentation in this thread of 'A type 2 existing means everything they've ever done ceases to exist.' No, it exists alright, it's just that your standard person cannot meaningfully interact with it anymore.

You're arguing for both sides of the coin at this point, essentially. You can either eat your cake or have it, but just stick to a single point please.

 

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

Except it is true. Because Type 1 Acasuality is what allows people to be unaffected by any kind of changes to the past, period. Thats the one acception to Type 2 Acasuals being able to be remembered after they get erased from the past (and future).

If someone who has Type 1 Acasuality remembers the past of a Type 2 Acasual, even after the latters past is erased from history, it doesnt invalidate their Type 2 Acasuality. The Type 1 Acasual will remember their past, whether it exists or it doesnt, since they remain unaffected by the past changing.

 

[Xulrev]

So the past still exists, is what you're arguing for, in some way/shape/form? Then we are agreed and it invalidates most of what you argued for, realistically?

 

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

So the past still exists, is what you're arguing for, in some way/shape/form?

No, it wouldnt exist. The Type 2 Acasuals past would be deleted since they are supposed to no longer exist there.

Remembering their past is only an anti feat against their Type 2 Acasuality if you are a non-acasual who remembers them since you are bound by the changes in time. Type 1 Acasuals are an acception since they are immune to time changes.

In other words, if Ichigo and other Bleach characters had Type 1 Acasuality, then remembering Yhwach or Mimihagis past wouldnt be an anti feat as they wouldnt be effected by Yhwach's and Mimihagis Pasts being deleted. So they would be able to keep their Type 2 Acasuality if this was actually the case. But its not since they are non-acasuals. Meaning remembering Yhwach's past as people who are bound by time paradoxes is an anti-feat against Type 2 Acasuality.

 

[The4Godlike]

I'm just here to say that it is not "Acasual", it is "Acausal". Thread is just too long to read.

 

[Andytrenom]

You're Acasual

 

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

I swear, im gonna hate Acasuality after having to type it so much lol

 

[Xulrev]

So either the past exists and can be interacted with, or it cannot, Kukui, which are you arguing for

 

[C2_of_Omegon]

???

How does type 1 acausality disprove what Kukui's saying? If type 1s cannot be affected by time changes/paradoxes dealing with the past, then that would make them exceptions.

Otherwise, type 1 acausals cannot exsist in the same verse as type 2 acausals.

 

[Inverted_Tempest]

I agree with the OP for different reasons. Absorption shouldn't change Yhwach's state of being. Acausality is a state of being. To further what I mean, Buu absorbing Gotenks didn't make Buu a Saiyan.
But more importantly, Almighty couldn't see Mimihagi. Yet you claim that Almighty can work on Yhwach.

No offense but this is an awful analogy. You can't equate a physiology to a state of being, that is the direct definition a false analogy and horrendously representing the case here.

Regardless, I agree with removing it. I'm rather sure the Almighty works in a fashion of choosing an outcome that Yhwach favors by choosing a future most ideal. If that's the case, then he's selecting one of those future outcomes which might contradict the Acausality Type 2. If I'm wrong, feel free to correct me, but I wanted to shed light that some of the counterarguments against it are very bad right now.

 

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

@Inverted

Cal already admitted that wasnt a good example to prove his point.

 

[Inverted_Tempest]

Didn't see but it doesn't take away from the point nonetheless. I agree with the thread btw but a lot the reasons in the OP seem to be off when regarding why it should be removed, when the simple answer is literally just with how the Almighty works (what I mean is the part where Zangetsu = Yhwach). This comes from me not really wanting to read the whole thread but giving my input obv.

 

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

but a lot the reasons in the OP seem to be off when regarding why it should be removed, when the simple answer is literally just with how the Almighty works (what I mean is the part where Zangetsu = Yhwach).

Sorry, this comes from stuff being dropped mid way and IK my thread is crazy long to read everything.

I dropped my "Zangetsu is Yhwach" part of the argument, however being Ichigos Quincy Powers, and all Quincy getting their powers from Yhwach in the past, Zangetsu not getting paradoxed out of history would be another reason why Yhwach's past still remains in existence.

Basically, I switched my "Zangetsu = Yhwach" argument with "Zangetsu came from Yhwach".

 

[Xulrev]

???
How does type 1 acausality disprove what Kukui's saying? If type 1s cannot be affected by time changes/paradoxes dealing with the past, then that would make them exceptions.

Otherwise, type 1 acausals cannot exsist in the same verse as type 2 acausals.

Because there is still a past for the Type 1 to interact with, so it exists, which supports my view on what Type 2 is and not the defintiion as-written.

 

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

But Type 1's...dont interact with the past.

They are just unaffected by what happens in the past. Meaning, even if their past or a Type 2 Acasual's past is to be erased, they will still be able to remember it because the change wouldnt affect them.

 

[C2_of_Omegon]

Honestly, I ultimately side with Kukui.

Disregarding everything else, the simple fact that Yhwach can change his own future. If he doesn't exist in the future, how can he see and change his own fate? That doesn't strike me as a point of showing how powerful the Almighty is, it's a point agasint Yhwach's supposed Acasuality Type 2.

Next up, Type 1 Ascasuals are an exception to the Type 2's time paradox of deleting the past due to the fact they're unaffected by changes in the past due to time paradoxes. Even if a Type 1 was to remember a Type 2's past, the rest of reality would not reflect it. There would be no physical evidence that any of parts of the past that invloved the Type 2 ever occurred and no one but the Type 1 would remember any of it.

 

[Andytrenom]

Things that are erased don't have to be non-existant in every single way possible. History is changed so that the original events never happened anymore but someone who has the ability to be immune to changes in the past can still remember them even if no else can. That's why type 1 acausals can remember a type2 acuasal's past after it's erased

 

[Sigurd_Snake_in_The_Eye]

Again, Yhwach has it because of Mimihagi. This is how Yhwach's absorption works. He absorbed Mimihagi's power and type 2 is a part of his power.

 

[Xulrev]

I believe neither of you have read any of my other posts to give context.

If the Type 1 is interacting with the Type 2's past regardless of its 'deletion', that is just proof that it is temporally locked in such a manner that it requires specific abilities to be interacted with, not that the past and every occurrence therein ceases to exist. If the latter was the case, the Type 1 would not be interacting with anything at all since none of it came to pass. It's not a paradox, it's simply that it doesn't exist. Type 1 Acausality doesn't allow the Type 1 to simply create events wholesale by existing, there had to have been events that occurred for them to interact with in the first place, which means they exist.

The deletion of the past is not a 'paradox', it's the removal of event(s) [X] from the timeline, and C2's assertion of the Type 1 being the only one to remember it really just is agreeing with my temporal lock assertion.

Again, though, this is an absurdly meta-topic for the thread, and the fact that goal posts have had to shift so drastically is itself telling.

 

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

Next up, Type 1 Ascasuals are an exception to the Type 2's time paradox of deleting the past. Even if a Type 1 was to remember a Type 2's past, the reality would not reflect it. There would be no physical evidence that any of parts of the past that invloved the Type 2 ever occurred and no one but the Type 1 would remember any of it.

This^^^. This is what I have been saying.

If a non-acasual being remembers the past of a friend whos supposedly Type 2 Acasual, after the Type 2 Acasuals past was supposedly deleted, then that is what becomes the anti-feat against the Type 2 Acasual. Why? Because a non-acasual is bound by time paradoxes, they cant remember a past that doesnt exist as it would affect them going forward.

However, if someone who is Type 1 Acasual remembers the past of a Type 2 Acasual, even after the Type 2 Acasuals past is deleted, the Type 2 Acasual can still qualify for keeping the power. Why? Because even though they no longer exist in the past, making their past non-existent, the person who remembered them is a Type 1 Acasual. Type 1 Acasuals are unaffected by any change in time done in the past. So they would be able to remember someone, even if their past is erased.

The former is an anti-feat, the latter is an exception to Type 2 Acasuality's qualifications.

 

[Xulrev]

Things that are erased don't have to be non-existant in every single way possible. History is changed so that the original events never happened anymore but someone who has the ability to be immune to changes in the past can still remember them even if no else can. That's why type 1 acausals can remember a type2 acuasal's past after it's erased

Andy this is different than what Kukui has been arguing, however.

His argument is that the past's deletion means everything ever affected by the events of the past is also undone. The Type 1 Acausal would be, in effect, experiencing several lives all at once while every undone action spawns a new timeline as well as the original timeline. This is demonstrably not the case, however.

The alternative is that they simply exist in the current timeline where everythign was 'deleted', proving that everything remains the same, but they simply remember everything whereas others don't, implying a temporal lock that requires specific abilities to get around.

 

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

I believe neither of you have read any of my other posts to give context.
If the Type 1 is interacting with the Type 2's past regardless of its 'deletion',

But they dont interact with the deleted past. They are just unaffected by it and remember it. Thats it.

This is where your argument already starts to come undone.