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Last thing I will say before being silent for the rest of this, just stop doing these things constantly, it really is excruciatingly tedious.
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Yhwach, Destroyer of Worlds (Bleach God Tier Revision)
- Thread starter Cyberblader90
- Start date
- Status
- 8,170
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The people agreeing with damages argument involving the Dangai clearly don’t understand the source material to be blunt.
It’s been explained several times how it’s impossible for it be the Dangai due to it’s mechanics as mostly a crossroad between the human world and soul society.
Returning everything to how it was requires the destruction of Garganta which is the construct that actually separates each main world and the countless other worlds formed by blanks.
The argument of “he doesn’t say Garganta” is frankly stupid as if people can’t think and understand words themselves to come to a conclusion without something being outright stated. This is a basic skill learned in school. Even Kubo explains this himself that this is how he writes.
The idea he needs to only destroy “portions” of Garganta literally makes no sense whatsoever. How would that even work? How would destroying “portions” around the main world work?
It’s been explained several times how it’s impossible for it be the Dangai due to it’s mechanics as mostly a crossroad between the human world and soul society.
Returning everything to how it was requires the destruction of Garganta which is the construct that actually separates each main world and the countless other worlds formed by blanks.
The argument of “he doesn’t say Garganta” is frankly stupid as if people can’t think and understand words themselves to come to a conclusion without something being outright stated. This is a basic skill learned in school. Even Kubo explains this himself that this is how he writes.
The idea he needs to only destroy “portions” of Garganta literally makes no sense whatsoever. How would that even work? How would destroying “portions” around the main world work?
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The_Pink_God
She/Her- 2,641
- 733
Ummm... Did I already say I agree with the changes?
If not then I agree with the changes
I do have one thing to say tho
Goddamn is this thread one of the most toxic I have
Staffs and non-staffs getting yelled on to be "Bias"
Some people basically just painting fingers w/o even knowing what's going on
And some people just being a d*ck in general
I'm not going to say names, but... I just want to say
If you think another is "Bias" just because they don't agree with you, or is just pointing fingers w/o even knowing what's happening...
That is the most childish and idiotic thing I have ever seen in my life, so just... Try to be more nicer to others and treat them as you want to be treated
Just that really, I might snap someone but, idrc about that
If not then I agree with the changes
I do have one thing to say tho
Goddamn is this thread one of the most toxic I have
Staffs and non-staffs getting yelled on to be "Bias"
Some people basically just painting fingers w/o even knowing what's going on
And some people just being a d*ck in general
I'm not going to say names, but... I just want to say
If you think another is "Bias" just because they don't agree with you, or is just pointing fingers w/o even knowing what's happening...
That is the most childish and idiotic thing I have ever seen in my life, so just... Try to be more nicer to others and treat them as you want to be treated
Just that really, I might snap someone but, idrc about that
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I mean, people should avoid being rude with others members, it makes the thread toxic, nobody likes it, and if the thread becomes toxic, it turn into a STAFF ONLY, and I am pretty sure that almost everyone here who agree with the upgrade won't like it, so, if you don't want STAFF ONLY, avoid being rude, I'm not saying this to a specific member, I'm saying this to everyone think 2 or 3 times before writing something
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Why does everybody want the last word? Get on with the thread.
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All I'm saying is I'm in agreeance with the OP and their arguements, we've had tons of these threads discussing Bleach specifically even months back with Arc leading a staff only Bleach CRT and it's always been controversial but whether you agree or disagree just try not let people's decisions (whether you agree or not or feel that something should be simple, blatant, and generally understood) let you go overboard, derail, and give attitudes towards things that won't help either side progress on the matter of the thread
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I still think waiting for Cyber would just be best as well since they literally asked for us to slow things down
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so what do you think about crt right now? (I'm talking about tier)
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Yeah you’re right. This will be my last comment unless it’s about something that has to do with the op, but knowing that staff member votes are the only thing that matters and then seeing them make different interpretations for this when they wrongfully (and accidentally) did that in the original downgrade thread just doesn’t help me believe anything they have to say. @ProfessorKukui4Life , I was pretty heated, shouldn’t have included you though since you’re right that you said you don’t wanna take part in this discussion so that’s on me man
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well doesnt at least you're close to someone's opinion
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people get angry and hate the staff so why? Why do you think people do this? I think this is because no matter how much evidence is presented about something, the evidence is ignored. The staff may say "We are trying to prevent them from wanking" but I do not think that is the case here because I think Bleach fans provide enough evidence for low 2C / 2C both in the op and the 5 page discussion There are at least 4 5 statements there is evidence about the destruction of yhwach but the staff they still say "he can't" and say things outside of the context of the subject and the series. I say let's leave the staff / member conflict and first determine how the success is, then who is scaled from this success and the last level of success. I just want the staff from here to show a little empathy for the members. anyway, let's get back to our topic
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He didn't.
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Ganju literally says the Garganta would be destroyed.
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Not at all. The Soul King didn't resist.
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Does the fact that he didn't do it mean he couldn't do it?
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The Garganta would be destroyed =/= Yhwach was going to personally destroy the Garganta.
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The OP explains it clearly as well as the novel as how that would be the case.
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last thing to add to this,
The destruction clearly started on Soul Society, so if you really want to argue chain destruction (which is not implied by Yhwach) it would be:
Soul Society Dimension cease to exits > Dangai fall > Living World fall > Hueco Mundo/other dimensions > everything is mixed even concepts > Primordial world
Yhwach even opened a portal to went to Soul Society from another dimension, if his plan was to destroy Dangai he should have opened a portal inside it. But he didn't, because he never mentioned once it was his aim.
Yhwach was clearly conscious of his capabilities of destroying everything and bring back the primordial world from Soul Society.
to recap the contradictions:
- Dangai isn't a boundary to Hueco mundo
- Yhwach didn't start to destroy dangai
- Yhwach could have easily went to Dangai but he didnt
- Yhwach never mentioned once to destroy dangai
- Same for Askin that knew Yhwach's plan
- Explicit visual contradiction about Soul Society
- Yhwach was the epicenter from where his Reiastu started expanding
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U can see almost every one on their goodbye thread mentioning this problems
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So wait, Damage, what exactly do you think that Yhwach was going to do then? If you disagree with him just taking the universes themselves and putting them together, then additionally disagree that he was going to destroy the boundary between worlds (which is the garganta), what do you think he was going to do?
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Also what's this "oh he was just gonna destroy parts of it" bs comes from? That is not even a thing and pure nonsense.
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You know it doesn't matter how much you repeat this, right? I've come to a different conclusion than you have based on the evidence. Repeating "boundary is Garganta" isn't changing my position.
At this point I'm starting to believe you just don't read my posts.
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I don't understand what you mean by that? Whether the garganta is bound or not, we are told both by the mouth of the gangue that the yhwach will destroy it. He also has to destroy it in line with its purpose.
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Your conclusion literally makes no sense regarding Yhwach’s goal.
Your evidence is the early chapters of Rukia’s exposition where they describe how the imbalance of souls would effect the universe and you slapped it on to Yhwach.
Your evidence is the early chapters of Rukia’s exposition where they describe how the imbalance of souls would effect the universe and you slapped it on to Yhwach.
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I find it hilarious that a long janky "chain reaction" feat has been built up just to prevent the simplest interpretation of Garganta's direct destruction from being accepted.
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I read all of them, but you keep using the same arguments as if you were not reading any of the 10 people writing here
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Him not resisting doesn't lower his durability. They still struggle to cutt out his organs
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It's literally the only way to prevent the feat being quantified, which is funny since it seemed like Damage was relatively fine with the OP's interpretation until his argument about Ichigo not scaling was debunked.
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- Thread starter
- #674
I've decided to make a quick write up, due to the fact my request cant be honored (not blaming staff here)
So far it seems we agree that some structure has to be destroyed for Yhwach's feat. that much is undeniable.
Contention is whether or not it is the dangai or garganta. Before we proceed, Damage has told me he is fine with my option here:
If we proceed with the dangai option, yhwach scales to senna's blast because he has to output more energy than it to bust dangai, since dangai is shown to be more durable as a construct than senna's blast.
Simple and Clean scaling
What is the dangai
How large is it?
Hard to determine exactly, but if this diagram is 1 to 1, it is at least the length of the WOTL. We know two planets could travel through for 1 hour from both ends before meeting each other, but we do not know how fast the planets were going. What we do know is the following:
It is a cut off space divorced from the space and time of the other two realms. As mentioned prior, it is capable of taking senna's blasts and not be damaged at all.
How does yhwach's feat play out under this model
In both images depicting how the merge is started, yhwach releases an aoe of black energy that spreads out. it even rips out of the soul society planet's ground. It has to travel outwards to reach the dangai and remove it.
Is planet busting plausible?
I would say yes. When in kyoka's illusion, Yhwach tells ichigo to perish with the soul society, while destroying the area around him with energy.
He says he will end SS, and we know he is at least Small Planet+ in power in order to bust dangai as explained above.
Consider this inverse cosmology model. It shows SS, Dangai, and Wotl.
The dangai is in-between of both realms, but is disconnected from in the it is not part of their space and time. Now consider the visual depiction of the merge.
its an energy aoe spreading out.
Since dangai is split from SS, where the aoe starts, the burst needs to rip through the realm itself at bare minimum to get to it.
This means the planet at bare minimum would be destroyed, and most likely more damage done to the ss realm as well.
Garganta Model:
Under the garganta model, an argument is currently present not all of it has to be destroyed. However I don't think this works for the following reasons:
In volume 2, when mention turn things to primordial soup, that is not exactly the correct way to say it.
原初の海に帰す事だったと聞いている。(Second sentence from the right)
First four kanji “sea of origin”
So back to the world as it was prior:
So everything goes back to square one. Destroying a limited portion of the garganta does not ensure a return to things as they started in all of creation.
This is also relevant for the reio's death:
As agreed upon by damage prior, Ganju's statement is in context to Reio's death and the consequences that could happen from it. Garganta will be gone if he dies.
How was this going to play out?
Reio's death had boundary almost destroyed. So it stands to reason via the same affect, which makes sense under this model arguing the boundary and garganta are one and the same (more on that later)
We also agree the original plan was just that, return everything to zero via killing reio.
Given that reio's death will also remove garganta, and yhwach's merge was basically trying this all himself via an aoe, it was going to be a complete removal to return all to the sea of origin.
Planet busting model from the dangai model applies the same here, energy has to go out pf the ss realm to hit garganta.
Which model is more viable?
The most important question of all. Context is key here
For the dangai, we have a statement of it acting as a boundary between SS and WOTL
The argument so far for this including Hueco Mundo (given the merge will also destroy Hueco Mundo) is that via the universe collapse statements early on in the manga it will affect hueco mundo regardless despite it not being connected to the SS or Wotl. I would like to mention both rukia's and kisuke's statements are era;y on in the manga, before hueco mundo was conceptualized. All inverse diagrams in the manga do not show hueco mundo near the dangai, so we have direct evidence this model will destroy it.
More importantly, is garganta's confirmed removal should reio be dead. We know his death nearly destroyed the boundary. Why would the dangai destruction cause garganta to be busted? remember, yhwach's merge will achieve the same results, per the statement of taking everything back to the sea of origin.
Keep in mind the novels flat confirm the boundary was made by reio:
the boundary keeps all 3 worlds separate. Hueco Mundo is connected to dangai, so it cant function as this specific boundary.
What does garganta do?
Garganta encompasses all dimensions, serves as the fabric that separates them from one another, and even protects the reishi spaces within it (the stronghold in the last scan here is a kyogoke, or valley of screams that exist within garganta).
and no, the fabric is indeed talking about garganta:
the tears are openings of it, via spatial manipulation.
Garganta also works as a "boundary between life and death" in this context. It is a construct that encompasses al of creation, keeps the realms apart which is what separated life and death in the first place, was made by reio to hold that purpose, and will be removed should reio die.
Yhwach's merge will return things to the sea of origin.
Conclusion
we can discuss either take, but at bare minimum the feat should be taken as planet. I dont believe that top "bs" as some have have previously commented.
Dangai's take upscales from senna and can potentially supported.
Garganta is the full thing, given context.
Still at planet at the very least, and should scale to garganta.
Thus my original proposal.
thank you for reading. I will be absent for a few hours
So far it seems we agree that some structure has to be destroyed for Yhwach's feat. that much is undeniable.
Contention is whether or not it is the dangai or garganta. Before we proceed, Damage has told me he is fine with my option here:
If we proceed with the dangai option, yhwach scales to senna's blast because he has to output more energy than it to bust dangai, since dangai is shown to be more durable as a construct than senna's blast.
Simple and Clean scaling
What is the dangai
How large is it?
Hard to determine exactly, but if this diagram is 1 to 1, it is at least the length of the WOTL. We know two planets could travel through for 1 hour from both ends before meeting each other, but we do not know how fast the planets were going. What we do know is the following:
It is a cut off space divorced from the space and time of the other two realms. As mentioned prior, it is capable of taking senna's blasts and not be damaged at all.
How does yhwach's feat play out under this model
In both images depicting how the merge is started, yhwach releases an aoe of black energy that spreads out. it even rips out of the soul society planet's ground. It has to travel outwards to reach the dangai and remove it.
Is planet busting plausible?
I would say yes. When in kyoka's illusion, Yhwach tells ichigo to perish with the soul society, while destroying the area around him with energy.
He says he will end SS, and we know he is at least Small Planet+ in power in order to bust dangai as explained above.
Consider this inverse cosmology model. It shows SS, Dangai, and Wotl.
The dangai is in-between of both realms, but is disconnected from in the it is not part of their space and time. Now consider the visual depiction of the merge.
its an energy aoe spreading out.
Since dangai is split from SS, where the aoe starts, the burst needs to rip through the realm itself at bare minimum to get to it.
This means the planet at bare minimum would be destroyed, and most likely more damage done to the ss realm as well.
Garganta Model:
Under the garganta model, an argument is currently present not all of it has to be destroyed. However I don't think this works for the following reasons:
In volume 2, when mention turn things to primordial soup, that is not exactly the correct way to say it.
原初の海に帰す事だったと聞いている。(Second sentence from the right)
First four kanji “sea of origin”
So back to the world as it was prior:
So everything goes back to square one. Destroying a limited portion of the garganta does not ensure a return to things as they started in all of creation.
This is also relevant for the reio's death:
As agreed upon by damage prior, Ganju's statement is in context to Reio's death and the consequences that could happen from it. Garganta will be gone if he dies.
How was this going to play out?
Reio's death had boundary almost destroyed. So it stands to reason via the same affect, which makes sense under this model arguing the boundary and garganta are one and the same (more on that later)
We also agree the original plan was just that, return everything to zero via killing reio.
Given that reio's death will also remove garganta, and yhwach's merge was basically trying this all himself via an aoe, it was going to be a complete removal to return all to the sea of origin.
Planet busting model from the dangai model applies the same here, energy has to go out pf the ss realm to hit garganta.
Which model is more viable?
The most important question of all. Context is key here
For the dangai, we have a statement of it acting as a boundary between SS and WOTL
The argument so far for this including Hueco Mundo (given the merge will also destroy Hueco Mundo) is that via the universe collapse statements early on in the manga it will affect hueco mundo regardless despite it not being connected to the SS or Wotl. I would like to mention both rukia's and kisuke's statements are era;y on in the manga, before hueco mundo was conceptualized. All inverse diagrams in the manga do not show hueco mundo near the dangai, so we have direct evidence this model will destroy it.
More importantly, is garganta's confirmed removal should reio be dead. We know his death nearly destroyed the boundary. Why would the dangai destruction cause garganta to be busted? remember, yhwach's merge will achieve the same results, per the statement of taking everything back to the sea of origin.
Keep in mind the novels flat confirm the boundary was made by reio:
the boundary keeps all 3 worlds separate. Hueco Mundo is connected to dangai, so it cant function as this specific boundary.
What does garganta do?
Garganta encompasses all dimensions, serves as the fabric that separates them from one another, and even protects the reishi spaces within it (the stronghold in the last scan here is a kyogoke, or valley of screams that exist within garganta).
and no, the fabric is indeed talking about garganta:
the tears are openings of it, via spatial manipulation.
Garganta also works as a "boundary between life and death" in this context. It is a construct that encompasses al of creation, keeps the realms apart which is what separated life and death in the first place, was made by reio to hold that purpose, and will be removed should reio die.
Yhwach's merge will return things to the sea of origin.
Conclusion
we can discuss either take, but at bare minimum the feat should be taken as planet. I dont believe that top "bs" as some have have previously commented.
Dangai's take upscales from senna and can potentially supported.
Garganta is the full thing, given context.
Still at planet at the very least, and should scale to garganta.
Thus my original proposal.
thank you for reading. I will be absent for a few hours
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- Thread starter
- #675
also who the heck is arguing the clans scale to prime reio....
huh
huh
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- Thread starter
- #677
guys please read my post above
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This is what Ganju says. This is not the same thing as him saying "Yhwach is going to blow up the Garganta with his AP". I don't agree with your interpretation.
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- Thread starter
- #679
...................
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So ur proposition is
"5-A, possibly/likely 3-A/low 2-C"?
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