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World of Darkness: Cosmology 1.5 TM/INC/LLC/CR

Thank you very much for helping out, DontTalk. I am fine with if your conclusions are applied, as usual. 🙏
 
So it'll be like this:

The universe: 1-A+

The multiverse high 1-A

The Tapestry: 0

The Low Umbra: 0

The High Umbra: 0

The Horizon: 0

The Tellurian: 0

The Void: 0

Alder Bole, the World Tree: 0

The Supernal: 0
 
Gasper said:
So it'll be like this:

The universe: 1-A+

The multiverse high 1-A

The Tapestry: 0

The Low Umbra: 0

The High Umbra: 0

The Horizon: 0

The Tellurian: 0

The Void: 0

Alder Bole, the World Tree: 0

The Supernal: 0
Click to expand...
I'm pretty disappointed that the universe is 1-a+, but I have to follow the majority.
 
Gasper said:
So it'll be like this:

The universe: 1-A+

The multiverse high 1-A

The Tapestry: 0

The Low Umbra: 0

The High Umbra: 0

The Horizon: 0

The Tellurian: 0

The Void: 0

Alder Bole, the World Tree: 0

The Supernal: 0
Click to expand...
Only if DontTalk agrees with it.
 
Udlmaster said:
The Upgrade is simple and horrific in equal factor and I am doing it because I am evil and will never know rest.

Introduction:​

I have put off upgrading WoD because I am lazy, but I've chosen to go full Nuclear Gandi and will establish that none shall take my crown as Worst person. So here we are, WoD's biggest upgrade yet.

​

In essence, none of the scaling from Mine and Ultima's scaling has changed, simply the tier as everything is bumped up many spaces due to a discovery, thus, Ultima's blog remains relevant, and ultimately little changes.

The Changes:
Functionally, there will be no additional changes to the Powers and abilities of the current profiles. Some profiles will be reworked once this has passed, but that will be shown at another time, for now, let's focus on the revision.

First and foremost, the changes to the cosmology. After outlining the general tiers for each part of the World of Darkness Cosmology, found here, but for the purposes of the thread, I will reiterate for your reading pleasure.

The Main Physical Universe, the Tapestry, itself constitutes the entirety of Imagination within it;

The very imaginative people who inhabit the world of Darkness have thought up things such as the Tegmark Multiverses;

The Tegmark Multiverse isn't a basic one, but one supported by Set theory now, THAT'S RIGHT, WE FOUND IT:


The Universe itself, has many layers, all equally real, and even having contradictory ideas about how reality, humanity, or anything else came about.

There are an infinite amount of these levels of reality, and one would lose all duality when falling through them.

Conclusions:

The new scaling for WoD is as followed, all views expressed here are supported by the blog (link found above) which has all the relevant citations for any curious individual:

The Universe: Low 2-C to High 1-A

The Multiverse: 0

The Tapestry: 0

The Low Umbra: 0

The High Umbra: 0

The Horizon: 0

The Tellurian: 0

The Void: 0

Alder Bole, the World Tree: 0

The Supernal: 0

Votes:

Those in Support: Me :), Gasper, Dread, ShivaShakti, Lewis, Deonmont, Recap_, Timeless, Setsuna_Tenma, Dinoanime7, LevelUp99, Xearsay, Greatsage13, Qawsedf234, Elizhha

Those in Opposition:
Click to expand...
Sounds good to me
 
Qawsedf234 said:
The issue I mostly see here, is that even under this assumption stuff like the Umbra or the Void would still classify for both High 1-A and 0 since they operate on levels similar to Inaccessible Cardinal sets and inaccessibility with lower spaces.
Click to expand...
They could. Idk. How much superior to Set Theory stuff are they?

deonment said:
We currently define High 1-A as either being beyond the framework of 1-A or any extension of a 1-A hierarchy.
I don't have to bother with the former way to reach High 1-A, as the latter is enough.
Do you agree that an infinite amount of alephs can be iterated and extended off of Aleph Null?
Do you agree that from Aleph 2 and on, each additional Aleph is 1-A and infinitely more than the one before?
Do you agree that the class of all alephs is unreachable to this infinite extension of Alephs, despite Aleph Omega (1-A+) and cardinals infinitely more than it being a part of it?
If you agree, as this hierarchy cannot reach the class of all Alephs, then something of its size must be equal to High 1-A, given it being unreachable to any additional extension to a 1-A hierarchy.
So WoD would retain the tiering proposed within the OP.
Click to expand...
You're invoking a class of all cardinals, which is not part of set theory. That this exists, is bigger and part of the universe seems not be given, or is it?

Lewis said:
NBG is a set theory and a conservative extension of ZFC with a system of classes that can contain all sets. You say that all sets of aleph omega equal1-a+ which class system can hold large cardinal and sets. At least it should get h1a because it can allow classes to be defined by formulas whose quantifiers range over classes. NBG is finitely axiomatizable, while ZFC and MK are not.💀
Click to expand...
The problem is that this structure isn't mentioned in the lore from what I see.
 
DontTalkDT said:
They could. Idk. How much superior to Set Theory stuff are they?


You're invoking a class of all cardinals, which is not part of set theory. That this exists, is bigger and part of the universe seems not be given, or is it?


The problem is that this structure isn't mentioned in the lore from what I see.
Click to expand...
So your're saying the universe would be 1-A+?
 
Lewis said:
The smallest of them especially will give quite a bit to have the visitors return to Earth and write a research paper studying their structures and promoting them as interesting environments in which to do mathematics. Especially if they can do so in a way that makes them look better than Set Theory.
Click to expand...
They have more knowledge than set theory.
 
Gasper said:
So your're saying the universe would be 1-A+?
Click to expand...
If the universe is Sat Theory level, then yes. Set Theory is more or less top of 1-A+. (At least if we allow ourselves to extrapolate that much)

Lewis said:
They have more knowledge than set theory.
Click to expand...
Which doesn't mean this specific knowledge. ZFC + Continuum Hypothesis is also more than ZFC.
 
I have in principle no problem with stacking further levels unto it. (albeit I, again, have not looked that far into the lore of this)
Just that when it comes to Set Theory as basis, it should be stacking upon something 1A+, instead of High 1-A, which would correspondingly lower the other stuff.
Click to expand...
I mean you may have a point but the main problem is with the cosmology blog Udl is using. The physical reality is already 1-A, well before they modified the blog. Actually I should ask Udl where they put physical reality before they proposed this thread.
They could. Idk. How much superior to Set Theory stuff are they?
Click to expand...
Giving this is only the lower structures it’s very likely. Physical reality with it being 1-A+, by your logic would be below the infinite levels of the Tapestry. Which is below the Near Umbra, and so on so on. Cosmology blogs go in depth with this.

Anyways feel like we shouldn’t conclude this until Ultima gives off his opinion on DontTalk’s statement.
 
Dinoanime7 said:
I mean you may have a point but the main problem is with the cosmology blog Udl is using. The physical reality is already 1-A, well before they modified the blog. Actually I should ask Udl where they put physical reality before they proposed this thread.

Giving this is only the lower structures it’s very likely. Physical reality with it being 1-A+, by your logic would be below the infinite levels of the Tapestry. Which is below the Near Umbra, and so on so on. Cosmology blogs go in depth with this.

Anyways feel like we shouldn’t conclude this until Ultima gives off his opinion on DontTalk’s statement.
Click to expand...
Antvasima said:
Well, so-so regarding democratic structure. You are obviously free to try to convince him otherwise, but he still has the final say regarding this issue.
Click to expand...
Can you (@Antvasima) contact Ultima to see if he agrees with @DontTalkDT on the proposed changes?
 
DontTalkDT said:
If the universe is Sat Theory level, then yes. Set Theory is more or less top of 1-A+. (At least if we allow ourselves to extrapolate that much)


Which doesn't mean this specific knowledge. ZFC + Continuum Hypothesis is also more than ZFC
Click to expand...
Do you agree with that?
Gasper said:
So it'll be like this:

The universe: 1-A+

The multiverse high 1-A

The Tapestry: 0

The Low Umbra: 0

The High Umbra: 0

The Horizon: 0

The Tellurian: 0

The Void: 0

Alder Bole, the World Tree: 0

The Supernal: 0
Click to expand...
 
Dinoanime7 said:
Like I said it’s best we wait for Ultima’s thoughts on DontTalk’s new arrangement, he was the one who concluded universes are High 1-A, it wouldn’t feel right to conclude this without his thoughts.
Click to expand...
I have contacted Ultima personally. He said that he’ll get to it “soon”.
 
Lewis said:
Less of a specific being than a class of them, the Toposes are some of the most baffling denizens of the Platonic Realm. They can be found in the Digital Borderlands where each has carved out a territory where they make the rules. These territories only ever grow over time, and seem to relate to how much they've been visited. It pushed, some will suggest that the majority of the Platonic Realm itself is simply the territory of a single Topos that has grown particularly dominant: Set Theory. Each of them represents an alternate system of logic capable of handling a complex system of mathematics, albeit one that differs from the standard one in either subtle or obvious ways. As such, though they look largely human, each of them will have something about them that is ... off. Extra limbs, strange coloration, or being entirely flat are all variations that have been reported. Each is unique, and all of them are rivals, though more similar ones will get along better and have appearances that reflect their similarities. Visitors find the Toposes are particularly good for helping them solve puzzles. As alternate logics, they are able to produce strange and unexpected solutions to problems, exploiting information that seems disconnected but placing some sort of logical chain between them. They can provide training in Enigmas (even allowing characters to reach the sixth dot of it) as well as the mathematical Abilities of Science and Academics. All they want in exchange is Sleeper attention. The smallest of them especially will give quite a bit to have the visitors return to Earth and write a research paper studying their structures and promoting them as interesting environments in which to do mathematics. Especially if they can do so in a way that makes them look better than Set Theory.
-
And it seems like Toposes can do it better than set theory.
Click to expand...
Udlmaster said:
Well, given that the Axiom of Choice and other Axioms are tools which Mages can selectively use, doesn't that in and of itself speak to the existence of a Set theory without the Axiom applied, meaning Zermelo-Fraenkel Set theory is 1 of the many different Set theories in WoD beyond the standard Axiomatic form of Set theory.

For example, in WoD there's a higher branch of Mathematics called "Hypermath", which is essentially Mathematics on the level of Mages, as their understanding of the Universe and their insights are utterly beyond that of a simple human (This is in the same book btw);
Click to expand...
@Cat275
 
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