Why no one in Dragon Ball is 2-C

[TheGod]

lost me at 4 galaxies

Lol

 

[Nullflowerblush]

A 3-A "Universe" can't exist.

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1) Why can't one travel from U7 to other universe via a spaceship?

Spoiler: Bulma

2) Why can't goku teleport to other universes?
3) Why can't goku and co sense fighters from other universes?

Out of range.

 

[Tarang123]

Yeah i am good. Just refuting that other guy who accused people here of being biased towards DB. You can buy your required meds though dude

Lol what? The wiki is hilariously biased against DB. It would be sheer ignorance to claim that there is no bias against it. Upgrades and Downgrades are completely closed for no reason other than them not wanting to deal with it. Standards are completely changed just to keep DB from reaching higher tiers such as high godly and other stuff. It took a shit load of time until Tier 5 OG DB was finally accepted along with other stuff. Saying that the wiki doesn't have a history of bias when it comes to DB is quite stretching.

 

[Reio35]

Lol what? The wiki is hilariously biased against DB. It would be sheer ignorance to claim that there is no bias against it. Upgrades and Downgrades are completely closed for no reason other than them not wanting to deal with it. Standards are completely changed just to keep DB from reaching higher tiers such as high godly and other stuff. It took a shit load of time until Tier 5 OG DB was finally accepted along with other stuff. Saying that the wiki doesn't have a history of bias when it comes to DB is quite stretching.

The opposite tbh. The have Infinite zamasu at low 2c despite no evidence saying he merged with the universe.

 

[Darksmash]

Wdym by events across different universes? Events that happen in the world of void or whatever aren't a sufficient debunk due to the world of void literally being outside the 12 universes.

Things like communications that happen between different universes, or events that are broadcasted across all universes (such as ToP introduction) all have a common time of occurrence in a universal system.

 

[Darksmash]

You are a moron.
The reason why dbs is low 2-C is because universes by default are considered low 2-C on this site, as they should be. A 3-A "Universe" can't exist. The entire concept is complete bullshit. Do you even know what a 3-A "Universe" even imply? It means a "Universe" without space-time, which is complete and utter bullshit. A universe can't dxist without space-time. Space-time is an integral part of a universe. The first thing that happened when the big bang occurred was the expansion of space-time. Matter came much later. Only VS battle autists like you can make a ******** conceot like a 3-A "Universe".
If DB universe were all without space-time and just a chunk of matter floating in a "timeline/multiverse", then answer this:
1) Why can't one travel from U7 to other universe via a spaceship?
2) Why can't goku teleport to other universes?
3) Why can't goku and co sense fighters from other universes?

It is as if the universes are just like the HTC, which is a confirmed separate dimension from the universe, but on a universal scale(HTC is planetary).
And lastly, daizenshuu states that the universe is based on reality. And as far as I know, the real universe is not "3-A".
So I will recommend you to refrain from making such inflammatory statements against dragon ball again.

Looks like someone doesn't understand what we mean by space time

 

[KLOL506]

I don't think we need to point out why the Snake Way and "4 galaxies" arguments are pure bullshit. Just ask Super Shenron, on whose bodies we can see countless of galaxies, and let's also not forget that the DBS anime has its own universe globe map different from what OP shows. Or the fact that these "4 galaxies" are actually 4 QUADRANTS which we concluded in the CRT for DBGT upgrades WITH HARD EVIDENCE, where it is clearly shown in Nuova Shenron's scene that there are several dozens of hundreds of galaxies right behind him in that scene.

Also completely beautiful how you used the "The darkness that stretches out into infinity and illuminates galaxies. Dozens to hundreds millions of light years away, beyond the light of the stars, there are uncountable monsters beyond imagination." statement to conclude that the universe is only hundreds of millions of light years in size while completely ignoring the "Darkness stretches out to infinity" part right before the "hundreds of millions of years" statement appears. Common sense should dictate that the "dozens to hundreds of millions of light years away" here only refers to the lit-up part of the universe after which it clearly states the "darkness of the universe to have uncountable monsters beyond imagination", which blatantly states that the darkness isn't the end of the universal structure itself.

I also don't need to point out that YOU ARE NOT SUPPOSED TO USE DBS MANGA AND THEN COMBINE ITS ELEMENTS WITH THE DBS ANIME. The two are completely different continuities and CANNOT, I REPEAT, CANNOT BE USED TO CROSS-SCALE EACH OTHER IN ANY MANNER WHATSOEVER.

 

[Lemonade125]

This gon be good

 

[Agnaa]

The very fact that events across different universes take place at the same time and follow a consistent universal time system and progression of events should show they aren't different space time continuums. But we have to shut off our brains for wank apparently.

Series can use some bullshit to have events co-ordinated across timelines while still explicitly being different timelines. I really don't think that should be a disqualifying factor.

And really, if we tried to go hard into "they have to be completely different space time continuums" that would force us to downgrade 99% of multiversal characters in fiction, since they aren't completely isolated. They're part of a broader multiverse (a higher spatio-temporal construct that encompasses and links lower ones). Completely causally isolated timelines are extremely rare, and by definition would rule out any feats beyond timeline-level.

 

[Sus]

If you think DB cosmology is a headache, wait till you get into the Nasuverse’s cosmology as it is massive as hell.

Edit: Also because I attempted to do a blog for Nasuverse as well in the past.

Cosmology for the Nasuverse

debatesjungle.fandom.com

Digimon That Needed more than 1 blog to explain the cosmology : weak disgusts me.

 

[KLOL506]

Digimon That Needed more than 1 blog to explain the cosmology : weakness disgusts me.

FTFY

 

[Darksmash]

Series can use some bullshit to have events co-ordinated across timelines while still explicitly being different timelines. I really don't think that should be a disqualifying factor.

And really, if we tried to go hard into "they have to be completely different space time continuums" that would force us to downgrade 99% of multiversal characters in fiction, since they aren't completely isolated. They're part of a broader multiverse (a higher spatio-temporal construct that encompasses and links lower ones). Completely causally isolated timelines are extremely rare, and by definition would rule out any feats beyond timeline-level.

Well even if we consider the possibility that they are different space time continuums(although it doesn't really work in context), we should still be strict about feats and see whether the "universal destruction" is including the destruction of all of time in context or not. In Dragon Ball's case nothing really points to that at all.

 

[GilverTheProtoAngelo]

Series can use some bullshit to have events co-ordinated across timelines while still explicitly being different timelines. I really don't think that should be a disqualifying factor.

And really, if we tried to go hard into "they have to be completely different space time continuums" that would force us to downgrade 99% of multiversal characters in fiction, since they aren't completely isolated. They're part of a broader multiverse (a higher spatio-temporal construct that encompasses and links lower ones). Completely causally isolated timelines are extremely rare, and by definition would rule out any feats beyond timeline-level.

Exactly,Exactly!!!! I have said this exact same points so many times....but no one listens.


Timelines can be ditto similar to each other....doesn't mean they are same.
Its like saying two identical twins are same person.

Timelines can be parallel, congruent, identical and move forward at same rate in synchronization. Doesn't mean they aren't 2C.

 

[GilverTheProtoAngelo]

Well even if we consider the possibility that they are different space time continuums(although it doesn't really work in context), we should still be strict about feats and see whether the "universal destruction" is including the destruction of all of time in context or not. In Dragon Ball's case nothing really points to that at all.

Agnaa is talking about cosmology.

Not destructive feats.....soooo.

 

[Agnaa]

Well even if we consider the possibility that they are different space time continuums(although it doesn't really work in context), we should still be strict about feats and see whether the "universal destruction" is including the destruction of all of time in context or not. In Dragon Ball's case nothing really points to that at all.

Oh 100%, idk anything about DB's situation, I glanced through this thread to see if I could learn more and felt the need to reply to your post. idk whether DB qualifies or not.

 

[Sus]

FTFY

It was supposed to be "the weak" but thanks

 

[KLOL506]

Oh 100%, idk anything about DB's situation, I glanced through this thread to see if I could learn more and felt the need to reply to your post. idk whether DB qualifies or not.

I'm pretty sure AKM stressed about this (Specifically for the Zeno feat) in the Tier 2 CRT IIRC, about how DB qualifies.

I've already messaged him but we both know he's not gonna be happy to see this at all.

 

[Roun12]

AKM seeing this thread:

 

[TheGod]

This thread is pure meme material lmao

 

[Darksmash]

Agnaa is talking about cosmology.

Not destructive feats.....soooo.

Well the cosmology itself has issues as well, as I pointed out, but if I am thrown with the "We can't do that because it would cause site wide changes" stuff then I can't really provide any counter for that. It is what it is. But I will maintain my position regarding the feats for now as nothing ever points at the destruction of all of time in any of the feats except some vague implications in Zeno's feat.

 

[Agnaa]

Well the cosmology itself has issues as well, as I pointed out, but if I am thrown with the "We can't do that because it would cause site wide changes" stuff then I can't really provide any counter for that. It is what it is. But I will maintain my position regarding the feats for now as nothing ever points at the destruction of all of time in any of the feats except some vague implications in Zeno's feat.

Even without site-wide changes, I just think it's silly reasoning (I'm okay with site-wide changes if they have good reasoning). Two timelines can have a connection at corresponding points in time despite being separate space-times. They don't need to be the same timeline to form correspondences like that.

I'm not very familiar with manifolds, but I don't think they both need to be part of the same 4-manifold to do stuff like that. And if you're tossing out mathematics to say that any interactions like that makes them the same space-time, then it just seems like a pretty useless way of describing fiction.

 

[Darksmash]

Two timelines can have a connection at corresponding points in time despite being separate space-times

What about all the timelines following a common calendar? It just feels really weird to say the 12 universes in dragon ball are different timelines with all the stuff that happens in the plot.

Though I suppose a disconnected space can also be regarded as a seperate timeline, but in that case I question where the conclusion that universal destruction would equate to eradicating the entire worldline of that universe comes from in this case.

 

[GilverTheProtoAngelo]

What about all the timelines following a common calendar? It just feels really weird to say the 12 universes in dragon ball are different timelines with all the stuff that happens in the plot.

You can have two separated timelines being so so so similar that only difference between them is a singular atom shifted aside a few nanometer..... i.e virtually and practically indescernible to veiwer unless told.
If you looked at them they would have same calendar...... so.....as you can see... even that does not work as a anti-feat.

 

[Agnaa]

What about all the timelines following a common calendar? It just feels really weird to say the 12 universes in dragon ball are different timelines with all the stuff that happens in the plot.

Though I suppose a disconnected space can also be regarded as a seperate timeline, but in that case I question where the conclusion that universal destruction would equate to eradicating the entire worldline of that universe comes from in this case.

If there's another timeline so similar to ours that our solar system, Earth, and humanity all arose at the same time, it wouldn't be very hard for them to follow a common calendar. Hell, even without that, a situation like this, where the connections between timelines don't move relatively forwards/backwards in time, could have them follow a common calendar with some co-ordination. Realistically that'd end up being tough for characters/technology to achieve, but a lot of series seem to operate under that, and have various excuses for it (i.e. that adding movement through time makes things more difficult).

Maybe there is other stuff in the plot that contradicts it, I've only seen DBZ.

I hesitate to speak on the cosmology of series I'm not familiar with, but universal destruction shouldn't be assumed to equate to worldline destruction. There should be good indications, like demonstrations of that, explanations that that's what's meant, or defined and consistent terminology showing that (if a "blargh" is defined and consistently treated as meaning "an entire timeline", then "blargh destruction" would be Low 2-C).

 

[Hasty12345]

IMO the biggest problems with DB's cosmology being legit 2-C are the anti-feats such as Super Shenron's lights traveling to all the domes and the simple fact they're never depicted as separate timelines.

I don't think them having synchronous time is inherently an issue, otherwise MWI cosmologies would be low 2-C as well.

 

[GilverTheProtoAngelo]

@Agnaa
I am so stealing this image for myself.......

 

[Nullflowerblush]

it's just a ladder

 

[GilverTheProtoAngelo]

IMO the biggest problems with DB's cosmology being legit 2-C are the anti-feats such as Super Shenron's lights traveling to all the domes and the simple fact they're never depicted as separate timelines.

That feat would by more stricter skepticism would even disqualify those universes being separate spaces.....let alone separate times.

Since light travels in space after all, it isn't supposed to crossover to different isolated spatial dimensions.

So in this case it would be like a dimensional traveling light. Not an uncommon depiction in fiction.

so not an anti-feat as well.

 

[Hasty12345]

So in this case it would be like a dimensional traveling light. Not an uncommon depiction in fiction.

don't care about other fictions.

Since light travels in space after all, it isn't supposed to crossover to different isolated spatial dimensions.

Shenlong was visible from all universes, which implies the literal dome interpretation is how the cosmology is literally and not metaphorically. This poses a problem because it's very clear the space between the universes is not higher dimensional in nature and that the 12 universes are strictly held within 4D spacetime. This is supported by the fact a change in a timeline produces a new multiverse, not universe. There's no indication this cosmology meets the 2-C standards whatsoever.

That feat would by more stricter skepticism would even disqualify those universes being separate spaces.....let alone separate times.

Sure, I mean, it wouldn't change any tiers other than Zeno based on what's currently accepted.

 

[GilverTheProtoAngelo]

don't care about other fictions

I mean doesn't really matter whether you or I don't care or care. Point is such peculiar feats are common and it wouldn't fair to hold DB accountable for it alone....not to mention the unfair skepticism of the feat causing an entire shade to be thrown at cosmology.

Shenlong was visible from all universes, which implies the literal dome interpretation is how the cosmology is literally and not metaphorically. This poses a problem because it's very clear the space between the universes is not higher dimensional in nature and that the 12 universes are strictly held within 4D spacetime. This is supported by the fact a change in a timeline produces a new multiverse, not universe. There's no indication this cosmology meets the 2-C standards whatsoever.

What size is Shenlong?? Galaxy- Big Galaxy size right??

I mean...its wierd enough that a Galaxy sized object is somehow visible and discernible to everyone accross different spatial dimensions. By this logic....entire timeline(U1 uptill U12) size would have to be reduced to 3C or something. Even that is a highball since sure as hell in real life outer galaxies aren't visible to us humans in normal size to naked eyes.
Imagine how small DB cosmology would have to be for it to show Shenlong to everyone.

So even on the most fundamental aspect your skepticism is unfair. Utterly I might add.

Like I mentioned, its just a peculiar and crazy feat of displaying oneself....but not an antifeat for U7 or the encompassing timeline

Sure, I mean, it wouldn't change any tiers other than Zeno based on what's currently accepted.

Sure it does....we would have to make entire timeline 3C or some such if we use Shenlong as antifeat. U7 would probably be 4A.

 

[Agnaa]

I mean doesn't really matter whether you or I don't care or care. Point is such peculiar feats are common and it wouldn't fair to hold DB accountable for it alone....not to mention the unfair skepticism of the feat causing an entire shade to be thrown at cosmology.

Then don't hold only DB accountable, mention what the other verses are, and any which don't have explanations or other justifications for how light is seen in other timelines should have it taken as an anti-feat, and be downgraded if there aren't enough other proper feats outweighing that.

By this logic....entire timeline(U1 uptill U12) size would have to be reduced to 3C or something.

I feel like "A galaxy-sized object is visible across the universe" and "A galaxy-sized object is visible across what is purported to be other timelines" are issues on different levels. One gives characters ludicrously good perception (or has a character's light not properly decay in visibility), the other is just flat-out inconceivable.

Especially if there's other information establishing the DB universe to be larger than 3-C, and if there isn't other information explaining how Shenlong could be seen from other universes.

 

[Hasty12345]

You're focusing on the wrong point. Shenlong being compared to galaxies (and dwarf them in size) and being visible from all the universes is a size discrepancy yes, but it's the fact even without the size discrepancy he can technically be seen from these supposed different temporal dimensions is the issue. it shows that the "universe in a ball" is how this cosmology is intended to be viewed, and not just a metaphor. And with this is mind, we can literally see the 12 universes are not separated or even indicated to be separated by an unquantifiable amount of higher dimensional space, it's simply just not implied, in fact the opposite is. It's implied a finite, quantifiable 3D space separates the universes. whether or not it can literally be calculated is irrelevant.

If you want to take it to the absolute extreme, then sure, downgrade the universes to like 4-A in size, but that's clearly taking problem with the wrong point.

 

[GilverTheProtoAngelo]

Then don't hold only DB accountable, mention what the other verses are, and any which don't have explanations or other justifications for how light is seen in other timelines should have it taken as an anti-feat, and be downgraded if there aren't enough other proper feats outweighing that.

I am principally opposed to even taking such instances as anti feats.
So I am not going to point to any instances I find.

I feel like "A galaxy-sized object is visible across the universe" and "A galaxy-sized object is visible across what is purported to be other timelines" are issues on different levels.

Especially if there's other information establishing the DB universe to be larger than 3-C, and if there isn't other information explaining how Shenlong could be seen from other universes.

I was humoring Hasty's proposal....I should have elaborated.

I meant even if we take U7 as 3A.....we still cannot take the Shenlong feat seriously.

Humans aren't supposed to observe the nromal of size Galaxy sized objects outside of boundaries of spatial limits of an universes.
Not mentioning distance as factor.

If we can suspend our belief and take the feat as just outlandish for sake of size... we can certainly suspend our disbelief that Shenlong is observable form different space-times.

We can't conveniently take parts of a feat to use as anti-feat and disregard the rest.....especially when one finds out that fully taking the instance at face value as anti-feat goes even against most blatant showings of cosmological sizes...let alone the blatant disregard for logic the feat has in first place like being a galaxy sized object be visisble to humans from outside universe.

 

[Stefano4444]

The very fact that events across different universes take place at the same time and follow a consistent universal time system and progression of events should show they aren't different space time continuums.

I mean, that doesn't necessarely debunk the possibility of the universes having their own space-time, their time flows could simply match each other.

Then don't hold only DB accountable, mention what the other verses are, and any which don't have explanations or other justifications for how light is seen in other timelines should have it taken as an anti-feat, and be downgraded if there aren't enough other proper feats outweighing that.

On that you don't need to worry, if we start to get this strict when it come to Tier 2, Dragon Ball will be far from be the only verse that its going to get downplayed.

 

[Hasty12345]

We can't conveniently take parts of a feat to use as anti-feat and disregard the rest.....especially when one finds out that fully taking the instance at face value as anti-feat goes even against most blatant showings of cosmological sizes...let alone the blatant disregard for logic the feat has in first place like being a galaxy sized object be visisble to humans from outside universe.

Then sure, The universes are single galaxy size as they're literally depicted that way.



Makes Shenlong's size consistent tbh

 

[Agnaa]

We can't conveniently take parts of a feat to use as anti-feat and disregard the rest

I just disagree. I think that situations can be anti-feats on two levels. If a character gets hit and injured by a slow and weak character, it can be the case that they're more consistently faster but not stronger than that character, and so the "weak" portion of the anti-feat can downgrade dura, but the "slow" portion doesn't have to downgrade speed at the same time, and can be considered a contradicted low-end.

On that you don't need to worry, if we start to get this strict when it come to Tier 2, Dragon Ball will be far from be the only verse that its going to get downplayed.

Everyone's a wanker to someone and a downplayer to someone else. I just consider it to be applying common-sense levels of scrutiny informed by proper knowledge of how things work.

 

[GilverTheProtoAngelo]

Then sure, The universes are single galaxy size as they're literally depicted that way.



Makes Shenlong's size consistent tbh

Good luck with that.

3B sized Whis.

 

[Hasty12345]

Good luck with that.

3B sized Whis.

again, wrong point.

 

[GilverTheProtoAngelo]

I just disagree. I think that situations can be anti-feats on two levels. If a character gets hit and injured by a slow and weak character, it can be the case that they're more consistently faster but not stronger than that character, and so the "weak" portion of the anti-feat can downgrade dura, but the "slow" portion doesn't have to downgrade speed at the same time.

Honestly I didn't understand your example exactly.

But just to say that maybe your example is different type of anti-feat which is furthest from comparison to nature of example at hand...... this shenlong feat is breaking reality and logic anyways no matter what the intensity...why should we use any part of as anti-feat to begin with?

 

[Agnaa]

Honestly I didn't understand your example exactly.

Which part didn't you understand?

But just to say that maybe your example is different type of anti-feat which is furthest from comparison to nature of example at hand...... this shenlong feat is breaking reality and logic anyways no matter what the intensity...why should we use any part of as anti-feat to begin with?

I think all anti-feats break reality and logic anyway. They either need to be ignored, or handwaved with justifications not provided in the text. Handwaving "A character was visible at distances where ordinary humans shouldn't be able to perceive them" is easier than "A character was visible in an entirely different space-time where the light reflecting off of them shouldn't have traveled to in the first place".