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- #41
Yeah, hence why I said Uni+?
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Bye-bye Multiversal Miraculous
- Thread starter TheOrangeGuy09
- Start date
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- #42
Yup, although overall cosmology is 2-A — Gabriel outright says there are infinite universes.
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You still don't get it. I explained why they scale to it.
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You're the one that don't get it.
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I think Gabriel mentioning that there are infinity of universes can be interpreted as a figure of speech that is used to emphasize that there are many of them, without being necessarily literal. This makes sense because at the very beginning of the episode, Tikki (a more reliable source of information) clearly states that there are billions of universes. If they were truly infinite, I think it would have been mentioned by Tikki.
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I agree with this. Tikki, a much reliable source than Gabriel states the existence of billions of universes. Given that she exists in all of the universes her statement should be taken more seriously to Gabriel. Gabriel's statement seems hyperbolic.
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The context to Tikki saying that there are billions is that she forgot to tell Marinette something and she was crazy that day. On the other hand Gabriel read the Guardians book which contains information that not even the kwamis are allowed to know or speak of.
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I don’t get how Tikki’s statement would be discredited anyway, even if he read the Guardian’s book he could’ve still made a hyperbole to define the amount of universes.
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Tikki was apparently created before Time was even a thing since she was the first Kwami in existence so technically she is also not just billions of years old.
Gabriel is not exactly playful so I don't see why would he use an hipérbole
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Tikki was created when the universe was created. She's not saying it as in her age - she said, quote. "I've lived for billions of years in every single one of these universes." She exists in every universe and if she states there billions of universes, then we can take her statement as true. While Gabriel's statement is contradicted by this and holds little credibility. The statement is hyperbolic to exaggerate the many universes that exist.
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- #52
We by default take infinite universes as a valid statement unless something hints otherwise.
The mention of a part of a bigger whole does not disprove the existence of a bigger whole.
Doesn’t really matter because nobody scales to it, but here it is.
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Gabriel's statement is contradicted by Tikki's statement, which I explained. But yeah, no one scales to it so it doesn't really matter. [Unless you count Gimmi and the whole Kwami Omnipresence thing]
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She says there are billions of universes not that "there are only billions of universes", as far as we know not every single universe created the miraculous so doesn't necessarily even see all of the universes. Or worse this Tikki just hasn't lived through all the universes since she doesn't actually know the future only past and present.
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If Tikki says there's billions of universes, we take it as such. We don't need statements like "there are only billions of universes". Tikki exists in every universe, as we see her in the Miraculous Paris Alternate Universe, with the alternative holders. The fact she doesn't know the future is a unrelated. She verbatim states she exists in every single universe, and the fact that Kwami's represent concepts, which can only exist once. Tikki was the first Kwami, who was created upon the creation of the universe, which apparently occurred billions of years ago.
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She says she exists in all those billions of universes not that she exists in all universes. You do need statements like that when there are others that state that they are infinite. If she was created when the universe was created then she wouldn't exist in all universes, and if there can only exist once then she was created in 1 universe so then she wouldn't exist in others.
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Tikki: They're the holders of the Miraculous of the Ladybug and the Black Cat from one of the billions of parallel universes in existence, and those two are not very nice versions.
Marinette: Parallel universes? Why didn't you tell me about this?
Tikki: It's just, I've lived for billions of years in every single one of these universes simultaneously, and there simply aren't enough hours in your lifetime to tell you even the tiniest bit about it... so, I choose to stick to the basics and make the most of the time we have together.
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If Tikki says 'one of the billions of universes in existence,' it’s pretty clear she’s talking about a finite number. Like when she says 'in existence' makes it sound like she’s referring to all the universes that exist, not just some of them. If there were more than billions—like an infinite number—she would’ve said it differently. By saying 'one of the billions,' she’s already setting a limit, which makes it hard to argue that there are more universes beyond those billions. And Hawk Moth's sentence really seems hyperbolic ngl
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- #60
It isn’t. Again, a mention of part of greater whole does not contradict the existence of a greater whole. If you have 10 pens, saying that you have 2 pens is not incorrect. Same here.
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She says and I quote "one of the billions of parallel universes in existence" don't go adding your own interpretation because that's headcannon. And saying billions is not a specific number, if there are 100 billions or infinite billions of universes it's all just groups of billions of universes, her statement is not specific while Hawkmoth's is, If Tikki knows the very specific number of universes then she would have said that specific number instead of rounding it to "billions", she is just saying there are many, and Tikki has more reason to not be taken for real as she is clearly simplifying everything as she says "I choose to stick to the basics". And Tikki had no ideia that another Tikki from the multiverse was coming to her's despite by her own statement she was living all of those simultaneously so she would logically be aware of them coming there. So either she contradicted herself or she just mentally blocks what's happening on other universes so she can live her live on a single one at a time to make it much easier, she doesn't necessarily know all universes.
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I agree that saying 'billions of universes' is not an exact number and can vary within a range of finite numbers, but it definitely does not include 'infinite billions' (I didn’t quite understand the part about infinite billions you mentioned, but from what I understand, that wouldn’t make sense. 'Billions' always refers to a very large number, but still finite, which goes up to 999 billion, 999 million..)
Regarding Tikki, I don’t think it would be practical or necessary for her to say an exact number, like '724 billion, 482 million, 162 thousand and 62 universes,' especially since her statement is clearly simplifying things. But the fact that she simplifies it doesn’t change the fact that she sets a clear limit by using 'billions.' She doesn’t leave any room for the idea that it could be infinite or something beyond what she mentioned. Also, the point about her not realizing the arrival of another Tikki makes sense, which could indicate that she doesn’t have absolute awareness of all the universes in real time, even though she exists in them simultaneously. This reinforces the idea that she doesn’t necessarily know everything about those billions of universes, even though she knows of their existenc
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Billions doesn't imply a limit, there statements like this all around fiction, stuff like "there are as many ... as stairs in the sky" or there are "millions of stars in the sky" when in fact no more than 3000 stars are visible from the sky, statements using words like millions gazillions ect also most of the times refer to infinite number they never counted. The fact that she doesn't have absolute awareness of all universes in real time means we don't even know if she is aware of the number of universes there is, if she doesn't know the future how can she be aware of universes that haven't been created yet? And since her information about other universes is not actually real time how does she know that there are billions or if there is only 1 because all them were already destroyed? We already know that Kwamis don't know what's on the guardian's book, the same book that brings about powers that Tikki herself doesn't know she had, how can be sure her awareness is even fully awakened?
Her statement is not specific so we go with the one that is actually specific has it has more value than one with many possible interpretations.
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Can you enlighten me on how Gabriel's statement holds any value considering we have literally zero proof (as far as I know) that the Guardian's book contains intricate details about the multiverse's structure?
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The same book that has the information about the creation of the Kwamis, Gimmi ect? A lot of things that not even the kwamis themselves know.
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- #67
We can by the same logic discredit any 2-A statements.
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And you should.
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I don't see it mentioning anything about how many universes there are though...it contains spells and enchantments made to enhance the powers of the Kwamis. It only talks about the Miraculouses, nothing else.
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So you propose to get rid of 2-A tier as a whole… you’d need a site widespread CRT for that, friendo.
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It talks about the kwamis and their creation and it says what happens when Gimmi grants a wish which we know it envolves destroying a universe and remaking it. Monarch was actually reading the book while he had the ideia to use the rooster miraculous to steal the miraculous from other universes and before chlaiming it has infinite possibilities.
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He claimed there was an infinity of them, a very common derogatory term to refer to an excessively high amount. The definition of infinity is literally "an infinite or very great number or amount". Imo Tikki is obviously a better reference.
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On a more serious note, it's untrue that "We can by the same logic discredit any 2-A statements." Because in this case, Gabriel holds no weight in terms of statements when you compare him to a Universal concept. If we only had Gabriel, then fine, I would've accepted it as it is given, but Tikki stating the opposite of what he said makes it more problematic.
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Tikki never states the universes are limited by an amount of billions. If a knowledgeable character says “there are humans on Earth”, it wouldn’t discredit the claim of another knowledgeable character saying “there are animals on Earth”.
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How is that not setting a limit? Saying there are billions of universes means there is a finite amount of them, and makes it impossible for it to be an infinite.
Billions = Trillions
Billions = Quadrillions
Billions = Quintillions
Billions = Sextillions
Billions ≠ Infinity
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- #76
No? If I have infinite amount of pens, I have two pens too. If I say I have 2 pens, I wouldn’t be wrong at all.
Billions are part of infinity.
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When you say “billions of universes,” you're still dealing with a finite number, no matter how large. Even though billions are large, they don’t come close to infinity. If Tikki says “billions of universes,” it doesn’t imply “infinite universes” . Just because billions are part of an infinite set (like how 2 is part of infinity) doesn’t mean billions = infinity. If there were an infinite amount of universes, Tikki would have never said billions, and if there were an infinite amount of universes, Tikki would be infinite years old.
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He says "is one among an infinity of others", what the hell are you talking about? The definition of infinity by Cambridge dictionary it's
"unlimited space, time, or amount, or a number large beyond any limit"
Nothing here says "or very great number"
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infinity noun - Definition, pictures, pronunciation and usage notes | Oxford Advanced Learner's Dictionary at OxfordLearnersDictionaries.com
Definition of infinity noun in Oxford Advanced Learner's Dictionary. Meaning, pronunciation, picture, example sentences, grammar, usage notes, synonyms and more.
www.oxfordlearnersdictionaries.com
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Last one says and I quote "a large amount that is impossible to count" only infinite or higher values are impossible to count.(Last one)infinity noun - Definition, pictures, pronunciation and usage notes | Oxford Advanced Learner's Dictionary at OxfordLearnersDictionaries.com
Definition of infinity noun in Oxford Advanced Learner's Dictionary. Meaning, pronunciation, picture, example sentences, grammar, usage notes, synonyms and more.
And by the same dictionary on the word infinite says "very great; impossible to measure" which is basically the same thing.
infinite adjective - Definition, pictures, pronunciation and usage notes | Oxford Advanced Learner's Dictionary at OxfordLearnersDictionaries.com
Definition of infinite adjective in Oxford Advanced Learner's Dictionary. Meaning, pronunciation, picture, example sentences, grammar, usage notes, synonyms and more.
www.oxfordlearnersdictionaries.com
Do a CRT to downgrade almost every verse because they use the word infinite.
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