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What is the Archetype in The Mythos ?

What the title says. I was going to ask this in this thread but Ant closed it. Also, please make it as simple as you can since I'm a basic in The Mythos and don't really understand words or things too complex for a basic like me. Thank you in advance.
 
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The Archetypes are the fundamental conceptual entities from which all lineages and facets of existence originate from. They are beyond all change and exist as eternal, static beings always and forever in existence's unbounded sweep.

Yog-Sothoth is the supreme Archetype and encompasses all things, with the Archetypes being just tiny facets of it.
 
The Archetypes are the fundamental conceptual entities from which all lineages and facets of existence originate from. They are beyond all change and exist as eternal, static beings always and forever in existence's unbounded sweep.

Yog-Sothoth is the supreme Archetype and encompasses all things, with the Archetypes being just tiny facets of it.
Oh thanks. If Yog is the Supreme then what about Azzy ? What type of Archetype is he ?
 
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What Azathoth's place in the cosmology is is still being being debated so I can't really answer that. Him dreaming up all of existence was debunked.
 

KingPin0422

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Regarding Azathoth, I don't really have a concrete answer as to his placement yet, but there's reason to believe that he is the Supreme Archetype as well. There are a few things supporting this:
  • Yog-Sothoth encompasses all of time and space and Azathoth rules all of time and space.
  • Yog-Sothoth is chief among the Archetypes and Azathoth reigns over the Other Gods.
  • Yog-Sothoth is the "All-in-One" and the "One-in-All" and Azathoth is the "Lord of All Things" at the center of infinity.
The two have very similar descriptions and portrayals, so under the view that the "Other Gods" refer to fragmentary constructs and the "Archetypes" refer to their base content, it can very well be argued that Yog-Sothoth and Azathoth form a monad in the Supreme Archetype, with Yog-Sothoth being the "All-in-One", the ultimate reality in which all things are united, and Azathoth being the "One-in-All", the fixed point at the center of existence. Essentially, the macrocosm and the microcosm, Brahman and Atman, Nuit and Hadit.

Now, there is one more related matter that should be addressed: the family tree. Simply put, while I think that it can be used to provide an idea of the Other Gods' genealogy, considering that The Dream-Quest of Unknown Kadath implies that the Other Gods can reproduce and states that they were born at the same time space itself was (evidently from Azathoth, since Nyarlathotep is mentioned alongside them and the family tree has him as a direct spawn of Azathoth), it should not be applied to the Archetypes because they all have always existed and do not experience things such as change.
 
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Without question? Yes. Granted, the other Outer Gods being Tier 0 seems likely but that needs further discussion.
 
What Azathoth's place in the cosmology is is still being being debated so I can't really answer that. Him dreaming up all of existence was debunked.
Where in that thread was itdebunked? Azzy (the mod) went into the thread and refuted the notion that reality wasn’t Azathoth’s dream. FanofRPGs never really made a counter argument, then the thead went silent for months.
 
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The beginning. Azzy tried to justify it but the eventual compromise was that they were equal. And really, the refutation was pretty flimsy and only supported Azathoth being a supreme being.
 
This is the post I was referring to:

“While my previous comment focused on what we could know and what was heavily implied, I'd like to also throw together a quick comment on why one could use intent and themes to argue for Azathoth's position, as well. Of course, that is not quite as close to what this site is focused on, and I do not expect this comment to be taken nearly as seriously by those who do not care about potential narrative undertones, but I thought it would be interesting, nonetheless.

As many may know, the term "Cthulhu Mythos" didn't come about until after HPL died. Lovecraft himself often humorously referred to his tales as "Yog-Sothothery", and sometimes simply "Yog-Sothoth". All things considered, this is quite fitting for Yog-Sothoth's position as something allied with the unbound sweep of existence.

In a letter to Frank Belknap Long, Lovecraft admitted that "Yog-Sothoth" was not serious literature, while simultaneously defending its creation in comparison to reliance on existing mythology.

  • "I really agree that Yog-Sothoth is a basically immature conception, & unfitted for really serious literature. The fact is, I have never approached serious literature yet. But I consider the use of actual folk-myths as even more childish than the use of new artificial myths, since in the former one is forced to retain many blatant peurilities & contradictions of experienced which could be subtilised or smoothed over if the supernaturalism were modelled to order for the given case."
He immediately followed it with what he believed the purpose of Yog-Sothothery to be.

  • "The only permanently artistic use of Yog-Sothothery, I think, is in symbolic or associative phantasy of the frankly poetic type; in which fixed dream-patterns of the natural organism are given an embodiment & crystallisation... But there is another phase of cosmic phantasy (which may or may not include frank Yog-Sothothery) whose foundations appear to me as better grounded than those of ordinary oneiroscopy; personal limitations regarding the sense of outsideness. I refer to the aesthetic crystallisation of that burning & inextinguishable feeling of mixed wonder & oppression which the sensitive imagination experiences upon scaling itself & its restrictions against the vast & provocative abyss of the unknown. This has always been the chief emotion in my psychology; & whilst it obviously figures less in the psychology of the majority, it is clearly a well-defined & permanent factor from which very few sensitive persons are wholly free.... Reason as we may, we cannot destroy a normal perception of the highly limited & fragmentary nature of our visible world of perception & experience as scaled against the outside abyss of unthinkable galaxies & unplumbed dimensions—an abyss wherein our solar system is the merest dot..."
Dream-patterns given form. Our limited perception against an unthinkable abyss we do not understand. Those are Lovecraft's tales. That's Yog-Sothoth(ery).

How fitting then for Azathoth, the being placed at the top of Lovecraft's loose hierarchy, to be the dreamer.

"Out in the mindless void the daemon bore me,

Past the bright clusters of dimensioned space,

Till neither time nor matter stretched before me,

But only Chaos, without form or place.

Here the vast Lord of All in darkness muttered

Things he had dreamed but could not understand,

While near him shapeless bat-things flopped and fluttered

In idiot vortices that ray-streams fanned.

They danced insanely to the high, thin whining

Of a cracked flute clutched in a monstrous paw,

Whence flow the aimless waves whose chance combining

Gives each frail cosmos its eternal law.

"I am His Messenger," the daemon said,

As in contempt he struck his Master's head.
" - Fungi from Yuggoth, XXII. Azathoth

Yog-Sothoth is Lovecraft's stories; the boundless expanse of dreams and unplumbed experience reaching beyond that which we can hold within the confines of our fragile worldview.

Of course, then, Azathoth's meaning is expanded upon. He is not just Lovecraft's view of an uncaring creator of a cosmos we could never hope to grasp, but a creator who is, in some small but noteworthy way, like us. Us "very few sensitive persons who are wholly free". A dreamer of things vast and majestic, which he either cannot fully understand, or simply cares not to. The ultimate dreamer in a world governed by such fanciful things.

This is far from the only interpretation, but I figured I'd share it to show that even from a philosophical perspective, Azathoth is not randomly just slapped at the top. Also, it was kind of fun.”

No one really argued against Azzy being a dreamer except for the only reference to him sleeping being in The Fungi of Yuggoth.
 
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Nobody really agreed with the dreaming either, they just agreed with Azathoth being at the top alongside Yog-Sothoth. Because the dream stuff is no longer a thing.
 
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The group working on the CRT.

Like really, everyone who walked away from that thread will say that the dream stuff is bunk.
 
I mean, if you say so. Just looked over the thread again, and other than KingPin expressing some doubt, no one really brought up any objections to or even mentioned the dream stuff.
 
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Existence being Azathoth's dream was addressed by the OP itself. Azathoth (the Bureaucrat) was merely arguing that this did not mean Azathoth was lesser than Yog Sothoth, as per his accolades
 

KingPin0422

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I'll admit that my memory of the arguments presented in the thread is fuzzy, but I do remember Azzy bringing up a quote from The Dunwich Horror that attributes Yog-Sothoth as all-encompassing and all-knowing:

"Yog-Sothoth knows the gate. Yog-Sothoth is the gate. Yog-Sothoth is the key and guardian of the gate. Past, present, future, all are one in Yog-Sothoth. He knows where the Old Ones broke through of old, and where They shall break through again. He knows where They have trod earth’s fields, and where They still tread them, and why no one can behold Them as They tread." ~The Dunwich Horror

This happens to be consistent with what Randolph Carter realizes when Yog-Sothoth confronts him:

"It was an All-in-One and One-in-All of limitless being and self—not merely a thing of one Space-Time continuum, but allied to the ultimate animating essence of existence’s whole unbounded sweep—the last, utter sweep which has no confines and which outreaches fancy and mathematics alike. It was perhaps that which certain secret cults of earth have whispered of as YOG-SOTHOTH, and which has been a deity under other names; that which the crustaceans of Yuggoth worship as the Beyond-One, and which the vaporous brains of the spiral nebulae know by an untranslatable Sign—yet in a flash the Carter-facet realised how slight and fractional all these conceptions are." ~Through the Gates of the Silver Key

Also of note is that this is stated to come from a passage of the Necronomicon, which also has instructions on how to summon Yog-Sothoth:

"“More space, Willy, more space soon. Yew grows—an’ that grows faster. It’ll be ready to sarve ye soon, boy. Open up the gates to Yog-Sothoth with the long chant that ye’ll find on page 751 of the complete edition, an’ then put a match to the prison. Fire from airth can’t burn it nohaow.”" ~The Dunwich Horror

"Almost eight feet tall, and carrying a cheap new valise from Osborn’s general store, this dark and goatish gargoyle appeared one day in Arkham in quest of the dreaded volume kept under lock and key at the college library—the hideous Necronomicon of the mad Arab Abdul Alhazred in Olaus Wormius’ Latin version, as printed in Spain in the seventeenth century. He had never seen a city before, but had no thought save to find his way to the university grounds; where, indeed, he passed heedlessly by the great white-fanged watchdog that barked with unnatural fury and enmity, and tugged frantically at its stout chain. Wilbur had with him the priceless but imperfect copy of Dr. Dee’s English version which his grandfather had bequeathed him, and upon receiving access to the Latin copy he at once began to collate the two texts with the aim of discovering a certain passage which would have come on the 751st page of his own defective volume." ~The Dunwich Horror

As well as instructions on how to communicate with 'Umr at-Tawil:

"A moment later Carter knew that this was so, for the Shape had spoken to his mind without sound or language. And though the name it uttered was a dreaded and terrible one, Randolph Carter did not flinch in fear. Instead, he spoke back, equally without sound or language, and made those obeisances which the hideous Necronomicon had taught him to make. For this Shape was nothing less than that which all the world has feared since Lomar rose out of the sea and the Winged Ones came to earth to teach the Elder Lore to man. It was indeed the frightful Guide and Guardian of the Gate—’Umr at-Tawil, the ancient one, which the scribe rendereth the Prolonged of Life." ~Through the Gates of the Silver Key

Based on the above things, it is clear that the Necronomicon is a credible source, although there are some inaccuracies to be found- for example, this excerpt:

"“And while there are those,” the mad Arab had written, “who have dared to seek glimpses beyond the Veil, and to accept HIM as a Guide, they would have been more prudent had they avoided commerce with HIM; for it is written in the Book of Thoth how terrific is the price of a single glimpse. Nor may those who pass ever return, for in the Vastnesses transcending our world are Shapes of darkness that seize and bind. The Affair that shambleth about in the night, the Evil that defieth the Elder Sign, the Herd that stand watch at the secret portal each tomb is known to have, and that thrive on that which groweth out of the tenants within—all these Blacknesses are lesser than HE Who guardeth the Gateway; HE Who will guide the rash one beyond all the worlds into the Abyss of unnamable Devourers. For HE is ’UMR AT-TAWIL, the Most Ancient One, which the scribe rendereth as THE PROLONGED OF LIFE.”" ~Through the Gates of the Silver Key

The author (Abdul Alhazred) talks at length about how the Ancient Ones are these malevolent forces that cannot be trusted, but Randolph Carter realizes how childish of a notion this is:

"The Guide knew, as he knew all things, of Carter’s quest and coming, and that this seeker of dreams and secrets stood before him unafraid. There was no horror or malignity in what he radiated, and Carter wondered for a moment whether the mad Arab’s terrific blasphemous hints, and extracts from the Book of Thoth, might not have come from envy and a baffled wish to do what was now about to be done. Or perhaps the Guide reserved his horror and malignity for those who feared." ~Through the Gates of the Silver Key

"Damnation, he reflected, is but a word bandied about by those whose blindness leads them to condemn all who can see, even with a single eye. He wondered at the vast conceit of those who had babbled of the malignant Ancient Ones, as if They could pause from their everlasting dreams to wreak a wrath upon mankind. As well, he thought, might a mammoth pause to visit frantic vengeance on an angleworm." ~Through the Gates of the Silver Key

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Anyway, despite the Necronomicon accurately articulating Yog-Sothoth's boundlessness and even providing ritualistic gestures and chants related to him, Abdul Alhazred still treats Azathoth as the ruler of all things. There are a few references to Azathoth being in the Necronomicon:

"He must meet the Black Man, and go with them all to the throne of Azathoth at the centre of ultimate Chaos. That was what she said. He must sign in his own blood the book of Azathoth and take a new secret name now that his independent delvings had gone so far. What kept him from going with her and Brown Jenkin and the other to the throne of Chaos where the thin flutes pipe mindlessly was the fact that he had seen the name “Azathoth” in the Necronomicon, and knew it stood for a primal evil too horrible for description." ~The Dreams in the Witch House

"There were suggestions of the vague, twilight abysses, and of still vaster, blacker abysses beyond them—abysses in which all fixed suggestions of form were absent. He had been taken there by the bubble-congeries and the little polyhedron which always dogged him; but they, like himself, had changed to wisps of milky, barely luminous mist in this farther void of ultimate blackness. [...] Eventually there had been a hint of vast, leaping shadows, of a monstrous, half-acoustic pulsing, and of the thin, monotonous piping of an unseen flute—but that was all. Gilman decided he had picked up that last conception from what he had read in the Necronomicon about the mindless entity Azathoth, which rules all time and space from a curiously environed black throne at the centre of Chaos." ~The Dreams in the Witch House

"The legend of Yig, Father of Serpents, remained figurative no longer, and I started with loathing when told of the monstrous nuclear chaos beyond angled space which the Necronomicon had mercifully cloaked under the name of Azathoth." ~The Whisperer in Darkness

The second thing explicitly describes Azathoth as the ruler of all time and space, which is further backed up by certain other quotes:

"Out in the mindless void the daemon bore me, Past the bright clusters of dimensioned space, Till neither time nor matter stretched before me, But only Chaos, without form or place. Here the vast Lord of All in darkness muttered Things he had dreamed but could not understand, While near him shapeless bat-things flopped and fluttered In idiot vortices that ray-streams fanned. They danced insanely to the high, thin whining Of a cracked flute clutched in a monstrous paw, Whence flow the aimless waves whose chance combining Gives each frail cosmos its eternal law. “I am His Messenger,” the daemon said, As in contempt he struck his Master’s head." ~Fungi from Yuggoth

"Before his eyes a kaleidoscopic range of phantasmal images played, all of them dissolving at intervals into the picture of a vast, unplumbed abyss of night wherein whirled suns and worlds of an even profounder blackness. He thought of the ancient legends of Ultimate Chaos, at whose centre sprawls the blind idiot god Azathoth, Lord of All Things, encircled by his flopping horde of mindless and amorphous dancers, and lulled by the thin monotonous piping of a daemoniac flute held in nameless paws." ~The Haunter of the Dark

"The passage through the vague abysses would be frightful, for the Walpurgis-rhythm would be vibrating, and at last he would have to hear that hitherto veiled cosmic pulsing which he so mortally dreaded. Even now he could detect a low, monstrous shaking whose tempo he suspected all too well. At Sabbat-time it always mounted and reached through to the worlds to summon the initiate to nameless rites. Half the chants of the Sabbat were patterned on this faintly overheard pulsing which no earthly ear could endure in its unveiled spatial fulness. Gilman wondered, too, whether he could trust his instinct to take him back to the right part of space. How could he be sure he would not land on that green-litten hillside of a far planet, on the tessellated terrace above the city of tentacled monsters somewhere beyond the galaxy, or in the spiral black vortices of that ultimate void of Chaos wherein reigns the mindless daemon-sultan Azathoth?" ~The Dreams in the Witch House

Meanwhile, Yog-Sothoth is identified with all time and space:

"Then, in the midst of these devastating reflections, Carter’s beyond-the-gate fragment was hurled from what had seemed the nadir of horror to black, clutching pits of a horror still more profound. This time it was largely external—a force or personality which at once confronted and surrounded and pervaded him, and which in addition to its local presence, seemed also to be a part of himself, and likewise to be coexistent with all time and coterminous with all space. There was no visual image, yet the sense of entity and the awful concept of combined localism, identity, and infinity lent a paralysing terror beyond anything which any Carter-fragment had hitherto deemed capable of existing." ~Through the Gates of the Silver Key

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With all of this out of the way, I still can't give a concrete answer as to how Yog-Sothoth and Azathoth compare to each other. An agreement will be reached sooner or later, but for now, I want you guys to draw your own conclusions based on everything I just said in this post and in my last few posts on the other thread.
 
Yeah; I agree that Azathoth rules over Yog. I know that people like to treat the family tree as a non-canon goof, but it's one of the few pieces of writing where the two of them are brought up together, straight from the author himself.
 
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He "predates" Yog, that doesn't necessarily indicate superiority. I think this was even brought up by Aeyu during the revisions. They're equivalent to each other but there's very little to show if one's explicitly superior.
 
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All of existence is just a tiny facet of Yog-Sothoth, including even the other Archetypes. I don't think this includes Azathoth but I'm not sure if that's enough for him to be superior to Yog-Sothoth.
 
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So how exactly does azzy scale to yog and where does it come from, if he's not a part for yoggy, or is that still being discussed
 
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Azathoth would be the lord of all existence and its nucleus while Yog-Sothoth would be the "surrounding" and all-encompassing boundless being.

Both would be parts of a single whole if I'm getting this right.
 
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Also from what I've heard, the azzy waking up and destroying everything is untrue and it comes from demonbane or was just a misinterpretation. And that when azzy wakes, he just goes on a rampage?
 
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I think? Even the bit about sleeping is mentioned a grand total of one time in all of Lovecraft's stories.

I'd like Azathoth to be the slumbering creator, I really would. I actually think it fits him quite well. However, there's not much going to support that as far as evidence goes.
 
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He definitely rules everything, including the Archetypes, and is the center of existence. Other than that, yeah.
 
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Yeah, I'm with agreement with KingPin as far as that goes.

OG Azzy would probably just be >other OGs. Yog-Sothoth doesn't have an OG key.
 
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Yeah, which makes me wonder what his profile will be like. If we go with the interpretation that the Supreme Archetype is where all things become one, where does that leave Yog? Because without an OG key, wouldn't he just become one of SA's titles, and thus without a profile of his own?
 
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Yog-Sothoth is the Supreme Archetype though. This was agreed upon in the original thread. There is no "Supreme Archtype" distinct from Yog. That's what he is.
 
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But that's what I am saying. With Yog-Sothoth being nothing more than one of the countless titles of the SA, Yog's profile would just become the Supreme Archetype's. This is not so much about tiers as much as it would it is about the fact that there would no longer be a "Yog Sothoth" profile
 
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Well, yeah. It'd still be named Yog-Sothoth cuz notoriety but it's technically the SA. Unless we give him an OG key (pretty doable actually).
 
How did this thread about a geniune question from curious me turn into fucking CRT ? Do this elsewhere where more people will get these arguments/information like a CRT thread guys. Not trying to be rude. Just that more people would know the things brought here if you do it there.
 
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It isn't a CRT, it's just a discussion though. If your original question was answered then there shouldn't be a problem just talking about something else. Of course, if it's a problem then you can request the thread be closed.
 
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It isn't a CRT, it's a discussion. If your original question was answered then there shouldn't be a problem just talking about something else. Of course, if it's a problem then you can request the thread be closed.
I mean this discussion as you call it looks pretty important. And I really don't have any problem with you discussing things here. Heck, I am actually pretty happy to learn new things about Mythos but I just think more people should be brought attention to the things here unless you consider it unimportant/not needed.
 
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It's fine. The CRT will do that job when it comes and it's in pretty good hands. This is just a discussion about stuff that might happen.
 
It's fine. The CRT will do that job when it comes and it's in pretty good hands. This is just a discussion about stuff that might happen.
Nice. Can't wait to see the new profiles soon. Just hoping it won't turn into an Umineko situation.
 

KingPin0422

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Since someone brought up Yog-Sothoth just being a title of the Supreme Archetype, I'd like to point out that the family tree does have Yog-Sothoth as a descendant of Azathoth:



Yog-Sothoth being Shub-Niggurath's mate is supported by another letter written by Lovecraft:

"Yog-Sothoth's wife is the hellish cloud-like entity Shub-Niggurath, in whose honor nameless cults hold the rite of the Goat with a Thousand Young. By her he has two monstrous offspring—the evil twins Nug and Yeb. He has also begotten hellish hybrids upon the females of various organic species throughout the universes of space-time."

The last part calls back to The Dunwich Horror, in which Yog-Sothoth is invoked by an old man to impregnate his daughter, who then gives birth to Wilbur Whateley and the titular Dunwich horror. Shub-Niggurath being Yog-Sothoth's wife is also stated to be the case in The Mound, perhaps one of Lovecraft's more obscure stories:

"One squat, black temple of Tsathoggua was encountered, but it had been turned into a shrine of Shub-Niggurath, the All-Mother and wife of the Not-to-Be-Named One." ~The Mound

Now, when I showed this to Ultima, his argument was that "Yog-Sothoth" as Lovecraft's letters make him out to be is different from "Yog-Sothoth" as the boundless, all-encompassing being he is portrayed as in The Dunwich Horror and Through the Gates of the Silver Key because the letters seem to put Yog on the same standing as the rest of the Outer Gods to the point that Nyarlathotep predates him and Shub-Niggurath is his mate, while the stories themselves have Yog-Sothoth as the ultimate being, the Absolute. This is a tricky question to answer and I'll have to think about it with the rest of the revision group.

-----

Going back to the family tree, Nyarlathotep is listed as a direct offspring of Azathoth, and then there is this passage:

"Trembling in waves that golden wisps of nebula made weirdly visible, there rose a timid hint of far-off melody, droning in faint chords that our own universe of stars knows not. And as that music grew, the shantak raised its ears and plunged ahead, and Carter likewise bent to catch each lovely strain. It was a song, but not the song of any voice. Night and the spheres sang it, and it was old when space and Nyarlathotep and the Other Gods were born." ~The Dream-Quest of Unknown Kadath

If Nyarlathotep is born from Azathoth as the family tree suggests, then this passage implies that all of the Other Gods also sprang from him, as well as space itself. This would further cement Azathoth as the highest Outer God, although whether or not he stands above Yog-Sothoth is debatable- each interpretation has a good amount of evidence to support it, I feel.
 
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What about doing for Yog-Sothoth what we'll probably do for the rest of the OGs? Like fractional key and Supreme Archetype key?

Also wow, apparently there's a lot about Lovecraft's works I still don't know.

Actually, that family tree could give credence to Azathoth being the highest in some way. At the very least, the idea of him being part of a dual existence with Yog-Sothoth has more weight to it.
 

KingPin0422

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What about doing for Yog-Sothoth what we'll probably do for the rest of the OGs? Like fractional key and Supreme Archetype key?
Assuming the Archetype thing is valid, that sounds doable.
Actually, that family tree could give credence to Azathoth being the highest in some way. At the very least, the idea of him being part of a dual existence with Yog-Sothoth has more weight to it.
I would say so, yeah. To reiterate, I see Azathoth and Yog-Sothoth as a monad- the point and the circle, the microcosm and the macrocosm, the Atman and the Brahman, etc., united as one in the Supreme Archetype. Although, going by my previous two posts, there is reason to doubt that the Archetypes are anything distinguished from the Other Gods, as well as that Azathoth is not above Yog-Sothoth.

I should probably share this thread with the other people in the revision group so that we can get this out of the way.
 
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Personally I see the Other Gods as the representations of the Archetypes viewing existence in a fragmentary sense from the perspective of those still bound by change and such, like what this passage implies;

"After an impressive pause the waves continued, saying that what the denizens of few-dimensioned zones call change is merely a function of their consciousness, which views the external world from various cosmic angles. As the shapes produced by the cutting of a cone seem to vary with the angles of cutting—being circle, ellipse, parabola, or hyperbola according to that angle, yet without any change in the cone itself—so do the local aspects of an unchanged and endless reality seem to change with the cosmic angle of regarding. To this variety of angles of consciousness the feeble beings of the inner worlds are slaves, since with rare exceptions they cannot learn to control them. Only a few students of forbidden things have gained inklings of this control, and have thereby conquered time and change. But the entities outside the Gates command all angles, and view the myriad parts of the cosmos in terms of fragmentary, change-involving perspective, or of the changeless totality beyond perspective, in accordance with their will."

In my books, they're definitely distinct.
 
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Yeah I agree with Plank on that. The Archetypes were, IIRC, stated to be unchanging entities beyond all things. That definition definitely goes against them being synonymous with the Other Gods, said to be born at the same time as space itself was.
 

KingPin0422

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Personally I see the Other Gods as the representations of the Archetypes viewing existence in a fragmentary sense from the perspective of those still bound by change and such, like what this passage implies;

"After an impressive pause the waves continued, saying that what the denizens of few-dimensioned zones call change is merely a function of their consciousness, which views the external world from various cosmic angles. As the shapes produced by the cutting of a cone seem to vary with the angles of cutting—being circle, ellipse, parabola, or hyperbola according to that angle, yet without any change in the cone itself—so do the local aspects of an unchanged and endless reality seem to change with the cosmic angle of regarding. To this variety of angles of consciousness the feeble beings of the inner worlds are slaves, since with rare exceptions they cannot learn to control them. Only a few students of forbidden things have gained inklings of this control, and have thereby conquered time and change. But the entities outside the Gates command all angles, and view the myriad parts of the cosmos in terms of fragmentary, change-involving perspective, or of the changeless totality beyond perspective, in accordance with their will."

In my books, they're definitely distinct.
That's one of the major pieces of evidence in favor of the Archetypes interpretation, yeah. The "entities outside the Gates" can view reality as either a fractional, changing thing or as the static totality it truly is, but either way, they're above the rest of the verse to an immeasurable degree. As Alex also pointed out, the Archetypes being unchanging and eternal contrasts with the Other Gods being implied to be able to reproduce and stated to have been born alongside space, as well as... pretty much every description we get about them with how they play and dance to vile instruments while circling Azathoth's throne at the center of infinity.
 
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Wouldn't it be a king and his kingdom?
Nah.

I mean more like, Azzy is the big transcendant all encompassing guy but don't bother anyone.

While Azzy rules others because he's implied to be a destructive idiot tyran.

God is above the King, but the King is the ruler on Earth.
 
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He's the lord of existence, not exactly much on his schedule.

And all the Outer Gods don't do anything, we just see them "doing" stuff from our causally bound perspective. All of them exist beyond change in a permanent static state eternally.
 
Tbh I always did find the concept of Azathoth sleeping to be more metaphorical then literally sleeping, and that's mainly because I feel the concept of sleep is completely lost upon creatures that are so transcendent over existence that they view the totality of creation as being this unbounded and unchanging thing which they control through will alone so to say that such a creature would require slumber is quite ridculous.
I also feel that in some way it's a contradiction to HP Lovecraft's philosophy of the unknown, and I feel it's that way because it makes no sense for a human to be unable to comprehend something as low as Cthulhu in the cosmic food chain yet they somehow can tell and know that Azathoth is sleeping?
 
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Does yog or azzy have any origin of where they came from or were they just always there.

Considering this is just a QnA for Cthulhu Mythos, might as well make a general thread for the this lol
 
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No, they don't have origins. All the Outer Gods have always been and always will be, beyond change, beginning or ending. They only have origins from the perspective of lower beings the way I see it.
 
If that's the case then Nyarlathotep ought to change his look a little, after all there's only much scary you can get out of looking like a bipedal worm though at least he doesn't use tentacles
 
You know that's actually something I can't answer, not a single Outer God in HP Lovecraft's CM (aside from Yog Sothoth if you count bubbles as a design) hasn't had their true form described which makes sense going by the archetypes. I guess they considered Nyarlathotep to look like a worm based off how he acts in canon and all the thousands of hideous forms the dude has
 
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Shub-Niggurath gets described I think. Other than her and Yog-Sothoth, the only thing we know about the others is that Azathoth has a mouth with teeth.

Nyarlathotep's only forms described by Lovecraft (not sure about the other Circle writers) are the Black Pharaoh and the Black Man.
 
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Nah.

I mean more like, Azzy is the big transcendant all encompassing guy but don't bother anyone.

While Azzy rules others because he's implied to be a destructive idiot tyran.

God is above the King, but the King is the ruler on Earth.
No not really. Azzy and Yog as Derp stated have been shown to be extremely important, and seem to be more of a Monad type figure.

"Idiot Tyrant". Idiot in this context does not refer to what this line seems to be implying. Idiot also means private or solitary, which fits Azathoth's case alot more considering their place in the mythos.

Applying terms like "Idiot Tyrant" or simply "ruler" i'd say doesn't work, considering Azathoth is meant to be this sort of primordial chaos, not some acting king or ruler. The use of the word ruler or king in the mythos is more so metaphorical as the nature is a lot more abstract than merely that.

Yog-Sothoth is stated to be everywhere, and the all-in-one, encompassing all things. Whereas Azathoth is the "Nuclear Chaos" the Nucleus, or center of Infinity. This is very similar to how certain systems or religions treat Monad type figures. You have an infinite all encompassing concept, but you also have the center of said concept and both are equally important. For example, the Non-Dualistic approach of Brahman and Atman. Brahman is the All-in-One, the true universe that is incomprehensible and the primordial force of origin. Atman is the individual higher-self present in all living things, and all Atman is Brahman, making them one in the same, thus equal. Brahman is the everything within the god, Atman is the god within the everything. It's the Macrocosm and the Microcosm, infinitesimally large and infinitesimally small. The kicker is the fact they both are manifestations of the very same thing, the same energy, thus they are one and equal to one another.
 
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Problem is that while all of this is cool, it is interpretation. We don't rate characters based on what they could represent but on feats.

And as far as feats go, Azzy is a powerful god but never was treated as anywhere comparable to Yog, while omniscient Randolph who previously encountered Azzy still piut Yog above everything in TTGOTSK.

Also it's not rare for a character to be supposed to be the absolute guy only to be revealed that there's a dude dwarfing him considerably.

We're clearly treating CM way too differently from others verses, even those who tend to have the same kind of symbolism.
 
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I think Aogirikira was talking about their OG selves, correct I am wrong. Because they should exist as a single entity in the Supreme Archetype from what I have gathered
Unless I really misinterpreted what everyone else is saying
 
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Problem is that while all of this is cool, it is interpretation. We don't rate characters based on what they could represent but on feats.

And as far as feats go, Azzy is a powerful god but never was treated as anywhere comparable to Yog, while omniscient Randolph who previously encountered Azzy still piut Yog above everything in TTGOTSK.

Also it's not rare for a character to be supposed to be the absolute guy only to be revealed that there's a dude dwarfing him considerably.

We're clearly treating CM way too differently from others verses, even those who tend to have the same kind of symbolism.
Literally nothing in the CM is feats.
 
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And as far as feats go, Azzy is a powerful god but never was treated as anywhere comparable to Yog, while omniscient Randolph who previously encountered Azzy still put Yog above everything in TTGOTSK.

He never encounters Azathoth, ever. He has some passing knowledge from the Necronomicon how he's the lord of all existence and such but he never gets up close and personal in the same way as with Yog-Sothoth.

Also it's not rare for a character to be supposed to be the absolute guy only to be revealed that there's a dude dwarfing him considerably.

Not really what happens. We get a lot of information about Yog-Sothoth's status but nothing about how he's compared to Azathoth. Him being the lord of the existence embodied and manifested as Yog-Sothoth and possibly the progenitor of the Outer Gods in their fractional forms already puts him a special place in the setting.
 

KingPin0422

Derp Idol
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It's also important to note that humans don't even fully comprehend the Ancient Ones, who are far lesser in scale than the Outer Gods. For example, Randolph Carter notes that the idea that the Ancient Ones would be malicious towards humanity is very wrong:

"The Guide knew, as he knew all things, of Carter’s quest and coming, and that this seeker of dreams and secrets stood before him unafraid. There was no horror or malignity in what he radiated, and Carter wondered for a moment whether the mad Arab’s terrific blasphemous hints, and extracts from the Book of Thoth, might not have come from envy and a baffled wish to do what was now about to be done. Or perhaps the Guide reserved his horror and malignity for those who feared." ~Through the Gates of the Silver Key

"Damnation, he reflected, is but a word bandied about by those whose blindness leads them to condemn all who can see, even with a single eye. He wondered at the vast conceit of those who had babbled of the malignant Ancient Ones, as if They could pause from their everlasting dreams to wreak a wrath upon mankind. As well, he thought, might a mammoth pause to visit frantic vengeance on an angleworm." ~Through the Gates of the Silver Key

While there are instances of the Necronomicon accurately describing the Outer Gods (Yog-Sothoth is correctly described as encompassing past, present, and future all at once), the point I'm trying to make is that any statements about the Other Gods made from a mortal's perspective should not necessarily be taken at face value- things like Azathoth being a ruler and sleeping at his throne while having dreams he doesn't understand are metaphorical illustrations and don't apply to him in a literal sense.
 
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Agreed. The idea that a poem written in the perspective of a mortal is a literal description of Azathoth is laughable.
 
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Honestly, I don't think I have much against the idea of Yog and Azzy being one in the Supreme Archetype.
 
I have another question for this Archetype stuff. Is the Archetype or anything similar ever mentioned within the canon of Mythos ?
 
Yes, the entire latter half of ''Through the Gates and Silver Key'' is about the Archetypes and Supreme Archetype.
Oh I see. So the Outers are something similar to avatars of their Archetypes and the Supreme Archetype (Azzy/Yog) is basically God.
 
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Well, sorta. The consensus seems to be that when these entities view existence in terms of a fragmentary, change-involving perspective, they are known as the Outer Gods from the perspective of that fragmentary reality. Their true, eternal forms that are beyond existence's changeless whole are the Archetypes.
 
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None that we know off but they definitely do. Most of them come from other universes than that of Earth's, including Cthulhu, Ghatanothoa and Tsathoggua.
 
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