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What is the Archetype in The Mythos ?

He definitely rules everything, including the Archetypes, and is the center of existence. Other than that, yeah.
 
Yeah, I'm with agreement with KingPin as far as that goes.

OG Azzy would probably just be >other OGs. Yog-Sothoth doesn't have an OG key.
 
Yeah, which makes me wonder what his profile will be like. If we go with the interpretation that the Supreme Archetype is where all things become one, where does that leave Yog? Because without an OG key, wouldn't he just become one of SA's titles, and thus without a profile of his own?
 
Yog-Sothoth is the Supreme Archetype though. This was agreed upon in the original thread. There is no "Supreme Archtype" distinct from Yog. That's what he is.
 
But that's what I am saying. With Yog-Sothoth being nothing more than one of the countless titles of the SA, Yog's profile would just become the Supreme Archetype's. This is not so much about tiers as much as it would it is about the fact that there would no longer be a "Yog Sothoth" profile
 
Well, yeah. It'd still be named Yog-Sothoth cuz notoriety but it's technically the SA. Unless we give him an OG key (pretty doable actually).
 
How did this thread about a geniune question from curious me turn into ******* CRT ? Do this elsewhere where more people will get these arguments/information like a CRT thread guys. Not trying to be rude. Just that more people would know the things brought here if you do it there.
 
It isn't a CRT, it's just a discussion though. If your original question was answered then there shouldn't be a problem just talking about something else. Of course, if it's a problem then you can request the thread be closed.
 
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It isn't a CRT, it's a discussion. If your original question was answered then there shouldn't be a problem just talking about something else. Of course, if it's a problem then you can request the thread be closed.
I mean this discussion as you call it looks pretty important. And I really don't have any problem with you discussing things here. Heck, I am actually pretty happy to learn new things about Mythos but I just think more people should be brought attention to the things here unless you consider it unimportant/not needed.
 
It's fine. The CRT will do that job when it comes and it's in pretty good hands. This is just a discussion about stuff that might happen.
 
It's fine. The CRT will do that job when it comes and it's in pretty good hands. This is just a discussion about stuff that might happen.
Nice. Can't wait to see the new profiles soon. Just hoping it won't turn into an Umineko situation.
 
Like, the wait? At the very least, there's progress being made so it'll probably be done within the year at the most.
 
Since someone brought up Yog-Sothoth just being a title of the Supreme Archetype, I'd like to point out that the family tree does have Yog-Sothoth as a descendant of Azathoth:

bmwHo.jpg


Yog-Sothoth being Shub-Niggurath's mate is supported by another letter written by Lovecraft:

"Yog-Sothoth's wife is the hellish cloud-like entity Shub-Niggurath, in whose honor nameless cults hold the rite of the Goat with a Thousand Young. By her he has two monstrous offspring—the evil twins Nug and Yeb. He has also begotten hellish hybrids upon the females of various organic species throughout the universes of space-time."

The last part calls back to The Dunwich Horror, in which Yog-Sothoth is invoked by an old man to impregnate his daughter, who then gives birth to Wilbur Whateley and the titular Dunwich horror. Shub-Niggurath being Yog-Sothoth's wife is also stated to be the case in The Mound, perhaps one of Lovecraft's more obscure stories:

"One squat, black temple of Tsathoggua was encountered, but it had been turned into a shrine of Shub-Niggurath, the All-Mother and wife of the Not-to-Be-Named One." ~The Mound

Now, when I showed this to Ultima, his argument was that "Yog-Sothoth" as Lovecraft's letters make him out to be is different from "Yog-Sothoth" as the boundless, all-encompassing being he is portrayed as in The Dunwich Horror and Through the Gates of the Silver Key because the letters seem to put Yog on the same standing as the rest of the Outer Gods to the point that Nyarlathotep predates him and Shub-Niggurath is his mate, while the stories themselves have Yog-Sothoth as the ultimate being, the Absolute. This is a tricky question to answer and I'll have to think about it with the rest of the revision group.

-----

Going back to the family tree, Nyarlathotep is listed as a direct offspring of Azathoth, and then there is this passage:

"Trembling in waves that golden wisps of nebula made weirdly visible, there rose a timid hint of far-off melody, droning in faint chords that our own universe of stars knows not. And as that music grew, the shantak raised its ears and plunged ahead, and Carter likewise bent to catch each lovely strain. It was a song, but not the song of any voice. Night and the spheres sang it, and it was old when space and Nyarlathotep and the Other Gods were born." ~The Dream-Quest of Unknown Kadath

If Nyarlathotep is born from Azathoth as the family tree suggests, then this passage implies that all of the Other Gods also sprang from him, as well as space itself. This would further cement Azathoth as the highest Outer God, although whether or not he stands above Yog-Sothoth is debatable- each interpretation has a good amount of evidence to support it, I feel.
 
What about doing for Yog-Sothoth what we'll probably do for the rest of the OGs? Like fractional key and Supreme Archetype key?

Also wow, apparently there's a lot about Lovecraft's works I still don't know.

Actually, that family tree could give credence to Azathoth being the highest in some way. At the very least, the idea of him being part of a dual existence with Yog-Sothoth has more weight to it.
 
What about doing for Yog-Sothoth what we'll probably do for the rest of the OGs? Like fractional key and Supreme Archetype key?
Assuming the Archetype thing is valid, that sounds doable.
Actually, that family tree could give credence to Azathoth being the highest in some way. At the very least, the idea of him being part of a dual existence with Yog-Sothoth has more weight to it.
I would say so, yeah. To reiterate, I see Azathoth and Yog-Sothoth as a monad- the point and the circle, the microcosm and the macrocosm, the Atman and the Brahman, etc., united as one in the Supreme Archetype. Although, going by my previous two posts, there is reason to doubt that the Archetypes are anything distinguished from the Other Gods, as well as that Azathoth is not above Yog-Sothoth.

I should probably share this thread with the other people in the revision group so that we can get this out of the way.
 
Personally I see the Other Gods as the representations of the Archetypes viewing existence in a fragmentary sense from the perspective of those still bound by change and such, like what this passage implies;

"After an impressive pause the waves continued, saying that what the denizens of few-dimensioned zones call change is merely a function of their consciousness, which views the external world from various cosmic angles. As the shapes produced by the cutting of a cone seem to vary with the angles of cutting—being circle, ellipse, parabola, or hyperbola according to that angle, yet without any change in the cone itself—so do the local aspects of an unchanged and endless reality seem to change with the cosmic angle of regarding. To this variety of angles of consciousness the feeble beings of the inner worlds are slaves, since with rare exceptions they cannot learn to control them. Only a few students of forbidden things have gained inklings of this control, and have thereby conquered time and change. But the entities outside the Gates command all angles, and view the myriad parts of the cosmos in terms of fragmentary, change-involving perspective, or of the changeless totality beyond perspective, in accordance with their will."

In my books, they're definitely distinct.
 
Yeah I agree with Plank on that. The Archetypes were, IIRC, stated to be unchanging entities beyond all things. That definition definitely goes against them being synonymous with the Other Gods, said to be born at the same time as space itself was.
 
Personally I see the Other Gods as the representations of the Archetypes viewing existence in a fragmentary sense from the perspective of those still bound by change and such, like what this passage implies;

"After an impressive pause the waves continued, saying that what the denizens of few-dimensioned zones call change is merely a function of their consciousness, which views the external world from various cosmic angles. As the shapes produced by the cutting of a cone seem to vary with the angles of cutting—being circle, ellipse, parabola, or hyperbola according to that angle, yet without any change in the cone itself—so do the local aspects of an unchanged and endless reality seem to change with the cosmic angle of regarding. To this variety of angles of consciousness the feeble beings of the inner worlds are slaves, since with rare exceptions they cannot learn to control them. Only a few students of forbidden things have gained inklings of this control, and have thereby conquered time and change. But the entities outside the Gates command all angles, and view the myriad parts of the cosmos in terms of fragmentary, change-involving perspective, or of the changeless totality beyond perspective, in accordance with their will."

In my books, they're definitely distinct.
That's one of the major pieces of evidence in favor of the Archetypes interpretation, yeah. The "entities outside the Gates" can view reality as either a fractional, changing thing or as the static totality it truly is, but either way, they're above the rest of the verse to an immeasurable degree. As Alex also pointed out, the Archetypes being unchanging and eternal contrasts with the Other Gods being implied to be able to reproduce and stated to have been born alongside space, as well as... pretty much every description we get about them with how they play and dance to vile instruments while circling Azathoth's throne at the center of infinity.
 
Tbh seeing Azzy and Yog relationship as one of a King and a God works p well too.
 
Wouldn't it be a king and his kingdom?
Nah.

I mean more like, Azzy is the big transcendant all encompassing guy but don't bother anyone.

While Azzy rules others because he's implied to be a destructive idiot tyran.

God is above the King, but the King is the ruler on Earth.
 
He's the lord of existence, not exactly much on his schedule.

And all the Outer Gods don't do anything, we just see them "doing" stuff from our causally bound perspective. All of them exist beyond change in a permanent static state eternally.
 
Tbh I always did find the concept of Azathoth sleeping to be more metaphorical then literally sleeping, and that's mainly because I feel the concept of sleep is completely lost upon creatures that are so transcendent over existence that they view the totality of creation as being this unbounded and unchanging thing which they control through will alone so to say that such a creature would require slumber is quite ridculous.
I also feel that in some way it's a contradiction to HP Lovecraft's philosophy of the unknown, and I feel it's that way because it makes no sense for a human to be unable to comprehend something as low as Cthulhu in the cosmic food chain yet they somehow can tell and know that Azathoth is sleeping?
 
The sleeping part is mentioned only once, from the perspective of a mortal no less.
 
Personally, I feel like True Azathoth doesn't sleep and is like the other Archetypes.
 
Does yog or azzy have any origin of where they came from or were they just always there.

Considering this is just a QnA for Cthulhu Mythos, might as well make a general thread for the this lol
 
No, they don't have origins. All the Outer Gods have always been and always will be, beyond change, beginning or ending. They only have origins from the perspective of lower beings the way I see it.
 
If that's the case then Nyarlathotep ought to change his look a little, after all there's only much scary you can get out of looking like a bipedal worm though at least he doesn't use tentacles
 
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