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Credit to @Grand_Saver_Ritsuka and grindsetgang for providing me with scans and such.
First, in MBAA, a fight between arcueid and shiki occurs.
Ryougi explicitly states that Void is the one urging her to do this instinctively and is behind all of this.
https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/1039008145495838740/1039023816325738557/1.png
https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/1039008145495838740/1039023815965016154/7.png
the "I" here is especially important. Void is generally referred to as "Ryougi Shiki" with quotation marks.
the counter arguments for this not being Void all fall flat. the arguments are that this Ryougi is unaware of Void's existence and that she is likely referring to SHIKI, her other personality. one: this takes place after KnK's main story, meaning Ryougi could've found out about Void. Kokuto may have told her even since he met Void. two: SHIKI mentally died and no longer exist at this point. three: SHIKI has no cosmic plans or anything and has no idea what Archetype-Earth or a ***** Type is.
Archetype has some level of a connection to the Root and the same origin as her. we know Archetype has a connection to the Root for several reasons.
one: Nasu states she was a True Ancestor born from nothingness (likely referring to being born from the Root like Void) and that there are secrets about her we do not know even now. Arceuid also shared a similar trait of lacking a personality or ego of her own, which is confirmed in void’s case to be because of her root connection.
Nasu: Any True Ancestor aside from the very first one is artificial in some way or another. Arcueid is an Ancestor who was created even though there was really no need for her. Whenever another True Ancestor can be created, the other Ancestors get together and say "Well, things are like this right now, so we need someone who can take this role" and then mold the new one. Arcueid was originated from nothingness -- a product to realized the pointless goal of "the strongest True Ancestor"... there are a few other secrets, but... (Laughs)
Editor: Seems like it is best if we just stop here. (Laughs) - TYPE-MOON Long Interview - Kanwa Tsukihime - "The True Ancestor Arcueid"
Archetype is also stated to have inherited Type-Moon's abilities, which would include his Mystic Eyes that are on the level of MEoDP, which are eyes stemming directly from the Root.
For just a second, it is possible to catch a glimpse of the vampire princess Arcueid’s true power. The phantom that appears behind her back is her original form. Its appearance, abilities, and very thoughts could be called the Crimson Moon.
www.tmdict.com
Further, beyond Jewel lies “Rainbow.” These ultimate mystic eyes, which blend and mix all seven colors of the rainbow like a kaleidoscope, are considered to be the mark of the King of the Moon. - Fate/Side Material - Encyclopedia: Noble Colour [Others], p.068
www.tmdict.com
Yes, I heard someone talking about the Mystic Eyes of Death Perception yesterday. The "Rainbow" ranked Mystic Eyes that can impose death to those it sees equally.”
Archetype has also used the Second Magic to summon the Crimson Moon ahead of the appointed time to revert Wallachia to his original state as a DA. this wasn't even a fully manifested Archetype. you can tell she has just partially manifested, as she does not have the "Hime" appearance and is limited due to this according to Wallachia.
Ryougi says she is the same kind of person and that is undeniable proof that Archetype is connected to the Root. i mean what else could they have in common? being female? that's half of the population. Ryougi is also a human and Archetype is a True Ancestor/Ultimate One. their only common trait is their connection to the Root.
This would also be in line with several wog statements putting arcueid over ryougi, such as this
when Archetype talks to Ryougi, going off what she is saying you can tell she is talking directly to Void through Ryougi. she knows who Void is and why she has come, referring to her as the Will of the Heavens, yet is confident in defeating her still. the fight happens off-screen of course. though the fight itself is hyped. this is significant because one: we know normal Ryougi doesn't stand a chance in hell against Archetype. Archetype's no concept of death alone renders her MEoDP useless and she massively outstats her in general. so it's clear Void took over Ryougi after the scene of Archetype talking ended. there is absolutely no reason to hype a fight with Archetype Vs. someone she would curbstomp. this means they were hyping Void Vs. Archetype. and this means they are in the same league as each other. Archetype also outstats Ryougi, in like every single way. Normal ryougi is stated to be relative to Shiki Nanaya.
this is also a side thing that should be considered very minor in the grand scheme of things, but I feel like mentioning it. in versus mode if you beat Archetype with Ryougi/Void (Void comes out in her Last Arc), Ryougi has no special win quote with Archetype. however if you defeat Ryougi with Archetype, Archetype has a special win quote for their fight specifically. if we count this as anything, that would imply Archetype was the winner of their fight since she's the only one with a special quote. not only that, but she is clearly speaking to Void yet again based off what she is saying.
https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/1039008145495838740/1039024889748787252/WA.png
"We both chose the wrong time to wake up."
clearly she's not referring to normal Ryougi waking up from an afternoon nap. she's referring to Void waking up and taking over, as she does on rare occasions. this line up in parallel with Archetype-Earth being the dormant side of Arcueid that only wakes up on rare occasion. she then says "For now, quietly stay submerged into dreams of nothingness." Void stays inside Ryougi looking inward at the Root sleeping in a dreamlike state. And the Root is referred to as nothingness several times (which really is referring to how its a swirling mass of chaos with no definable traits because of how jumbled up and random it is mostly).
Combine all this shit with the number of times nasu says arcueid is strongest, and you get it.
Now, to debunk void shiki being completely omnipotent.
Also, this couldnt be self-suggestion, as shiki needs a sword, and even a shiki with self suggestion amps cannot beat a;e.
Plus, as in the knk manga, self suggestion changes her personality to begin with.
Additional Notes:
Magic can only be used by individuals that have opened a path to the Root ( although there can only be one magician per magic, as even if other people re-trace the same steps, they will not be able to gain magic, or people with root fuckery hax.)
in ryougis conversation in mbaacc, arcueid talks of the earth separating from the roots authority, and becoming a separate entity.
In order to resist the authority of something in the nasuverse, you need comparable authority, which is only possible if Arc has a connection to the root.
For these reasons, I wish to upgrade Arcueid's A;E key to 1-A.
Now for the end of this thread, I will be combating common misconceptions people may have, in a section ill call
Nasuverse for Dummies!
It was not Void Shiki who challenged arcueid, it was normal Ryougi with self suggestion.
No. Why is this even a question? Not only does Archetype outstat normal ryougi in every parameter, enough to instantly evaporate her into dust, Ryougi doesnt even have Kanesada Kuji, with the exception of her Last Arc, which not so coincidentally shares everything visually to her FGO NP, which IS confirmed to be void shiki.
Also note in the OP, Archetypes win quote states that BOTH of them "woke" up too early, and to return to dreams of nothingness. Void is the only one of the Shiki's that does anything close to"sleeping", as she does so after creating the other 2 personalities. The mention of emptiness also supports this notion.
For one of your scans, nasu didnt actually make a list, so we dont know who he meant to be the strongest.
Do I need say more?
tl;dr:
A fight between Arcueid and Shiki occurs in the MBAA game, with Void being the one urging Shiki to participate.
Shiki's arrival would have not been possible without void, as this Shiki exists in a completely different universe, and does not possess the second magic to hop parallel worlds.
Counter-arguments suggesting this is not Void are invalid due to the timing of the event, the death of Shiki's other personality, SHIKI, and ShikiI's lack of knowledge about the cosmic plans or Archetype-Earth.
Self-suggestion is not possible, due to archetype being better than Shiki in pretty much everything stat-wise, and cannot be killed by the MEODP.
Archetype is connected to the Root, as per Nasu's statement that she is a True Ancestor born from nothingness (likely the Root), and shares characteristics with Void.
Archetype has inherited Type-Moon's abilities, including Mystic Eyes that may possibly be from the Root, due to sharing the same rank as the MEODP (Rainbow).
Archetype uses Second Magic to summon the Crimson Moon, further indicating her connection to the Root.
Shiki also calls arcueid a similar existence to herself.
There are numerous statements of Arcueid being the strongest in type-moon, and is constantly portrayed as the strongest in each work she appears in, with the only exceptions being when she is weakened in some way.
The fight between Archetype and Ryougi, in which Void likely took over, is hyped, indicating they are in the same league.
There is a special win quote for Archetype defeating Ryougi in a game, hinting at Archetype's victory and further communication with Void. Ryougi herself lacks such a quote, though.
The omnipotence of Void Shiki is debated, with her being able to grant most wishes, and her past inability to sustain her own existence without help from the ryougi family as evidence against it.
Ryougi's last arc in Melty, is identical to saber shiki's np in fgo, which is void shiki in the body of a servant.
There is an unique ability of individuals who have opened a path to the Root to use Magic, this and Arcueid discussing the ability to resist the Root's authority to separate the Earth's laws from it, implies her own connection to the Root.
First, in MBAA, a fight between arcueid and shiki occurs.
Ryougi explicitly states that Void is the one urging her to do this instinctively and is behind all of this.
https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/1039008145495838740/1039023816325738557/1.png
https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/1039008145495838740/1039023815965016154/7.png
the "I" here is especially important. Void is generally referred to as "Ryougi Shiki" with quotation marks.
the counter arguments for this not being Void all fall flat. the arguments are that this Ryougi is unaware of Void's existence and that she is likely referring to SHIKI, her other personality. one: this takes place after KnK's main story, meaning Ryougi could've found out about Void. Kokuto may have told her even since he met Void. two: SHIKI mentally died and no longer exist at this point. three: SHIKI has no cosmic plans or anything and has no idea what Archetype-Earth or a ***** Type is.
Archetype has some level of a connection to the Root and the same origin as her. we know Archetype has a connection to the Root for several reasons.
one: Nasu states she was a True Ancestor born from nothingness (likely referring to being born from the Root like Void) and that there are secrets about her we do not know even now. Arceuid also shared a similar trait of lacking a personality or ego of her own, which is confirmed in void’s case to be because of her root connection.
Nasu: Any True Ancestor aside from the very first one is artificial in some way or another. Arcueid is an Ancestor who was created even though there was really no need for her. Whenever another True Ancestor can be created, the other Ancestors get together and say "Well, things are like this right now, so we need someone who can take this role" and then mold the new one. Arcueid was originated from nothingness -- a product to realized the pointless goal of "the strongest True Ancestor"... there are a few other secrets, but... (Laughs)
Editor: Seems like it is best if we just stop here. (Laughs) - TYPE-MOON Long Interview - Kanwa Tsukihime - "The True Ancestor Arcueid"
Archetype is also stated to have inherited Type-Moon's abilities, which would include his Mystic Eyes that are on the level of MEoDP, which are eyes stemming directly from the Root.
For just a second, it is possible to catch a glimpse of the vampire princess Arcueid’s true power. The phantom that appears behind her back is her original form. Its appearance, abilities, and very thoughts could be called the Crimson Moon.
Glossary | TMdict
Further, beyond Jewel lies “Rainbow.” These ultimate mystic eyes, which blend and mix all seven colors of the rainbow like a kaleidoscope, are considered to be the mark of the King of the Moon. - Fate/Side Material - Encyclopedia: Noble Colour [Others], p.068
Glossary | TMdict
Yes, I heard someone talking about the Mystic Eyes of Death Perception yesterday. The "Rainbow" ranked Mystic Eyes that can impose death to those it sees equally.”
Archetype has also used the Second Magic to summon the Crimson Moon ahead of the appointed time to revert Wallachia to his original state as a DA. this wasn't even a fully manifested Archetype. you can tell she has just partially manifested, as she does not have the "Hime" appearance and is limited due to this according to Wallachia.
Ryougi says she is the same kind of person and that is undeniable proof that Archetype is connected to the Root. i mean what else could they have in common? being female? that's half of the population. Ryougi is also a human and Archetype is a True Ancestor/Ultimate One. their only common trait is their connection to the Root.
This would also be in line with several wog statements putting arcueid over ryougi, such as this
basically this says arcueid is the strongest in Type-Moon history.
While the events of tsukihime could not exist in the world of knk, the events of mahoyo could have very well occurred in knk.
when Archetype talks to Ryougi, going off what she is saying you can tell she is talking directly to Void through Ryougi. she knows who Void is and why she has come, referring to her as the Will of the Heavens, yet is confident in defeating her still. the fight happens off-screen of course. though the fight itself is hyped. this is significant because one: we know normal Ryougi doesn't stand a chance in hell against Archetype. Archetype's no concept of death alone renders her MEoDP useless and she massively outstats her in general. so it's clear Void took over Ryougi after the scene of Archetype talking ended. there is absolutely no reason to hype a fight with Archetype Vs. someone she would curbstomp. this means they were hyping Void Vs. Archetype. and this means they are in the same league as each other. Archetype also outstats Ryougi, in like every single way. Normal ryougi is stated to be relative to Shiki Nanaya.
this is also a side thing that should be considered very minor in the grand scheme of things, but I feel like mentioning it. in versus mode if you beat Archetype with Ryougi/Void (Void comes out in her Last Arc), Ryougi has no special win quote with Archetype. however if you defeat Ryougi with Archetype, Archetype has a special win quote for their fight specifically. if we count this as anything, that would imply Archetype was the winner of their fight since she's the only one with a special quote. not only that, but she is clearly speaking to Void yet again based off what she is saying.
https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/1039008145495838740/1039024889748787252/WA.png
"We both chose the wrong time to wake up."
clearly she's not referring to normal Ryougi waking up from an afternoon nap. she's referring to Void waking up and taking over, as she does on rare occasions. this line up in parallel with Archetype-Earth being the dormant side of Arcueid that only wakes up on rare occasion. she then says "For now, quietly stay submerged into dreams of nothingness." Void stays inside Ryougi looking inward at the Root sleeping in a dreamlike state. And the Root is referred to as nothingness several times (which really is referring to how its a swirling mass of chaos with no definable traits because of how jumbled up and random it is mostly).
Combine all this shit with the number of times nasu says arcueid is strongest, and you get it.
Now, to debunk void shiki being completely omnipotent.
note how she says most and not ANY.
if she was completely omnipotent she would be able to sustain her own existence without help, since it would exist in all points of time.
Also, this couldnt be self-suggestion, as shiki needs a sword, and even a shiki with self suggestion amps cannot beat a;e.
Plus, as in the knk manga, self suggestion changes her personality to begin with.
Additional Notes:
Magic can only be used by individuals that have opened a path to the Root ( although there can only be one magician per magic, as even if other people re-trace the same steps, they will not be able to gain magic, or people with root fuckery hax.)
in ryougis conversation in mbaacc, arcueid talks of the earth separating from the roots authority, and becoming a separate entity.
In order to resist the authority of something in the nasuverse, you need comparable authority, which is only possible if Arc has a connection to the root.
For these reasons, I wish to upgrade Arcueid's A;E key to 1-A.
Now for the end of this thread, I will be combating common misconceptions people may have, in a section ill call
Nasuverse for Dummies!
It was not Void Shiki who challenged arcueid, it was normal Ryougi with self suggestion.
No. Why is this even a question? Not only does Archetype outstat normal ryougi in every parameter, enough to instantly evaporate her into dust, Ryougi doesnt even have Kanesada Kuji, with the exception of her Last Arc, which not so coincidentally shares everything visually to her FGO NP, which IS confirmed to be void shiki.
Also note in the OP, Archetypes win quote states that BOTH of them "woke" up too early, and to return to dreams of nothingness. Void is the only one of the Shiki's that does anything close to"sleeping", as she does so after creating the other 2 personalities. The mention of emptiness also supports this notion.
For one of your scans, nasu didnt actually make a list, so we dont know who he meant to be the strongest.
Do I need say more?
tl;dr:
A fight between Arcueid and Shiki occurs in the MBAA game, with Void being the one urging Shiki to participate.
Shiki's arrival would have not been possible without void, as this Shiki exists in a completely different universe, and does not possess the second magic to hop parallel worlds.
Counter-arguments suggesting this is not Void are invalid due to the timing of the event, the death of Shiki's other personality, SHIKI, and ShikiI's lack of knowledge about the cosmic plans or Archetype-Earth.
Self-suggestion is not possible, due to archetype being better than Shiki in pretty much everything stat-wise, and cannot be killed by the MEODP.
Archetype is connected to the Root, as per Nasu's statement that she is a True Ancestor born from nothingness (likely the Root), and shares characteristics with Void.
Archetype has inherited Type-Moon's abilities, including Mystic Eyes that may possibly be from the Root, due to sharing the same rank as the MEODP (Rainbow).
Archetype uses Second Magic to summon the Crimson Moon, further indicating her connection to the Root.
Shiki also calls arcueid a similar existence to herself.
There are numerous statements of Arcueid being the strongest in type-moon, and is constantly portrayed as the strongest in each work she appears in, with the only exceptions being when she is weakened in some way.
The fight between Archetype and Ryougi, in which Void likely took over, is hyped, indicating they are in the same league.
There is a special win quote for Archetype defeating Ryougi in a game, hinting at Archetype's victory and further communication with Void. Ryougi herself lacks such a quote, though.
The omnipotence of Void Shiki is debated, with her being able to grant most wishes, and her past inability to sustain her own existence without help from the ryougi family as evidence against it.
Ryougi's last arc in Melty, is identical to saber shiki's np in fgo, which is void shiki in the body of a servant.
There is an unique ability of individuals who have opened a path to the Root to use Magic, this and Arcueid discussing the ability to resist the Root's authority to separate the Earth's laws from it, implies her own connection to the Root.
