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What is the Archetype in The Mythos ?

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What the title says. I was going to ask this in this thread but Ant closed it. Also, please make it as simple as you can since I'm a basic in The Mythos and don't really understand words or things too complex for a basic like me. Thank you in advance.
 
The Archetypes are the fundamental conceptual entities from which all lineages and facets of existence originate from. They are beyond all change and exist as eternal, static beings always and forever in existence's unbounded sweep.

Yog-Sothoth is the supreme Archetype and encompasses all things, with the Archetypes being just tiny facets of it.
 
The Archetypes are the fundamental conceptual entities from which all lineages and facets of existence originate from. They are beyond all change and exist as eternal, static beings always and forever in existence's unbounded sweep.

Yog-Sothoth is the supreme Archetype and encompasses all things, with the Archetypes being just tiny facets of it.
Oh thanks. If Yog is the Supreme then what about Azzy ? What type of Archetype is he ?
 
What Azathoth's place in the cosmology is is still being being debated so I can't really answer that. Him dreaming up all of existence was debunked.
 
Regarding Azathoth, I don't really have a concrete answer as to his placement yet, but there's reason to believe that he is the Supreme Archetype as well. There are a few things supporting this:
  • Yog-Sothoth encompasses all of time and space and Azathoth rules all of time and space.
  • Yog-Sothoth is chief among the Archetypes and Azathoth reigns over the Other Gods.
  • Yog-Sothoth is the "All-in-One" and the "One-in-All" and Azathoth is the "Lord of All Things" at the center of infinity.
The two have very similar descriptions and portrayals, so under the view that the "Other Gods" refer to fragmentary constructs and the "Archetypes" refer to their base content, it can very well be argued that Yog-Sothoth and Azathoth form a monad in the Supreme Archetype, with Yog-Sothoth being the "All-in-One", the ultimate reality in which all things are united, and Azathoth being the "One-in-All", the fixed point at the center of existence. Essentially, the macrocosm and the microcosm, Brahman and Atman, Nuit and Hadit.

Now, there is one more related matter that should be addressed: the family tree. Simply put, while I think that it can be used to provide an idea of the Other Gods' genealogy, considering that The Dream-Quest of Unknown Kadath implies that the Other Gods can reproduce and states that they were born at the same time space itself was (evidently from Azathoth, since Nyarlathotep is mentioned alongside them and the family tree has him as a direct spawn of Azathoth), it should not be applied to the Archetypes because they all have always existed and do not experience things such as change.
 
The Outer Gods? At minimum High 1-A. Tier 0 stuff is still in discussion.
 
Without question? Yes. Granted, the other Outer Gods being Tier 0 seems likely but that needs further discussion.
 
What Azathoth's place in the cosmology is is still being being debated so I can't really answer that. Him dreaming up all of existence was debunked.
Where in that thread was itdebunked? Azzy (the mod) went into the thread and refuted the notion that reality wasn’t Azathoth’s dream. FanofRPGs never really made a counter argument, then the thead went silent for months.
 
I think it was because of the forum move, and the rest was discussed on a discord server afaik
 
The beginning. Azzy tried to justify it but the eventual compromise was that they were equal. And really, the refutation was pretty flimsy and only supported Azathoth being a supreme being.
 
This is the post I was referring to:

“While my previous comment focused on what we could know and what was heavily implied, I'd like to also throw together a quick comment on why one could use intent and themes to argue for Azathoth's position, as well. Of course, that is not quite as close to what this site is focused on, and I do not expect this comment to be taken nearly as seriously by those who do not care about potential narrative undertones, but I thought it would be interesting, nonetheless.

As many may know, the term "Cthulhu Mythos" didn't come about until after HPL died. Lovecraft himself often humorously referred to his tales as "Yog-Sothothery", and sometimes simply "Yog-Sothoth". All things considered, this is quite fitting for Yog-Sothoth's position as something allied with the unbound sweep of existence.

In a letter to Frank Belknap Long, Lovecraft admitted that "Yog-Sothoth" was not serious literature, while simultaneously defending its creation in comparison to reliance on existing mythology.

  • "I really agree that Yog-Sothoth is a basically immature conception, & unfitted for really serious literature. The fact is, I have never approached serious literature yet. But I consider the use of actual folk-myths as even more childish than the use of new artificial myths, since in the former one is forced to retain many blatant peurilities & contradictions of experienced which could be subtilised or smoothed over if the supernaturalism were modelled to order for the given case."
He immediately followed it with what he believed the purpose of Yog-Sothothery to be.

  • "The only permanently artistic use of Yog-Sothothery, I think, is in symbolic or associative phantasy of the frankly poetic type; in which fixed dream-patterns of the natural organism are given an embodiment & crystallisation... But there is another phase of cosmic phantasy (which may or may not include frank Yog-Sothothery) whose foundations appear to me as better grounded than those of ordinary oneiroscopy; personal limitations regarding the sense of outsideness. I refer to the aesthetic crystallisation of that burning & inextinguishable feeling of mixed wonder & oppression which the sensitive imagination experiences upon scaling itself & its restrictions against the vast & provocative abyss of the unknown. This has always been the chief emotion in my psychology; & whilst it obviously figures less in the psychology of the majority, it is clearly a well-defined & permanent factor from which very few sensitive persons are wholly free.... Reason as we may, we cannot destroy a normal perception of the highly limited & fragmentary nature of our visible world of perception & experience as scaled against the outside abyss of unthinkable galaxies & unplumbed dimensions—an abyss wherein our solar system is the merest dot..."
Dream-patterns given form. Our limited perception against an unthinkable abyss we do not understand. Those are Lovecraft's tales. That's Yog-Sothoth(ery).

How fitting then for Azathoth, the being placed at the top of Lovecraft's loose hierarchy, to be the dreamer.

"Out in the mindless void the daemon bore me,

Past the bright clusters of dimensioned space,

Till neither time nor matter stretched before me,

But only Chaos, without form or place.

Here the vast Lord of All in darkness muttered

Things he had dreamed but could not understand,

While near him shapeless bat-things flopped and fluttered

In idiot vortices that ray-streams fanned.

They danced insanely to the high, thin whining

Of a cracked flute clutched in a monstrous paw,

Whence flow the aimless waves whose chance combining

Gives each frail cosmos its eternal law.

"I am His Messenger," the daemon said,

As in contempt he struck his Master's head.
" - Fungi from Yuggoth, XXII. Azathoth

Yog-Sothoth is Lovecraft's stories; the boundless expanse of dreams and unplumbed experience reaching beyond that which we can hold within the confines of our fragile worldview.

Of course, then, Azathoth's meaning is expanded upon. He is not just Lovecraft's view of an uncaring creator of a cosmos we could never hope to grasp, but a creator who is, in some small but noteworthy way, like us. Us "very few sensitive persons who are wholly free". A dreamer of things vast and majestic, which he either cannot fully understand, or simply cares not to. The ultimate dreamer in a world governed by such fanciful things.

This is far from the only interpretation, but I figured I'd share it to show that even from a philosophical perspective, Azathoth is not randomly just slapped at the top. Also, it was kind of fun.”

No one really argued against Azzy being a dreamer except for the only reference to him sleeping being in The Fungi of Yuggoth.
 
Nobody really agreed with the dreaming either, they just agreed with Azathoth being at the top alongside Yog-Sothoth. Because the dream stuff is no longer a thing.
 
The group working on the CRT.

Like really, everyone who walked away from that thread will say that the dream stuff is bunk.
 
I mean, if you say so. Just looked over the thread again, and other than KingPin expressing some doubt, no one really brought up any objections to or even mentioned the dream stuff.
 
Existence being Azathoth's dream was addressed by the OP itself. Azathoth (the Bureaucrat) was merely arguing that this did not mean Azathoth was lesser than Yog Sothoth, as per his accolades
 
I'll admit that my memory of the arguments presented in the thread is fuzzy, but I do remember Azzy bringing up a quote from The Dunwich Horror that attributes Yog-Sothoth as all-encompassing and all-knowing:

"Yog-Sothoth knows the gate. Yog-Sothoth is the gate. Yog-Sothoth is the key and guardian of the gate. Past, present, future, all are one in Yog-Sothoth. He knows where the Old Ones broke through of old, and where They shall break through again. He knows where They have trod earth’s fields, and where They still tread them, and why no one can behold Them as They tread." ~The Dunwich Horror

This happens to be consistent with what Randolph Carter realizes when Yog-Sothoth confronts him:

"It was an All-in-One and One-in-All of limitless being and self—not merely a thing of one Space-Time continuum, but allied to the ultimate animating essence of existence’s whole unbounded sweep—the last, utter sweep which has no confines and which outreaches fancy and mathematics alike. It was perhaps that which certain secret cults of earth have whispered of as YOG-SOTHOTH, and which has been a deity under other names; that which the crustaceans of Yuggoth worship as the Beyond-One, and which the vaporous brains of the spiral nebulae know by an untranslatable Sign—yet in a flash the Carter-facet realised how slight and fractional all these conceptions are." ~Through the Gates of the Silver Key

Also of note is that this is stated to come from a passage of the Necronomicon, which also has instructions on how to summon Yog-Sothoth:

"“More space, Willy, more space soon. Yew grows—an’ that grows faster. It’ll be ready to sarve ye soon, boy. Open up the gates to Yog-Sothoth with the long chant that ye’ll find on page 751 of the complete edition, an’ then put a match to the prison. Fire from airth can’t burn it nohaow.”" ~The Dunwich Horror

"Almost eight feet tall, and carrying a cheap new valise from Osborn’s general store, this dark and goatish gargoyle appeared one day in Arkham in quest of the dreaded volume kept under lock and key at the college library—the hideous Necronomicon of the mad Arab Abdul Alhazred in Olaus Wormius’ Latin version, as printed in Spain in the seventeenth century. He had never seen a city before, but had no thought save to find his way to the university grounds; where, indeed, he passed heedlessly by the great white-fanged watchdog that barked with unnatural fury and enmity, and tugged frantically at its stout chain. Wilbur had with him the priceless but imperfect copy of Dr. Dee’s English version which his grandfather had bequeathed him, and upon receiving access to the Latin copy he at once began to collate the two texts with the aim of discovering a certain passage which would have come on the 751st page of his own defective volume." ~The Dunwich Horror

As well as instructions on how to communicate with 'Umr at-Tawil:

"A moment later Carter knew that this was so, for the Shape had spoken to his mind without sound or language. And though the name it uttered was a dreaded and terrible one, Randolph Carter did not flinch in fear. Instead, he spoke back, equally without sound or language, and made those obeisances which the hideous Necronomicon had taught him to make. For this Shape was nothing less than that which all the world has feared since Lomar rose out of the sea and the Winged Ones came to earth to teach the Elder Lore to man. It was indeed the frightful Guide and Guardian of the Gate—’Umr at-Tawil, the ancient one, which the scribe rendereth the Prolonged of Life." ~Through the Gates of the Silver Key

Based on the above things, it is clear that the Necronomicon is a credible source, although there are some inaccuracies to be found- for example, this excerpt:

"“And while there are those,” the mad Arab had written, “who have dared to seek glimpses beyond the Veil, and to accept HIM as a Guide, they would have been more prudent had they avoided commerce with HIM; for it is written in the Book of Thoth how terrific is the price of a single glimpse. Nor may those who pass ever return, for in the Vastnesses transcending our world are Shapes of darkness that seize and bind. The Affair that shambleth about in the night, the Evil that defieth the Elder Sign, the Herd that stand watch at the secret portal each tomb is known to have, and that thrive on that which groweth out of the tenants within—all these Blacknesses are lesser than HE Who guardeth the Gateway; HE Who will guide the rash one beyond all the worlds into the Abyss of unnamable Devourers. For HE is ’UMR AT-TAWIL, the Most Ancient One, which the scribe rendereth as THE PROLONGED OF LIFE.”" ~Through the Gates of the Silver Key

The author (Abdul Alhazred) talks at length about how the Ancient Ones are these malevolent forces that cannot be trusted, but Randolph Carter realizes how childish of a notion this is:

"The Guide knew, as he knew all things, of Carter’s quest and coming, and that this seeker of dreams and secrets stood before him unafraid. There was no horror or malignity in what he radiated, and Carter wondered for a moment whether the mad Arab’s terrific blasphemous hints, and extracts from the Book of Thoth, might not have come from envy and a baffled wish to do what was now about to be done. Or perhaps the Guide reserved his horror and malignity for those who feared." ~Through the Gates of the Silver Key

"Damnation, he reflected, is but a word bandied about by those whose blindness leads them to condemn all who can see, even with a single eye. He wondered at the vast conceit of those who had babbled of the malignant Ancient Ones, as if They could pause from their everlasting dreams to wreak a wrath upon mankind. As well, he thought, might a mammoth pause to visit frantic vengeance on an angleworm." ~Through the Gates of the Silver Key

-----

Anyway, despite the Necronomicon accurately articulating Yog-Sothoth's boundlessness and even providing ritualistic gestures and chants related to him, Abdul Alhazred still treats Azathoth as the ruler of all things. There are a few references to Azathoth being in the Necronomicon:

"He must meet the Black Man, and go with them all to the throne of Azathoth at the centre of ultimate Chaos. That was what she said. He must sign in his own blood the book of Azathoth and take a new secret name now that his independent delvings had gone so far. What kept him from going with her and Brown Jenkin and the other to the throne of Chaos where the thin flutes pipe mindlessly was the fact that he had seen the name “Azathoth” in the Necronomicon, and knew it stood for a primal evil too horrible for description." ~The Dreams in the Witch House

"There were suggestions of the vague, twilight abysses, and of still vaster, blacker abysses beyond them—abysses in which all fixed suggestions of form were absent. He had been taken there by the bubble-congeries and the little polyhedron which always dogged him; but they, like himself, had changed to wisps of milky, barely luminous mist in this farther void of ultimate blackness. [...] Eventually there had been a hint of vast, leaping shadows, of a monstrous, half-acoustic pulsing, and of the thin, monotonous piping of an unseen flute—but that was all. Gilman decided he had picked up that last conception from what he had read in the Necronomicon about the mindless entity Azathoth, which rules all time and space from a curiously environed black throne at the centre of Chaos." ~The Dreams in the Witch House

"The legend of Yig, Father of Serpents, remained figurative no longer, and I started with loathing when told of the monstrous nuclear chaos beyond angled space which the Necronomicon had mercifully cloaked under the name of Azathoth." ~The Whisperer in Darkness

The second thing explicitly describes Azathoth as the ruler of all time and space, which is further backed up by certain other quotes:

"Out in the mindless void the daemon bore me, Past the bright clusters of dimensioned space, Till neither time nor matter stretched before me, But only Chaos, without form or place. Here the vast Lord of All in darkness muttered Things he had dreamed but could not understand, While near him shapeless bat-things flopped and fluttered In idiot vortices that ray-streams fanned. They danced insanely to the high, thin whining Of a cracked flute clutched in a monstrous paw, Whence flow the aimless waves whose chance combining Gives each frail cosmos its eternal law. “I am His Messenger,” the daemon said, As in contempt he struck his Master’s head." ~Fungi from Yuggoth

"Before his eyes a kaleidoscopic range of phantasmal images played, all of them dissolving at intervals into the picture of a vast, unplumbed abyss of night wherein whirled suns and worlds of an even profounder blackness. He thought of the ancient legends of Ultimate Chaos, at whose centre sprawls the blind idiot god Azathoth, Lord of All Things, encircled by his flopping horde of mindless and amorphous dancers, and lulled by the thin monotonous piping of a daemoniac flute held in nameless paws." ~The Haunter of the Dark

"The passage through the vague abysses would be frightful, for the Walpurgis-rhythm would be vibrating, and at last he would have to hear that hitherto veiled cosmic pulsing which he so mortally dreaded. Even now he could detect a low, monstrous shaking whose tempo he suspected all too well. At Sabbat-time it always mounted and reached through to the worlds to summon the initiate to nameless rites. Half the chants of the Sabbat were patterned on this faintly overheard pulsing which no earthly ear could endure in its unveiled spatial fulness. Gilman wondered, too, whether he could trust his instinct to take him back to the right part of space. How could he be sure he would not land on that green-litten hillside of a far planet, on the tessellated terrace above the city of tentacled monsters somewhere beyond the galaxy, or in the spiral black vortices of that ultimate void of Chaos wherein reigns the mindless daemon-sultan Azathoth?" ~The Dreams in the Witch House

Meanwhile, Yog-Sothoth is identified with all time and space:

"Then, in the midst of these devastating reflections, Carter’s beyond-the-gate fragment was hurled from what had seemed the nadir of horror to black, clutching pits of a horror still more profound. This time it was largely external—a force or personality which at once confronted and surrounded and pervaded him, and which in addition to its local presence, seemed also to be a part of himself, and likewise to be coexistent with all time and coterminous with all space. There was no visual image, yet the sense of entity and the awful concept of combined localism, identity, and infinity lent a paralysing terror beyond anything which any Carter-fragment had hitherto deemed capable of existing." ~Through the Gates of the Silver Key

-----

With all of this out of the way, I still can't give a concrete answer as to how Yog-Sothoth and Azathoth compare to each other. An agreement will be reached sooner or later, but for now, I want you guys to draw your own conclusions based on everything I just said in this post and in my last few posts on the other thread.
 
Yeah; I agree that Azathoth rules over Yog. I know that people like to treat the family tree as a non-canon goof, but it's one of the few pieces of writing where the two of them are brought up together, straight from the author himself.
 
He "predates" Yog, that doesn't necessarily indicate superiority. I think this was even brought up by Aeyu during the revisions. They're equivalent to each other but there's very little to show if one's explicitly superior.
 
All of existence is just a tiny facet of Yog-Sothoth, including even the other Archetypes. I don't think this includes Azathoth but I'm not sure if that's enough for him to be superior to Yog-Sothoth.
 
So how exactly does azzy scale to yog and where does it come from, if he's not a part for yoggy, or is that still being discussed
 
Azathoth would be the lord of all existence and its nucleus while Yog-Sothoth would be the "surrounding" and all-encompassing boundless being.

Both would be parts of a single whole if I'm getting this right.
 
Also from what I've heard, the azzy waking up and destroying everything is untrue and it comes from demonbane or was just a misinterpretation. And that when azzy wakes, he just goes on a rampage?
 
The whole scenario of waking up is never, ever brought up even once in the entirety of canon.
 
I think? Even the bit about sleeping is mentioned a grand total of one time in all of Lovecraft's stories.

I'd like Azathoth to be the slumbering creator, I really would. I actually think it fits him quite well. However, there's not much going to support that as far as evidence goes.
 
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