-
This forum is strictly intended to be used by members of the VS Battles wiki. Please only register if you have an autoconfirmed account there, as otherwise your registration will be rejected. If you have already registered once, do not do so again, and contact Antvasima if you encounter any problems.
For instructions regarding the exact procedure to sign up to this forum, please click here. -
We need Patreon donations for this forum to have all of its running costs financially secured.
Community members who help us out will receive badges that give them several different benefits, including the removal of all advertisements in this forum, but donations from non-members are also extremely appreciated.
Please click here for further information, or here to directly visit our Patreon donations page. -
Please click here for information about a large petition to help children in need.
Waking up from the Dream (2-B Mario Downgrades)
- Thread starter Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara
- Start date
- Status
- 15,603
- 22,927
Neutral on the Void stuff, agree with everything else.
Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara
She/Her- 9,828
- 12,453
- Thread starter
- #43
This is a fair point, I'll have to look more into the statements of the Void destruction. However, world 4 is legitimately infinite so it'd be high 3-A.
However, since there seems to be some confusion over the Void scaling in general, Kirb and I will be making a post/edit concerning whether or not the worlds in SPM share a single space-time.
- 6,060
- 1,085
NOA translated it as Dimension.
Localization is obviously not infallible however, so take it with a grain of salt.
Kirbonic_Pikmin
He/Him- 3,480
- 6,940
I'm a bit busy with IRL stuff atm, something came up that'll have my attention mostly for the next couple days.
I'll try and comb through everything I can with Fuji to have as cohesive a post about how to handle Void stuff during that time, as the Void seems to ultimately be causing the most contention, and me and Fuji definitely should have prepared a bigger section for Void stuff in general
it seems I foolishly forgot how the Void alone dragged the last 2B removal thread on for like 5 whole pages
I'll try and comb through everything I can with Fuji to have as cohesive a post about how to handle Void stuff during that time, as the Void seems to ultimately be causing the most contention, and me and Fuji definitely should have prepared a bigger section for Void stuff in general
- 15,476
- 7,192
An issue I have with those translation is that they don't have the raw text on it so we can copy it and personally check.
We should wait for the imgur scans to get updated with the raw text so we can personally see from ourselves.
We should wait for the imgur scans to get updated with the raw text so we can personally see from ourselves.
Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara
She/Her- 9,828
- 12,453
- Thread starter
- #47
Well, the main issue is that "dimension" is a localization only thing, and isn't present in the Japanese version. Mario games have previously had issues with stuff like this before (like how painting worlds in SM64 were low 2-C before the Japanese text revealed that wasn't the case).
- 10,545
- 12,386
Same overall
Kirbonic_Pikmin
He/Him- 3,480
- 6,940
It wouldn't really make sense logically. Future Dream is expressly the dream of the universe, it wouldn't make sense for there to be several duplications of it within the Dream Depot. This stands for essentially any dream really. It also wouldn't make sense for these to be duplications of the dream, because the characters expressly just go tot he same one within MP5, there's no indication they're going to an identical, yet completely separate dream every time they revisit the map.
- 341
- 85
It also wouldn't make Sense for Future Dream to be Split into chunks either if its a single Dream. Not to Mention its the Dream Depots Job to gather Multiple Dreams from the World. Duplications of a Dream World are bound to happen and have happened.
Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara
She/Her- 9,828
- 12,453
- Thread starter
- #52
So multiple people have a perfectly identical dream in which identical events play out, all of which are accessed by the Mario cast at the same point in the story (because we literally see their actions being replayed in the dreams) despite how all of these are massive reaches that you have provided 0 evidence for beyond (yeah but what if it did work like that".
Them being subdivisions of a dream is just a case of Occam's Razor, since other interpretations require logical leaps that do not have the evidence to back them up.
Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara
She/Her- 9,828
- 12,453
- Thread starter
- #53
Finished the post I mentioned earlier with @Kirbonic_Pikmin's help. I've also added it to the OP, since I think it'll support the proposals a lot more than what we have now.
Void Stuff (Continued)
The worlds in SPM are treated as being separate dimensions/universes, which is the basis of the Void being above one universe in AP. However, as explained above, the mentions of “dimensions” would be more accurately considered “worlds” without much context proving they’re separate space-times.
As explained previously, the Underwhere and Overthere are just the underground and sky relative to the world at large. We can see this in world 7, where being launched into space has a visual of you getting thrown out of earth’s atmosphere, and into space, which is visually identical to world 4. So, worlds 7 and 4 at bare minimum share a cosmology, laying the groundwork for “worlds” not being different universes.
Regular characters with no capabilities of dimensional travel are repeatedly shown to be able to enter and exit these realms, as shown by how they frequently recall events from different worlds, as well as collect souvenirs from them. This is further supported by how the monsters in the Pit of 100 Trials are stated to come from all around the world, singular, despite many of them being world-specific.
The Woah Zone, a place outside of space, is not at all affected by the Void. This means the Void cannot affect anything outside the universe, even further supported by how Dimension D, an actual alternate dimension, also lacks the Void in any capacity.
Now, there are some common counterarguments to these points, which I’ll address below.
“The different worlds in SPM have different skies, so they must be different worlds.”
This is silly for a few reasons, but above all else would be this level from NSMBU. Different verses, sure, but it sets a precedent for individual levels within the same space-time having wildly different skies. Or we could go with TTYD, in which you can see different colored skies on the same planet (here, here, and here). Of course, it doesn’t make much sense to say that different skies = different dimensions in the first place when our own planet has a ton of different skies.
“Mario is said to come from another dimension.”
True! A different dimension from Flipside, a place which is not a dimension in and of itself. This means anywhere, even a low 2-C structure containing all the worlds in SPM, would be a “different dimension” from Flipside, so this doesn’t prove that these worlds are different dimensions from each other... Just that they're a different dimension from Flipside.
“The Void affected Flipside, which is in-between dimensions.”
That’s just the thing though; Flipside is the space between dimensions, but isn’t a dimension in and of itself. Of the worlds we know to be different dimensions (like Dimension D and the Woah Zone), none are affected by the Void. So while it can reach the space between those dimensions, it can go no farther (like being able to walk to a bus stop, but being unable to board the bus).
TL;DR: All the worlds in SPM are shown to share the same space-time, and the Void is consistently incapable of affecting anything outside of one space-time.
Void Stuff (Continued)
The worlds in SPM are treated as being separate dimensions/universes, which is the basis of the Void being above one universe in AP. However, as explained above, the mentions of “dimensions” would be more accurately considered “worlds” without much context proving they’re separate space-times.
As explained previously, the Underwhere and Overthere are just the underground and sky relative to the world at large. We can see this in world 7, where being launched into space has a visual of you getting thrown out of earth’s atmosphere, and into space, which is visually identical to world 4. So, worlds 7 and 4 at bare minimum share a cosmology, laying the groundwork for “worlds” not being different universes.
Regular characters with no capabilities of dimensional travel are repeatedly shown to be able to enter and exit these realms, as shown by how they frequently recall events from different worlds, as well as collect souvenirs from them. This is further supported by how the monsters in the Pit of 100 Trials are stated to come from all around the world, singular, despite many of them being world-specific.
The Woah Zone, a place outside of space, is not at all affected by the Void. This means the Void cannot affect anything outside the universe, even further supported by how Dimension D, an actual alternate dimension, also lacks the Void in any capacity.
Now, there are some common counterarguments to these points, which I’ll address below.
“The different worlds in SPM have different skies, so they must be different worlds.”
This is silly for a few reasons, but above all else would be this level from NSMBU. Different verses, sure, but it sets a precedent for individual levels within the same space-time having wildly different skies. Or we could go with TTYD, in which you can see different colored skies on the same planet (here, here, and here). Of course, it doesn’t make much sense to say that different skies = different dimensions in the first place when our own planet has a ton of different skies.
“Mario is said to come from another dimension.”
True! A different dimension from Flipside, a place which is not a dimension in and of itself. This means anywhere, even a low 2-C structure containing all the worlds in SPM, would be a “different dimension” from Flipside, so this doesn’t prove that these worlds are different dimensions from each other... Just that they're a different dimension from Flipside.
“The Void affected Flipside, which is in-between dimensions.”
That’s just the thing though; Flipside is the space between dimensions, but isn’t a dimension in and of itself. Of the worlds we know to be different dimensions (like Dimension D and the Woah Zone), none are affected by the Void. So while it can reach the space between those dimensions, it can go no farther (like being able to walk to a bus stop, but being unable to board the bus).
TL;DR: All the worlds in SPM are shown to share the same space-time, and the Void is consistently incapable of affecting anything outside of one space-time.
- 341
- 85
12:21
Well first I'd like to address is Something this clip acknowledges. A single person can create Multiple Dreams. The Battle Ring Creates multiple Dreams from Mario and Luigi's past, Making duplicate dreams of both the Dream world and Real world events. So yes, A person can create a duplicate Dreams of another Dream. They can even have dreams about things that have happened in the past.
Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara
She/Her- 9,828
- 12,453
- Thread starter
- #55
Kirbonic_Pikmin
He/Him- 3,480
- 6,940
So you start the clip at 12:21, but if you scroll back to 12:03, you'll notice that Dreambert says that sleeping on this Dreampoint specifically causes you to dream of previous encounters. This is denoted to be a causation of the specific spot in his castle that you sleep on, and not something that can naturally occur. It's also just a single dream in which you can re-fight prior bosses, not separate ones.
One more thing I'd like to note about characters creating only one dream, characters like the Pill'os who have been petrified for at least entire decades, if not longer, are shown to have only dreamed and existed within a single dream world during all that time, this applies to every single petrified Pill'o you run into, which are essentially all of the Dream Worlds you enter in Dream Team, so realistically characters, even ones asleep for literal decades, are only shown to create one dream on their own.
- 341
- 85
Well its clearly not a single Dream, There are multiple copies of a dream world within this Dream point that are separate from one another, Not only that but this isn't the only piece evidence i have. Specifically the Antasma Boss fight Shows Mario in a duplicate Dream World of the arena there fighting in.
3:14
So you can have duplicate worlds outside of the Battle Ring.
3:14
So you can have duplicate worlds outside of the Battle Ring.
Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara
She/Her- 9,828
- 12,453
- Thread starter
- #60
Except Antasma opens a portal to some random dream in the intro to the boss fight, while the dream Mario has is his own dream. It's two separate dreams dreamt up by different people, a reused tileset hardly proves them being 1 to 1 copies of each other. This is just someone dreaming while in a dream, which is weird, yeah, but that doesn't prove every dream has multiple copies of itself just laying around.
- 341
- 85
That's not what I'm saying at all though. I'm saying people can dream up copies of Another Dream. It's still Mario's dream but a Copy of the dream where they were fighting. Not necessarily 1-1 but copies just the same as opposed to future Dream being split up into Chunks. Dreams being able to duplicate things is something that commonly happens in dream team.
The First Boss fight in Dream Team was actually a Nightmare Luigi was having but in that Nightmare we See Pillo Island. So this Dream is a Duplication of the real World.
5:52
A good example of duplicate Dreams.
Both Mario and Luigi Have the Same Exact Nightmare.
13:11
There's also this scene right here where prince pillo mentions Dreams using subconscious thoughts like memories and recreating them within a dream.
54:00
This clearly shows that an individual's own dream can Mimic or Recreate either a Real world environment or Another Dreams Environment. So the multiple Future Dreams aren't Splits or Chunks but rather an individual's copy of Future dream.
- 3,719
- 2,778
Well this died.
I personally agree with the Dream Stone downgrade ATM, but I don't agree with the Void downgrade.
We also haven't even figured out what tier it'd go down to. Others have suggested 2-C works which I'm inclined to agree with
I personally agree with the Dream Stone downgrade ATM, but I don't agree with the Void downgrade.
We also haven't even figured out what tier it'd go down to. Others have suggested 2-C works which I'm inclined to agree with
Kirbonic_Pikmin
He/Him- 3,480
- 6,940
Fuji proposed H3A/L2C, since it is 100% no matter what affecting the infinite space of World 4. The current ongoing debate is just if it will end up reaching 2C or not.
Fuji and I are kinda pouring over whatever angles we can to see if there’s something we’re missing in the meantime while we wait for input (and we’re also both working on various blogs that are taking our attention away).
If you meant the Dream Stone, it’d likely just massively upscale from 3C.
Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara
She/Her- 9,828
- 12,453
- Thread starter
- #64
I do remember saying in the OP, the Dream Stone will be "at least 3-C", while the Void would go down to low 2-C (although I can cope with 2-C).
Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara
She/Her- 9,828
- 12,453
- Thread starter
- #65
This doesn't prove there are multiple copies of the same dream, just that someone can dream of a single area in a dream.
It doesn't even say that, though... Just that they both had nightmares.
Luigi recreates one (1) dude in his dream, which is not at all comparable to creating 1 to 1 copies of entire universes. It isn't even copying another dream, either, so it's wholly irrelevant. We know dreams are based off the real world, but that doesn't prove every dream has multiple copies of itself lying around, so we'd need evidence of that.
- 1,681
- 785
- 341
- 85
If someone can dream up of the same area/Environment from another dream, then those aren't splits or Factures of future Dreams. It's just an individuals dream mimicking the environment of Future Dream.
Prior to Dreambert Waking them up there are several lines of text describing the Dreams that Mario and Luigi are having. It's implied they are having the same nightmare.
Luigi in the beginning of the Game also recreates Pillo Island and My argument is more around the idea that Future Dream isn't being split into Chunks like your saying rather that there are Just Dreams Copying the enviroment of future Dream and that's what we're seeing in the Credits.
- 3,719
- 2,778
See, things like this are always weird, because when you downgrade the Dream Stone to 3-C, regardless of "massively upscaling" it suddenly doesn't seem like much of an outlier anymore next to the bajillion 3-Cs and multiple ways of augmenting strength these characters can do.
Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara
She/Her- 9,828
- 12,453
- Thread starter
- #69
You're saying that this CAN be the case, but it obviously isn't always. The landscapes Luigi dreams of are often notably different than their real-world counterparts, so if anything Luigi's dreams should disprove dream duplicates being a thing.
To me it sounds like they're sharing the same dream, rather than having two separate but identical dreams (which we know to be possible because of Dreamspots).
You've provided no evidence for this beyond "we can see a recreation of a single real world location in a dream, which means every instance of a dream is in fact a perfect duplicate of itself". Like, that's such a massive reach I'm almost tempted to call it derailing.
Well, we got enough votes for the Dream Stone downgrades, so I could maybe just nuke the dream scaling, downgrade the Void to 2-C, and save the other stuff for a rainy day.
Kirbonic_Pikmin
He/Him- 3,480
- 6,940
I mean, it'd make the Antasma fight significantly less of an outlier I suppose, but the Dream Stone would still scale far above them via lore and such, a gap a bit too large to reasonably say they could just close. I could see debates for it maybe being 3B if that makes it any better.
Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara
She/Her- 9,828
- 12,453
- Thread starter
- #71
Bump
- 1,681
- 785
nah, take your time
gives me the extra time I need to reread and correct anything I overlooked
Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara
She/Her- 9,828
- 12,453
- Thread starter
- #73
Bump
- 1,311
- 3,606
Bump
Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara
She/Her- 9,828
- 12,453
- Thread starter
- #75
Bump
Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara
She/Her- 9,828
- 12,453
- Thread starter
- #76
Bump
Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara
She/Her- 9,828
- 12,453
- Thread starter
- #77
Bump
- 1,311
- 3,606
Bump
Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara
She/Her- 9,828
- 12,453
- Thread starter
- #80
Bump
Ngl, I might just apply the Dream Stone downgrades by themselves and do the Void stuff later if no more staff show up.
Ngl, I might just apply the Dream Stone downgrades by themselves and do the Void stuff later if no more staff show up.
- Status
Similar threads
