WAHOOOO! Mario Bros AP Revision/Upgrade! (M&L Brothership Spoilers)

[Chariot190]

Hopefully this is enough to support a High 6-A rating?

Not really, mostly because the High 6-A stuff is faulty from the getgo. The cord feat is just kinda ******* weird and at least subject to a bunch of lil fuckys. The ice flower feat we've already went through, it just isn't High 6-A to begin with because why would it only be talking about the surface? Timeframe ultra complicates it too.

But inversely Shadow Queen's feat is actually 6-B (she shakes the whole planet) not 6-C so ig that could be used as support for the High 6-B if someone can figure out a legit reason to scale off her tbh her 6-B feat is like done passively without effort so they probably scale anyway, but the fact remains she shit stomps Mario at that time so need to find a hard reason to scale afterward even if I'm sure Mario scales to her just vibing out. You know how it be, wiki standards and stuff.

 

[Chariot190]

Happened after Paper Jam, so unusable for mainline Mario scaling.

Or that yeah, Jan 2016 vs oct 2016. Mario is stuck in 6-C hell ig.

 

[DaReaperMan]

Or that yeah, Jan 2016 vs oct 2016. Mario is stuck in 6-C hell ig.

It is usable for High 6-B Paper Mario though

so that's something.

 

[Chariot190]

It is usable for High 6-B Paper Mario though

so that's something.

Paper Mario supremacy wins again bby
except that game ******* sucks, big number off shit game feels ******' bad.

 

[Eden_Warlock99]

Not really, mostly because the High 6-A stuff is faulty from the getgo. The cord feat is just kinda ******* weird and at least subject to a bunch of lil fuckys. The ice flower feat we've already went through, it just isn't High 6-A to begin with because why would it only be talking about the surface? Timeframe ultra complicates it too.

Your forgot the Star Rod feat.
The cord feat also legit happens on-screen so I don't really see the problem with it? Don't see why we couldn't just fix these problems either?

 

[Omegabronic]

Happened after Paper Jam, so unusable for mainline Mario scaling.

HUh, Paper Mario only has 1 base key tho?

 

[koopa3144]

HUh, Paper Mario only has 1 base key tho?

Iirc Paper Mario was supposed to get keys for different games after he was split from the main Mario profile but no one ever worked on it.

 

[Chariot190]

Your forgot the Star Rod feat.
The cord feat also legit happens on-screen so I don't really see the problem with it? Don't see why we couldn't just fix these problems either?

Link the Star Rod feat, it ain't in the OP I think? Also like, Mario doesn't really scale to Star rod normally?
Even IF you go "he can chip damage", you gotta realize, ignoring the fact that's not exactly intentional, that's still Mario dealing FIVE times less damage he normally would.

And good question, i'm not really sure how you'd go about fixing it though, it's not really a math thing but more just how you go about it.

Though either way that still just leaves us back where we were.

HUh, Paper Mario only has 1 base key tho?

If we're assuming he gets stronger over time, which, I've seen lads argue like twenty times literally was proposed in this VERY thread for bonetail yap as an example. Mario having a feat that eclipses his past feats by like 1000-1000000x in a game that happens AFTER a viable scaling point, is super problematic as he almost certainly got stronger between then and when the new feat happened, it'd be like trying to scale Android 20 off Buu because both could mess Goku, even though Goku got a fucktrillion times stronger. Unless Mario's base is universally static and he doesn't get stronger at all, in which case it'd be fine but like, kind of a weird thing to argue for an RPG.

 

[Omegabronic]

Link the Star Rod feat, it ain't in the OP I think? Also like, Mario doesn't really scale to Star rod normally?
Even IF you go "he can chip damage", you gotta realize, ignoring the fact that's not exactly intentional, that's still Mario dealing FIVE times less damage he normally would.

And good question, i'm not really sure how you'd go about fixing it though, it's not really a math thing but more just how you go about it.

Though either way that still just leaves us back where we were.

If we're assuming he gets stronger over time, which, I've seen lads argue like twenty times literally was proposed in this VERY thread for bonetail yap as an example. Mario having a feat that eclipses his past feats by like 1000-1000000x in a game that happens AFTER a viable scaling point, is super problematic as he almost certainly got stronger between then and when the new feat happened, it'd be like trying to scale Android 20 off Buu because both could mess Goku, even though Goku got a fucktrillion times stronger. Unless Mario's base is universally static and he doesn't get stronger at all, in which case it'd be fine but like, kind of a weird thing to argue for an RPG.

Does he have such statements in Color splash tho?

 

[Chariot190]

Does he have such statements in Color splash tho?

Does it even matter, if bro just grows in power over time, that just becomes the default assumption when he suddenly gets better feats above what he was at before. You'd have to assume he suddenly stopped for some reason.

And I mean, yeah? He levels up and gets stronger throughout the game? Just like every other Paper Mario.

 

[Ghengiroo115]

Personally I’m for Mario characters getting stronger over time since there’s a lot of situations that either imply or just outright state so, however would all of the time travel plots cause an issue with that? A lot of games involve the present cast interacting significantly with their past selves, such as Partners in Time, two Yoshi’s Island games and a bunch of spin-off games like Mario Kart. I know other verses just ignore the implications time travel plots have on a growing power level, but in the case of Mario it happens so often that it becomes trickier.

 

[Chariot190]

Personally I’m for Mario characters getting stronger over time since there’s a lot of situations that either imply or just outright state so, however would all of the time travel plots cause an issue with that? A lot of games involve the present cast interacting significantly with their past selves, such as Partners in Time, two Yoshi’s Island games and a bunch of spin-off party games like Mario Kart. I know other verses just ignore the implications time travel plots have on a growing power level, but in the case of Mario it happens so often that it becomes trickier.

i mean the actual answer is Mario has an established power for each line of games, Mario & Luigi is pretty hyper consistently within 7-6, while something like New Super is more low 8 and galaxy is like ******* 3-something. We just composite them because they're all canon to each other and try to find a middle ground that works best when really, M&L Mario would beat the shit out of 2D Mario, and Galaxy Mario would take M&L Mario out back. Mario is consistent within subsections of the verse, but can vary widly between them. His power is tuned to the premise and scale of the games in question because no shit, Nintendo don't care about how strong he "should" be, we just don't treat him like that so like, shrug, not much to do. This obviously applies to Time Travel stuff, although Partners is super fucky because Baby Mario would beat the shit out of Superstar Saga Mario at the end of the game, as Baby Mario gets stronger throughout the game too, which directly means Baby Mario > Adult Mario < Also Adult Mario but like a few months later. But like that's just MY opinion rat smoking a cig emoji.png.

 

[Dust_Collector]

Personally I’m for Mario characters getting stronger over time since there’s a lot of situations that either imply or just outright state so, however would all of the time travel plots cause an issue with that? A lot of games involve the present cast interacting significantly with their past selves, such as Partners in Time, two Yoshi’s Island games, a bunch of spin-off party games, etc. I know other verses just ignore the implications time travel plots have on a growing power level, but in the case of Mario it happens so often that it becomes trickier.

For the Yoshi games at least you can kinda argue that the Yoshis in that game are kinda absurdly strong (They can pretty much low diff Baby Bowser until Kamek boosts him and struggle a lot more with adult Bowser, and the babies don't really do much without power ups) but then Partners in Time and various spin offs throw a wrench in that.

 

[Dust_Collector]

i mean the actual answer is Mario has an established power for each line of games, Mario & Luigi is pretty hyper consistently within 7-6, while something like New Super is more low 8 and galaxy is like ******* 3-something. We just composite them because they're all canon to each other and try to find a middle ground that works best when really, M&L Mario would beat the shit out of 2D Mario, and Galaxy Mario would take M&L Mario out back. Mario is consistent within subsections of the verse, but can vary widly between them. His power is tuned to the premise and scale of the games in question because no shit, Nintendo don't care about how strong he "should" be, we just don't treat him like that so like, shrug, not much to do. This obviously applies to Time Travel stuff, although Partners is super fucky because Baby Mario would beat the shit out of Superstar Saga Mario at the end of the game, as Baby Mario gets stronger throughout the game too, which directly means Baby Mario > Adult Mario < Also Adult Mario but like a few months later. But like that's just MY opinion rat smoking a cig emoji.png.

It's time we use that Miyamota statement of the Mario cast being a troupe to give them the varies rating they deserve

 

[Armorchompy]

For the Yoshi games at least you can kinda argue that the Yoshis in that game are kinda absurdly strong (They can pretty much low diff Baby Bowser until Kamek boosts him and struggle a lot more with adult Bowser, and the babies don't really do much without power ups) but then Partners in Time and various spin offs throw a wrench in that.

Maybe the bros just really fell off during puberty. They've never made a game about Toddler Luigi because he'd be invincible

 

[Dust_Collector]

True

 

[IDK3465]

Hold on- will we still use the cord-throwing feat or not? And if not, why is it unusable? I personally saw no issues with the calc myself, but idk.

 

[Mephistus]

Mario dealing FIVE times less damage he normally would.

This is probably fair since mario's storing up energy from one attack each time? Min to just get through the barrier is like 3 charges for "chip damage" up to outright defeating bowser in that state so x4 less than base if someone wants to get that footage Still is 6-a ig or just give him a charged key

 

[Eden_Warlock99]

Link the Star Rod feat, it ain't in the OP I think? Also like, Mario doesn't really scale to Star rod normally?
Even IF you go "he can chip damage", you gotta realize, ignoring the fact that's not exactly intentional, that's still Mario dealing FIVE times less damage he normally would.

Here it be. It's really high into High 6-A (Only around 10 Exatons below 5-C) so downscaling from it should still be High 6-A.
There's also the Paper Mario getting stronger every game stuff, so this is technically the weakest Paper Mario, kinda.

 

[Chariot190]

Here it be. It's really high into High 6-A (Only around 10 Exatons below 5-C) so downscaling from it should still be High 6-A.
There's also the Paper Mario getting stronger every game stuff, so this is technically the weakest Paper Mario, kinda.

Yeah so like, it being almost moon level ain't a good thing when the best support ya got is 100000x lower.

 

[Eden_Warlock99]

Yeah so like, it being almost moon level ain't a good thing when the best support ya got is 100000x lower.

Some Tiers do be really big, and the cord feat is only around x2500 lower, which is a lot but ehhh.

 

[Chariot190]

Some Tiers do be really big, and the cord feat is only around x2500 lower, which is a lot but ehhh.

I mean yeah, but it has nothing to do with tiers. Something like a High 8-C being buffed to 8-A off a lone feat (less than a 10x gap and a whole tier skipped) would be more acceptable compared to a low 9-B being upgraded to still 9-B+ (25000-50000x gap).

 

[Mephistus]

This is probably fair since mario's storing up energy from one attack each time? Min to just get through the barrier is like 3 charges for "chip damage" up to outright defeating bowser in that state so x4 less than base if someone wants to get that footage Still is 6-a ig or just give him a charged key

Actually, if you are max level like in the video below (27, although you could probably be a quite a bit less leveled) you can demonstrably just straight up hit through it without even using charges tbh. Just hit em' with a single mega jump, none of the smash charge or jump charge needed (although cooler looking & smarter to use in the overall fight for continual attacking strats). I think this was intended anyway with the way another person here brought up Goombario saying he's only nearly invincible, with also being able to alternate using the star beam along with standard attacks to win the fight if bowser acknowledges its usage in the final phase.


Edit: Or ig he can also do it through freaking standard hammer attacks if leveled up enough, kek (and you don't need a power plus badge, you really don't even need to use the badges tbh...just decent lvl).

w/o the power plus badge you can hit 2 on him.

 

[Chariot190]

"He's nearly invincible"
Is kind of a huge red flag. It means almost nothing they can does anything at all. No other verse would take "he's almost invincible" with a mechanic that nullfies most damage to mean there's scaling going on.

"If you level up to the maximum level cap by grinding and have the right badges and do a super attack you can actually deal damage".

I really don't get this, why the actual grasping while ignoring the blatant narrative that Mario couldn't do shit to him (even in game he does far less than he should, and in most cases doesn't do anything at all), all while he was holding back let alone using the full power of the Star Rod to amp himself, a fact that ended up making him completely invincible full stop anyhow given he says "I'm gonna use the full power now", then he's suddenly untouchable (why are we focusing on a fight where he literally isn't use the full power for scaling anyway?).

Like you can level up to max level and one shot most of the bosses too after the intro, do they actually not scale to Mario and should be downgraded?

 

[Armorchompy]

I honestly just don't think being capable of hurting him in gameplay matters so much. Like yeah you can but the characters only ever treat the Star Spirits as the one thing that can threaten Bowser when he's got the invulnerability up. Even during the final boss battle after that fight they only ever refer to the Spirits as what can beat him. Just because he's vulnerable in gameplay doesn't mean Mario can actually stand up to him in combat, especially given the entire purpose of the game is gathering a means of defeating him.

Two other things are worth mentioning. First off, after that fight Bowser mentions it was just a warm-up to him. Now admittedly it's not too unlikely he's just trying to save face but it is true that he's capable of fighting Mario immediately afterwards again without much issue, so there's gotta be some truth to it. Second, even stating that the High 6-A amp applies to Bowser at all is questionable. Like yes, it is capable of causing that much environmental destruction, that doesn't necessarily mean it can 1-to-1 amp someone like that. King Goomba who you fight like ten minutes into the game was also amped by the Star Rod and Mario (who got stomped by SR Bowser just before) has no problem beating him, and the same counts for various other bosses throughout the game. Mario isn't exactly a series with a hard power system, it's been taken at face value that the Star Rod can amp Bowser to such levels but I don't really think that's a guarantee.

So like in conclusion you have an instance of Mario being capable of doing some minor damage to Bowser in gameplay while being pretty clearly treated as unable to actually compete with him in the narrative, all based on a feat that's questionably applicable in the first place. It's not completely unviable as a feat on its own but I think it's a bit weird to give this so much weight in such a big series. Like, just Bowser himself has canonically lost three times in a row by being grabbed by the tail and tossed into some tiny 9-B bombs, and about a hundred times by being dropped into lava. Why are we disregarding those multiple, 100% canonical in story/gameplay showings in favor of one that's based on such shaky logic, other than the fact that the latter leads to a bigger rating?

 

[Imaginym]

"He's nearly invincible"
Is kind of a huge red flag. It means almost nothing they can does anything at all. No other verse would take "he's almost invincible" with a mechanic that nullfies most damage to mean there's scaling going on.

"If you level up to the maximum level cap by grinding and have the right badges and do a super attack you can actually deal damage".

I really don't get this, why the actual grasping while ignoring the blatant narrative that Mario couldn't do shit to him (even in game he does far less than he should, and in most cases doesn't do anything at all), all while he was holding back let alone using the full power of the Star Rod to amp himself, a fact that ended up making him completely invincible full stop anyhow given he says "I'm gonna use the full power now", then he's suddenly untouchable (why are we focusing on a fight where he literally isn't use the full power for scaling anyway?).

Like you can level up to max level and one shot most of the bosses too after the intro, do they actually not scale to Mario and should be downgraded?

I haven't checked the original Japanese language dialogue for any nuance I may be missing, but we may wish to consider the full Tattle quote.
From the Mario Wiki:

"It's the Evil King Bowser! Finally, after all this time! Max HP: 50, Defense Power: 1 He has a huge arsenal of attacks, from blowing clouds of fire to jumping on us. Fire Attack: 8, Stamp Attack/Nail Attack: 6 I'm sure he has other attacks that I don't know. Boy, does he look nasty! He's strong enough as it is, but I'm sure he can use that Star Rod to increase his power until he's nearly invincible. Princess Peach needs us! Let's take him, Mario!"

Goombario's dialogue is in, context, "He's strong enough as it is, but I'm sure he can use that Star Rod to increase his power until he's nearly invincible.".

Goombario is pretty reliable about info, though not infallible, so I'd take this with a grain of salt, & recommend consulting the original Japanese quote.

The first part implies comparability, or that Goombario is afraid of Mario. (Naturally, since Goombario is likely an inferior comparable to either of them.)

To me, "until" suggests prolonged or repeated use, but AFAIK, Hallway Bowser (The form of Bowser this quote is from.) only has one Star-Amped state, & can't stack Star Rod buffs to get stronger; Actual Invincibility is with his Power Poad or whatever it's called that Kammy provided.

 

[Imaginym]

Two other things are worth mentioning. First off, after that fight Bowser mentions it was just a warm-up to him. Now admittedly it's not too unlikely he's just trying to save face but it is true that he's capable of fighting Mario immediately afterwards again without much issue, so there's gotta be some truth to it.

I do have some doubts about this. (Again, advocating a translation check.)
Bower is ALWAYS confident that THIS time he'll beat Mario for sure. Even at the end of PM64, when he's laying on the ground atop his Power Pad, he laments becoming invincible & still losing.

So like in conclusion you have an instance of Mario being capable of doing some minor damage to Bowser in gameplay while being pretty clearly treated as unable to actually compete with him in the narrative,

"Unable to compete with him in the narrative"? But narratively, it is through a NECESSARY and acknowledged victory by Mario against Bowser that Mario prevails, even without using the Star Beam!
& as mentioned, his base Ultra Hammer attacks can harm Star Rod-amped Hallway Bowser.

 

[Chariot190]

To me, "until" suggests prolonged or repeated use, but AFAIK, Hallway Bowser (The form of Bowser this quote is from.)

Koops ends the fight just fine without any visible damage and says he was basically sandbagging.
The fact you need to be omega excessive and ca't hurt him 99% of the time even then... Not a good sign.

Mind you the actual intended way to beat him is to use the Star Spirits to neg his invul buff.


The whole "just hit through it lmao", is NOT how you're supposed to do it, and it isn't even up for debate because in phase 2 on they say
"that weak attack doesn't effect me anymore" and the partners show shock that it doesn't.

What this means, is that's pretty evident that they used that move in Phase 1 to negate his invul, because no shit, it's why they're talking as if it did work.

only has one Star-Amped state, & can't stack Star Rod buffs to get stronger; Actual Invincibility is with his Power Poad or whatever it's called that Kammy provided.

Kammy explicitly refers to the Star Spirits as what's dangerous, and made it to amp his power.
Even after the hallway fight, Mario isn't recognized as an issue in the slightest nor a threat, only the Star dudes.

The worst part of all this, is that it doesn't actually matter,


The invincibility comes solely from the Star Rod, not Kammy.
Kammy made him innately stronger, he gets bigger, his base stats go up, they say and show all this, she did make him stronger sure, but the "im so strong i cant be hurt" was due to the Star Rod explicitly, not her, we know this because he literally says so himself, and when the Star Rod buff gets canceled, he's stronger than normal, but can be hurt just fine by everything, he lacks invul completely yet having Kammy's buff still.

Which is to say, Kammy buffing Koops, has absolutely nothing to do with him amping via the Star Rod. What we know her amp did is inconsequential to the invul.

 

[Chariot190]

I do have some doubts about this. (Again, advocating a translation check.)
Bower is ALWAYS confident that THIS time he'll beat Mario for sure. Even at the end of PM64, when he's laying on the ground atop his Power Pad, he laments becoming invincible & still losing.

Kammy doesn't even recognize him as a threat, and it's a lil different when he HAS stomped him, and literally has a magic wand that makes it so Mario needs 7 dudes to neg the amp just so he can hurt him.

"Unable to compete with him in the narrative"? But narratively, it is through an NECESSARY and acknowledged victory by Mario against Bowser that Bowser prevails, even without using the Star Beam!

That isn't true though. It's acknowledged right after the fight the only problem is the Star Beam negating his invul, they double down on this as the problem, and they speak of the Star Beam getting negated in phase 2 using wording that all but confirms that Mario DID use Star Beam in phase 1.

& as mentioned, his base Ultra Hammer attacks can harm Star Rod-amped Hallway Bowser.

"Super high leveled attacks with the right loudout can deal chip damage".
Lad, this is like arguing a broom in TOTK can chip damage Ganon despite the whole MS only thing that can hurt him yap.

 

[Eden_Warlock99]

I don't see how Mario and co being able to damage the Star Rod Amped Bowser isn't intended, when that phase was deliberately programmed to be damageable, and the next phase is actually completely invincible.
Why didn't they just make both phases completely invincible?

Also the amp not completely scaling the Star Rod thing doesn't really work, since Bowser uses the Star Rod itself for some of his attacks (The buff nullification wave and the lighting bolt).

 

[Nierre]

Mind you the actual intended way to beat him is to use the Star Spirits to neg his invul buff.

bro linked an 11 and a half hour video without giving us a timeframe

 

[Chariot190]

I don't see how Mario and co being able to beat the Star Rod Amped Bowser isn't intended, when that phase was deliberately programmed to be damageable, especially when the next phase is actually completely invincible.
Why didn't they just make both phases completely invincible?

Idk why does Nintendo let you beat most bosses in non-canonical ways? Probably because it's fun and gives you the false assumption you're cool and smart for doing it a different way.

Doesn't change the fact they literally acknowledge in the following dialouge that Mario had used it on him to win, and Kammy noctuples down on the only threat being the Star Spirit's Star Beam, which would make no sense if Mario just beat the shit of him without even whipping them out so basic context clues and deliberate wording on the fact it happened, kinda shoots down the whole "well he might notve" shit, he did, there's not debate to be had here.

 

[Chariot190]

bro linked an 11 and a half hour video without giving us a timeframe

I though I time stamped it

 

[Mephistus]

Second, even stating that the High 6-A amp applies to Bowser at all is questionable. Like yes, it is capable of causing that much environmental destruction, that doesn't necessarily mean it can 1-to-1 amp someone like that. King Goomba who you fight like ten minutes into the game was also amped by the Star Rod and Mario (who got stomped by SR Bowser just before) has no problem beating him, and the same counts for various other bosses throughout the game. Mario isn't exactly a series with a hard power system, it's been taken at face value that the Star Rod can amp Bowser to such levels but I don't really think that's a guarantee.

Hallway Bowsa states they are witnessing him using "the power of the fully operational star rod" there in the hallway when he does his invincibility move....not at the power platform for the holding back shit. I don't think goomba king received that level amp, rather than bowser with that wish. I don't think this argument makes any real difference if the star spirits are again being treated as surpassed, with them having the ability to cancel the rod's peak if he's just unable to access the rods full power for whatever reason. Most of the other stuff is opinionated or i really dont care to reply to so, I'm just going to leave that to votes, or someone else to deal with,.

did anyone get the freezing sun feat quote in japanese to see if it was dffrent?!
ig also put me down on neutral for the plug stuff if that size isnt to scale

 

[Imaginym]

Koops ends the fight just fine without any visible damage and says he was basically sandbagging.
The fact you need to be omega excessive and ca't hurt him 99% of the time even then... Not a good sign.

"Excessive" like using Power Jump, the first badge you get in the game from Goompa & succeeding in damaging him?
It is only 1+3 Defense, albeit, with an added resistance to Piercing effects.

Mind you the actual intended way to beat him is to use the Star Spirits to neg his invul buff.


The whole "just hit through it lmao", is NOT how you're supposed to do it, and it isn't even up for debate because in phase 2 on they say

At the end of Hallway Bowser, Bowser says "Gosh, you're not bad! How'd you get so strong? Still, you're just an annoyance. That was like a warm-up for me.".
He acknowledges Mario (& arguably, his party also.) as "not bad" or "strong", & if you're arguing Hallway Bowser should be superior because of an assumption that the Star Rod is used before he's beaten, then Bowser' statements mean Mario's party triumphed despite that Star Rod power.

The invincibility comes solely from the Star Rod, not Kammy.
Kammy made him innately stronger, he gets bigger, his base stats go up, they say and show all this, she did make him stronger sure, but the "im so strong i cant be hurt" was due to the Star Rod explicitly, not her, we know this because he literally says so himself, and when the Star Rod buff gets canceled, he's stronger than normal, but can be hurt just fine by everything, he lacks invul completely yet having Kammy's buff still.

So the boost Bowser gets plus the boost of being innately stronger puts him too high for Mario & company.
I don't think that should mean they're inferior to Hallway Bowser, especially when that same fight shows Mario & co. as able to survive Star Rod powered attacks like the Lightning, Shockwave, & any attacks boosted Bowser uses.
Heck, Mario's battle after Prologue Bowser leaves him, as Mamar puts it (Again, may be worth it to check the original language.), "gravely injured, but I think he'll recover". Mario then doesn't wake despite Goombaria's attempts. The Goomba Village Toad House's Toad even says "Oh...Mario! I'm so happy to see you awake! You haven't opened your eyes for days and days! Everyone's been worried sick!".
So, heal from distant, weakened Star Spirits aside, that bolt left Mario "gravely injured" but in a recoverable state, & then unresponsively unconscious for "days & days". (Again, original dialogue check?)

Now against Hallway Bowser & Power Pad Bowser, Mario can take attacks from the Star Rod in battle, including more lightning attacks, despite that a lightning attack from the SR was what did it to him in Prologue.

 

[Chariot190]

"Excessive" like using Power Jump, the first badge you get in the game from Goompa & succeeding in damaging him?
It is only 3 Defense, albeit, with an added resistance to Piercing effects.

With the ultra boots sure, you can deal a total of 5x less damage as you would normally.

At the end of Hallway Bowser, Bowser says "Gosh, you're not bad! How'd you get so strong? Still, you're just an annoyance. That was like a warm-up for me.".
He acknowledges Mario (& arguably, his party also.) as "not bad" or "strong", & if you're arguing Hallway Bowser should be superior because of an assumption that the Star Rod is used before he's beaten, then Bowser' statements mean Mario's party triumphed despite that Star Rod power.

Lad, you realize that he
1. Says he wasn't serious. 2. That's WITHOUT the Star Rod's power because Star Beam nullified it.

There is zero assumptions here, it was used, they reference it, it's literally the intended method you spent the entire game working toward. This is the equilavent of arguing Link might have not used the Master Sword to beat Ganondorf in OOT and instead just used well placed bombs because in theory you could, or defeating Majora with Young Link. Like yeah the game LETS you do that, but it dont' mean that's what actually happened. Shit ain't any different from beating a boss and then cutscene plays and you got your ass kicked, gameplay isn't always reflective of canon.

So the boost Bowser gets plus the boost of being innately stronger puts him too high for Mario & company.

I mean, yeah, but that ain't why he's invulnerable.

I don't think that should mean they're inferior to Hallway Bowser, especially when that same fight shows Mario & co. as able to survive Star Rod powered attacks like the Lightning, Shockwave, & any attacks boosted Bowser uses.

except in that exact same vain Koops says he wasn't going all out, and theyre narratively incapable of damaging him with it?

Like all the dialouge stated paints him as untouchable by anything but the Star Beam, even after the fight they acknowledge that as being the only threat to him.

Hell Goombario's "nearly invincible" line ain't talking about how "oh you can hurt him sometimes", not that "nearly" is taking into account Star Beam, that powers through his invincibility.
This is made doubly clear when Kammy says following that fight, that he'll now be TRULY invincible beause the Star Beam won't work.

Heck, Mario's battle after Prologue Bowser leaves him, as Mamar puts it (Again, may be worth it to check the original language.), "gravely injured, but I think he'll recover". Mario then doesn't wake despite Goombaria's attempts. The Goomba Village Toad House's Toad even says "Oh...Mario! I'm so happy to see you awake! You haven't opened your eyes for days and days! Everyone's been worried sick!".
So, heal from distant, weakened Star Spirits aside, that bolt left Mario "gravely injured" but in a recoverable state, & then unresponsively unconscious for "days & days". (Again, original dialogue check?)

Now against Hallway Bowser & Power Pad Bowser, Mario can take attacks from the Star Rod in battle, including more lightning attacks, despite that a lightning attack from the SR was what did it to him in Prologue.

So? Nobody said End-Game Mario ain't stronger than early-game Mario, he is, explicitly, Koops himself even mentions it. BUT, that has absolutely zero bearing on Mario just brute forcing through the invul.
To say he did is to ignore literally every line of text from every character, and the very premise of the game, and it isn't even up for debate because statements said after the hallway fight are written as if Mario DID use Star Beam on Koops, regardless of whether you, the player, did or not, because he pretty blatantly canonically did so.

 

[Armorchompy]

ig also put me down on neutral for the plug stuff if that size isnt to scale

For the record when it comes to the plug I would be in favor of treating it as a valid feat all things considered. It's sketchy but all things considered overall OK IMO. Consistency is another issue of course, but if this was a smaller verse I'd be fine with it being the basis of a rating.

 

[Imaginym]

With the ultra boots sure, you can deal a total of 5x less damage as you would normally.

Lad, you realize that he
1. Says he wasn't serious. 2. That's WITHOUT the Star Rod's power because Star Beam nullified it.

1. When does he say that he wasn't serious?
Pre-Hallway Bowser fight: "Gwaa ha ha ha ha!! If it isn't my old pal, Mario! I've been waiting for you... I've amazed that you managed to come this far. How lucky... for me. You've been a distraction for far too long, little man! It'll be a pleasure to squash you personally! Again! Fool! You can't beat me! I'm inviiiiincible! Gwaaaaah ha ha ha!!! All right, Mario! Let's see your so-called power!"
When Hallway Bowser gets debuffed by the Star Beam: "What the... OW! What in the world was that? Goooah? What happened to the power of that stupid Star Rod?"
When Hallway Bowser gets hit after the Star Beam debuffs him: "Graaaargh! You cheap little... coward!! This fight's just beginning!"
After Hallway Bowser's defeat: "Gosh, you're not bad! How'd you get so strong? Still, you're just an annoyance. That was like a warm-up for me.".

Bowser is entirely overconfident before the fight starts, as he always is, even going so far as to assert he's invincible before using the Star Rod!
& Hallway Bowser can buff himself with the Star Rod, & Mario & co. CAN take attacks from it & hit through it.

Bowser calls them "not bad" & "so strong".

There is zero assumptions here, it was used, they reference it, it's literally the intended method you spent the entire game working toward. This is the equilavent of arguing Link might have not used the Master Sword to beat Ganondorf in OOT and instead just used well placed bombs because in theory you could, or defeating Majora with Young Link. Like yeah the game LETS you do that, but it dont' mean that's what actually happened. Shit ain't any different from beating a boss and then cutscene plays and you got your ass kicked, gameplay isn't always reflective of canon.

It is the intended way, but it's possible for devs for to make multiple intended ways. It isn't until the Power Pad's use that Bowser using the Star Rod makes him LITERALLY invulnerable.

I mean, yeah, but that ain't why he's invulnerable.

Then tell me why.
Both Hallway & Power Pad Bowser can use the Star Rod to boost themselves.
They even both have the Star Rod's shockwave attack that hits partners. (The lightning attack only being used by PP Bowser, AFAIK.)

The only thing that changes is Bowser himself getting innately stronger via the Power Pad.

except in that exact same vain Koops says he wasn't going all out, and theyre narratively incapable of damaging him with it?

Koops? Do you mean Kooper? Or Koopa, the Japanese name of Bowser?
& when does Kooper or whoever say that?
Heck, I can't find anyone saying they're going all-out.

"Gwaaa ha ha ha ha!! Welcome to your nightmare! You should thank me, Mario. Since you've been my rival for so long, I've arranged a special arena for your defeat! Gwaa ha ha!!! Like it? You're completely trapped! How does it feel, huh?"

Like all the dialouge stated paints him as untouchable by anything but the Star Beam, even after the fight they acknowledge that as being the only threat to him.

Goombario only says about hallway Bowser (Who is before he gets the Power Pad boost.), says "He's strong enough as it is, but I'm sure he can use that Star Rod to increase his power until he's nearly invincible.".
For Power Pad boosted Bowser, the Star Beam does seem necessary, but not for Hallway Bowser.

Hell Goombario's "nearly invincible" line ain't talking about how "oh you can hurt him sometimes", not that "nearly" is taking into account Star Beam, that powers through his invincibility.
This is made doubly clear when Kammy says following that fight, that he'll now be TRULY invincible beause the Star Beam won't work.

Or it could be because there are attacks that can actually damage him?
& again, this could just mean that Mario & co. are strong enough to overcome Bowser + Star Rod boost, but not Bowser + Star Rod boost + Power Pad boost.

Heck, Goombario's dialogue for Hallway Bowser does not even MENTION the Star Beam. Him bringing it up supports the argument that it isn't necessary in THAT case, but in both Power Pad Bowser Tattles, he treats it as mandatory.

& if we're taking Kammy's word, she says "King Bowser will be so powerful that not even the power of the Star Spirits can compare!"
This would suggest this boost is putting in a lot of work, as though the boost is more than what the Star Rod gives him.
Bowser even says after its activated that he feels incredible & like he's "exploding with power", BEFORE using the Star Rod! It is clearly a huge boost.

So? Nobody said End-Game Mario ain't stronger than early-game Mario, he is, explicitly, Koops himself even mentions it. BUT, that has absolutely zero bearing on Mario just brute forcing through the invul.

Again, Koops?
& my point was that Mario gets stronger. Lightning from the Star Rod left him in a grave but recoverable (Even without Star Spirit healing, according to Mamar.) state.
But by the time of Hallway Bowser, Mario & co. can take Star Rod powered attacks & keep fighting. He's clearly gotten stronger enough that he can overcome that.

To say he did is to ignore literally every line of text from every character, and the very premise of the game, and it isn't even up for debate because statements said after the hallway fight are written as if Mario DID use Star Beam on Koops, regardless of whether you, the player, did or not, because he pretty blatantly canonically did so.

The dialogue treats Star Rod boosted Power Pad Bowser as though he's Invulnerable, not Star Rod boosted Hallway Bowser as though he's Invulnerable.

Not to mention, Bowser's character betrays something I think.

He's always overconfident before his fights, & when he gets debuffed, he acts surprised, says the fight is just beginning, & then when he loses that fight, calls them "not bad", "strong", & says this was just a "warm-up".

& then proceeds to flee to get his boost.

If it really was just a warm-up for him, he would be able to get serious & beat Mario & company with only moderate effort, despite their strength he espoused.
But instead his actions show he needs more power, even despite him using the Star Rod, & his overconfidence clearly having faltered.

 

[Chariot190]

1. When does he say that he wasn't serious?
Pre-Hallway Bowser fight: "Gwaa ha ha ha ha!! If it isn't my old pal, Mario! I've been waiting for you... I've amazed that you managed to come this far. How lucky... for me. You've been a distraction for far too long, little man! It'll be a pleasure to squash you personally! Again! Fool! You can't beat me! I'm inviiiiincible! Gwaaaaah ha ha ha!!! All right, Mario! Let's see your so-called power!"

What do you think it being a warm up means? There's no world where you say that when you're balls to the wall.
And he was more or less fine after the fight too mind you.

When Hallway Bowser gets debuffed by the Star Beam: "What the... OW! What in the world was that? Goooah? What happened to the power of that stupid Star Rod?"

Sucks then how you're arguing that didn't happen and Mario just punched through it.

When Hallway Bowser gets hit after the Star Beam debuffs him: "Graaaargh! You cheap little... coward!! This fight's just beginning!"
After Hallway Bowser's defeat: "Gosh, you're not bad! How'd you get so strong? Still, you're just an annoyance. That was like a warm-up for me.".

Yeah, except, again, sucks you're arguing that didn't happen.

Also, if he was debuffed, which you're acknowledging in your argument here, then how does that mean Mario hit through the invul? He didn't, he used the macguffin beam. It doesn't matter if he "isn't bad" anymore, if he was hitting normal Koops, not Invul Koops.

The arguments are beginning to become contradictory.

Bowser is entirely overconfident before the fight starts, as he always is, even going so far as to assert he's invincible before using the Star Rod!
& Hallway Bowser can buff himself with the Star Rod, & Mario & co. CAN take attacks from it & hit through it.

Now you're contradicting yourself.

You JUST finished acknowledging they debuffed his ass, but now you're back to just brute forcing past it.

Bowser calls them "not bad" & "so strong".

Yeah, why wouldn't he? That doesn't change the fact the INVINCIBILITY is framed as making him INVINCIBLE.
Of course Mario is strong, that isn't the argument here though. Ignoring how he follows that up with Mario being a nuisance, not a legit threat still but eh.

It is the intended way, but it's possible for devs for to make multiple intended ways. It isn't until the Power Pad's use that Bowser using the Star Rod makes him LITERALLY invulnerable.

Except, wrong, they acknowledge the fact he DID do it, whether or not you, the player, did so.

Mario used Star Beam, no shit he used Star Beam that's the point of the game. He didn't secretly not use it, so all this "well he doesn't HAVE to" is just a waste of time, you know how it happened, the game says it happened, so he did. Non-canonical alt ways that in and of themselves is framed as just that, non-canonical based on following dialogue, doesn't mean much. Like, I know you **** with Zelda so using that as an example, you can beat Majora with Young Link, but that doesn't change the fact the actual canon way is Fierce Deity.

Then tell me why.

I literally did, twice. The Star Rod? The thing they literally say is why?

Both Hallway & Power Pad Bowser can use the Star Rod to boost themselves.

Yep and both become invincible.

They even both have the Star Rod's shockwave attack that hits partners. (The lightning attack only being used by PP Bowser, AFAIK.)

I'm not arguing tanking attacks, I'm arguing the invincibility shit.

The only thing that changes is Bowser himself getting innately stronger via the Power Pad.

Yep.

Koops? Do you mean Kooper? Or Koopa, the Japanese name of Bowser?
& when does Kooper or whoever say that?
Heck, I can't find anyone saying they're going all-out.

Bowser obviously, and he says "full-power of the star rod".

"Gwaaa ha ha ha ha!! Welcome to your nightmare! You should thank me, Mario. Since you've been my rival for so long, I've arranged a special arena for your defeat! Gwaa ha ha!!! Like it? You're completely trapped! How does it feel, huh?"

Yep, and?

Goombario only says about hallway Bowser (Who is before he gets the Power Pad boost.), says "He's strong enough as it is, but I'm sure he can use that Star Rod to increase his power until he's nearly invincible.".

Yes, that NEARLY part of the statement is in DIRECT REFERENCE to the STAR BEAM not Mario grinding out to level 99 or hitting through it and dealing 5x less damage anyway.

We know this because in the following scene they explain that the thing he's vulnerable to is the Star Beam, but now, that won't be the case so he's 100% invincible.

Do you you really not get this dude? Mario isn't a factor here, they make it clear that Star Beam is the thing that makes him "nearly", and when that isn't an option, he's now completely invincible. This is what the dialogue says.

For Power Pad boosted Bowser, the Star Beam does seem necessary, but not for Hallway Bowser.

For power pad bows the star beam DOESN'T WORK anymore, it's why he's now framed as completely invincible, they literally say this. It was necessary for Hallway, now it just dosn't work and they're like oh shit what do we do?

Or it could be because there are attacks that can actually damage him?

Except no? Kammy LITERALLY explains why? And multiple partners exclaim helplessness once the star beam doesn't work? Like dude, the game is all but shoving down your throat what's happening.

& again, this could just mean that Mario & co. are strong enough to overcome Bowser + Star Rod boost, but not Bowser + Star Rod boost + Power Pad boost.

"Could" this "should" that, I don't want opinionated conjecture.
That ISN'T what the game says.

Kammy explicitly makes it clear
"Did you think we were foolish
enough to just sit back and
watch as you saved the Star
Spirits?

I've put together a little
surprise for you...a device that
increases Bowser's power!

King Bowser will be so powerful
that not even the power of the
Star Spirits can compare!
He'll now truly be invincible..."

The game frames the issues as the Star Spirits, because yeah no shit that's the plot of the game.
Kammy is explaining how they Mario was collecting the Star Spirits, how the Star Beam is an issue, but now it won't compare and he's TRULY invicible now.

This entire line of text doesn't make sense if Mario himself could just beat the **** out of him without having used Star Beam, but we KNOW he did, come phase 2, when you're scripted to use Star Beam. Bows himself says
"That weak attack doesn't affect me anymore!".

The addition of anymore directly implicates it was on him before, the only time that was possible, was like, 20 seconds ago in the Hallway fight.

But that's not at all,

Oh, we're hurting, Mario!
The Star Beam doesn't work!

Oh no, Mario!
The Star Beam isn't working!

What's the matter?
Why won't the Star Beam work?

Uh-oh, this is a problem!
The Star Beam's ineffective!

Well, don't just stand there
staring at the sky, Mario!
The Star Beam doesn't work!
Think of something!

Oh no!! We're in trouble!
The Star Beam doesn't work?
Oh, that bad monster is gonna
beat us up now for sure...

Oh, this is no good!
The Star Beam doesn't work!
What'll we do, Mario!?

Oh man, just what we need!!
The Star Beam's broken!
What're we gonna do, man?

In phase 2, when you use the Star Beam, and it doesn't work, every single partner instantly goes oh shit, with some of them straightup going "ok well wtf do we do now?".
Why would they act like that if Mario could just hit through it? They frame this as "oh no the star beam doesn't work, there's nothing else we can do!", and then the fight just ends there and goes into the cutscene to get Peach Beam.

You're legitimately arguing the "nearly" part of Goombario's line covers the fact Mario is just super strong and can punch him in the dick, when everying immediately following it makes it obvious they just meant Star Beam.

Also just wanna say, power pad only boosts his def to 2, literally less than the hall way Star Rod in-game buff. If we're legit arguing gameplay def stats and stuff and blatantly non-canonical methods, Bows should only have 5-6 defense given you lads legit argued the Star rod buff is only +3 defense, and thus any attack that deals 6-7 damage should get through still, yet it don't, that isn't how the game frames it, is it?

Heck, Goombario's dialogue for Hallway Bowser does not even MENTION the Star Beam. Him bringing it up supports the argument that it isn't necessary in THAT case, but in both Power Pad Bowser Tattles, he treats it as mandatory.

Because it's so obvious that the fact you're even arguing this is legitimate baffling to me?
Like dude, that fight is IMMEDIATELY followed by them talking as if he used Star Beam, and the only way past the invul is Star Beam, and Kammy talks about the Star Beam as the fucky that made him not invincible but now that it don't work he will be. Why does Goombario need to specify the plot of the game?

& if we're taking Kammy's word, she says "King Bowser will be so powerful that not even the power of the Star Spirits can compare!"
This would suggest this boost is putting in a lot of work, as though the boost is more than what the Star Rod gives him.

You're outright missing the forest for a lone singular tree, there's no "suggesting" here.
The boost isn't even basic attacks can hurt him just fine, why cling to gameplay yet ignore it suddenly?

Also, wrong, you yourself brought up defense stats, Power Pad Koops has 2 Def, Hallway Bows has 1, yet Hallway Star Rod has 4. The boost very blatantly isn't above what the Star Rod gives him.

Bowser even says after its activated that he feels incredible & like he's "exploding with power", BEFORE using the Star Rod! It is clearly a huge boost.

Yeah, it is, and?
It's a many times boost even, that don't matter to the argument of the invul though.
It's still a boost that Mario and friends can still take on just fine. The instant he uses the Star Rod he's invincible.

Again, Koops?
& my point was that Mario gets stronger. Lightning from the Star Rod left him in a grave but recoverable (Even without Star Spirit healing, according to Mamar.) state.
But by the time of Hallway Bowser, Mario & co. can take Star Rod powered attacks & keep fighting. He's clearly gotten stronger enough that he can overcome that.

King Koopa.
I don't care, I'm not arguing that, I never even mentioned that shit, why are you even bringing it up? I'm arguing Mario canonically can't hit through the invul and uses Star Beam.

The dialogue treats Star Rod boosted Power Pad Bowser as though he's Invulnerable, not Star Rod boosted Hallway Bowser as though he's Invulnerable.

No it does, both ways really.
"I'm invincible with this Star Rod,
didn't you know?
Mario's no match for me!

He's history. Get over it."

"It doesn't matter, because
while you hold the Star Rod
you are definitely invincible."

The game spends its whole run time doubling down on the Star Rod granting invulnerability.
Mario must go around collecting Star Spirits to overcome that.
When Mario fights him again, they attack him, deal damage, and Koops goes "aight star rod time", getting the buff.
The game expects you use the move you spent the WHOLE PLOT getting, Star Beam, on him.
Doing so negates the invul, and you fight him normally. all while cutscenes and text plays for doing so.
Goombario calls him nearly invincible, but assuming he means you can just kick his ass normally and not the pretty blatant in response to the fact you just spent a whole game with him collecting shit to overcome that invul which negs it, is beyond generous conjecture.
Phase 2 preceeds with Kammy explaining how they knew Mario was getting Star Spirits, but now, even they won't work, and thus he will be truly invincible (as opposed to "nearly").
She's right, Star Beam doesn't work and everyone instantly goes well **** and a few even voice how they don't know what to do now, something that wouldn't happen if Mario secretly just punches through that buff.
It's also framed pretty explicitly as if Mario used it on Koop before, regardless of what you the player did, making the narrative intent evident.

I legit don't get this, this is a blatant case.

Not to mention, Bowser's character betrays something I think.

I think, isn't an argument. And it isn't just him, it's him, Kammy, Peach, the Star Spirits, like half the partners....

He's always overconfident before his fights, & when he gets debuffed, he acts surprised, says the fight is just beginning, & then when he loses that fight, calls them "not bad", "strong", & says this was just a "warm-up".

Yeah? Because he was debuffed?
If he got DEBUFFED, and then says that, which is what's supposed to happen. Him saying "wow you're strong" doesn't act as evidence for hitting through the buff that canonically wasn't there anymore?

& then proceeds to flee to get his boost.

Yeah and?

If it really was just a warm-up for him, he would be able to get serious & beat Mario & company with only moderate effort, despite their strength he espoused.

He was legitimately fine after the fight? And you keep forgetting they DEBUFFED him, they have a magic star attack that invalidates the Star Rod.

No shit he'd lose if he stayed and kept fighting forever. But you're acting like that means anything for the argument, it doesn't, as they nullify his buffs?

But instead his actions show he needs more power, even despite him using the Star Rod, & his overconfidence clearly having faltered.

Yeah because they have the STAR BEAM.

Half of what you said is contradictory. You act as if Mario never used the Star Beam and just beats the shit out of him, and even when you acknowledge he has Star Beam, like here "& when he gets debuffed, he acts surprised, says the fight is just beginning, & then when he loses that fight, calls them "not bad", "strong", & says this was just a "warm-up". But ignore that if he got debuffed, it doesn't matter if Mario and co can hurt him now, because the invul isn't there.

Like I'm not sure what you want me to say here. You're ignoring the whole plot of the game, and everything everyone says in that scene and following it in regards to the invinibility, Star Spirits and negation, all for a "well MAYBE this might have happened?", which doesn't even work because linguistics confirm they used it.

 

[Imaginym]

I appreciate your willingness to debate me so throughly, truly, & I do apologize if I'm bothering you, Chariot, though I'd like to postpone my resuming of this discussion until a later date.
Truly, I'm a little surprised by how adamantly you advocate for your arguments.... Although, I do believe it is right to argue for accuracy, & we seem to have different understandings, so I shouldn't fault you for our differences.

I have neglected to sleep & fear I would not have the focus to fully engage your side properly if I did not.

I feel I should say something. though: I'm not arguing that Power Pad + Star Rod Bowser isn't invincible. Or at least, I agree that he is "invincible" as in insurmountable to Mario & company.

But, just covering my bases:
1. At the start of PP Bowser's battle, he hasn't used the Star Rod. If Mario & co. can harm him then, yet this pad is supposed to make him powerful enough that the Star Spirits can't match him (& if we're to go by stats & Tattle & size, he is stronger.) then it clearly offers a boost that gets Bowser above what the Star Spirits can do.

2. Mario's power is not the Star Spirits' Power. They're always summons, & I would say that while Mario gets stronger as he rescues the Star Spirits because they give some power to him, the Star Beam doesn't make him stronger, it's just an exceptionally powerful move. (Or a potent hax.)
But the power of the Star Spirits through the Star Beam being separates means the Power Pad doesn't have to beat Mario + Star Spirits, it only has to beat Star Spirits, & if Star Spirits = Star Rod, which you're arguing Mario is inferior to, then the Power Pad, which surpasses the Star Beam/Star Spirits.. then Bowser with the Power Pad ALONE should be stronger than the Star Spirits.
Yet Mario & co. can hurt him, indicating they scale. & they can take the Star Rod's hits, both before & after the Power Pad.

3. I argue that Mario is able to beat or even damage Hallway Bowser without the Star Beam is relevant. It's the Power Pad that pushes them past what they can damage through at the upper limit. Hallway Bowser does not seem truly invincible, despite Bowser's boasts.

4. If their Durability is high enough to take Star Rod hits, then there's the argument they scale because they can harm comparable foes, & don't hurt themselves attacking.
& if their AP doesn't scale to the Durability, then it could just be they're akin to stone walls. 5x gap is not THAT unreasonable.

I can understand why you might oppose scaling to Power Pad + Star Rod Bowser, but why not Hallway Bowser?

5. When that supposed invulnerability isn't full fledged until Bowser is powered up a second time, I'd question all the claims aren't just hyperbole/Bowser's overconfidence.
Beating him without the Star Beam, while theoretically possible is not PRACTICAL. As in, that'd he lose the majority of the time.
Or heck, it can be possible to have a guaranteed, or practically guaranteed win rate against someone, despite that they can harm you.

6. I think it's a little disingenuous to say Mario CAN'T brute force to even SLIGHTLY damage Star Rod Hallway Bowser, when Mario has been powering up every chapter, by necessity, thanks to getting portions of the power of the Star Spirits & levels, & upgrading his Hammer & all that.

7. The Star Beam is definitely a necessity. Against Power Pad + Star Rod Boosted Bowser, because he's stronger than the strongest thing Mario has access to, PLUS a power equal to that strongest thing. One-shot ratios are different 'verse by 'verse, presumably the same applies to what is necessary to no-sell. I do not argue that THAT can be brute forced through.

8. Again, Goombario's dialogue for Hallway Bowser calls him "nearly invincible" & makes no mention of the Star Beam. I apologize for repeating, but I feel I should re-establish this point, given how it may factor in combination with the other points.

Once again, I'm sorry if I'm bothering you with this arguably arduous argument.
I wish you well, & hope for your happiness & health.