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Vinsmoke Sanji VS Charlotte Katakuri (15-6-0)

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MonkeyOfLife said:
Stop. Being. Annoying. He is talking about sanji as well.
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Okay, you need to read and stop trying to make your illiteracy into some kind of head-canon. That's what is "annoying", especially when you're trying to shut others up instead of admitting you are wrong. That's immature and unacceptable in any debate.

If that's too much for you, step down, else I recommend we get some moderation in here. This reaction is ridiculous.

Let's go through this step-by-step:

Katakuri sees Pudding fall to the ground and questions why that is happening:
  • He would not have been able to hear what Sanji said to Pudding from that distance anyways. No one did.

Sanji dodges Katakuri's attack, surprising Katakuri:
  • We've also already established Kenbun Future-sight is linear and multiple possibilities can not be seen. Sanji's got superior sensory abilities anyways, so he definitely sensed the bloodlust around him (Katakuri knowing the priest would fail because Sanji would dodge, and then Sanji dodging Katakuri's attack as well). Even if Sanji used FS to see the attack coming, he had a lot more lee-way given the distance the bean had to travel.
Big Mom asking about Pudding, and Katakuri telling her to forget about that:
  • He's telling her to forget about the Pudding stuff because something else is happening. "The situation is unpredictable". He's saying the enemy have done something unthinkable. He then goes on to say "There's no way to stop it", and then we see the cake destroyed from the inside.
Katakuri can only see a few seconds into the future. He can not predict the enemy plan that was constructed literal hours before the wedding.
 
XDragnoir said:
Katakuri didn't develop anything in his fight with Luffy not even while under pressure from G4 or R2 when both were hitting each other, i also want to know what would Kata even upgrade in his haki to begin with, i am only saying Sanji may increase his FS and learn to use hardening from fighting Kata (similar to Luffy only learning Hao coating after seeing it and being hit by it), and i am only saying Sanji may get Hardening not Edged Haki, i am not even saying he may upgrade DJ as it was hinted vs Judge.

So Luffy was able to keep up with Kata while having inferior Future Sight? That's what you are saying? Because Sanji has FS from the get go and can further increase it during their fight, if Luffy who just awakened FS and never got to Kata's level was able to keep up why Sanji wouldn't?

Okay? I guess we agree here, but stats and FS to keep up would save Sanji from an attack from all angles.

I think when you say "effectiveness" you mean the "power null" buso has against "body type" paramecias, right? Why would it be any less effective here? Iirc we accept all levels of buso to be able to null body types.

You say all that as if Sanji was dozens of times weaker than Round 1 Luffy, who was able to keep up and transform even while having inferior speed, ap, dura and kenbu than Kata or even Sanji for most of those, will it be easy to wear the RS? Hell no, is it impossible? No as well, Luffy transformed in the very middle of an attack from many different angles, Sanji's best strategy to wear the RS will be using his flight and running away if it really comes to it (and it's now that you guys remember Kata's travel speed isn't good and his range isn't infinite).

First, Sanji isn't orders of magnitude slower than Katakuri even if he is indeed slower, i mean it's a rel+ attack, the distance between them means nothing to an attack that fast, second, P1 was having a hard time reacting to Sanji's attacks that used the speed boosters even tho he could keep up with Sanji otherwise, i have no problem with sanji < kata, but RS < Kata makes no sense. Other than that Kata will have to waste a lot of haki to block RS's attacks or take damage because the pseudo-logia trick isn't going to work forever, it didn't against someone with inferior Kenbu (when compared to Kata's) as we see when Luffy started to use his FS with SM, at that point Kata himself choose for his Buso instead of the pseudo-logia. And as i said before the RS is a higher buff for Dura than Kata's haki and it needs no energy or concentretation to use at all.
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Where have I said that Sanji is an order of magnitude lower than Katakuri?

I've merely pointed out his speed is inferior, as it seems many people are trying to say Sanji outspeeds (and outdamage) Katakuri due to RS amps.
 
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Eminiteable said:
Like Tempest posted before, Sanji's future sight seems to be better than Katakuri's:
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Sanji has never been stated on in the manga to be capable of future on sight on Katakuri's or Luffy's level.

He reacted to a jelly bean being aimed at his head. That's nothing special. It doesn't even 100% require vision of the future since dodging projectiles is a thing Luffy could do before he gained future sight.
 
Eminiteable said:
Like Tempest posted before, Sanji's future sight seems to be better than Katakuri's:
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The databooks and manga do not support this what-so-ever. And in that same link you posted, I've already debunked the opinionated reasoning for people wanting to suggest Sanji > Kata in FS (And no one actually tried to argue against it... fancy that). There's absolutely nothing there to imply Sanji's FS is comparable to Katakuri's, let alone equal.

Dodging one attack from tens of meters away is a very weak justification. Sanji isn't out here outmaneuvering and landing consecutive blows on people like Daifuku's genie, which we can all agree is inferior to Katakuri in Kenbunshoku or speed in general. All he did was surprise a FS user by dodging their attack narrowly.

Luffy dodges many blows from Katakuri at close-range, yet no one here is going to argue his FS was anywhere near Katakuri's at the time.
 
CinCameron20 said:
Okay, you need to read and stop trying to make your illiteracy into some kind of head-canon. That's what is "annoying", especially when you're trying to shut others up instead of admitting you are wrong. That's immature and unacceptable in any debate.
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How am I trying to shut others up when this is literally what you said...
Also it's not me that need to admit who is wrong... It's damage. If I'm wrong I'm wrong... But katakuri DEFINITELY was talking about sanji as well. And how is it head canon?
CinCameron20 said:
No, sheesh, are you trolling right now? Really? He's referring to Luffy coming out of the cake.
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CinCameron20 said:
If that's too much for you, step down, else I recommend we get some moderation in here. This reaction is ridiculous.
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Stop.
CinCameron20 said:
We've also already established Kenbun Future-sight is linear and multiple possibilities can not be seen. Sanji's got superior sensory abilities anyways, so he definitely sensed the bloodlust around him (Katakuri knowing the priest would fail because Sanji would dodge, and then Sanji dodging Katakuri's attack as well). Even if Sanji used FS to see the attack coming, he had a lot more lee-way given the distance the bean had to travel.
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Saying sanji got better sensory abilities but weaker future sight is head Canon 🤷‍♂️... Anyway... Isn't there a statement on sanji winning the observation haki battle and using future sight?
CinCameron20 said:
Big Mom asking about Pudding, and Katakuri telling her to forget about that:
  • He's telling her to forget about the Pudding stuff because something else is happening. "The situation is unpredictable". He's saying the enemy have done something unthinkable. He then goes on to say "There's no way to stop it", and then we see the cake destroyed from the inside.
Click to expand...
He is also referring to Sanji...
CinCameron20 said:
Katakuri can only see a few seconds into the future. He can not predict the enemy plan that was constructed literal hours before the wedding.
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Him saying the situation is unpredictable has nothing to do with how much they planned.
 
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CinCameron20 said:
Where have I said that Sanji is an order of magnitude lower than Katakuri?

I've merely pointed out his speed is inferior, as it seems many people are trying to said Sanji outspeeds (and outdamage) Katakuri due to RS amps.
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Speed isn't a wincon for anyone unless it's by a huge margin, orders of magnitude was an hyperbole by my part but you have been implying Kata's speed are a huge advantage to his side when no one here does reliably take the edge in this stat.

Iirc in my very first post i said speed isn't a deciding factor here no matter who is faster and most people seem to be FRA.

Damage3245 said:
Sanji has never been stated on in the manga to be capable of future on sight on Katakuri's or Luffy's level.

He reacted to a jelly bean being aimed at his head. That's nothing special. It doesn't even 100% require vision of the future since dodging projectiles is a thing Luffy could do before he gained future sight.
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"Luffy's level" as if Luffy was a master of it, he isn't at WCI and probably isn't even right now, the best you can say is that Luffy used it more times but both him and Sanji are at the level of "started to use it".

Luffy actually was hit many times when Kata used FS at the start of their fight iirc, Kata was using FS here and Sanji still evaded.
 
Y’all really said Sanji doesn’t have better future sight because “I said so”.

The manga not emphasizing on it is not a good argument. We're gonna ignore the dozens of characters who is stated in the vivre cards to have Kenbunshoku because we don't see it in the manga?
We gonna ignore the SBS that says Gura Gura is > Bellamy's fruit and all other paramecias because we don't get a statement in the manga?


The arguments were incredulous as hell against Sanji. Sanji is the Kenbun specialist on the SHs. Oda flat out said that he uses the vivre cards to inform the readers of what he can't show in the manga because of time constraints and such.
Oda made a scene in where Kata and Sanji had a Kenbun battle and Sanji won it, but we're finding excuses of otherwise?


Also did we forget Sanji can fly? Why are we acting like he's Luffy?

Also the example of the Raid Suit and Kata beating Ichiji is just bad. Sanji was relative to them without a raid suit, now he has a raid suit.

Sanji can fight his Kenbunshoku, he can fly (which Kata cannot do), he has several speed amps, etc.




Also Monkey.

How in the hell was he talking about Sanji?
 
MonkeyOfLife said:
Because of the databook thing and makes no sense he is talking about anything else being unpredictable 🤷‍♂️
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Only thing unpredictable about Sanji was him not getting dimed in the head by a jelly bean.

Luffy busted out of a cake, Brook broke the picture, etc.
Saying it's only cause of Sanji is just wrong
 
Also why do people become mean and act weird and stuff? Humans.
tenor.gif
 
XDragnoir said:
wouldn't two 7s start it under the "equally constructive posts for both sides"?
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Besides the fact that other than the incredulity, the posts aren't really "constructive" and half the people voted because of "Kata kenbun gg" even though the fact that nothing points towards Katakuri having better anything is hilarious.
MonkeyOfLife said:
Because big mom literally asked what happened to pudding situation and he said forget that, this situation is unpredictable... He mostly talked about sanji... But also the cake as well.
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He talked about the entire scenario with Pudding having an emotional breakdown, the priest getting hit, etc.

It's not just because of Sanji's Kenbun. He didn't even say it was because of that. Does that take a part in it? Yes. Otherwise, no. Kenbun doesn't interfere with other people's visions.
MonkeyOfLife said:
Wait... Isn't sanji observation haki in wano> wano luffy who is = katakuri 🤔
Click to expand...
This is Onigashima raid Sanji, not the one before.
 
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