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yes it can get stronger in battle but it does indeed wear down after a long battle link
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Vinsmoke Sanji VS Charlotte Katakuri (15-6-0)
- Thread starter Eminiteable
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WrongIdea21
He/Him- 4,088
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Yeah, It's clear that Katakuri looks to the future, where Sanji has never done anything like that other than his fairly wide range of kenbunshoku, this is more useful in close combat.
Mochi Awakening can paralyze Sanji's footing on the ground, even Luffy's g4 has trouble releasing Katakuri's mochi sticky effect.
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"Sanji's cookin', Chopper's doctoring [Katakuri]" FRA
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I'm merely saying it's a possibility that can't be ignored. Katakuri isn't gonna snatch it on a whim, but if Sanji is being pressured, and has doubts about using the Raid Suit, Katakuri CAN capitalize on that. Sanji wont see the same future as Katakuri as he'll always be behind him.
And even with the suit, I still say Katakuri has the advantage based on Awakening literally giving him the entire arena as a weapon and defense.
Katakuri's also got resistance to fire manipulation, so I'd say Sanji would practically require Raid Suit to get the W. If he lost access to it, it's a guaranteed L imho.
Katakuri has better future-sight, but worse sensory powers. Katakuri has the edge in taking the initiative, but he's lacking in sensing his opponent's intentions and what they are doing when his FS can't actually "see" what's going on.
That being said, he can still use sensory abilities, just that he requires more focus than Sanji would.
Since no PIS is involved, it's unlikely that Katakuri will ever snap and stop using his Kenbunshoku.
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Awakening and Speed: Yeah Kata may have the edge in the area control and speed but those two things alone don't give anyone the win, much less when the gap isn't big enough to blitz.
Broken DF: Most of the things Kata gets from his DF are naturally or eventually countered, the size increase by higher AP and Dura and the pseudo-logia trick by Sanji own FS but i will add more to this below.
Busoshoku: Kata has better buso than BM and was still overpowered, in Luffy's own words even against Kata's super armament G4/BM wouldn't lose (ch. 884), Tempest posted a scaling chain for them but i will expand it a bit here:
- G3 < Giant Mochi W/ Buso =/< Edged Mochi </= Sanji < DJ </= Peerless Donuts = Raid Suit
You guys are also forgetting that mid-fight power ups are an actual thing haki users can do and this battle is the perfect place to Sanji upgrade his Buso if he isn't able to use the RS at the start or even upgrade his Kenbu to keep up with his speed, he may even upgrade both.
Btw, Emini, you are the OP so can Sanji use DJ+RS here or not? We don't have official info so a rule would solve the problem.
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We can NOT assume this. The canon material has to support the notion that Sanji can use DJ+RS. We can't make that into a rule and literally GIVE him that ability.
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I'm not so sure that the Raid Suit would make a huge amount of difference. Didn't Katakuri very quickly low-diff Ichiji off-screen while he was wearing his Raid Suit?
Katakuri's superior Observation Haki, ability to shift out of the way of Sanji's attacks, and superior speed lead me to supporting him in this battle between the two of them.
So base Sanji is superior to Luffy with Haki? Even though Luffy with no Haki was tanking attacks from Diable Jambe Sanji and Luffy with Haki was being hurt by Katakuri's Edged Mochi.
Katakuri's superior Observation Haki, ability to shift out of the way of Sanji's attacks, and superior speed lead me to supporting him in this battle between the two of them.
So base Sanji is superior to Luffy with Haki? Even though Luffy with no Haki was tanking attacks from Diable Jambe Sanji and Luffy with Haki was being hurt by Katakuri's Edged Mochi.
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@XDragnoir - Fair to assume Sanji's Haki will get stronger, but are you forgetting the same applies to Katakuri as well? Besides, I don't see how Sanji is going to go from Non-Hardening tier Haki to suddenly matching Katakuri's application--which is also enhanced by Paramecia abilities to make it even denser.
Luffy was already quite skilled with his Kenbunshoku before even fighting Katakuri. He just enhanced it further, but never actually became Katakuri's equal in this field, even at the start of Wano.
Only SOME of Katakuri's attacks make his body bigger. The only case he actually did this for an AP boost was when he mimicked Luffy's Elephant Gun (with fist and foot). Something he would not do here against Sanji because that's not part of his typical move-set. What he would do instead is grow more limbs to attack Sanji from all angles.
We also gotta consider Sanji's Buso isn't particularly strong, so its effectiveness against Katakuri needs to be brought under question. Even Luffy got trapped by Katakuri's limbs and couldn't break free without some assistance the first couple times it happened.
Sanji's foil here is the fact he requires Raid Suit to reliably hurt Katakuri through his Haki defense (something that can be physically taken away before he can even equip it... perhaps even mid-transformation), the fact that Katakuri using his Awakening in general renders Sanji incapable of dealing damage unless he can land attacks directly on Katakuri's body--which will be even harder due to the amount of obstacles in his path (and inferior speed/FS), and now we have to consider whether Sanji's Haki is even strong enough to guarantee each of his successful kicks will actually harm Katakuri's real body. Not only this, but Katakuri has a lot more versatility granted by his fruit which Sanji lacks.
Katakuri still wins this without extreme effort on his part. Despite Gear 4th Luffy being faster and stronger than him, Katakuri very quickly found a way to turn the tables and was gradually wearing him down. Sanji's stats indicate his AP is somewhat close to BM Luffy's, but his speed is INFERIOR via scaling. If Katakuri can avoid BM Luffy's attacks for dozens of minutes, so too can he avoid Sanji's attacks (which will have effectively less range than Luffy's btw), not to mention Sanji is still slower than Katakuri w/ speed amps.
Luffy was already quite skilled with his Kenbunshoku before even fighting Katakuri. He just enhanced it further, but never actually became Katakuri's equal in this field, even at the start of Wano.
Only SOME of Katakuri's attacks make his body bigger. The only case he actually did this for an AP boost was when he mimicked Luffy's Elephant Gun (with fist and foot). Something he would not do here against Sanji because that's not part of his typical move-set. What he would do instead is grow more limbs to attack Sanji from all angles.
We also gotta consider Sanji's Buso isn't particularly strong, so its effectiveness against Katakuri needs to be brought under question. Even Luffy got trapped by Katakuri's limbs and couldn't break free without some assistance the first couple times it happened.
Sanji's foil here is the fact he requires Raid Suit to reliably hurt Katakuri through his Haki defense (something that can be physically taken away before he can even equip it... perhaps even mid-transformation), the fact that Katakuri using his Awakening in general renders Sanji incapable of dealing damage unless he can land attacks directly on Katakuri's body--which will be even harder due to the amount of obstacles in his path (and inferior speed/FS), and now we have to consider whether Sanji's Haki is even strong enough to guarantee each of his successful kicks will actually harm Katakuri's real body. Not only this, but Katakuri has a lot more versatility granted by his fruit which Sanji lacks.
Katakuri still wins this without extreme effort on his part. Despite Gear 4th Luffy being faster and stronger than him, Katakuri very quickly found a way to turn the tables and was gradually wearing him down. Sanji's stats indicate his AP is somewhat close to BM Luffy's, but his speed is INFERIOR via scaling. If Katakuri can avoid BM Luffy's attacks for dozens of minutes, so too can he avoid Sanji's attacks (which will have effectively less range than Luffy's btw), not to mention Sanji is still slower than Katakuri w/ speed amps.
Eminiteable
He/Him- 7,389
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- Thread starter
- #52
I see no issue with it because I can't see functionally how it wouldn't be possible or any different than just using diable Jambe normally.
It's like assuming Zoro could use Armament Haki on top off Asura before he revealed it, logically it makes sense he could do it and it's only a matter of time before he did reveal it.
Eminiteable
He/Him- 7,389
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- #53
Different version of Sanji
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Sanji has not used DJ w/ his Raid Suit (yet), so we can not grant him that ability just because we think he can do it. What if it is revealed he can't use DJ because it would literally burst the boosters and levitation devices, and cause issues for him? Or he simply can't gain enough friction to generate DJ because of how the boots are made?
Obviously an assumption on my part, but it's also unjustified to make DJ available to RS Sanji at this time. I'd like to see him use it against Queen (Granted, this would be for Sanji's 3rd key, if that's the case--especially if it's revealed Franky/Usopp altered the suit in any way).
Eminiteable
He/Him- 7,389
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- Thread starter
- #55
The Raid Suit is supposed to be very resistant to fire so I don't think it will be harmed by Diable jambe.
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inb4 the resistance to fire is the reason he can't use DJ
(I'm grasping here)
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Sanji can use DJ in his suit, Oda DID this draw:
Sanji for reasons above.
Sanji for reasons above.
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I'm aware of that. It's not a canon suit, btw. That's from a cover-art.
Either way, even if Sanji can use DJ in his suit, it wont do him much good considering the fact its dura-negating properties are a little irrelevant against people who have fire resistance (and iirc, Red Hawk > Diable Jambe in that department via feats against Doflamingo)
Either way, even if Sanji can use DJ in his suit, it wont do him much good considering the fact its dura-negating properties are a little irrelevant against people who have fire resistance (and iirc, Red Hawk > Diable Jambe in that department via feats against Doflamingo)
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Ichiji =/= Sanji, Ichiji doesn't scale to 6C with his RS, nor does any of the other siblings iirc.
You were in the CRT thread, you should be aware of the new scaling and that we are using post-wci sanji here.
Also, wasn't Zolo's post a vote for Sanji?
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None here has ever said it's dura neg (i.e it's heat) would be of any help here iirc, DJ is an AP increase in case you don't remember.
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??? He trained his observation haki so much to be able to see into the future... How does he have better future sight? But worse sensory powers?
....Lacking in sensing people's intentions? What...
Doesn't need to focus more... It's just worse.... Even if he does need to focus more, it would still be to little difference.
This is like saying if kaido had a raid suit he would get weaker... It's literally kinda like a stat increase with other cool abilities.
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Also... Sanji would have the advantage in the match with his superior Observation Haki and being Invisible. His body with raid suit will increase his dura aswell.
Eminiteable
He/Him- 7,389
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- Thread starter
- #64
I couldn't really tell
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That doesn't make Sanji's Haki superior to Katakuri's.
Dodging out of the way of projectiles is a pretty basic thing for Observation Haki users. Luffy was doing it at Fishman Island.
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He says it himself that he won't be able to control it and that it's unpredictable
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He's referring to the cake smashing apart.
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If it was talking about the cake part then we would see him seeing that and then why would he say it's unpredictable to a cake being destroyed... He was clearly talking about sanji... Why would them destroying a cake be unpredictable.
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Why the hell would he be talking about Sanji?
He's talking about the situation as a whole, not just one opponent. The reason he can't do anything to stop it is because what can he actually do to stop a dozen Luffy clones exploding out from the inside of the cake?
He's talking about the situation as a whole, not just one opponent. The reason he can't do anything to stop it is because what can he actually do to stop a dozen Luffy clones exploding out from the inside of the cake?
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Because big mom literally asked what happened to pudding situation and he said forget that, this situation is unpredictable... He mostly talked about sanji... But also the cake as well.
Wait... Isn't sanji observation haki in wano> wano luffy who is = katakuri
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Yes, but it's not gonna benefit him much if he can't utilize its primary function of burning an enemy.
Katakuri is talking about how the cake is going to be destroyed from the inside when referring to an "unpredictable situation". Katakuri can't do anything about that being from the outside. Read the context.
If it was talking about the cake part then we would see him seeing that and then why would he say it's unpredictable to a cake being destroyed... He was clearly talking about sanji... Why would them destroying a cake be unpredictable.
- There's a mirror inside of the cake. Katakuri sees that the cake is going to be blown apart from the inside. He can not do anything about it for OBVIOUS REASONS
He's only noted to have future-sight. His FEATS of sensory abilities have been VERY lackluster, and we only see him actually using it during his fight with Snake-Man because he could not comprehend why he was being hit, thus needed to focus more on the attacks he could not see.??? He trained his observation haki so much to be able to see into the future... How does he have better future sight? But worse sensory powers?
Lacking in sensing people's intentions? What...
Doesn't need to focus more... It's just worse.... Even if he does need to focus more, it would still be to little difference.
Link, link and link
Sanji dodged a single projectile from tens of meters away by moving literally half a meter at most to avoid it. This is unimpressive when trying to pit the two of them together. Dodging the bean does not mean he can do the same at melee range, or if Katakuri shot several at once--which he can do if he felt like it.
DUDE... Read what you just typed.Because big mom literally asked what happened to pudding situation and he said forget that, this situation is unpredictable... He mostly talked about sanji... But also the cake as well.
Wait... Isn't sanji observation haki in wano> wano luffy who is = katakuri
Katakuri said forget about Pudding/Sanji, and that there's an unpredictable situation incoming--REFERRING TO THE CAKE BEING DESTROYED as that's the one thing he's focused on talking about in the very next panel
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Then he wouldn't say it's unpredictable...
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Big Mom: Katakuri, what happened with Pudding??
Katakuri: Forget about that, Mama. The situation is unpredictable. Even I can not do anything to prevent it! There's no way to stop it
Panel of Luffy about to burst out of the mirror with all of his dopplegangers.
Very clear-cut. He's telling Big Mom to forget about the Pudding situation because something else is about to happen.
Katakuri: Forget about that, Mama. The situation is unpredictable. Even I can not do anything to prevent it! There's no way to stop it
Panel of Luffy about to burst out of the mirror with all of his dopplegangers.
Very clear-cut. He's telling Big Mom to forget about the Pudding situation because something else is about to happen.
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Nobody predicted them launching an attack from the cake. So it's unpredictable.
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And that's the whole situation is unpredictable because of sanji.
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He's not talking about himself. He only said HE COULD NOT STOP IT... No one else could predict what was going to happen. Omg, please.
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His talking about for him it's unpredictable and can't control it...
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No, sheesh, are you trolling right now? Really? He's referring to Luffy coming out of the cake.
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Katakuri didn't develop anything in his fight with Luffy not even while under pressure from G4 or R2 when both were hitting each other, i also want to know what would Kata even upgrade in his haki to begin with, i am only saying Sanji may increase his FS and learn to use hardening from fighting Kata (similar to Luffy only learning Hao coating after seeing it and being hit by it), and i am only saying Sanji may get Hardening not Edged Haki, i am not even saying he may upgrade DJ as it was hinted vs Judge.
So Luffy was able to keep up with Kata while having inferior Future Sight? That's what you are saying? Because Sanji has FS from the get go and can further increase it during their fight, if Luffy who just awakened FS and never got to Kata's level was able to keep up why Sanji wouldn't?
Okay? I guess we agree here, but stats and FS to keep up would save Sanji from an attack from all angles.
I think when you say "effectiveness" you mean the "power null" buso has against "body type" paramecias, right? Why would it be any less effective here? Iirc we accept all levels of buso to be able to null body types.
You say all that as if Sanji was dozens of times weaker than Round 1 Luffy, who was able to keep up and transform even while having inferior speed, ap, dura and kenbu than Kata or even Sanji for most of those, will it be easy to wear the RS? Hell no, is it impossible? No as well, Luffy transformed in the very middle of an attack from many different angles, Sanji's best strategy to wear the RS will be using his flight and running away if it really comes to it (and it's now that you guys remember Kata's travel speed isn't good and his range isn't infinite).
First, Sanji isn't orders of magnitude slower than Katakuri even if he is indeed slower, i mean it's a rel+ attack, the distance between them means nothing to an attack that fast, second, P1 was having a hard time reacting to Sanji's attacks that used the speed boosters even tho he could keep up with Sanji otherwise, i have no problem with sanji < kata, but RS < Kata makes no sense. Other than that Kata will have to waste a lot of haki to block RS's attacks or take damage because the pseudo-logia trick isn't going to work forever, it didn't against someone with inferior Kenbu (when compared to Kata's) as we see when Luffy started to use his FS with SM, at that point Kata himself choose for his Buso instead of the pseudo-logia. And as i said before the RS is a higher buff for Dura than Kata's haki and it needs no energy or concentretation to use at all.
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