Vegeta (Saiyan Saga) VS Gaara (New Era) (14-11-0) (GRACE)

[Fezzih_007]

Btw, before we Go back and forth again, can we discuss both characters winscons, and decide with you Will more likely happen.

 

[Padaruyos]

I feel like abusing the fact that Vegeta tier is unkown so technically Gaara is stronger is kinda of unfair, but i probally would do the same with another character, so i gonna let you have this.

Tbh I have no clue why it's rated as Unknown. Vegeta probably either up scales from Kid Goku (who's class K I think), or downscales from DBS Vegeta (who's Class M). Gaara's sand is Class G

 

[Fezzih_007]

Tbh I have no clue why it's rated as Unknown. Vegeta probably either up scales from Kid Goku (who's class K I think), or downscales from DBS Vegeta (who's Class M). Gaara's sand is Class G

Kinda bizarre that the guy who can punch dimensiom can only lift a ship.

Also think is weird since the the feat is done by a casual base Goku, so i don't even sure How we dowscale here.

 

[omegabronic]

Btw, before we Go back and forth again, can we discuss both characters winscons, and decide with you Will more likely happetime

didn't someone made a summary a few pages back?

R for reload

Don't think this matters much, goku is severely weakened there, he almost destroyed his body with kaioken times 3, and then went beyond what he could with kaioken times 4 for the beam struggle with galick gun, we can't put a number on how speed here because of that
https://twitter.com/FeKun5/status/1655199753460744202/photo/1

Vegeta gonna Dodge that and trow the attack anyway.

Multiple directions at the same time with speed advantage, no he wouldn't

And is not like Gaara can do that too.

Yes he can, grabing people with sand is his main stick in the series

So the sand gonna became smaler and even less

You know that there is rock bellow the sand in a desert right? Also it being smaller matters not for this

i don't see how Gaara is gonna benefit from this.

More sand for him to use

Yeah, is planetary the range, what are you talking about?

His beam can travel that far, his explosions have no feat for such

Man, i have to rewatch Naruto because i don't remember, but okay then.

ok

I feel like abusing the fact that Vegeta tier is unkown so technically Gaara is stronger is kinda of unfair, but i probally would do the same with another character, so i gonna let you have this.

Ki destroy too, don't just explodes.

difference in both being? Also not the point, ki explodes if it hits something, that much is true specially if it is the ground, you have only give me examples of such

It is, is just don't nescessary does the thing because is arbitrary

Do we have proof that vegeta knows this technique at all?

 

[TheGodOfICE777]

Iirc Gaara’s wincon is grabbing a hold of Vegeta and strangling him with stand

So I’m gonna vote Vegeta because with his 4x AP advantage in Oozaru he could disperse the sand and get out and penetrate Gaara’s sand shield with a powerful beam attack even if Gaara surrounds himself with the spherical sand barrier like he did in the chunin exams and against deidara

 

[Fezzih_007]

didn't someone made a summary a few pages back?

Is kinda outdated because of the things we talked about.

Don't think this matters much, goku is severely weakened there, he almost destroyed his body with kaioken times 3, and then went beyond what he could with kaioken times 4 for the beam struggle with galick gun, we can't put a number on how speed here because of that

Din't we also make It clear that Vegeta also weaknend by the Kamehameha + the power ball? They would be both severelly weaknend here, and Goku still made a statement that even If he could increase his speed 5x times, Vegeta would still be faster.
I not sure how that debunked this, since Goku can't use Kaioken 5x anyway even before he got weaknend, but he said in a hypothetical scenario that If he could, Vegeta still would be faster.

Multiple directions at the same time with speed advantage, no he wouldn't

Again, they in the Air, there's no só much sand there to the attack comes from all directions.

You know that there is rock bellow the sand in a desert right? Also it being smaller matters not for this

More sand for him to use

I not really sure what you saying, my argument is that Vegeta can destroyed the sand, or atleast make smaler and also decrease the number of sand that Gaara can use.

His beam can travel that far, his explosions have no feat for such

Where in the page says that? Is just says he have planetary range, nothing saying that is just his beam.

Do we have proof that vegeta knows this technique at all?

I not saying he can use Nappa technique, Volcano Explosion don't cause a explosion because is a property of the attack, he can use the same technique and cause a smaller explosion too, what really maters is his Power, the thing that he is using to make this explosion. Is not the technique specifically, he could do anything to make that AoE, is because of his Power.

Since Vegeta have more Power than him, he can cause a bigger explosion.

 

[omegabronic]

Is kinda outdated because of the things we talked about.

Huh, in a moment i will make it then

Din't we also make It clear that Vegeta also weaknend by the Kamehameha + the power ball? They would be both severelly weaknend here, and Goku still made a statement that even If he could increase his speed 5x times, Vegeta would still be faster.

Unless you can prove that both are weakned by the same ammount we can't, also oozaru is not accepted as being that fast in the profile anyway, so we can't even use it here anyway

I not sure how that debunked this, since Goku can't use Kaioken 5x anyway even before he got weaknend, but he said in a hypothetical scenario that If he could, Vegeta still would be faster.

Which is irrelevant to my point, goku is severely weakened and almost dead because of the time 4 kaioken, that makes it dubious if that was because of vegeta's speed or his own weakened state

Again, they in the Air, there's no só much sand there to the attack comes from all directions.

Gaara can make kilometers of sand go into the air and make them come from all directions, also that assumes that gaara would allow vegeta to fly away that easily in the first place

I not really sure what you saying, my argument is that Vegeta can destroyed the sand, or atleast make smaler and also decrease the number of sand that Gaara can use.

Making it smaller doesn't make gaara impossibilitated to use the sand, that wouldn't accomplish much, if vegeta tries to blast the desert like you claimed he would, that would just make more sand for gaara to use

Where in the page says that? Is just says he have planetary range, nothing saying that is just his beam.

With ki blasts, which are the beams i talked about

I not saying he can use Nappa technique, Volcano Explosion don't cause a explosion because is a property of the attack, he can use the same technique and cause a smaller explosion too

Can you prove this? Also you say that he can't just to say that he can

what really maters is his Power, the thing that he is using to make this explosion. Is not the technique specifically, he could do anything to make that AoE, is because of his Power.

We don't scale things like that with power dude, nappa has a feat for that and vegeta does not, he has shown a technique that does that, vegeta has not, we can't scale without proof

Since Vegeta have more Power than him, he can cause a bigger explosion.

Again, we don't scale range like that, nor do we assume that one char can use a technique of another just because he is stronger

 

[Arnoldstone18]

The 5-B chackra is from gaara, not from his sand, the scouter does not detect strenght, it detects ki/energy, gaara's energy is 5-B so it will detect as such

If that was the case it would’ve detected Gohan being powerful before Gohan used Ki to power up his body and hit Raditz. But it didn’t. So point is moot.

Scouters detect Ki and measure how intense it is. More ki means stronger punches, higher speed (as long as it's not accompined with a huge increase in mass), stronger energy blasts etc. Which is why the numbers change when someone powers up or suppresses their ki. Specific techniques have different PL from the user's normal PL due to unique properties the technique may have or simply a long charge time (Makankosappo). The scouters are capable of detecting that the Makankosappo/Kamehameha PL is different than Piccolo's/Goku's normal PL, meaning that Scouters can pick up Ki in objects other than lifeforms. Meaning it can detect Chakra in Gaara's sand.

You are comparing attacks made of Ki to literal Ki/chakra infused objects? Did you forget a fighter has to raise their Ki signatures to perform a Ki technique…

When as a scouter detected an object infused with Ki.

 

[TheGodOfICE777]

Huh, in a moment i will make it then


Unless you can prove that both are weakned by the same ammount we can't, also oozaru is not accepted as being that fast in the profile anyway, so we can't even use it here anyway



Which is irrelevant to my point, goku is severely weakened and almost dead because of the time 4 kaioken, that makes it dubious if that was because of vegeta's speed or his own weakened state


Gaara can make kilometers of sand go into the air and make them come from all directions, also that assumes that gaara would allow vegeta to fly away that easily in the first place


Making it smaller doesn't make gaara impossibilitated to use the sand, that wouldn't accomplish much, if vegeta tries to blast the desert like you claimed he would, that would just make more sand for gaara to use


With ki blasts, which are the beams i talked about


Can you prove this? Also you say that he can't just to say that he can


We don't scale things like that with power dude, nappa has a feat for that and vegeta does not, he has shown a technique that does that, vegeta has not, we can't scale without proof


Again, we don't scale range like that, nor do we assume that one char can use a technique of another just because he is stronger

For the Oozaru multipliers some haven’t been downscaled properly and multiplied correctly on all profiles yet since it’s still kinda recent but it’ll be done eventually

 

[omegabronic]

If that was the case it would’ve detected Gohan being powerful before Gohan used Ki to power up himself. But it didn’t. So point is moot.

Gaara IS powering up himself, also gaara can't really lower his chackra like the db dudes can, also they are 500 meters away, gaara will have plenty of time to prove himself worth of vegeta

 

[Arnoldstone18]

Gaara IS powering up himself,

So why is he 8-B and not 5-B?

 

[omegabronic]

For the Oozaru multipliers some haven’t been downscaled properly and multiplied correctly on all profiles yet since it’s still kinda recent but it’ll be done eventually

Vegeta only ever says "power" and not speed like the kaioken mutiplier does, so we can't really aply it to speed

 

[omegabronic]

So why is he 8-B and not 5-B?

Because that is how chackra works in naruto

 

[TheGodOfICE777]

Vegeta only ever says "power" and not speed like the kaioken mutiplier does, so we can't really aply it to speed

Yeah power and speed are relative especially in this part of db

Note: It has been stated numerous times across various sources in the series that a larger ki means greater statistics -- statistics such as strength[1] and overall power[2], speed[3], aerial capabilities[4], destructive capacity[4], and defense[4].

Also it mentions Vegeta gained a speed increase where Goku mentioned a hypothetical boost he couldn’t do wouldn’t be enough and atp Vegeta had been badly damaged by the spirit bomb and lost a lot of his ki due to making the power ball idk why you keep ignoring the note on the db page also there’s a statement in namek where he mentions due to his power increasing his speed also increased

 

[Fezzih_007]

Unless you can prove that both are weakned by the same ammount we can't,

I don't see how that matters, since Goku assessment don't take in consideration his weaknend state in consideration. He can't use Kaioken 5 times not even in normal state, but If he could, Vegeta still would be faster.

also oozaru is not accepted as being that fast in the profile anyway, so we can't even use it here anyway

I trought that is don't accepted being this fast in a 10x amp, the page still says he got faster attack speed in his great ape form, the 5x speed amp is a rought estimative.

Which is irrelevant to my point, goku is severely Kennedy and almost dead because of the time 4 kaioken

Exageration here, like yes his body is demaged, but he not almost dead.

, that makes it dubious if that was because of vegeta's speed or his own weakened state

The manga says is because Vegeta speed trought.

Gaara can make kilometers of sand go into the air and make them come from all directions

While fighting a opponent like Vegeta? And even then, Vegeta can make the sand dissapear anyway.

, also that assumes that gaara would allow vegeta to fly away that easily in the first place

I not assuming that he would allowed Vegeta to fly away, i assuming that he would't be able to stop him anyway, because Vegeta can dissipate the sand, and fly upwards super fast.

Making it smaller doesn't make gaara impossibilitated to use the sand, that wouldn't accomplish much, if vegeta tries to blast the desert like you claimed he would, that would just make more sand for gaara to use

If Vegeta Blast the desert, the explosion is gonna decimate most of the sand, send them to the sides, and sone of them Will Go upwards, saying that It would make more is kinda wrong.

With ki blasts, which are the beams i talked about

Ki Blast is also the attack like Balls or energy too, and nothing in the wiki is saying that is Just the beams.

Can you prove this? Also you say that he can't just to say that he can

I typed wrong, i meant to say another technique.
Anyway, this is Basic powerscaling.
A person can destroy the moon
B person defeat A person
B person can also destroy the moon.
Nappa is stronger than Picollo who can destroy the moon, so the city level range is the Basic of what he can do, he can probally do a attack more powerfull.

We don't scale things like that with power dude, nappa has a feat for that and vegeta does not, he has shown a technique that does that, vegeta has not, we can't scale without proof

But that's How in Dragon Ball Works trought.

Again, we don't scale range like that, nor do we assume that one char can use a technique of another just because he is stronger

I not saying vegeta can use the same technique than Nappa, i just saying he can do the same range of explosion since he is stronger. Nappa Volcanic Esplosion don't nescessary make the city explode, Nappa could do the same attack and cause a mountain to be destroyed too, is just him controling his Power.
Vegeta is stronger than him, so he can make a more powerfull attack with other technique of his.

And Vegeta Super Explosive Wave have a Very long renge anyway.

 

[omegabronic]

Yeah power and speed are relative especially in this part of db

Note: It has been stated numerous times across various sources in the series that a larger ki means greater statistics -- statistics such as strength[1] and overall power[2], speed[3], aerial capabilities[4], destructive capacity[4], and defense[4].

That doesn't mean that it is by the same ammount, pretty sure we don't accept as such

Also it mentions Vegeta gained a speed increase where Goku mentioned a hypothetical boost he couldn’t do wouldn’t be enough

while he was severely weakned and almost dead from using the kaioken times 3 and then even beyond his limits with times 4

and atp Vegeta had been badly damaged by the spirit bomb

Vegeta didn't got hit with the spirit bomb until after he detransformed from oozaru

and lost a lot of his ki due

he lost a bit of his ki, not too much of it, goku was in a far worst situation, unless you can prove that they are both similarly weakened

to making the power ball idk why you keep ignoring the note on the db page

i am not ignoring it, it just doesn't matter for this topic

also there’s a statement in namek where he mentions due to his power increasing his speed also increased

Yeah, so? That doesn't say that it is by the same ammount, of course that if the thing that gives the stats improve so does the stats, but unless it is said to be by the same ammount, we simply do not assume that it does, in fact the only reason we accept kaioken as being multiplication by all stats is being it is directly said to multiply all stats

I don't see how that matters, since Goku assessment don't take in consideration his weaknend state in consideration.

yes it does, he is talking about his current situation and how even if he uses in that time he wouldn't be able to do the spirit bomb

He can't use Kaioken 5 times not even in normal state, but If he could, Vegeta still would be faster.

yeah, in that situation where goku is weakened

I trought that is don't accepted being this fast in a 10x amp, the page still says he got faster attack speed in his great ape form, the 5x speed amp is a rought estimative.

we don't have an accepted value to how mich he got faster

Exageration here, like yes his body is demaged, but he not almost dead.

yes he is, that is what kaio sama said that would happen if he used beyond kaioken 2x

The manga says is because Vegeta speed trought.

vegeta speed in comparison to a severely weakened goku, we don't know if vegeta is faster there because of his own speed or if it is because goku is weakened tremendosly

While fighting a opponent like Vegeta?

Any reason as to why not?

And even then, Vegeta can make the sand dissapear anyway.

he does not have enough ap advantage to do that

I not assuming that he would allowed Vegeta to fly away, i assuming that he would't be able to stop him anyway, because Vegeta can dissipate the sand, and fly upwards super fast.

gaara is faster and has too much sand for vegeta do dissipate, and even if he does disipate gaara can just control it again, to disipate makes nothing much useful for vegeta

If Vegeta Blast the desert, the explosion is gonna decimate most of the sand

and then create more due to pulverizing the ground

send them to the sides, and sone of them Will Go upwards

where gaara can control again very easily

, saying that It would make more is kinda wrong.

do you know how pulverization works?

Ki Blast is also the attack like Balls or energy too, and nothing in the wiki is saying that is Just the beams.

semantics, the name doesn't matter, beam, ball energy my point changes in nothing

I typed wrong, i meant to say another technique.
Anyway, this is Basic powerscaling.
A person can destroy the moon
B person defeat A person
B person can also destroy the moon.
Nappa is stronger than Picollo who can destroy the moon, so the city level range is the Basic of what he can do, he can probally do a attack more powerfull.

you can't use the logic of power to range, that doesn't work like that

But that's How in Dragon Ball Works trought.

no it isn't, idk where you got that from

I not saying vegeta can use the same technique than Nappa, i just saying he can do the same range of explosion since he is stronger.

nappa does that with a speciphic technique, unless vegeta can do the same one nappa does we can't assume that he can

Nappa Volcanic Esplosion don't nescessary make the city explode, Nappa could do the same attack and cause a mountain to be destroyed too, is just him controling his Power.

evidence for this? Has that shown the range to do that in the manga?

Vegeta is stronger than him, so he can make a more powerfull attack with other technique of his.

more powerfull=/=more range

And Vegeta Super Explosive Wave have a Very long renge anyway.

A couple of meters while gaara is 500meters away

 

[Arnoldstone18]

Because that is how chackra works in naruto

what sort of answer is this? There are those who are 5-B physically so you can’t just type this to me and expect me to just go along. Lmfao.

In Dragonball if you don’t use Ki to enhance your body you’re weak to a scouter. Happened to characters like kid Gohan so this is the same case with Gaara period.

Garaa isn’t the type of person to attack first and ask questions later so Vegeta is likely to just use Dirty Fireworks on him.

 

[TheGodOfICE777]

That doesn't mean that it is by the same ammount, pretty sure we don't accept as such


while he was severely weakned and almost dead from using the kaioken times 3 and then even beyond his limits with times 4


Vegeta didn't got hit with the spirit bomb until after he detransformed from oozaru


he lost a bit of his ki, not too much of it, goku was in a far worst situation, unless you can prove that they are both similarly weakened


i am not ignoring it, it just doesn't matter for this topic


Yeah, so? That doesn't say that it is by the same ammount, of course that if the thing that gives the stats improve so does the stats, but unless it is said to be by the same ammount, we simply do not assume that it does, in fact the only reason we accept kaioken as being multiplication by all stats is being it is directly said to multiply all stats


yes it does, he is talking about his current situation and how even if he uses in that time he wouldn't be able to do the spirit bomb


yeah, in that situation where goku is weakened


we don't have an accepted value to how mich he got faster


yes he is, that is what kaio sama said that would happen if he used beyond kaioken 2x


vegeta speed in comparison to a severely weakened goku, we don't know if vegeta is faster there because of his own speed or if it is because goku is weakened tremendosly


Any reason as to why not?


he does not have enough ap advantage to do that


gaara is faster and has too much sand for vegeta do dissipate, and even if he does disipate gaara can just control it again, to disipate makes nothing much useful for vegeta


and then create more due to pulverizing the ground


where gaara can control again very easily


do you know how pulverization works?


semantics, the name doesn't matter, beam, ball energy my point changes in nothing

you can't use the logic of power to range, that doesn't work like that


no it isn't, idk where you got that from


nappa does that with a speciphic technique, unless vegeta can do the same one nappa does we can't assume that he can


evidence for this? Has that shown the range to do that in the manga?


more powerfull=/=more range


A couple of meters while gaara is 500meters away

We do if an explicit multiplier is given like for SSJ

Same with Vegeta

I meant getting hit by the x4 kamehameha mb

Goku tells us Vegeta’s power dropped when he made the ki ball and is surprised from the drop of power I mean the proof is there Vegeta was heavily injured


it is speed is important for this topic

We literally do the Oozaru multiplier was accepted in the Bojack and Oozaru crt you’re just nitpicking the way it was wrote

 

[omegabronic]

We do if an explicit multiplier is given like for SSJ

The only reason we do that for ssj1 is because of it scaling to kaioken via freeza percentage thingy, oozaru has not same luxury

Same with Vegeta

Vegeta was hit by something barely stronger than himself and made a ball that made him only a bit weaker, goku was destroying his own body with kaioken times 3 while also almost dying and then went beyond with times 4, goku was way worst then vegeta there

I meant getting hit by the x4 kamehameha mb

Oh okay, well, being hit by something 1.5 times stronger than you is not that much of a loss, kaioken times 3 matched his galick gun, so times 4 being only 1.5 times makes him being hit by it not that much impressive

Goku tells us Vegeta’s power dropped when he made the ki ball and is surprised from the drop of power I mean the proof is there Vegeta was heavily injured

Not by much, only a "bit"
And He was not much injured tbh

it is speed is important for this topic

Speed is important, but the note itself is not useful since it is just saying the obvious, if you gain morr ki = you are faster then before, which is not the tooic of contention here

We literally do the Oozaru multiplier was accepted in the Bojack and Oozaru crt you’re just nitpicking the way it was wrote

Nope, i saw the crt, the speed being multiplied was not a proposal there

what sort of answer is this? There are those who are 5-B physically so you can’t just type this to me and expect me to just go along. Lmfao.

Yes i do, those who are 5-B physically can augment their bodies with their chackra like that, gaara can't even tho he has that much chackra, that is more of a skill thing than anything else, like, he has 5-B chackra, hence why the sand is that strong

In Dragonball if you don’t use Ki to enhance your body you’re weak to a scouter. Happened to characters like kid Gohan so this is the same case with Gaara period.

Nope, the scouter didn't pick up gohan because he was not using his ki at all until that moment, here gaara is, it isn't the same situation period, also the scouter detects stuff that is not a body in the first place so, even more not comparable

Garaa isn’t the type of person to attack first and ask questions later so Vegeta is likely to just use Dirty Fireworks on him.

Here he decided to do so since vegeta killed a bunch of his jonin and is trying to invade his village, read the op, also he would detect the 5-B energy coming from gaara as i have explained

 

[Fezzih_007]

yes it does, he is talking about his current situation and how even if he uses in that time he wouldn't be able to do the spirit bomb

yeah, in that situation where goku is weakened

Can you show me a scan that Goku is specifically talking about his weaknend state?

we don't have an accepted value to how mich he got faster

But we have a Scan that potentially show how much faster he could gotten. I think is good enough to considere.

vegeta speed in comparison to a severely weakened goku, we don't know if vegeta is faster there because of his own speed or if it is because goku is weakened tremendosly

Only If we have a statement about if is because Goku weaknend state.

he does not have enough ap advantage to do that

He does, but okay.

Any reason as to why not?

Ah Fine, Vegeta is a opponent that can spam Ki Blast, each one being able to one shot Gaara and dissipate his shields, while have a great mobility in the Air, making his attacks hard to connects already, and his attacks not gonna do much demage because of the AP difference.
Gaara is gonna have a hard time concentrating while moving kilomets of sand with him.

gaara is faster

Debatable

has too much sand for vegeta do dissipate,

Again, in the Air he not gonna Control that much sand.

and even if he does disipate gaara can just control it again,

And vegeta Just gonna dissipate again.

and then create more due to pulverizing the ground

Unless Gaara can Control Dust, no.

where gaara can control again very easily

Not really sure How that debunked my point of not being that much sand aftewards. A few Sands particles Will be send to the Air, is not that much.

do you know how pulverization works?

Yes, don't turn things into Sands, but into dust.

semantics, the name doesn't matter, beam, ball energy my point changes in nothing

I was talking about the range of the explosion he can make.

you can't use the logic of power to range, that doesn't work like that

That don't make anu sense, a Guy can destroy the moon meaning that the range of explosion he can do is Moon size too, is logic here.

no it isn't, idk where you got that from

Well, is logic

nappa does that with a speciphic technique, unless vegeta can do the same one nappa does we can't assume that he can

Unless you saying that Nappa technique that destroyed a city is because have a special ability to It, and not because Nappa is that powerfull, that don't really matter.

evidence for this? Has that shown the range to do that in the manga?

Considering that he use other attacks, and don't cause this range of explosion, i pretty sure is okay to aassume that is he controling his Power, not the technique property of destroying a city.
And in other médias, he uses the same move, and cause a smaller or bigger explosion too.
He also is 5-B here, so saying he don't have the attack potency the range to do so without any of technique is absurd.

more powerfull=/=more range

Makes more sense considering How Dragon Ball Works.

A couple of meters while gaara is 500meters away

Picollo can also do the same technique, and cause a explosion that cover a entire Island.
Grovel

 

[Fezzih_007]

yes he is, that is what kaio sama said that would happen if he used beyond kaioken 2x

Forgot about this, can you show Scan?

 

[Fezzih_007]

The speed argument is kinda redunt too, even If you downplay and says that is just a 2x speed amp, Vegeta still would be faster here.

 

[SlendVeny]

Iirc Gaara’s wincon is grabbing a hold of Vegeta and strangling him with stand

Or outspeeding and killing him before he goes Oozaru.

Or easily crushing his limbs with higher LS.

 

[SlendVeny]

The speed argument is kinda redunt too, even If you downplay and says that is just a 2x speed amp, Vegeta still would be faster here.

Vegeta at 2x speed is not faster than Gaara lol

 

[Fezzih_007]

Speed: FTL (Equal to or faster than Six Paths Teen Naruto, calculated at 2.11c)

Speed: FTL (Scales to Kaio-Ken x3 Goku, who is At Least 1.62c)

According with the OP, If the numbers are correct, yes he would.

 

[SlendVeny]

According with the OP, If the numbers are correct, yes he would.

Gaara blocked Fused Momoshiki, who is Momoshiki and Kinshiki combined. Both of them are > Kaguya > Juubidara > Teen Naruto

 

[omegabronic]

Can you show me a scan that Goku is specifically talking about his weaknend state?

He is talking about his current situation about him not being able to do the spirit bomb, why would he be talking a previous moment and not his current predicament?

But we have a Scan that potentially show how much faster he could gotten. I think is good enough to considere.

Well, i have given reason to doubt that, but we are discussing it right now so, i guess we can drop this point until we reach an agreement on the other point

Only If we have a statement about if is because Goku weaknend state.

read above

He does, but okay.

Less then 5x ap advantage is not that big of a gap

Ah Fine, Vegeta is a opponent that can spam Ki Blast, each one being able to one shot Gaara and dissipate his shields

and gaara can spam as much with his sand

while have a great mobility in the Air, making his attacks hard to connects already

the sand is as mobile as vegeta, so no

, and his attacks not gonna do much demage because of the AP difference.

lifting strenght, he can easily pin and restrain vegeta

Gaara is gonna have a hard time concentrating while moving kilomets of sand with him.

proof of this?

Debatable

not really

Again, in the Air he not gonna Control that much sand.

See the deidara fight, he can do it, he specially would if vegeta showed himself as a threat

And vegeta Just gonna dissipate again.

And then it will be reformed again, cicles repeats until vegeta runs out of stamina

Unless Gaara can Control Dust, no.

Guess what sand is

Not really sure How that debunked my point of not being that much sand aftewards. A few Sands particles Will be send to the Air, is not that much.

Numerous will if the explosion is big enough, the aftermath will leave much sand in the ground also

Yes, don't turn things into Sands, but into dust.

Both are the same thing

I was talking about the range of the explosion he can make.

still doesn't change my point

That don't make anu sense, a Guy can destroy the moon meaning that the range of explosion he can do is Moon size too, is logic here.

not really no, gaara has 5-B ap and he doesn't have planetary range, range feats are separated from ap feats

Well, is logic

Not really very logical if you ask me

Unless you saying that Nappa technique that destroyed a city is because have a special ability to It, and not because Nappa is that powerfull, that don't really matter.

It is a spechipic technique that nappa used, him being powerful or not doesn't change that

Considering that he use other attacks, and don't cause this range of explosion, i pretty sure is okay to aassume that is he controling his Power, not the technique property of destroying a city.

DC=/=AP, that is not a good comparison

And in other médias, he uses the same move, and cause a smaller or bigger explosion too.

manga is the only thing that matters here

He also is 5-B here, so saying he don't have the attack potency the range to do so without any of technique is absurd.

AP=/DC

Makes more sense considering How Dragon Ball Works.

prove that that is how db works

Picollo can also do the same technique, and cause a explosion that cover a entire Island.
Grovel

Same argument i made for nappa works for piccolo here

Forgot about this, can you show Scan?

When i get to my pc i will send

 

[TheGodOfICE777]

The only reason we do that for ssj1 is because of it scaling to kaioken via freeza percentage thingy, oozaru has not same luxury


Vegeta was hit by something barely stronger than himself and made a ball that made him only a bit weaker, goku was destroying his own body with kaioken times 3 while also almost dying and then went beyond with times 4, goku was way worst then vegeta there


Oh okay, well, being hit by something 1.5 times stronger than you is not that much of a loss, kaioken times 3 matched his galick gun, so times 4 being only 1.5 times makes him being hit by it not that much impressive


Not by much, only a "bit"
And He was not much injured tbh


Speed is important, but the note itself is not useful since it is just saying the obvious, if you gain morr ki = you are faster then before, which is not the tooic of contention here


Nope, i saw the crt, the speed being multiplied was not a proposal there


Yes i do, those who are 5-B physically can augment their bodies with their chackra like that, gaara can't even tho he has that much chackra, that is more of a skill thing than anything else, like, he has 5-B chackra, hence why the sand is that strong


Nope, the scouter didn't pick up gohan because he was not using his ki at all until that moment, here gaara is, it isn't the same situation period, also the scouter detects stuff that is not a body in the first place so, even more not comparable




Here he decided to do so since vegeta killed a bunch of his jonin and is trying to invade his village, read the op, also he would detect the 5-B energy coming from gaara as i have explained

Sure it upscales Kaioken x20 but that’s like a 2.5x increase there’s no proof it’s a 50x speed amp and Frieza was injured by spirit bomb at that point with the logic you’re using make it invalid

Wdym only a little stronger than himself it was way stronger than himself his attack just immediately got overpowered and he took the blunt of the force both of them were badly bruised and on the verge of death and out of stamina and the power of it doenst mean anything he was badly hurt from it still

Semantics tbh

I’m saying if you get a multiplier on your ki boost then yes we have a number we can use

Check the op of the crt

Or outspeeding and killing him before he goes Oozaru.

Or easily crushing his limbs with higher LS.

Pretty sure speed can be a factor but it can’t be a major factor for a win to be applied and is that something Gaara does Ic?

 

[SlendVeny]

Pretty sure speed can be a factor but it can’t be a major factor for a win to be applied and is that something Gaara does Ic?

He broke Rock Lee's limbs. Or course, he was meaner back then, but he would be angry at Vegeta for killing people he liked.

 

[SlendVeny]

He broke Rock Lee's limbs. Or course, he was meaner back then, but he would be angry at Vegeta for killing people he liked.

OH, AND HE CRUSHED DEIDARA'S ARM

 

[omegabronic]

Sure it upscales Kaioken x20 but that’s like a 2.5x increase there’s no proof it’s a 50x speed amp and Frieza was injured by spirit bomb at that point with the logic you’re using make it invalid

That is a discussion for another time, but the key point is the percentage that freeza gave, also he just got up after that, he was injured, but not by that much

Wdym only a little stronger than himself it was way stronger than himself his attack just immediately got overpowered and he took the blunt of the force both of them were badly bruised and on the verge of death and out of stamina and the power of it doenst mean anything he was badly hurt from it still

He was not lol, galick gun matched the times 3 kamehameha and then got overpowered by time 4 kamehameha, aka a 1.5 difference

Semantics tbh

How is that semantica? He specifically says that was only for a bit

I’m saying if you get a multiplier on your ki boost then yes we have a number we can use

we don't do stuff like that, also vegeta says that his "power" would be 10 times greatet, not his ki

Check the op of the crt

I read it, what about it?

 

[TheGodOfICE777]

He broke Rock Lee's limbs. Or course, he was meaner back then, but he would be angry at Vegeta for killing people he liked.

I meant blitzing people and killing them ic

OH, AND HE CRUSHED DEIDARA'S ARM

yeah I remember that

That is a discussion for another time, but the key point is the percentage that freeza gave, also he just got up after that, he was injured, but not by that much


He was not lol, galick gun matched the times 3 kamehameha and then got overpowered by time 4 kamehameha, aka a 1.5 difference


How is that semantica? He specifically says that was only for a bit


we don't do stuff like that, also vegeta says that his "power" would be 10 times greatet, not his ki


I read it, what about it?

I was just explaining the flaws in your logic and he was bruised up you could see it visually

He was injured can you prove he wasn’t injured he was literally battered up with blood on his body from the attack

Vegeta says “My power may drop a bit” and Goku is shocked from how much his power dropped from the power ball may just means a possibility

We literally do KK x5 is what we used for justification in the crt it got accepted Frieza kk x20 is the justification we used for SSJ’s multiplier technically Oozaru is more consistent here

That the logic for the 2 is fundamentally the same

 

[SlendVeny]

I meant blitzing people and killing them ic

I didn't say blitzing, just outspeeding. And Gaara is the type to finish things quickly.

 

[omegabronic]

I was just explaining the flaws in your logic and he was bruised up you could see it visually

He was injured yes, but not by much, goku was still hopeless withtout ssj1 at the time

He was injured can you prove he wasn’t injured

strawman, i never said that he wasn't injured, he just wasn't by much

he was literally battered up with blood on his body from the attack

scan?

Vegeta says “My power may drop a bit” and Goku is shocked from how much his power dropped from the power ball may just means a possibility

goku was not shocked at thr drop, he was confused as to why vegeta would waste energy on a small ball of energy

We literally do KK x5 is what we used for justification in the crt it got accepted

Dude can you link the crt? Pretty sure that wasn't what got that accepted, even then, again, for power and not speed

Frieza kk x20 is the justification we used for SSJ’s multiplier technically Oozaru is more consistent here

Oozaru is specifically a power growth, that is what it is said by vegeta

That the logic for the 2 is fundamentally the same

Not even close, vegeta specifies his power being multiplied, not all stats like kaioken does

 

[Fezzih_007]

He is talking about his current situation about him not being able to do the spirit bomb, why would he be talking a previous moment and not his current predicament?

Well, he saying like even If he could use Kaioken times 5, which he can't because he is weak, he would't be able to dodge Vegeta attacks. Since he can't use in his weak state, he is talking about If he is in good conditions.

Well, i have given reason to doubt that, but we are discussing it right now so, i guess we can drop this point until we reach an agreement on the other point

Ok then, we come back to this later.

Less then 5x ap advantage is not that big of a gap

Is still a 4x gap trought, i not saying he can destroy his shields complety, i saying that a barragem of attacks in that Level could.
unless Gaara as show bê able to defend against multiples attacks bigger than his own Ap.

See the deidara fight, he can do it, he specially would if vegeta showed himself as a threat

Bring the entire sand to block the explosion of his village, that would't be happening here since this is a 1v1.

And then it will be reformed again, cicles repeats until vegeta runs out of stamina

Not before he one shot Gaara, he just need to dissipate the sand a few times and got a good hit.
He can easily do this.

Guess what sand is

Both are the same thing

They not, no, is super diference.

and gaara can spam as much with his sand

I don't think It really matters, since his sand is not as strong as Vegeta attacks.

the sand is as mobile as vegeta, so no

Why?

proof of this?

He don't need to concetrate to move sand?

still doesn't change my point

I honestly don't remember what the original point was, and i not going back tmin the Thread to read.

not really no, gaara has 5-B ap and he doesn't have planetary range, range feats are separated from ap feats

Makes sense, but the Guy can destroy the moon here, so his range of explosion and Ap are the same then.

It is a spechipic technique that nappa used, him being powerful or not doesn't change that

You gonna have to proof that.

manga is the only thing that matters here

But we can use other media tô illustrate right?

prove that that is how db works

If a Guy is more powerfull than you, he can also make a bigger explosion, do i really need a Scan? Tch.

Same argument i made for nappa works for piccolo here

Ins't you argument that since Vegeta can't do the same technique than Nappa, he don't have the range of attack? Picollo and Vegeta have the same technique, Super Explosive Wave, so both can do the same explosion. So Vegeta can do a explosion large enought to hit Gaara.
Gaara would't be that Far away anyway, since Vegeta can get closer.


Btw, i gonna wait for you to do the wincons for the two.
So Will not respond.

 

[TheGodOfICE777]

He was injured yes, but not by much, goku was still hopeless withtout ssj1 at the time


strawman, i never said that he wasn't injured, he just wasn't by much


scan?


goku was not shocked at thr drop, he was confused as to why vegeta would waste energy on a small ball of energy


Dude can you link the crt? Pretty sure that wasn't what got that accepted, even then, again, for power and not speed


Oozaru is specifically a power growth, that is what it is said by vegeta


Not even close, vegeta specifies his power being multiplied, not all stats like kaioken does

Okay then by your logic we can’t quantify the speed for SSJ it should be x20 or just none because Ssj is stated to increase your battle power and you’re acting like it’s quantifiable to see how much Friezas power dropped

My apologies if you didn’t say that but it was what I thought was implied and he was visually pretty injured

You legit sent a scan of Vegeta bleeding from his mouth but I’ll just send it

He was shocked on his power dropping because he was confused what he was planning to do

It’s the Oozaru and Bojack crt the op uses Goku comparing a hypothetical KKx5 not helping at all against Vegeta as justification

He said it multiples your power same with SSJ if your ki is multiplied it applies to the things what a larger ki indicates

I was referring to SSJ not Kaioken I never mentioned Kaioken and Oozaru using the same logic

 

[SlendVeny]

Okay then by your logic we can’t quantify the speed for SSJ it should be x20 or just none because Ssj is stated to increase your battle power and you’re acting like it’s quantifiable to see how much Friezas power dropped

My apologies if you didn’t say that but it was what I thought was implied and he was visually pretty injured

You legit sent a scan of Vegeta bleeding from his mouth but I’ll just send it

He was shocked on his power dropping because he was confused what he was planning to do

It’s the Oozaru and Bojack crt the op uses Goku comparing a hypothetical KKx5 not helping at all against Vegeta as justification

He said it multiples your power same with SSJ if your ki is multiplied it applies to the things what a larger ki indicates

I was referring to SSJ not Kaioken I never mentioned Kaioken and Oozaru using the same logic

Eh, SSJ was shown to be faster than 100% Frieza, and Frieza's percentages are shown to be relative to speed, considering 50% Frieza > KKx20 Goku.

 

[TheGodOfICE777]

Eh, SSJ was shown to be faster than 100% Frieza, and Frieza's percentages are shown to be relative to speed, considering 50% Frieza > KKx20 Goku.

Yeah 50% frieza got injured and then killed Krillin and Goku turns Ssj and frieza goes into 100% and still gets demolished though technically he’d still be weaker since he was weakened

 

[omegabronic]

Well, he saying like even If he could use Kaioken times 5, which he can't because he is weak, he would't be able to dodge Vegeta attacks. Since he can't use in his weak state, he is talking about If he is in good conditions.

When did he specified that for you to reach that conclusion? Goku can't use times 5 period, times 4 already almost killed him, imagine what 5 would do

Ok then, we come back to this later.

Good thing we agreed on something

Is still a 4x gap trought, i not saying he can destroy his shields complety, i saying that a barragem of attacks in that Level could.
unless Gaara as show bê able to defend against multiples attacks bigger than his own Ap.

Well if it doesn't destroy completely he can just remake then immediatly after

Bring the entire sand to block the explosion of his village, that would't be happening here since this is a 1v1.

Vegeta is threatening to destroy his village as well here, read the OP

Not before he one shot Gaara, he just need to dissipate the sand a few times and got a good hit.
He can easily do this.

Not when they are more then 500 meters apart and gaara is constantly attacking him with sand from multiple directions

They not, no, is super diference.

They are the same, sand is nothing more than various particles mashed together, dust is just these particles, so a great ammount of them constitutes what sand is for gaara to control as shown in the battle against kimimaro

I don't think It really matters, since his sand is not as strong as Vegeta attacks.

Numbers matter a lot mote than you would think

Why?

Both fly in the same way and the sand can shapeshift in various forms while at it, it is very agile

He don't need to concetrate to move sand?

Not really no

I honestly don't remember what the original point was, and i not going back tmin the Thread to read.

Ok

Makes sense, but the Guy can destroy the moon here, so his range of explosion and Ap are the same then.

He has the attack potency to damage people on that level, but as i said AP=/=DC

You gonna have to proof that.

You are the one affirming things, the burden of proof is on you

But we can use other media tô illustrate right?

Nah not really

If a Guy is more powerfull than you, he can also make a bigger explosion, do i really need a Scan? Tch.

Yeah no, if a guy is more powerful then you then he is stronger, any other stat like range wouldn't scale without reason

Ins't you argument that since Vegeta can't do the same technique than Nappa, he don't have the range of attack? Picollo and Vegeta have the same technique, Super Explosive Wave, so both can do the same explosion. So Vegeta can do a explosion large enought to hit Gaara.
Gaara would't be that Far away anyway, since Vegeta can get closer.

Where did you get that they are the same technique?

Btw, i gonna wait for you to do the wincons for the two.
So Will not respond.

Fair enough

Okay then by your logic we can’t quantify the speed for SSJ it should be x20 or just none because Ssj is stated to increase your battle power and you’re acting like it’s quantifiable to see how much Friezas power dropped

The ssj1 is superior to kaioken 20x which multiplies all stats the same way

My apologies if you didn’t say that but it was what I thought was implied and he was visually pretty injured

It is fine dude, he was injured sure, but not by much, goku was almost dead

You legit sent a scan of Vegeta bleeding from his mouth but I’ll just send it

Read above

He was shocked on his power dropping because he was confused what he was planning to do

He was shocked on why would vegeta lower his power at all just to do a weak ki blast, goku never specifies how much power vegeta lost, not if it was too much

It’s the Oozaru and Bojack crt the op uses Goku comparing a hypothetical KKx5 not helping at all against Vegeta as justification

Yeah for power, not speed lol

He said it multiples your power same with SSJ if your ki is multiplied it applies to the things what a larger ki indicates

He specified power, if it wasn't for the kaioken scaling ssj1 would not be 50x speed, so moot point

I was referring to SSJ not Kaioken I never mentioned Kaioken and Oozaru using the same logic

Oh ok then sorry for the mistake
Well the ssj1 Only scales like for scaling to the 20x kaioken so, not really much changes for tje point

 

[SlendVeny]

Yeah 50% frieza got injured and then killed Krillin and Goku turns Ssj and frieza goes into 100% and still gets demolished though technically he’d still be weaker since he was weakened

Goku was also injured