Fezzih_007
He/Him- 7,707
- 2,873
Btw, before we Go back and forth again, can we discuss both characters winscons, and decide with you Will more likely happen.
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Tbh I have no clue why it's rated as Unknown. Vegeta probably either up scales from Kid Goku (who's class K I think), or downscales from DBS Vegeta (who's Class M). Gaara's sand is Class GI feel like abusing the fact that Vegeta tier is unkown so technically Gaara is stronger is kinda of unfair, but i probally would do the same with another character, so i gonna let you have this.
Kinda bizarre that the guy who can punch dimensiom can only lift a ship.Tbh I have no clue why it's rated as Unknown. Vegeta probably either up scales from Kid Goku (who's class K I think), or downscales from DBS Vegeta (who's Class M). Gaara's sand is Class G
didn't someone made a summary a few pages back?Btw, before we Go back and forth again, can we discuss both characters winscons, and decide with you Will more likely happetime
Don't think this matters much, goku is severely weakened there, he almost destroyed his body with kaioken times 3, and then went beyond what he could with kaioken times 4 for the beam struggle with galick gun, we can't put a number on how speed here because of that
Multiple directions at the same time with speed advantage, no he wouldn'tVegeta gonna Dodge that and trow the attack anyway.
Yes he can, grabing people with sand is his main stick in the seriesAnd is not like Gaara can do that too.
You know that there is rock bellow the sand in a desert right? Also it being smaller matters not for thisSo the sand gonna became smaler and even less
More sand for him to usei don't see how Gaara is gonna benefit from this.
His beam can travel that far, his explosions have no feat for suchYeah, is planetary the range, what are you talking about?
okMan, i have to rewatch Naruto because i don't remember, but okay then.
I feel like abusing the fact that Vegeta tier is unkown so technically Gaara is stronger is kinda of unfair, but i probally would do the same with another character, so i gonna let you have this.
difference in both being? Also not the point, ki explodes if it hits something, that much is true specially if it is the ground, you have only give me examples of suchKi destroy too, don't just explodes.
Do we have proof that vegeta knows this technique at all?It is, is just don't nescessary does the thing because is arbitrary
Is kinda outdated because of the things we talked about.didn't someone made a summary a few pages back?
Din't we also make It clear that Vegeta also weaknend by the Kamehameha + the power ball? They would be both severelly weaknend here, and Goku still made a statement that even If he could increase his speed 5x times, Vegeta would still be faster.Don't think this matters much, goku is severely weakened there, he almost destroyed his body with kaioken times 3, and then went beyond what he could with kaioken times 4 for the beam struggle with galick gun, we can't put a number on how speed here because of that
Again, they in the Air, there's no só much sand there to the attack comes from all directions.Multiple directions at the same time with speed advantage, no he wouldn't
I not really sure what you saying, my argument is that Vegeta can destroyed the sand, or atleast make smaler and also decrease the number of sand that Gaara can use.You know that there is rock bellow the sand in a desert right? Also it being smaller matters not for this
More sand for him to use
Where in the page says that? Is just says he have planetary range, nothing saying that is just his beam.His beam can travel that far, his explosions have no feat for such
I not saying he can use Nappa technique, Volcano Explosion don't cause a explosion because is a property of the attack, he can use the same technique and cause a smaller explosion too, what really maters is his Power, the thing that he is using to make this explosion. Is not the technique specifically, he could do anything to make that AoE, is because of his Power.Do we have proof that vegeta knows this technique at all?
Huh, in a moment i will make it thenIs kinda outdated because of the things we talked about.
Unless you can prove that both are weakned by the same ammount we can't, also oozaru is not accepted as being that fast in the profile anyway, so we can't even use it here anywayDin't we also make It clear that Vegeta also weaknend by the Kamehameha + the power ball? They would be both severelly weaknend here, and Goku still made a statement that even If he could increase his speed 5x times, Vegeta would still be faster.
Which is irrelevant to my point, goku is severely weakened and almost dead because of the time 4 kaioken, that makes it dubious if that was because of vegeta's speed or his own weakened stateI not sure how that debunked this, since Goku can't use Kaioken 5x anyway even before he got weaknend, but he said in a hypothetical scenario that If he could, Vegeta still would be faster.
Gaara can make kilometers of sand go into the air and make them come from all directions, also that assumes that gaara would allow vegeta to fly away that easily in the first placeAgain, they in the Air, there's no só much sand there to the attack comes from all directions.
Making it smaller doesn't make gaara impossibilitated to use the sand, that wouldn't accomplish much, if vegeta tries to blast the desert like you claimed he would, that would just make more sand for gaara to useI not really sure what you saying, my argument is that Vegeta can destroyed the sand, or atleast make smaler and also decrease the number of sand that Gaara can use.
With ki blasts, which are the beams i talked aboutWhere in the page says that? Is just says he have planetary range, nothing saying that is just his beam.
Can you prove this? Also you say that he can't just to say that he canI not saying he can use Nappa technique, Volcano Explosion don't cause a explosion because is a property of the attack, he can use the same technique and cause a smaller explosion too
We don't scale things like that with power dude, nappa has a feat for that and vegeta does not, he has shown a technique that does that, vegeta has not, we can't scale without proofwhat really maters is his Power, the thing that he is using to make this explosion. Is not the technique specifically, he could do anything to make that AoE, is because of his Power.
Again, we don't scale range like that, nor do we assume that one char can use a technique of another just because he is strongerSince Vegeta have more Power than him, he can cause a bigger explosion.
The 5-B chackra is from gaara, not from his sand, the scouter does not detect strenght, it detects ki/energy, gaara's energy is 5-B so it will detect as such
Scouters detect Ki and measure how intense it is. More ki means stronger punches, higher speed (as long as it's not accompined with a huge increase in mass), stronger energy blasts etc. Which is why the numbers change when someone powers up or suppresses their ki. Specific techniques have different PL from the user's normal PL due to unique properties the technique may have or simply a long charge time (Makankosappo). The scouters are capable of detecting that the Makankosappo/Kamehameha PL is different than Piccolo's/Goku's normal PL, meaning that Scouters can pick up Ki in objects other than lifeforms. Meaning it can detect Chakra in Gaara's sand.
For the Oozaru multipliers some haven’t been downscaled properly and multiplied correctly on all profiles yet since it’s still kinda recent but it’ll be done eventuallyHuh, in a moment i will make it then
Unless you can prove that both are weakned by the same ammount we can't, also oozaru is not accepted as being that fast in the profile anyway, so we can't even use it here anyway
Which is irrelevant to my point, goku is severely weakened and almost dead because of the time 4 kaioken, that makes it dubious if that was because of vegeta's speed or his own weakened state
Gaara can make kilometers of sand go into the air and make them come from all directions, also that assumes that gaara would allow vegeta to fly away that easily in the first place
Making it smaller doesn't make gaara impossibilitated to use the sand, that wouldn't accomplish much, if vegeta tries to blast the desert like you claimed he would, that would just make more sand for gaara to use
With ki blasts, which are the beams i talked about
Can you prove this? Also you say that he can't just to say that he can
We don't scale things like that with power dude, nappa has a feat for that and vegeta does not, he has shown a technique that does that, vegeta has not, we can't scale without proof
Again, we don't scale range like that, nor do we assume that one char can use a technique of another just because he is stronger
Gaara IS powering up himself, also gaara can't really lower his chackra like the db dudes can, also they are 500 meters away, gaara will have plenty of time to prove himself worth of vegetaIf that was the case it would’ve detected Gohan being powerful before Gohan used Ki to power up himself. But it didn’t. So point is moot.
So why is he 8-B and not 5-B?Gaara IS powering up himself,
Vegeta only ever says "power" and not speed like the kaioken mutiplier does, so we can't really aply it to speedFor the Oozaru multipliers some haven’t been downscaled properly and multiplied correctly on all profiles yet since it’s still kinda recent but it’ll be done eventually
Because that is how chackra works in narutoSo why is he 8-B and not 5-B?
Yeah power and speed are relative especially in this part of dbVegeta only ever says "power" and not speed like the kaioken mutiplier does, so we can't really aply it to speed
I don't see how that matters, since Goku assessment don't take in consideration his weaknend state in consideration. He can't use Kaioken 5 times not even in normal state, but If he could, Vegeta still would be faster.Unless you can prove that both are weakned by the same ammount we can't,
I trought that is don't accepted being this fast in a 10x amp, the page still says he got faster attack speed in his great ape form, the 5x speed amp is a rought estimative.also oozaru is not accepted as being that fast in the profile anyway, so we can't even use it here anyway
Exageration here, like yes his body is demaged, but he not almost dead.Which is irrelevant to my point, goku is severely Kennedy and almost dead because of the time 4 kaioken
The manga says is because Vegeta speed trought., that makes it dubious if that was because of vegeta's speed or his own weakened state
While fighting a opponent like Vegeta? And even then, Vegeta can make the sand dissapear anyway.Gaara can make kilometers of sand go into the air and make them come from all directions
I not assuming that he would allowed Vegeta to fly away, i assuming that he would't be able to stop him anyway, because Vegeta can dissipate the sand, and fly upwards super fast., also that assumes that gaara would allow vegeta to fly away that easily in the first place
If Vegeta Blast the desert, the explosion is gonna decimate most of the sand, send them to the sides, and sone of them Will Go upwards, saying that It would make more is kinda wrong.Making it smaller doesn't make gaara impossibilitated to use the sand, that wouldn't accomplish much, if vegeta tries to blast the desert like you claimed he would, that would just make more sand for gaara to use
Ki Blast is also the attack like Balls or energy too, and nothing in the wiki is saying that is Just the beams.With ki blasts, which are the beams i talked about
I typed wrong, i meant to say another technique.Can you prove this? Also you say that he can't just to say that he can
But that's How in Dragon Ball Works trought.We don't scale things like that with power dude, nappa has a feat for that and vegeta does not, he has shown a technique that does that, vegeta has not, we can't scale without proof
I not saying vegeta can use the same technique than Nappa, i just saying he can do the same range of explosion since he is stronger. Nappa Volcanic Esplosion don't nescessary make the city explode, Nappa could do the same attack and cause a mountain to be destroyed too, is just him controling his Power.Again, we don't scale range like that, nor do we assume that one char can use a technique of another just because he is stronger
That doesn't mean that it is by the same ammount, pretty sure we don't accept as suchYeah power and speed are relative especially in this part of db
Note: It has been stated numerous times across various sources in the series that a larger ki means greater statistics -- statistics such as strength[1] and overall power[2], speed[3], aerial capabilities[4], destructive capacity[4], and defense[4].
while he was severely weakned and almost dead from using the kaioken times 3 and then even beyond his limits with times 4Also it mentions Vegeta gained a speed increase where Goku mentioned a hypothetical boost he couldn’t do wouldn’t be enough
Vegeta didn't got hit with the spirit bomb until after he detransformed from oozaruand atp Vegeta had been badly damaged by the spirit bomb
he lost a bit of his ki, not too much of it, goku was in a far worst situation, unless you can prove that they are both similarly weakenedand lost a lot of his ki due
i am not ignoring it, it just doesn't matter for this topicto making the power ball idk why you keep ignoring the note on the db page
Yeah, so? That doesn't say that it is by the same ammount, of course that if the thing that gives the stats improve so does the stats, but unless it is said to be by the same ammount, we simply do not assume that it does, in fact the only reason we accept kaioken as being multiplication by all stats is being it is directly said to multiply all statsalso there’s a statement in namek where he mentions due to his power increasing his speed also increased
yes it does, he is talking about his current situation and how even if he uses in that time he wouldn't be able to do the spirit bombI don't see how that matters, since Goku assessment don't take in consideration his weaknend state in consideration.
yeah, in that situation where goku is weakenedHe can't use Kaioken 5 times not even in normal state, but If he could, Vegeta still would be faster.
we don't have an accepted value to how mich he got fasterI trought that is don't accepted being this fast in a 10x amp, the page still says he got faster attack speed in his great ape form, the 5x speed amp is a rought estimative.
yes he is, that is what kaio sama said that would happen if he used beyond kaioken 2xExageration here, like yes his body is demaged, but he not almost dead.
vegeta speed in comparison to a severely weakened goku, we don't know if vegeta is faster there because of his own speed or if it is because goku is weakened tremendoslyThe manga says is because Vegeta speed trought.
Any reason as to why not?While fighting a opponent like Vegeta?
he does not have enough ap advantage to do thatAnd even then, Vegeta can make the sand dissapear anyway.
gaara is faster and has too much sand for vegeta do dissipate, and even if he does disipate gaara can just control it again, to disipate makes nothing much useful for vegetaI not assuming that he would allowed Vegeta to fly away, i assuming that he would't be able to stop him anyway, because Vegeta can dissipate the sand, and fly upwards super fast.
and then create more due to pulverizing the groundIf Vegeta Blast the desert, the explosion is gonna decimate most of the sand
where gaara can control again very easilysend them to the sides, and sone of them Will Go upwards
do you know how pulverization works?, saying that It would make more is kinda wrong.
semantics, the name doesn't matter, beam, ball energy my point changes in nothingKi Blast is also the attack like Balls or energy too, and nothing in the wiki is saying that is Just the beams.
you can't use the logic of power to range, that doesn't work like thatI typed wrong, i meant to say another technique.
Anyway, this is Basic powerscaling.
A person can destroy the moon
B person defeat A person
B person can also destroy the moon.
Nappa is stronger than Picollo who can destroy the moon, so the city level range is the Basic of what he can do, he can probally do a attack more powerfull.
no it isn't, idk where you got that fromBut that's How in Dragon Ball Works trought.
nappa does that with a speciphic technique, unless vegeta can do the same one nappa does we can't assume that he canI not saying vegeta can use the same technique than Nappa, i just saying he can do the same range of explosion since he is stronger.
evidence for this? Has that shown the range to do that in the manga?Nappa Volcanic Esplosion don't nescessary make the city explode, Nappa could do the same attack and cause a mountain to be destroyed too, is just him controling his Power.
more powerfull=/=more rangeVegeta is stronger than him, so he can make a more powerfull attack with other technique of his.
A couple of meters while gaara is 500meters awayAnd Vegeta Super Explosive Wave have a Very long renge anyway.
Because that is how chackra works in naruto
We do if an explicit multiplier is given like for SSJThat doesn't mean that it is by the same ammount, pretty sure we don't accept as such
while he was severely weakned and almost dead from using the kaioken times 3 and then even beyond his limits with times 4
Vegeta didn't got hit with the spirit bomb until after he detransformed from oozaru
he lost a bit of his ki, not too much of it, goku was in a far worst situation, unless you can prove that they are both similarly weakened
i am not ignoring it, it just doesn't matter for this topic
Yeah, so? That doesn't say that it is by the same ammount, of course that if the thing that gives the stats improve so does the stats, but unless it is said to be by the same ammount, we simply do not assume that it does, in fact the only reason we accept kaioken as being multiplication by all stats is being it is directly said to multiply all stats
yes it does, he is talking about his current situation and how even if he uses in that time he wouldn't be able to do the spirit bomb
yeah, in that situation where goku is weakened
we don't have an accepted value to how mich he got faster
yes he is, that is what kaio sama said that would happen if he used beyond kaioken 2x
vegeta speed in comparison to a severely weakened goku, we don't know if vegeta is faster there because of his own speed or if it is because goku is weakened tremendosly
Any reason as to why not?
he does not have enough ap advantage to do that
gaara is faster and has too much sand for vegeta do dissipate, and even if he does disipate gaara can just control it again, to disipate makes nothing much useful for vegeta
and then create more due to pulverizing the ground
where gaara can control again very easily
do you know how pulverization works?
semantics, the name doesn't matter, beam, ball energy my point changes in nothing
you can't use the logic of power to range, that doesn't work like that
no it isn't, idk where you got that from
nappa does that with a speciphic technique, unless vegeta can do the same one nappa does we can't assume that he can
evidence for this? Has that shown the range to do that in the manga?
more powerfull=/=more range
A couple of meters while gaara is 500meters away
The only reason we do that for ssj1 is because of it scaling to kaioken via freeza percentage thingy, oozaru has not same luxuryWe do if an explicit multiplier is given like for SSJ
Vegeta was hit by something barely stronger than himself and made a ball that made him only a bit weaker, goku was destroying his own body with kaioken times 3 while also almost dying and then went beyond with times 4, goku was way worst then vegeta thereSame with Vegeta
Oh okay, well, being hit by something 1.5 times stronger than you is not that much of a loss, kaioken times 3 matched his galick gun, so times 4 being only 1.5 times makes him being hit by it not that much impressiveI meant getting hit by the x4 kamehameha mb
Not by much, only a "bit"Goku tells us Vegeta’s power dropped when he made the ki ball and is surprised from the drop of power I mean the proof is there Vegeta was heavily injured
Speed is important, but the note itself is not useful since it is just saying the obvious, if you gain morr ki = you are faster then before, which is not the tooic of contention hereit is speed is important for this topic
Nope, i saw the crt, the speed being multiplied was not a proposal thereWe literally do the Oozaru multiplier was accepted in the Bojack and Oozaru crt you’re just nitpicking the way it was wrote
Yes i do, those who are 5-B physically can augment their bodies with their chackra like that, gaara can't even tho he has that much chackra, that is more of a skill thing than anything else, like, he has 5-B chackra, hence why the sand is that strongwhat sort of answer is this? There are those who are 5-B physically so you can’t just type this to me and expect me to just go along. Lmfao.
Nope, the scouter didn't pick up gohan because he was not using his ki at all until that moment, here gaara is, it isn't the same situation period, also the scouter detects stuff that is not a body in the first place so, even more not comparableIn Dragonball if you don’t use Ki to enhance your body you’re weak to a scouter. Happened to characters like kid Gohan so this is the same case with Gaara period.
Here he decided to do so since vegeta killed a bunch of his jonin and is trying to invade his village, read the op, also he would detect the 5-B energy coming from gaara as i have explainedGaraa isn’t the type of person to attack first and ask questions later so Vegeta is likely to just use Dirty Fireworks on him.
yes it does, he is talking about his current situation and how even if he uses in that time he wouldn't be able to do the spirit bomb
Can you show me a scan that Goku is specifically talking about his weaknend state?yeah, in that situation where goku is weakened
But we have a Scan that potentially show how much faster he could gotten. I think is good enough to considere.we don't have an accepted value to how mich he got faster
Only If we have a statement about if is because Goku weaknend state.vegeta speed in comparison to a severely weakened goku, we don't know if vegeta is faster there because of his own speed or if it is because goku is weakened tremendosly
He does, but okay.he does not have enough ap advantage to do that
Ah Fine, Vegeta is a opponent that can spam Ki Blast, each one being able to one shot Gaara and dissipate his shields, while have a great mobility in the Air, making his attacks hard to connects already, and his attacks not gonna do much demage because of the AP difference.Any reason as to why not?
Debatablegaara is faster
Again, in the Air he not gonna Control that much sand.has too much sand for vegeta do dissipate,
And vegeta Just gonna dissipate again.and even if he does disipate gaara can just control it again,
Unless Gaara can Control Dust, no.and then create more due to pulverizing the ground
Not really sure How that debunked my point of not being that much sand aftewards. A few Sands particles Will be send to the Air, is not that much.where gaara can control again very easily
Yes, don't turn things into Sands, but into dust.do you know how pulverization works?
I was talking about the range of the explosion he can make.semantics, the name doesn't matter, beam, ball energy my point changes in nothing
That don't make anu sense, a Guy can destroy the moon meaning that the range of explosion he can do is Moon size too, is logic here.you can't use the logic of power to range, that doesn't work like that
Well, is logicno it isn't, idk where you got that from
Unless you saying that Nappa technique that destroyed a city is because have a special ability to It, and not because Nappa is that powerfull, that don't really matter.nappa does that with a speciphic technique, unless vegeta can do the same one nappa does we can't assume that he can
Considering that he use other attacks, and don't cause this range of explosion, i pretty sure is okay to aassume that is he controling his Power, not the technique property of destroying a city.evidence for this? Has that shown the range to do that in the manga?
Makes more sense considering How Dragon Ball Works.more powerfull=/=more range
Picollo can also do the same technique, and cause a explosion that cover a entire Island.A couple of meters while gaara is 500meters away
Forgot about this, can you show Scan?yes he is, that is what kaio sama said that would happen if he used beyond kaioken 2x
Or outspeeding and killing him before he goes Oozaru.Iirc Gaara’s wincon is grabbing a hold of Vegeta and strangling him with stand
Vegeta at 2x speed is not faster than Gaara lolThe speed argument is kinda redunt too, even If you downplay and says that is just a 2x speed amp, Vegeta still would be faster here.
According with the OP, If the numbers are correct, yes he would.Speed: FTL (Equal to or faster than Six Paths Teen Naruto, calculated at 2.11c)
Speed: FTL (Scales to Kaio-Ken x3 Goku, who is At Least 1.62c)
Gaara blocked Fused Momoshiki, who is Momoshiki and Kinshiki combined. Both of them are > Kaguya > Juubidara > Teen NarutoAccording with the OP, If the numbers are correct, yes he would.
He is talking about his current situation about him not being able to do the spirit bomb, why would he be talking a previous moment and not his current predicament?Can you show me a scan that Goku is specifically talking about his weaknend state?
Well, i have given reason to doubt that, but we are discussing it right now so, i guess we can drop this point until we reach an agreement on the other pointBut we have a Scan that potentially show how much faster he could gotten. I think is good enough to considere.
read aboveOnly If we have a statement about if is because Goku weaknend state.
Less then 5x ap advantage is not that big of a gapHe does, but okay.
and gaara can spam as much with his sandAh Fine, Vegeta is a opponent that can spam Ki Blast, each one being able to one shot Gaara and dissipate his shields
the sand is as mobile as vegeta, so nowhile have a great mobility in the Air, making his attacks hard to connects already
lifting strenght, he can easily pin and restrain vegeta, and his attacks not gonna do much demage because of the AP difference.
proof of this?Gaara is gonna have a hard time concentrating while moving kilomets of sand with him.
not reallyDebatable
See the deidara fight, he can do it, he specially would if vegeta showed himself as a threatAgain, in the Air he not gonna Control that much sand.
And then it will be reformed again, cicles repeats until vegeta runs out of staminaAnd vegeta Just gonna dissipate again.
Guess what sand isUnless Gaara can Control Dust, no.
Numerous will if the explosion is big enough, the aftermath will leave much sand in the ground alsoNot really sure How that debunked my point of not being that much sand aftewards. A few Sands particles Will be send to the Air, is not that much.
Both are the same thingYes, don't turn things into Sands, but into dust.
still doesn't change my pointI was talking about the range of the explosion he can make.
not really no, gaara has 5-B ap and he doesn't have planetary range, range feats are separated from ap featsThat don't make anu sense, a Guy can destroy the moon meaning that the range of explosion he can do is Moon size too, is logic here.
Not really very logical if you ask meWell, is logic
It is a spechipic technique that nappa used, him being powerful or not doesn't change thatUnless you saying that Nappa technique that destroyed a city is because have a special ability to It, and not because Nappa is that powerfull, that don't really matter.
DC=/=AP, that is not a good comparisonConsidering that he use other attacks, and don't cause this range of explosion, i pretty sure is okay to aassume that is he controling his Power, not the technique property of destroying a city.
manga is the only thing that matters here
AP=/DCHe also is 5-B here, so saying he don't have the attack potency the range to do so without any of technique is absurd.
prove that that is how db worksMakes more sense considering How Dragon Ball Works.
Same argument i made for nappa works for piccolo herePicollo can also do the same technique, and cause a explosion that cover a entire Island.
Grovel
When i get to my pc i will sendForgot about this, can you show Scan?
Sure it upscales Kaioken x20 but that’s like a 2.5x increase there’s no proof it’s a 50x speed amp and Frieza was injured by spirit bomb at that point with the logic you’re using make it invalidThe only reason we do that for ssj1 is because of it scaling to kaioken via freeza percentage thingy, oozaru has not same luxury
Vegeta was hit by something barely stronger than himself and made a ball that made him only a bit weaker, goku was destroying his own body with kaioken times 3 while also almost dying and then went beyond with times 4, goku was way worst then vegeta there
Oh okay, well, being hit by something 1.5 times stronger than you is not that much of a loss, kaioken times 3 matched his galick gun, so times 4 being only 1.5 times makes him being hit by it not that much impressive
Not by much, only a "bit"
And He was not much injured tbh
Speed is important, but the note itself is not useful since it is just saying the obvious, if you gain morr ki = you are faster then before, which is not the tooic of contention here
Nope, i saw the crt, the speed being multiplied was not a proposal there
Yes i do, those who are 5-B physically can augment their bodies with their chackra like that, gaara can't even tho he has that much chackra, that is more of a skill thing than anything else, like, he has 5-B chackra, hence why the sand is that strong
Nope, the scouter didn't pick up gohan because he was not using his ki at all until that moment, here gaara is, it isn't the same situation period, also the scouter detects stuff that is not a body in the first place so, even more not comparable
Here he decided to do so since vegeta killed a bunch of his jonin and is trying to invade his village, read the op, also he would detect the 5-B energy coming from gaara as i have explained
Pretty sure speed can be a factor but it can’t be a major factor for a win to be applied and is that something Gaara does Ic?Or outspeeding and killing him before he goes Oozaru.
Or easily crushing his limbs with higher LS.
He broke Rock Lee's limbs. Or course, he was meaner back then, but he would be angry at Vegeta for killing people he liked.Pretty sure speed can be a factor but it can’t be a major factor for a win to be applied and is that something Gaara does Ic?
OH, AND HE CRUSHED DEIDARA'S ARMHe broke Rock Lee's limbs. Or course, he was meaner back then, but he would be angry at Vegeta for killing people he liked.
That is a discussion for another time, but the key point is the percentage that freeza gave, also he just got up after that, he was injured, but not by that muchSure it upscales Kaioken x20 but that’s like a 2.5x increase there’s no proof it’s a 50x speed amp and Frieza was injured by spirit bomb at that point with the logic you’re using make it invalid
He was not lol, galick gun matched the times 3 kamehameha and then got overpowered by time 4 kamehameha, aka a 1.5 differenceWdym only a little stronger than himself it was way stronger than himself his attack just immediately got overpowered and he took the blunt of the force both of them were badly bruised and on the verge of death and out of stamina and the power of it doenst mean anything he was badly hurt from it still
How is that semantica? He specifically says that was only for a bitSemantics tbh
we don't do stuff like that, also vegeta says that his "power" would be 10 times greatet, not his kiI’m saying if you get a multiplier on your ki boost then yes we have a number we can use
I read it, what about it?Check the op of the crt
I meant blitzing people and killing them icHe broke Rock Lee's limbs. Or course, he was meaner back then, but he would be angry at Vegeta for killing people he liked.
yeah I remember thatOH, AND HE CRUSHED DEIDARA'S ARM
I was just explaining the flaws in your logic and he was bruised up you could see it visuallyThat is a discussion for another time, but the key point is the percentage that freeza gave, also he just got up after that, he was injured, but not by that much
He was not lol, galick gun matched the times 3 kamehameha and then got overpowered by time 4 kamehameha, aka a 1.5 difference
How is that semantica? He specifically says that was only for a bit
we don't do stuff like that, also vegeta says that his "power" would be 10 times greatet, not his ki
I read it, what about it?
I didn't say blitzing, just outspeeding. And Gaara is the type to finish things quickly.I meant blitzing people and killing them ic
He was injured yes, but not by much, goku was still hopeless withtout ssj1 at the timeI was just explaining the flaws in your logic and he was bruised up you could see it visually
strawman, i never said that he wasn't injured, he just wasn't by muchHe was injured can you prove he wasn’t injured
scan?he was literally battered up with blood on his body from the attack
goku was not shocked at thr drop, he was confused as to why vegeta would waste energy on a small ball of energyVegeta says “My power may drop a bit” and Goku is shocked from how much his power dropped from the power ball may just means a possibility
Dude can you link the crt? Pretty sure that wasn't what got that accepted, even then, again, for power and not speedWe literally do KK x5 is what we used for justification in the crt it got accepted
Oozaru is specifically a power growth, that is what it is said by vegetaFrieza kk x20 is the justification we used for SSJ’s multiplier technically Oozaru is more consistent here
Not even close, vegeta specifies his power being multiplied, not all stats like kaioken doesThat the logic for the 2 is fundamentally the same
Well, he saying like even If he could use Kaioken times 5, which he can't because he is weak, he would't be able to dodge Vegeta attacks. Since he can't use in his weak state, he is talking about If he is in good conditions.He is talking about his current situation about him not being able to do the spirit bomb, why would he be talking a previous moment and not his current predicament?
Ok then, we come back to this later.Well, i have given reason to doubt that, but we are discussing it right now so, i guess we can drop this point until we reach an agreement on the other point
Is still a 4x gap trought, i not saying he can destroy his shields complety, i saying that a barragem of attacks in that Level could.Less then 5x ap advantage is not that big of a gap
Bring the entire sand to block the explosion of his village, that would't be happening here since this is a 1v1.See the deidara fight, he can do it, he specially would if vegeta showed himself as a threat
Not before he one shot Gaara, he just need to dissipate the sand a few times and got a good hit.And then it will be reformed again, cicles repeats until vegeta runs out of stamina
Guess what sand is
They not, no, is super diference.Both are the same thing
I don't think It really matters, since his sand is not as strong as Vegeta attacks.and gaara can spam as much with his sand
Why?the sand is as mobile as vegeta, so no
He don't need to concetrate to move sand?proof of this?
I honestly don't remember what the original point was, and i not going back tmin the Thread to read.still doesn't change my point
Makes sense, but the Guy can destroy the moon here, so his range of explosion and Ap are the same then.not really no, gaara has 5-B ap and he doesn't have planetary range, range feats are separated from ap feats
You gonna have to proof that.It is a spechipic technique that nappa used, him being powerful or not doesn't change that
But we can use other media tô illustrate right?manga is the only thing that matters here
If a Guy is more powerfull than you, he can also make a bigger explosion, do i really need a Scan? Tch.prove that that is how db works
Ins't you argument that since Vegeta can't do the same technique than Nappa, he don't have the range of attack? Picollo and Vegeta have the same technique, Super Explosive Wave, so both can do the same explosion. So Vegeta can do a explosion large enought to hit Gaara.Same argument i made for nappa works for piccolo here
Okay then by your logic we can’t quantify the speed for SSJ it should be x20 or just none because Ssj is stated to increase your battle power and you’re acting like it’s quantifiable to see how much Friezas power droppedHe was injured yes, but not by much, goku was still hopeless withtout ssj1 at the time
strawman, i never said that he wasn't injured, he just wasn't by much
scan?
goku was not shocked at thr drop, he was confused as to why vegeta would waste energy on a small ball of energy
Dude can you link the crt? Pretty sure that wasn't what got that accepted, even then, again, for power and not speed
Oozaru is specifically a power growth, that is what it is said by vegeta
Not even close, vegeta specifies his power being multiplied, not all stats like kaioken does
Eh, SSJ was shown to be faster than 100% Frieza, and Frieza's percentages are shown to be relative to speed, considering 50% Frieza > KKx20 Goku.Okay then by your logic we can’t quantify the speed for SSJ it should be x20 or just none because Ssj is stated to increase your battle power and you’re acting like it’s quantifiable to see how much Friezas power dropped
My apologies if you didn’t say that but it was what I thought was implied and he was visually pretty injured
You legit sent a scan of Vegeta bleeding from his mouth but I’ll just send it
He was shocked on his power dropping because he was confused what he was planning to do
It’s the Oozaru and Bojack crt the op uses Goku comparing a hypothetical KKx5 not helping at all against Vegeta as justification
He said it multiples your power same with SSJ if your ki is multiplied it applies to the things what a larger ki indicates
I was referring to SSJ not Kaioken I never mentioned Kaioken and Oozaru using the same logic
Yeah 50% frieza got injured and then killed Krillin and Goku turns Ssj and frieza goes into 100% and still gets demolished though technically he’d still be weaker since he was weakenedEh, SSJ was shown to be faster than 100% Frieza, and Frieza's percentages are shown to be relative to speed, considering 50% Frieza > KKx20 Goku.
When did he specified that for you to reach that conclusion? Goku can't use times 5 period, times 4 already almost killed him, imagine what 5 would doWell, he saying like even If he could use Kaioken times 5, which he can't because he is weak, he would't be able to dodge Vegeta attacks. Since he can't use in his weak state, he is talking about If he is in good conditions.
Good thing we agreed on somethingOk then, we come back to this later.
Well if it doesn't destroy completely he can just remake then immediatly afterIs still a 4x gap trought, i not saying he can destroy his shields complety, i saying that a barragem of attacks in that Level could.
unless Gaara as show bê able to defend against multiples attacks bigger than his own Ap.
Vegeta is threatening to destroy his village as well here, read the OPBring the entire sand to block the explosion of his village, that would't be happening here since this is a 1v1.
Not when they are more then 500 meters apart and gaara is constantly attacking him with sand from multiple directionsNot before he one shot Gaara, he just need to dissipate the sand a few times and got a good hit.
He can easily do this.
They are the same, sand is nothing more than various particles mashed together, dust is just these particles, so a great ammount of them constitutes what sand is for gaara to control as shown in the battle against kimimaroThey not, no, is super diference.
Numbers matter a lot mote than you would thinkI don't think It really matters, since his sand is not as strong as Vegeta attacks.
Both fly in the same way and the sand can shapeshift in various forms while at it, it is very agileWhy?
Not really noHe don't need to concetrate to move sand?
OkI honestly don't remember what the original point was, and i not going back tmin the Thread to read.
He has the attack potency to damage people on that level, but as i said AP=/=DCMakes sense, but the Guy can destroy the moon here, so his range of explosion and Ap are the same then.
You are the one affirming things, the burden of proof is on youYou gonna have to proof that.
Nah not reallyBut we can use other media tô illustrate right?
Yeah no, if a guy is more powerful then you then he is stronger, any other stat like range wouldn't scale without reasonIf a Guy is more powerfull than you, he can also make a bigger explosion, do i really need a Scan? Tch.
Where did you get that they are the same technique?Ins't you argument that since Vegeta can't do the same technique than Nappa, he don't have the range of attack? Picollo and Vegeta have the same technique, Super Explosive Wave, so both can do the same explosion. So Vegeta can do a explosion large enought to hit Gaara.
Gaara would't be that Far away anyway, since Vegeta can get closer.
Fair enoughBtw, i gonna wait for you to do the wincons for the two.
So Will not respond.
The ssj1 is superior to kaioken 20x which multiplies all stats the same wayOkay then by your logic we can’t quantify the speed for SSJ it should be x20 or just none because Ssj is stated to increase your battle power and you’re acting like it’s quantifiable to see how much Friezas power dropped
It is fine dude, he was injured sure, but not by much, goku was almost deadMy apologies if you didn’t say that but it was what I thought was implied and he was visually pretty injured
Read aboveYou legit sent a scan of Vegeta bleeding from his mouth but I’ll just send it
He was shocked on why would vegeta lower his power at all just to do a weak ki blast, goku never specifies how much power vegeta lost, not if it was too muchHe was shocked on his power dropping because he was confused what he was planning to do
Yeah for power, not speed lolIt’s the Oozaru and Bojack crt the op uses Goku comparing a hypothetical KKx5 not helping at all against Vegeta as justification
He specified power, if it wasn't for the kaioken scaling ssj1 would not be 50x speed, so moot pointHe said it multiples your power same with SSJ if your ki is multiplied it applies to the things what a larger ki indicates
Oh ok then sorry for the mistakeI was referring to SSJ not Kaioken I never mentioned Kaioken and Oozaru using the same logic
Goku was also injuredYeah 50% frieza got injured and then killed Krillin and Goku turns Ssj and frieza goes into 100% and still gets demolished though technically he’d still be weaker since he was weakened