Vegeta (Saiyan Saga) VS Gaara (New Era) (14-11-0) (GRACE)

[Da3ggman]

Leaning towards Vegeta ngl

 

[TheGodOfICE777]

When did he specified that for you to reach that conclusion? Goku can't use times 5 period, times 4 already almost killed him, imagine what 5 would do


Good thing we agreed on something


Well if it doesn't destroy completely he can just remake then immediatly after


Vegeta is threatening to destroy his village as well here, read the OP


Not when they are more then 500 meters apart and gaara is constantly attacking him with sand from multiple directions


They are the same, sand is nothing more than various particles mashed together, dust is just these particles, so a great ammount of them constitutes what sand is for gaara to control as shown in the battle against kimimaro


Numbers matter a lot mote than you would think


Both fly in the same way and the sand can shapeshift in various forms while at it, it is very agile


Not really no


Ok


He has the attack potency to damage people on that level, but as i said AP=/=DC


You are the one affirming things, the burden of proof is on you


Nah not really


Yeah no, if a guy is more powerful then you then he is stronger, any other stat like range wouldn't scale without reason


Where did you get that they are the same technique?


Fair enough


The ssj1 is superior to kaioken 20x which multiplies all stats the same way


It is fine dude, he was injured sure, but not by much, goku was almost dead


Read above


He was shocked on why would vegeta lower his power at all just to do a weak ki blast, goku never specifies how much power vegeta lost, not if it was too much


Yeah for power, not speed lol


He specified power, if it wasn't for the kaioken scaling ssj1 would not be 50x speed, so moot point


Oh ok then sorry for the mistake
Well the ssj1 Only scales like for scaling to the 20x kaioken so, not really much changes for tje point

Oozaru is superior to a hypothetical KKx5 which multiplies all stats in the same way

Can you send a scan of Vegeta and Goku both injured because they’re both tired and bruised up though injuries aren’t quantifiable so this is kinda pointless but it’s wtv

Send injuries of both people

No what? Goku never implied or thought it was a ki blast he just noticed Vegetas power dropped after making the attack you would have to prove he thought his power dropped from a ki blast

Oozaru is superior to KKx5 I feel like I’m repeating myself here now

If it wasn’t for Goku’s statement that even with Kaioken x5 he would still be slower and weaker than Vegeta it would’ve been harder to get Oozaru multiplier accepted

I’m showing you how it’s fundamentally similar KKx5 is used for Oozaru’s justification Kkx20 is used for SSJ’s justification
This feels like an argument from repetition and it’s dumb arguing something already accepted

 

[Naeblis495]

If Vegeta didn't have Dirty Firework, that would be an easy Gaara W.
But he does so...Voting Vegeta.

 

[LephyrTheRevanchist]

btw, just want to note, if both characters received equal votes, match can be added as inconclusive when grace ends

 

[TheGodOfICE777]

btw, just want to note, if both characters received equal votes, match can be added as inconclusive when grace ends

Technically 2 additional votes haven’t been added so its 10-8-0

 

[Omegabronic]

Oozaru is superior to a hypothetical KKx5 which multiplies all stats in the same way

In power yes, but we never got the comparison to speed

Can you send a scan of Vegeta and Goku both injured because they’re both tired and bruised up though injuries aren’t quantifiable so this is kinda pointless but it’s wtv

It is from a king kai statement, i will send the scan when i get home

Send injuries of both people

Sure, just wait a few minutes

No what? Goku never implied or thought it was a ki blast he just noticed Vegetas power dropped after making the attack you would have to prove he thought his power dropped from a ki blast

Ki blast or whatever he thought it was changes nothing on my point really

Oozaru is superior to KKx5 I feel like I’m repeating myself here now

Yeah, in power, but we never got any good comparison in speed also like how we did with freeza

If it wasn’t for Goku’s statement that even with Kaioken x5 he would still be slower and weaker than Vegeta it would’ve been harder to get Oozaru multiplier accepted

no it wouldn't, it is blatantly stated

I’m showing you how it’s fundamentally similar KKx5 is used for Oozaru’s justification Kkx20 is used for SSJ’s justification
This feels like an argument from repetition and it’s dumb arguing something already accepted

It is accepted the power multiplier, not the speed multiplier

 

[Omegabronic]

If Vegeta didn't have Dirty Firework, that would be an easy Gaara W.
But he does so...Voting Vegeta.

Does it have enough range for him to use from 500 meters away?

 

[Omegabronic]

btw, just want to note, if both characters received equal votes, match can be added as inconclusive when grace ends

Acctually if a conclusion has not been reached and an extenwive discussion about the powers of the chars have been made, tecnically we can add it as incon, at least, that is how i understood from the rules

 

[Omegabronic]

"

• If both sides have equivalent posts with constructive arguments, the thread shall be deemed inconclusive.
  • Inconclusive matches, in which the opposing parties are incapable of defeating each other, should only added to profiles if they had a notable debate. A debate is considered notable, in this context, if it features a lengthy debate over an aspect not directly listed on profile.
    • Examples of such are standard tactics (if not listed), ability mechanics and (unlisted) potency, interaction between abilities, weaknesses, verse equalization, potential methods to circumvent resistances and immortalities, potential learning or growth they could achieve in the timeframe of the fight, whether they could escape long enough for prep based abilities to come into play, etc."

I have no idea how grace period works on inconclussive resulta tho

 

[TheGodOfICE777]

In power yes, but we never got the comparison to speed


It is from a king kai statement, i will send the scan when i get home


Sure, just wait a few minutes


Ki blast or whatever he thought it was changes nothing on my point really


Yeah, in power, but we never got any good comparison in speed also like how we did with freeza


no it wouldn't, it is blatantly stated


It is accepted the power multiplier, not the speed multiplier

Bro did you not read the scan? Goku mentions Vegeta being extremely fast and notes that even with Kaioken x5 it wouldn’t make a difference

ok that’s fine

Again never implied or stated that he thought it was a ki blast

Feel like I’m repeating myself here but
Goku mentions Vegeta being extremely fast and notes that even with Kaioken x5 it wouldn’t make a difference

So yes there is the speed comparison you’re looking for

It was used as justification in the op of the accepted crt and I can’t believe how many times I have to repeat this Goku mentions Vegeta being extremely fast and notes that even with Kaioken x5 it wouldn’t make a difference this is similar to Goku holding his own with Frieza’s speed in kkx20 but then being faster than Frieza with Ssj you could argue Oozaru is more easier to prove since it’s only a 2x difference with SSJ being a 2.5x difference

 

[Fezzih_007]

Bro did you not read the scan? Goku mentions Vegeta being extremely fast and notes that even with Kaioken x5 it wouldn’t make a difference

ok that’s fine

Again never implied or stated that he thought it was a ki blast

Feel like I’m repeating myself here but
Goku mentions Vegeta being extremely fast and notes that even with Kaioken x5 it wouldn’t make a difference

So yes there is the speed comparison you’re looking for

It was used as justification in the op of the accepted crt and I can’t believe how many times I have to repeat this Goku mentions Vegeta being extremely fast and notes that even with Kaioken x5 it wouldn’t make a difference this is similar to Goku holding his own with Frieza’s speed in kkx20 but then being faster than Frieza with Ssj you could argue Oozaru is more easier to prove since it’s only a 2x difference with SSJ being a 2.5x difference

I think he just gonna answer with the weaknend state argument again.

 

[TheGodOfICE777]

Bro did you not read the scan? Goku mentions Vegeta being extremely fast and notes that even with Kaioken x5 it wouldn’t make a difference

I think he just gonna answer with the weaknend state argument again.

Both are weakened and heavily injured same with frieza and Goku on namek it’s fundamentally the same logic its just argument via repetition I don’t expect anything less plus this is already accepted on the crt the multiplier was accepted so realistically we shouldn’t even be discussing this rn and just the win cons and what’s more likely to happen

 

[Fezzih_007]

Yeah, i just gonna wait someone to laid down all the wincons, because i don't watch naruto for a longer, and barely remember Gaara fights.

 

[Omegabronic]

Bro did you not read the scan? Goku mentions Vegeta being extremely fast and notes that even with Kaioken x5 it wouldn’t make a difference

i think i already answered that, goku is near dead in that state, vegeta is far better than him

ok that’s fine

huh, i dunno if i am allowed to send the scans of my source here on the site, what do i do?

Again never implied or stated that he thought it was a ki blast

semantics much, he thinking that it was a ki blast or whatever else doesn't change my point in the slightest

Feel like I’m repeating myself here but
Goku mentions Vegeta being extremely fast and notes that even with Kaioken x5 it wouldn’t make a difference

while he was severely weakened and screaming in pain just from using times 4 for one moment, if he used times 5 he would probably be even worse at such weakened state that even if it was slightly faster it wouldn't make a difference, besides vegeta is already comparable to times 3, times 5 wouldn't make much a difference regardless

So yes there is the speed comparison you’re looking for

It was used as justification in the op of the accepted crt

that was proposing a power multiplier and not a overall multiplier

and I can’t believe how many times I have to repeat this Goku mentions Vegeta being extremely fast and notes that even with Kaioken x5 it wouldn’t make a difference

idk how many times will i have to repeat, goku was extremely weakened, he couldn't handle kaioken even in times 4, he wouldn't be able to even move far enough to even make a difference, specially in such weakened state of his body in comparison to vegeta who was far better than him

this is similar to Goku holding his own with Frieza’s speed in kkx20 but then being faster than Frieza with Ssj you could argue Oozaru is more easier to prove since it’s only a 2x difference with SSJ being a 2.5x difference

it is not the same situation at all, freeza was relatively fine, while injured, and goku was in a far worst case than him, like really worst, was beaten up and was partially hit by the spirit bomb as well, that serves as further proof for ssj1 since he was far weakened and still beated freeza's ass

 

[Omegabronic]

Gaara wincons:
+absurd stamina advantage
+due to starting distance and vegeta already proven to be a major threat to his village as specified by the op would start taking the fight seriosly and try to stop vegeta quikcly with his sand lifting strength advantage, which would allow him to end vegeta in numerous ways
+substitution jutsu to scape from vegeta's blows even if he did hit him
+can overun vegeta with numerous massive sand tsunamis that can be several kilometers long
+up with point above since they are in the desert he would have almost unlimited suply of ammo to trow at vegeta, with the sand being able to constantly reform even if vegeta disipates it with him being able to trow massive ammounts of kilometers of sand rather easily
+can also seal vegeta if needed
+can also just make numerous sand clones to just do everything listed above now with massive quantity

Vegeta wincons:
+hitting gaara once
+5x ap advantage over the sand with oozaru, just to note that the ap advantage is not big enough for him to be able to effortlesly destroy gaara's sand
+can potentially use Dirty Fireworks to kill gaara if he manages to get close enough, altho it is to note that he usually doesn't use this attack on people stronger or close to his level, which gaara is here and that would have been picked up by the scouter the moment gaara uses his chackra to control the 5-B sand

 

[Fezzih_007]

huh, i dunno if i am allowed to send the scans of my source here on the site, what do i do?

You can send the scans on your twitter, than link you twitter, like i did.

idk how many times will i have to repeat

Feel like I’m repeating myself here but

Also, you could stop repeting yourselfs, just answer the one point of question, don't need to adress the other if they are the same.

 

[Omegabronic]

You can send the scans on your twitter, than link you twitter, like i did.

i don't have a twitter tho

Also, you could stop repeting yourselfs, just answer the one point of question, don't need to adress the other if they are the same.

ok

 

[Omegabronic]

You can send the scans on your twitter, than link you twitter, like i did.

btw where did you got your scan from?

 

[Fezzih_007]

i don't have a twitter tho

Well... do you have a similar thing? I think you can link to facebook too.

 

[Fezzih_007]

btw where did you got your scan from?

From a site of manga.

 

[TheGodOfICE777]

i think i already answered that, goku is near dead in that state, vegeta is far better than him


huh, i dunno if i am allowed to send the scans of my source here on the site, what do i do?


semantics much, he thinking that it was a ki blast or whatever else doesn't change my point in the slightest


while he was severely weakened and screaming in pain just from using times 4 for one moment, if he used times 5 he would probably be even worse at such weakened state that even if it was slightly faster it wouldn't make a difference, besides vegeta is already comparable to times 3, times 5 wouldn't make much a difference regardless


that was proposing a power multiplier and not a overall multiplier


idk how many times will i have to repeat, goku was extremely weakened, he couldn't handle kaioken even in times 4, he wouldn't be able to even move far enough to even make a difference, specially in such weakened state of his body in comparison to vegeta who was far better than him


it is not the same situation at all, freeza was relatively fine, while injured, and goku was in a far worst case than him, like really worst, was beaten up and was partially hit by the spirit bomb as well, that serves as further proof for ssj1 since he was far weakened and still beated freeza's ass

He’s badly hurt and out of stamina but you’ve never sent scans showing me how close to death he was he was still able to continue fighting and was using Kaioken in short bursts at that state and Vegeta isn’t anywhere close to his peak either Vegeta was damaged by the x4 kamehameha and was getting clapped by x3 goku before that and then he was almost sent to space and came back injured and lowered his PL and used Oozaru and a heavily injured Vegeta made Goku say that statement

You can send scans as long as you don’t send the source of the scans or link the website

Semantics is when a statement youre like trying to find out what something really means but there’s nothing logically implying that

I’m still waiting for the scans that show Goku’s state being worse than Vegetas also Vegetas weaker than x3 Vegeta normally Vegeta is slightly stronger than x2 Kaioken and is weaker then x3 Kaioken goku but with Garlick gun can match those levels also Goku was still fighting Vegeta in Oozaru and was using Kaioken in bursts

It was proposing an overall multiplier the Kaioken x5 thing was used as justification and there they used it as if Goku was at his peak with Kaioken x5

They were both injured heavily Goku wasn’t hit by the spirit bomb if that’s what you were saying when you mentioned partially when Frieza was shown to live he kills Krillin and goes SSJ also you can’t quantify how much effect an injury has and I’ve been waiting for you to send the scans you said you’d send

Gaara wincons:
+absurd stamina advantage
+due to starting distance and vegeta already proven to be a major threat to his village as specified by the op would start taking the fight seriosly and try to stop vegeta quikcly with his sand lifting strength advantage, which would allow him to end vegeta in numerous ways
+substitution jutsu to scape from vegeta's blows even if he did hit him
+can overun vegeta with numerous massive sand tsunamis that can be several kilometers long
+up with point above since they are in the desert he would have almost unlimited suply of ammo to trow at vegeta, with the sand being able to constantly reform even if vegeta disipates it with him being able to trow massive ammounts of kilometers of sand rather easily
+can also seal vegeta if needed
+can also just make numerous sand clones to just do everything listed above now with massive quantity

Vegeta wincons:
+hitting gaara once
+5x ap advantage over the sand with oozaru, just to note that the ap advantage is not big enough for him to be able to effortlesly destroy gaara's sand
+can potentially use Dirty Fireworks to kill gaara if he manages to get close enough, altho it is to note that he usually doesn't use this attack on people stronger or close to his level, which gaara is here and that would have been picked up by the scouter the moment gaara uses his chackra to control the 5-B sand

A 4x difference is more than enough to destroy his sand barrier did you not see the Sasuke fight or deidara fight? If his sand barrier gets penetrated he’s vulnerable to get attacked which I would imagine Vegeta doing a powerful beam attack from his mouth in Oozaru and just finishing him off and penetrating his defense rather easily

 

[Fezzih_007]

Gaara wincons:
+absurd stamina advantage

The page just says he can fight for hours agaist high level opponets, each Vegeta can also do.
And while still better, considering how much demage vegeta can take without going down, and Gaara can't really do much demage, this only matter if the fight takes a long time.

+due to starting distance and vegeta already proven to be a major threat to his village as specified by the op would start taking the fight seriosly and try to stop vegeta quikcly with his sand lifting strength advantage, which would allow him to end vegeta in numerous ways

Wow, the op really just shot vegeta down here.

+substitution jutsu to scape from vegeta's blows even if he did hit him

How long is the range of the substituition jutsu? Because Vegeta have some AoE ki blasts range here.

How far his substition jutsu can take him?

+can overun vegeta with numerous massive sand tsunamis that can be several kilometers long

I mean, vegeta can blast the tsunami to escape, or fly away from the range of the attack.
And if he is engulfed, he can escape with Super Explosive Wave.

+up with point above since they are in the desert he would have almost unlimited suply of ammo to trow at vegeta, with the sand being able to constantly reform even if vegeta disipates it with him being able to trow massive ammounts of kilometers of sand rather easily

Wow, thast is a problem.

+can also seal vegeta if needed

Thas't also a problem, but how does that work exactly?

+can also just make numerous sand clones to just do everything listed above now with massive quantity

Can he? wow.

So i guess his chakra gonna get spend very fast.

+5x ap advantage over the sand with oozaru, just to note that the ap advantage is not big enough for him to be able to effortlesly destroy gaara's sand

Is just 4x trought.

+can potentially use Dirty Fireworks to kill gaara if he manages to get close enough, altho it is to note that he usually doesn't use this attack on people stronger or close to his level,

I really don't care for this argument since is boring.

which gaara is here and that would have been picked up by the scouter the moment gaara uses his chackra to control the 5-B sand

When you got the scan problem figured out, can you show me the scouter working like that? Picking up infused objects with energy?

 

[Omegabronic]

From a site of manga.

could you send the name of it on my wall?

He’s badly hurt and out of stamina but you’ve never sent scans showing me how close to death he was he was still able to continue fighting
and was using Kaioken in short bursts at that state and Vegeta isn’t anywhere close to his peak either Vegeta was damaged by the x4 kamehameha and was getting clapped by x3 goku before that

goku landed a few punches on vegeta with times 3 and he was more extremely frustated then seriosly damaged more than anything, and times 4 is only a 1.5 difference that made vegeta even more frustated and decided to use the oozaru

and then he was almost sent to space and came back injured and lowered his PL

by a very small margin mind you, why do you keep ignoring that?

and used Oozaru and a heavily injured Vegeta made Goku say that statement

shown me evidence that he was "heavily injured"

You can send scans as long as you don’t send the source of the scans or link the website

ok then:

using kaioken beyond 2 puts tremendous stress on his body, to the point where he might die if he doesn't concentrate fully on it

after using it only for a second of times 4 left him kneeling down gasping and trembling because of tiring and screaming in pain

in fact he was so much weakned that a casual slap from yajirobe was enough to make him scream in pain

with him saying that he was at the limit of what his body could do

with king kai saying that vegeta may even be too much for goku even without the great ape, with goku having "no strength left"
while vegeta?

he took the blast and easily got off of it after a while

and was far more frustated then anything, he doesn't even seen that much damage by the blast at all, which makes sense since the difference between the times 3 that he matched and the times 4 that hit him was only of 1.5 times, so nothing really major

it is very clear that goku is the one extremely injured and weakened by the time of the great ape transformation, with vegeta being barely injured in comparison to goku

Semantics is when a statement youre like trying to find out what something really means but there’s nothing logically implying that

dude see my original point again, it doesn't matter if goku thought that it was a ki blast or not, he was surprised and confused because of vegeta's explanation and batter right before transforming into the great ape, not because of his power dreceasing by much, which makes sense since vegeta just said that his power would only ever get lowered a by a "bit", nothing really major

I’m still waiting for the scans that show Goku’s state being worse than Vegetas

send up above

also Vegetas weaker than x3 Vegeta normally Vegeta is slightly stronger than x2 Kaioken and is weaker then x3 Kaioken goku but with Garlick gun can match those levels also Goku was still fighting Vegeta in Oozaru and was using Kaioken in bursts

yep, while on the limit of his body, for the vegeta stuff i covered above

It was proposing an overall multiplier the Kaioken x5 thing was used as justification and there they used it as if Goku was at his peak with Kaioken x5

i read the crt dude, that was merely a support point for the blatant 10x power multiplier that the manga stated, it really is not as relevant as you are making it to be

They were both injured heavily Goku wasn’t hit by the spirit bomb if that’s what you were saying when you mentioned partially

he was partially by the explosion of it after he struck freeza with it

when Frieza was shown to live he kills Krillin and goes SSJ also you can’t quantify how much effect an injury has and

so we can't use that as a comparison to the vegeta fight since we have pretty showings of how heavily injured and weakened goku was

I’ve been waiting for you to send the scans you said you’d send

no more wait i send them

A 4x difference is more than enough to destroy his sand barrier did you not see the Sasuke fight or deidara fight?

when have i said that he wouldn't be able to destroy the sand barrier? read again:

+5x ap advantage over the sand with oozaru, just to note that the ap advantage is not big enough for him to be able to effortlesly destroy gaara's sand

If his sand barrier gets penetrated he’s vulnerable to get attacked

you do know that they are 500 meters apart right? also:

+due to starting distance and vegeta already proven to be a major threat to his village as specified by the op would start taking the fight seriosly and try to stop vegeta quikcly with his sand lifting strength advantage, which would allow him to end vegeta in numerous ways
+substitution jutsu to scape from vegeta's blows even if he did hit him
+can overun vegeta with numerous massive sand tsunamis that can be several kilometers long
+up with point above since they are in the desert he would have almost unlimited suply of ammo to trow at vegeta, with the sand being able to constantly reform even if vegeta disipates it with him being able to trow massive ammounts of kilometers of sand rather easily

which I would imagine Vegeta doing a powerful beam attack from his mouth in Oozaru and just finishing him off and penetrating his defense rather easily

while having kilometers of sand attacking him at once? don't think so, also gaara can just easily escape with substitution jutsu and sand clones

 

[Omegabronic]

The page just says he can fight for hours agaist high level opponets, each Vegeta can also do.

what does sayan saga vegeta have for stamina feat to math that

And while still better, considering how much demage vegeta can take without going down, and Gaara can't really do much demage, this only matter if the fight takes a long time.

gaara has the survivability to make the fight go that long

Wow, the op really just shot vegeta down here.

if you want a narrative interesting fight you have to lol

How long is the range of the substituition jutsu? Because Vegeta have some AoE ki blasts range here.

How far his substition jutsu can take him?

several meters, while also creating an illusion and speed amp to make vegeta think he hit gaara

I mean, vegeta can blast the tsunami to escape, or fly away from the range of the attack.

one maybe, but he has like, several other kilometers of sand to escape from, also the one he blasts will just reform easily enough, with all the sand being extremely fast, so he would have much trouble to just fly away from it

And if he is engulfed, he can escape with Super Explosive Wave.

from what i seen of his usage of it in the sayan saga he seens to need to move his body a little to do it, which doesn't work if gaara restrains him too much, also he can do with one, but there are several others constantly being trow at him while the one he blasted reforms and comes back

Wow, thast is a problem.

yep

Thas't also a problem, but how does that work exactly?

puts vegeta in a sand piramid and engulfs him in special markings that make him unable to do much of anything, specially to move

Can he? wow.

So i guess his chakra gonna get spend very fast.

gaara has bonkers chackra reserves even without his bijuu, he constantly fought in the war while using his sand constantly, and the war took 3 days straight, he still had chackra even after having his ass beaten by madara and using more sand to fly some kilometers to the main battlefield of the end of the war, i don't think that will be much of a problem tbh

Is just 4x trought.

oh, even better for my point then

I really don't care for this argument since is boring.

ok then

When you got the scan problem figured out, can you show me the scouter working like that? Picking up infused objects with energy?

no here is the thing, he would pick up gaara's chackra power, which is 5-B, what makes the sand 5-B is gaara's own power, he just can't apply it to his own body, by he was 5-B power still

 

[YungManzi]

About the dirty fireworks thing and whether or not Amaterasu is a projectile here:

The user spawns inextinguishable black flames on their target as long as it's in their line of sight[59][60

^Amaterasu is literally said to spawn on the target in the PnA section.

So seriously, drop dirty fireworks as a win con for Vegeta.

edit:

Any votes via dirty fireworks shouldn’t even be counted since it’s based on a false premise which isn’t accepted on the profiles.

 

[TheGodOfICE777]

could you send the name of it on my wall?


goku landed a few punches on vegeta with times 3 and he was more extremely frustated then seriosly damaged more than anything, and times 4 is only a 1.5 difference that made vegeta even more frustated and decided to use the oozaru


by a very small margin mind you, why do you keep ignoring that?


shown me evidence that he was "heavily injured"


ok then:

using kaioken beyond 2 puts tremendous stress on his body, to the point where he might die if he doesn't concentrate fully on it

after using it only for a second of times 4 left him kneeling down gasping and trembling because of tiring and screaming in pain

in fact he was so much weakned that a casual slap from yajirobe was enough to make him scream in pain

with him saying that he was at the limit of what his body could do

with king kai saying that vegeta may even be too much for goku even without the great ape, with goku having "no strength left"
while vegeta?

he took the blast and easily got off of it after a while

and was far more frustated then anything, he doesn't even seen that much damage by the blast at all, which makes sense since the difference between the times 3 that he matched and the times 4 that hit him was only of 1.5 times, so nothing really major

it is very clear that goku is the one extremely injured and weakened by the time of the great ape transformation, with vegeta being barely injured in comparison to goku



dude see my original point again, it doesn't matter if goku thought that it was a ki blast or not, he was surprised and confused because of vegeta's explanation and batter right before transforming into the great ape, not because of his power dreceasing by much, which makes sense since vegeta just said that his power would only ever get lowered a by a "bit", nothing really major


send up above


yep, while on the limit of his body, for the vegeta stuff i covered above


i read the crt dude, that was merely a support point for the blatant 10x power multiplier that the manga stated, it really is not as relevant as you are making it to be


he was partially by the explosion of it after he struck freeza with it


so we can't use that as a comparison to the vegeta fight since we have pretty showings of how heavily injured and weakened goku was


no more wait i send them

when have i said that he wouldn't be able to destroy the sand barrier? read again:




you do know that they are 500 meters apart right? also:




while having kilometers of sand attacking him at once? don't think so, also gaara can just easily escape with substitution jutsu and sand clones

Yeah I was just mentioning the fact that it was damaged

I’m not ignoring it Vegeta does mention that the technique “may” lower his power a bit which implies he doesn’t know how much it would lower his power and Goku’s statement makes it seem like a good chunk of his power

He was bleeding from the mouth when at that point he was injured and his armor was battered up though I forget if Vegeta gets hit by the spirit bomb before or after he turns Oozaru for the Yajirobe slap his body was still sore though

Goku literally says there “his power dropped when he made that strange light” and he said to go that far to drop his power and wondered what he was planning so the power decrease was enough for goku to make goku wonder what he’s planning to do to go that far and make his power drop that much

It is as relevant as I mention because that scan was used as justification for the 10x multiplier and the statement was taken as goku mentioning his peak power as a kaioken x5 as well in the accepted crt

Also if you’re talking about them getting sent backwards from the shockwave of the spirit bomb they weren’t really damaged by that even Bulma was fine

If the statement is taken as if goku was in his peak state using kaioken x5 then it is valid to use in this situation but I still don’t get what you don’t understand about someone’s BP being multiplied by 10x means when we have a note for this on the db page

For Gaara’s sand barrier my point is if he’s 4x stronger and can shoot energy beams he would be effortlessly able to demolish his sand barrier

Also when does Gaara use substitution jutsu and sand clones consistently ic? Ive watched naruto shippuden and I dont even recall Gaara using substituion jutsu so I doubt he uses it consistently ic

Also in character didn’t Gaara literally wait on the top of a tower for Deidara to approach him and then tried to fight him? I don’t the distance matters if that’s what he does in character

 

[Fezzih_007]

what does sayan saga vegeta have for stamina feat to math that

Well, the fight between Goku and Co starts during the day, and is like afternoon afterwords.

gaara has the survivability to make the fight go that long

Considering that vegeta needs one hit to end the battle, and his Ki attacks are very fast, is more likely to the fight end it before the stamine catch ups. It still can happen, is just unlikely.

several meters, while also creating an illusion and speed amp to make vegeta think he hit gaara

Vegeta attacks covers much range than that troughts, and he can also spam, so like, several explosions.

one maybe, but he has like, several other kilometers of sand to escape from

He can definitily do, his attacks have enough range of kilometers too.

, also the one he blasts will just reform easily enough

So like, the tsunami will come to run trought vegeta, he blast a hole on the sand of the tsunami, escape trought it super fast.
And if the next argument is that he can do more, first of all i gonna have to ask how fast is the moving speed of this tsunami, can he spams multiples ones over several kilometers and prove.

And vegeta is gonna eventually reach Gaara, so he can stop the spamming little bastard.

, with all the sand being extremely fast, so he would have much trouble to just fly away from it

Vegeta is also fast.

from what i seen of his usage of it in the sayan saga he seens to need to move his body

Duh, he have to open his arm and cause the explosion.

a little to do it, which doesn't work if gaara restrains him too much, also he can do with one, but there are several others constantly being trow at him while the one he blasted reforms and comes back

Considering the range of the attack, that being island level

He can also hit Gaara, to make him stop,

puts vegeta in a sand piramid and engulfs him in special markings that make him unable to do much of anything, specially to move

Din't he need to put special markings on the sand like, psycally? Or the sand already comes with the mark, i don't remenber.

gaara has bonkers chackra reserves even without his bijuu, he constantly fought in the war while using his sand constantly

Did he fight a fight like this scenario for hours?

, and the war took 3 days straight, he still had chackra even after having his ass beaten by madara

Din't he got healed by tsunade, and also rested a little bit?

i don't think that will be much of a problem tbh

Sure.

oh, even better for my point then

Not really.

no here is the thing, he would pick up gaara's chackra power, which is 5-B, what makes the sand 5-B is gaara's own power, he just can't apply it to his own body, by he was 5-B power still

I not really sure, he might also just pick his physical power too, and be surprise of the power of the sand.

 

[Fezzih_007]

So seriously, drop dirty fireworks as a win con for Vegeta.

edit:

Any votes via dirty fireworks shouldn’t even be counted since it’s based on a false premise which isn’t accepted on the profiles.

Unless you can prove that dirty fireworks can be bloked, No.

 

[YungManzi]

Unless you can prove that dirty fireworks can be bloked, No.

It can be blocked because Gaara could block Amaterasu which is the same as an attack in that it just spawns on top of you.

Edit:

The Dirty Fireworks argument relies on taking Amaterasu as a projectile

 

[Fezzih_007]

It can be blocked because Gaara could block Amaterasu which is the same as an attack in that it just spawns on top of you.

No lol, Since DF spams inside of you, is quite diferent from amaterasu. And saying that DF (A technique that was never show to be blocked) can be bloked because Amaterasu can be blocked don't make much sense here.

 

[SlendVeny]

Yeah, i just gonna wait someone to laid down all the wincons, because i don't watch naruto for a longer, and barely remember Gaara fights.

He typically just breaks peoples arms and drowns them in sand, or crushes them.

 

[Omegabronic]

Well, the fight between Goku and Co starts during the day, and is like afternoon afterwords.

well gaara then does have and advantage, he fought for hours during several days

Considering that vegeta needs one hit to end the battle, and his Ki attacks are very fast, is more likely to the fight end it before the stamine catch ups. It still can happen, is just unlikely.

well, gaara has methods to survive even if he does get hit

Vegeta attacks covers much range than that troughts, and he can also spam, so like, several explosions.

he has but gaara is faster than vegeta with an speed amp on top, so he can outrun it, and gaara can also spam sand as well

He can definitily do, his attacks have enough range of kilometers too.

he doesn't have that in the profile and the examples you gave didn't gave me much to see that

So like, the tsunami will come to run trought vegeta, he blast a hole on the sand of the tsunami, escape trought it super fast.

gaara is faster than vegeta, blast one and he has like, 4 on his back, under him and probably even above, they are faster than him so he wouldn't be able to escape super fast from it, btw i keep calling them tsunamis for lack of a term for it, it is much more like, several tentacle like sand things

And if the next argument is that he can do more, first of all i gonna have to ask how fast is the moving speed of this tsunami, can he spams multiples ones over several kilometers and prove.

well he can, just see the entirety of the deidara fight, he moved that much in a second to cover his vilage, his sand is normaly as fast as he is

And vegeta is gonna eventually reach Gaara, so he can stop the spamming little bastard.

i just can't see how when he will be constantly surrounded by kilometers of sand attacking him and restraining him and tossing him constantly

Vegeta is also fast.

gaara is faster than vegeta, you can't forget that

Duh, he have to open his arm and cause the explosion.

well then, if gaara manages to hold him firmly or seal him he won't be able to do that, since he won't be able to move at all

Considering the range of the attack, that being island level

that is piccolo doing, he does in a very different manner than vegeta with also a different pose, i don't know if we can compare those both, either way, if he really needs to move to do the explosion, then he is screwed when gaara graples him with sand, since he won't be able to move at all

He can also hit Gaara, to make him stop,

gaara has several way to avoid it as i have explained, also gaara can also make him unable to do that period by restraining him

Din't he need to put special markings on the sand like, psycally? Or the sand already comes with the mark, i don't remenber.

the sand creates the marks iirc

Did he fight a fight like this scenario for hours?

for hours and a couple of days actually

Din't he got healed by tsunade, and also rested a little bit?

she didn't had the energy to heal them by much, she heals wonds, she doesn't replenishs chackra, he didn't rested per say, he was beaten to almost death and lay there for like, an hour tops, maybe even just a dozen of minutes, he didn't had time to really rest tbh

Sure.

thanks

Not really.

kind of does, the difference is not big enough for him to be able to do that much easily, specially with gaara spaming it

I not really sure, he might also just pick his physical power too, and be surprise of the power of the sand.

either way he would see pretty soon that gaara is worth his time, also what is the range for dirty fireworks? because they are like, 500 meters aways from each other

Yeah I was just mentioning the fact that it was damaged

ok, he was damaged alright, but not by much or a great margin

I’m not ignoring it Vegeta does mention that the technique “may” lower his power a bit which implies he doesn’t know how much it would lower his power and Goku’s statement makes it seem like a good chunk of his power

goku's statement just says "his power dropped" without implying by how much at all, also vegeta knows about the thing more than anyone in that saga, if he thinks that it won't be by much, there is no real reason to doubt him, or better yet, to say that it is the oposite of what he thought, specially since he doesn't seem surprise about his power loss, implying that he was close to what he thought he would lose

He was bleeding from the mouth when at that point

he was bleeding from the mouth since him got punched by kaioken 2x goku

also he was not bleeding by much, i don't know why you think that this was "severe damage" or whatever

he was injured and his armor was battered up

his armor is not him tho, if that is your point goku's gi was in way worst condiction

though I forget if Vegeta gets hit by the spirit bomb before or after he turns Oozaru for the Yajirobe slap his body was still sore though

after he turns into an oozaru after losing his tail and having a major lost of energy because of it

Goku literally says there “his power dropped when he made that strange light” and he said to go that far to drop his power

yeah, no matter how small, to drop your power for something apparently weak is going to be strange no matter what the situation is

and wondered what he was planning so the power decrease was enough for goku to make goku wonder what he’s planning to do to go that far and make his power drop that much

goku never makes a comment to warrant this "that much" he was more confused as to what vegeta was talking about his transformation and what a weak ball of energy had to do with it, the context of the scene doesn't indicate that he is shocked because of a supposed "huge power loss"

It is as relevant as I mention because that scan was used as justification for the 10x multiplier and the statement was taken as goku mentioning his peak power as a kaioken x5 as well in the accepted crt

because it helps a little, but it was never the main point lol, also goku was talking about his current situation there, since that is what he is worried and wondering what to do about, i read the same crt as you, will you link a post about what you are talking about please?

Also if you’re talking about them getting sent backwards from the shockwave of the spirit bomb they weren’t really damaged by that even Bulma was fine

they were somewhat damaged, it is not by very much true, because it was still noteworthy since he needed help from krillin to stand up afterwards

If the statement is taken as if goku was in his peak state using kaioken x5 then it is valid to use in this situation

the statement is talking about goku in his current situation, it is nonsensical to be talking about anything else considering the context and the situation where he thought that

but I still don’t get what you don’t understand about someone’s BP being multiplied by 10x means when we have a note for this on the db page

the note only say the obvious "if yout ki increases, so does your speed" which is, okay duh no shit, but nothing about it all stats being multipled equally if one stat is, heck vegeta doesn't even say that his "power level" grew that much, just that his "power" did, so the argument doesn't even work

For Gaara’s sand barrier my point is if he’s 4x stronger and can shoot energy beams he would be effortlessly able to demolish his sand barrier

4x is not big enough to do that effortlessly, no idea why you think that it is, specially with gaara spaming kilometer wide sand after vegeta

Also when does Gaara use substitution jutsu and sand clones consistently ic? Ive watched naruto shippuden and I dont even recall Gaara using substituion jutsu so I doubt he uses it consistently ic

if he is about to be hit he will, just like against lee in the chunin exams

Also in character didn’t Gaara literally wait on the top of a tower for Deidara to approach him and then tried to fight him? I don’t the distance matters if that’s what he does in character

nope, he goes after deidara from a distance, one of the problems for deidara in that fight was him not being able to get near gaara

 

[Fezzih_007]

well gaara then does have and advantage, he fought for hours during several days

In the profile It says Just hours, not days.

well, gaara has methods to survive even if he does get hit

He can survive a One-Shot? How?

he has but gaara is faster than vegeta with an speed amp on top, so he can outrun it

He can't constantly use subs jutsu trought.

, and gaara can also spam sand as well

So? What's that have to do with Vegeta spamming his attacks until Gaara can't Dodge anymore?

he doesn't have that in the profile and the examples you gave didn't gave me much to see that

Planetary range.

gaara is faster than vegeta, blast one and he has like, 4 on his back, under him and probably even above, they are faster than him so he wouldn't be able to escape super fast from it, btw i keep calling them tsunamis for lack of a term for it, it is much more like, several tentacle like sand things

I gonna ignore the fact you saying that Gaara is faster, since speed Amp of oozaru is a thing.

well then, if gaara manages to hold him firmly or seal him he won't be able to do that, since he won't be able to move at all

The point here is that If a bunch of sand is around him, he can disperse with the Explosion, him using hand don't really matter.
And he can Very Quick too.

that is piccolo doing, he does in a very different manner than vegeta with also a different pose, i don't know if we can compare those both,

Is the same technique.

if he really needs to move to do the explosion, then he is screwed when gaara graples him with sand, since he won't be able to move at all

He needing to move don't really matter, he can do the attack even If he got caught.

gaara has several way to avoid it

A level Island explosion?

as i have explained, also gaara can also make him unable to do that period by restraining him

If he can.

for hours and a couple of days actually

In the scenario of this battle, did he fight in the same conditions? Because Gaara would be setting Chakra way different If what you Said actually How he would fight.

she didn't had the energy to heal them by much, she heals wonds, she doesn't replenishs chackra, he didn't rested per say, he was beaten to almost death and lay there for like, an hour tops, maybe even just a dozen of minutes, he didn't had time to really rest tbh

I mean, If he rested for hours i don't think the stamina think counts.

kind of does, the difference is not big enough for him to be able to do that much easily, specially with gaara spaming it

Is big enough that he can't give Gaara breathing Room, since he would be receiving attacks that his shields can't tank It, and giving the fact you say he would be dodging too, spamming is gonna be hard.

either way he would see pretty soon that gaara is worth his time

Right.

also what is the range for dirty fireworks? because they are like, 500 meters aways from each other

A few meters.


The whole speed thing is kind of a issue, since we can't agree How much faster Vegeta gets, i think we should just make speed equal, or agree in number for the amp for speed to vegeta.

 

[TheGodOfICE777]

well gaara then does have and advantage, he fought for hours during several days


well, gaara has methods to survive even if he does get hit


he has but gaara is faster than vegeta with an speed amp on top, so he can outrun it, and gaara can also spam sand as well


he doesn't have that in the profile and the examples you gave didn't gave me much to see that


gaara is faster than vegeta, blast one and he has like, 4 on his back, under him and probably even above, they are faster than him so he wouldn't be able to escape super fast from it, btw i keep calling them tsunamis for lack of a term for it, it is much more like, several tentacle like sand things


well he can, just see the entirety of the deidara fight, he moved that much in a second to cover his vilage, his sand is normaly as fast as he is


i just can't see how when he will be constantly surrounded by kilometers of sand attacking him and restraining him and tossing him constantly


gaara is faster than vegeta, you can't forget that


well then, if gaara manages to hold him firmly or seal him he won't be able to do that, since he won't be able to move at all


that is piccolo doing, he does in a very different manner than vegeta with also a different pose, i don't know if we can compare those both, either way, if he really needs to move to do the explosion, then he is screwed when gaara graples him with sand, since he won't be able to move at all


gaara has several way to avoid it as i have explained, also gaara can also make him unable to do that period by restraining him


the sand creates the marks iirc


for hours and a couple of days actually


she didn't had the energy to heal them by much, she heals wonds, she doesn't replenishs chackra, he didn't rested per say, he was beaten to almost death and lay there for like, an hour tops, maybe even just a dozen of minutes, he didn't had time to really rest tbh


thanks


kind of does, the difference is not big enough for him to be able to do that much easily, specially with gaara spaming it


either way he would see pretty soon that gaara is worth his time, also what is the range for dirty fireworks? because they are like, 500 meters aways from each other


ok, he was damaged alright, but not by much or a great margin


goku's statement just says "his power dropped" without implying by how much at all, also vegeta knows about the thing more than anyone in that saga, if he thinks that it won't be by much, there is no real reason to doubt him, or better yet, to say that it is the oposite of what he thought, specially since he doesn't seem surprise about his power loss, implying that he was close to what he thought he would lose


he was bleeding from the mouth since him got punched by kaioken 2x goku

also he was not bleeding by much, i don't know why you think that this was "severe damage" or whatever


his armor is not him tho, if that is your point goku's gi was in way worst condiction


after he turns into an oozaru after losing his tail and having a major lost of energy because of it


yeah, no matter how small, to drop your power for something apparently weak is going to be strange no matter what the situation is


goku never makes a comment to warrant this "that much" he was more confused as to what vegeta was talking about his transformation and what a weak ball of energy had to do with it, the context of the scene doesn't indicate that he is shocked because of a supposed "huge power loss"


because it helps a little, but it was never the main point lol, also goku was talking about his current situation there, since that is what he is worried and wondering what to do about, i read the same crt as you, will you link a post about what you are talking about please?


they were somewhat damaged, it is not by very much true, because it was still noteworthy since he needed help from krillin to stand up afterwards


the statement is talking about goku in his current situation, it is nonsensical to be talking about anything else considering the context and the situation where he thought that


the note only say the obvious "if yout ki increases, so does your speed" which is, okay duh no shit, but nothing about it all stats being multipled equally if one stat is, heck vegeta doesn't even say that his "power level" grew that much, just that his "power" did, so the argument doesn't even work


4x is not big enough to do that effortlessly, no idea why you think that it is, specially with gaara spaming kilometer wide sand after vegeta


if he is about to be hit he will, just like against lee in the chunin exams


nope, he goes after deidara from a distance, one of the problems for deidara in that fight was him not being able to get near gaara

Can you quantify how much he got damaged and make a boost from how much weaker he'd be? He was still injured at that point

I'm not doubting Vegeta his statement just says may which implies he doesn't know how much it "may" decrease and Goku thinks Vegeta is planning something and is wondering why he would make himself that much weaker so it has to be drastic although how much he got weaker can't be quantified

He was bleeding multiple times during the fight but at that moment I'm pretty sure he just wiped off the blood and I'm talking about Vegeta being severely damaged because I'm pretty sure he was hit by a spirit bomb at that point but you may correct me if I'm wrong

Both of their clothing were worn out and battered up because they were both injured which was the point I was making

I can't tell what you're saying here but are you saying he gets hit by the spirit bomb as an oozaru? Again I'm not sure what you're saying here or if you're saying he got hit by the spirit bomb after he detransformed out of oozaru

When did Goku say that he thought Vegeta's power was weak he was questioning what Vegeta was planning because when he formed the artifical moon in his hand his power dropped

Again he never assumed he was gonna get attacked by this he was just wondering what Vegeta's plan was because this technique dropped his power

It's in the op

Why would that be nonsensical? Goku is talking about hypotheticals like a hypothetical kaioken x5

Well battle power refers to the readings produced by scouters in where the reading is converted into numbers based on the detection of their ki so are you saying power doesn't refer to BP in this instance and that if it did say BP it'd be valid? This argument does work because of how BP functions

4x AP is enough for Vegeta to penetrate and destroy his sand especially considering it was able to be penetrated by a chidori

Interesting I do not recall Gaara ever using those types of jutsus but does he only do this once or does he do this consistently within the series because if it's a one time thing against Lee that's not really ic

I see that youtube comment on the video lied to me saying Gaara waited at the top of his palace for Deidara

 

[YungManzi]

No lol, Since DF spams inside of you, is quite diferent from amaterasu. And saying that DF (A technique that was never show to be blocked) can be bloked because Amaterasu can be blocked don't make much sense here.

DF does not spawn inside of you. There's no proof of that. He certainly doesn't have durability negation via that on his profile. (which Amaterasu actually has kek)

 

[Fezzih_007]

DF does not spawn inside of you

It literaly explode you from inside, and is described as that on materials.

He certainly doesn't have durability negation via that on his profile.

Because don't negate durability, is just explode you from inside.

 

[Robo432343]

WHO IS WINNING

 

[YungManzi]

It literaly explode you from inside, and is described as that on materials.

Because don't negate durability, is just explode you from inside.

Exploding something from its insides is durability negation.

Anyway, yeah, like I said Vegeta here is like a slower Lee with beams.

 

[Fezzih_007]

Is currently 10 to vegeta and 8 for Gaara.

 

[Fezzih_007]

Anyway, yeah, like I said Vegeta here is like a slower Lee with beams.

I don't see how that matters, since Gaara still can't speedblitz him before Vegeta points at him.