Vegeta (Saiyan Saga) VS Gaara (New Era) (14-11-0) (GRACE)

[Arnoldstone18]

If that was the case the foe wouldnt explode from the inside, instead it would just cause a normal explosion on the op because he is pointing at the "outside" of the foe, not at his insides

I dont see how gaaras sand would protext him from something like this

It simply wouldn’t protect Gaara. They’re stonewalling at this point

 

[omegabronic]

Took me a while to realize that u responded, sorry

it is fine

The attack SPAWNS ON HIM dude, the punch quite literally spawns on his face

How the hell is the sand is gonna react to something that literally SPAWNS on gaara? the same thing goes to dirty fireworks too btw, its not an explosion that is guided by whatever vegeta is pointing.Its just an attack that makes the enemy implode

the saitama thing is time travel shenanigans, so not really comparable, but anyway, dirty fireworks is almost out of question since vegeta would feel gaara's sand power and would not consider not worth his time anyway

but just to say, his sand reacts to attack instinctively, vegeta charging and attack before poiting to do it would make the sand react and get in the way, also the sand is constantly around gaara, so we can't say if it would explode gaara if vegeta pointed in the first place since it could be pointing at the sand that is around him

He never tested someone in the series, like at all.There is a reason he sent the saibamens and nappa ro fight the z fighers you know, because he could bother doing it himself

yeah and the z fighters were fodder to him, he send the saibamen to test them since the scouters were not useful against people who can hide their power level, gaara is in fight mode here, his sand has a higher power than vegeta, he would try and fight him

Dude refused to do anything until goku arrived

Why would he even do that here?

gaara's sand is stronger than him, and the scouter would see that

Ins't you argument that he can cover Vegeta in a cube of sand, or i understand wrong? Because Vegeta gonna keep flying upwards so he can't caught by the sand that's bellow him, while also attacking with Ki blast so Gaara can't keep attacking constantly with sand.

not only bellow, but from every direction constantly while reforming itself and going to attack again, blows all you want, the sand will keep coming

What? Gaara is the guy who is the threat to him because he is the one controling the sand, attacking the sand only would happen if he is stupid.

well, if vegeta attacks gaara, the sand protects him and then the attacking sand chokes him or subdues him, he will not have time to chase gaara while there is so much sand everywhere else attacking him

If you argument is that since Gaara is trowing the sand on him, he would defend himself by attacking the sand, yeah obvious but he also would attack the guy who is controling the sand;

the sand would protect gaara automatically so that is not a problem for gaara

Btw, Gaara have unlimeted chakra to keep using that much sand?

yep, he fought for numerous days straight while constantly using his sand during the 4th ninja war

As you see, is pretty big.

i can only see that as several meters big, i don't think it is much of a concern for gaara

And i think he can do this too, if we scale him to nappa.

well it sure isn't in character for him to do that since he never ever used that

 

[Myguy]

If it wasn't based on pointing, he could do it with his mind.

Well, ye vegeta defintely needs to point, but it cant be intercepted, that is what im trying to say

If it worked like that, the opponents would get blown up from the outside, not the inside.So gaara's sand wouldnt be able to intercept it.

 

[omegabronic]

The genki dama , a attack that draw life energy, can be formed with the the plants, three and the sun.

plants and threes are living things, and all goku is doing is getting energy from those things, not ki, "genki" is a part of what ki is, but it isn't ki outright

You have to prove that the scouter can do that.

it is logical, the sand gaara uses is infused with his chackra, heck, i could argue that he would scan gaara's power level as the same of the sand since his own chackra is what is giving power to the sand

 

[omegabronic]

Well, ye vegeta defintely needs to point, but it cant be intercepted, that is what im trying to say

yeah, but it would prepare itself when vegeta starts to prepare the attack

If it worked like that, the opponents would get blown up from the outside, not the inside.So gaara's sand wouldnt be able to intercept it.

btw now that i think about it, how do we know that it blows it up from the inside? could you send the scans again?

 

[SlendVeny]

Well, ye vegeta defintely needs to point, but it cant be intercepted, that is what im trying to say

It can, just put something between you before he can point.

 

[Myguy]

yeah, but it would prepare itself when vegeta starts to prepare the attack


btw now that i think about it, how do we know that it blows it up from the inside? could you send the scans again?

We dont see this detail in the manga, but in kakarot and in the anime when he uses that against cui,the later pops like a baloon that received too much air

Like u can even see their faces inflating, which is funny

Here is how its in the manga




You can also see how cui remains are getting launched at the opposite direction of where cui was, which implies that the explosion came from inside

 

[Myguy]

It can, just put something between you before he can point.

If that was all it took to stop dirty fireworks,it wouldnt pop people like a baloon, it would cause a normal explosion outside the foe


Is not like vegeta is pointing at their insides

 

[omegabronic]

We dont see this detail in the manga, but in kakarot and in the anime when he uses that against cui,the later pops like a baloon that received too much air

Like u can even see their faces inflating, which is funny

well, these are not the manga soo, idk about using them

Here is how its in the manga




You can also see how cui remains are getting launched at the opposite direction of where cui was, which implies that the explosion came from inside

honestly, that looks like is making an explosion on him rather then inside him

If that was all it took to stop dirty fireworks,it wouldnt pop people like a baloon, it would cause a normal explosion outside the foe


Is not like vegeta is pointing at their insides

by this logic he is pointing at them and making an explosion inside of what he is pointing at, which would not be the case if the sand is in the way, since that is a separated thing from gaara

 

[Huesito88]

"i can only see that as several meters big, i don't think it is much of a concern for gaara"

It was only a few meters because Vegeta was weakened even immediately after doing that Vegeta stated that that was pathetic and that he couldn't believe that he has been reduced to this.

 

[omegabronic]

"i can only see that as several meters big, i don't think it is much of a concern for gaara"

It was only a few meters because Vegeta was weakened even immediately after doing that Vegeta stated that that was pathetic and that he couldn't believe that he has been reduced to this.

do we have an example of how big it would have been with him at full power during that time?

 

[Arnoldstone18]

honestly, that looks like is making an explosion on him rather then inside him

You can also see how cui remains are getting launched at the opposite direction of where cui was, which implies that the explosion came from inside

 

[TheGodOfICE777]

So how is Gaara beating Oozaru Vegeta? Would like to hear some answers to that before I vote but I’m leaning towards Incon or vegeta winning but I won’t officially vote yet

 

[Fezzih_007]

not only bellow, but from every direction constantly while reforming itself and going to attack again, blows all you want, the sand will keep coming

Why would be sand in the air? What i saying is vegeta is gonna notice how Gaara is controling sand, and he gonna keep his distance away of the sand by flying upward very far away, and attack

well, if vegeta attacks gaara, the sand protects him

I pretty sure that Vegeta Ozzaru have better Ap than Gaara sands, if he tries to block he probally dies. And just his sands, not Gaara himself

and then the attacking sand chokes him or subdues him, he will not have time to chase gaara while there is so much sand everywhere else attacking him

In the air, and Vegeta have a bigger durability for that to work.

yep, he fought for numerous days straight while constantly using his sand during the 4th ninja war

Oh, that's cool, i don't remenber that.

i can only see that as several meters big, i don't think it is much of a concern for gaara

Can Gaara dodge something that big? Are you sure he is not gonna get caught by the explosion in any scenario?

well it sure isn't in character for him to do that since he never ever used that

I just saying he can do that, not that he is going to immediatily.

plants and threes are living things, and all goku is doing is getting energy from those things, not ki, "genki" is a part of what ki is, but it isn't ki outright

And the scouter never pick up this.

it is logical, the sand gaara uses is infused with his chackra, heck, i could argue that he would scan gaara's power level as the same of the sand since his own chackra is what is giving power to the sand

Do you have prove that the scouter can detect things infused with life energy?

And also could argue that it would't but i don't wanna right now.


Anyway, Vegeta can One Shot here, i think he takes it.

 

[Myguy]

well, these are not the manga soo, idk about using them

I feel like that both anime and kakarot can be used as a "support" to have a more clear understanding what is happening.

That is one of the objectives of an adaptation after all, but its fair you think that way.This is the same adaptation that said kid buu is the strongest incarnation of majin buu lol, so theya re not always reliable

honestly, that looks like is making an explosion on him rather then inside him

You can also see how cui remains are getting launched at the opposite direction of where cui was, which implies that the explosion came from inside

by this logic he is pointing at them and making an explosion inside of what he is pointing at, which would not be the case if the sand is in the way, since that is a separated thing from gaara

Well, what i actually meant its that vegeta doesnt need to not be interrupted to work.

It feels somewhat comparable to the force, darth vader just lifts his hand and force chocks the target he is focusing on

While vegeta points at someone, focus on said person and cause them to implode, instead of imploding whatever is in the way of his fingers

I feel like if it really just detroyed anything in its path, it would just cause and explosion around his foe instead

But granted, this is really just open to interpretation, the only thing we know about the move is that it implodes whatever vegeta is poiting at, but if its implodes anything that is in his fingers way or just what vegeta wants to explode was never revealed

 

[Fezzih_007]

So how is Gaara beating Oozaru Vegeta? Would like to hear some answers to that before I vote but I’m leaning towards Incon or vegeta winning but I won’t officially vote yet

If Gaara restrain Vegeta, and trows Sand trought Vegeta mouth he would die via suffocation.

 

[TheGodOfICE777]

If Gaara restrain Vegeta, and trows Sand trought Vegeta mouth he would die via suffocation.

That seems very unlikely if Vegeta can just destroy the sand with his higher AP advantage and penetrate Gaara’s sand defense and just land a normal blow to kill him

 

[YungManzi]

So we've now moved the goalpost to Vegeta starting as Oozaru instead if dirty fireworks, huh?

 

[TheGodOfICE777]

So we've now moved the goalpost to Vegeta starting as Oozaru instead if dirty fireworks, huh?

Yeah due to SBA I legit can’t see how Gaara can win this but I’m trying to remain as neutral as possible

 

[Nierre]

What does SBA have to do with this? The OP stated Vegeta starts in base, and has access to his Oozaru form (via the Artificial Moon). He still is able to access the form even without the moon, no?

 

[Fezzih_007]

Wouldn’t there be a full moon out already due to SBA?

Time: The time and date are chosen in such a fashion that all characters are at their strongest. Paradoxes like it being night for one character, while being day for another are acceptable here. If extreme advantages are generated via this regulation to one side, a balanced alternative should be discussed in the thread.

What does SBA have to do with this? The OP stated Vegeta starts in base, and has access to his Oozaru form (via the Artificial Moon). He still is able to access the form even without the moon, no?

 

[Arnoldstone18]

So we've now moved the goalpost to Vegeta starting as Oozaru instead if dirty fireworks, huh?

no we just moved on to another Vegeta wincon

 

[Nierre]

....So then the time should be changed or else this is a stomp.

 

[Arnoldstone18]

....So then the time should be changed or else this is a stomp.

SBA kinda make it in such a way that night and day occurs at the same time iirc so characters can fight at their best.

but yeah that’s possible but advantageous to Gaara. Unless the “Dirty Fireworks gg” prevails which it should cuz Vegeta wouldn’t fight a weakling directly.

 

[Nierre]

The whole wincon for Gaara was assuming he'd win before Vegeta uses the fake moon to become an Ape, but if he already starts as an Ape, Gaara has no way of winning tmk.

 

[omegabronic]

I feel like that both anime and kakarot can be used as a "support" to have a more clear understanding what is happening.

That is one of the objectives of an adaptation after all, but its fair you think that way.This is the same adaptation that said kid buu is the strongest incarnation of majin buu lol, so theya re not always reliable

Yeah, i concede on this point for your other point then

Well, what i actually meant its that vegeta doesnt need to not be interrupted to work.

It feels somewhat comparable to the force, darth vader just lifts his hand and force chocks the target he is focusing on

While vegeta points at someone, focus on said person and cause them to implode, instead of imploding whatever is in the way of his fingers

I feel like if it really just detroyed anything in its path, it would just cause and explosion around his foe instead

But granted, this is really just open to interpretation, the only thing we know about the move is that it implodes whatever vegeta is poiting at, but if its implodes anything that is in his fingers way or just what vegeta wants to explode was never revealed

So to say that the sand would work to protect is as valid as saying that it wouldn't, leaving it in a limbo

That seems very unlikely if Vegeta can just destroy the sand with his higher AP advantage and penetrate Gaara’s sand defense and just land a normal blow to kill him

The sand can just reform itself if vegeta disparces it, plus gaara has like and nigh unlimited suply so...

Why would be sand in the air?

that is how gaara attacks, literraly in every fight that is how he attacks

What i saying is vegeta is gonna notice how Gaara is controling sand, and he gonna keep his distance away of the sand by flying upward very far away, and attack

and the sand will follow him, how would he be able to fly far away?

I pretty sure that Vegeta Ozzaru have better Ap than Gaara sands, if he tries to block he probally dies. And just his sands, not Gaara himself

The difference is not too big, the sound would be able to block it, not tank it tho

In the air, and Vegeta have a bigger durability for that to work.

the difference is not too big

Can Gaara dodge something that big? Are you sure he is not gonna get caught by the explosion in any scenario?

If the sands get in the way it will explode in the air and not very near gaara, so i say yeah

I just saying he can do that, not that he is going to immediatily.

oh okay

And the scouter never pick up this.

because it isn't ki, due to verse equalization chackra would be treated as same as ki and as such it would pick up

Do you have prove that the scouter can detect things infused with life energy?

Any reason for it to not do so when detecting it is one of its main functions?

And also could argue that it would't but i don't wanna right now.

fair enough

Anyway, Vegeta can One Shot here, i think he takes it.

Ok then

 

[omegabronic]

SBA kinda make it in such a way that night and day occurs at the same time iirc so characters can fight at their best.

but yeah that’s possible but advantageous to Gaara. Unless the “Dirty Fireworks gg” prevails which it should cuz Vegeta wouldn’t fight a weakling directly.

Gaaras chackra is 5-B tho, he would pick up on that by the scouter, plus the op makes it clear that vegeta decided to fight, so that doesn't make sense tonuse dirty fireworks

 

[Arnoldstone18]

The whole wincon for Gaara was assuming he'd win before Vegeta uses the fake moon to become an Ape, but if he already starts as an Ape, Gaara has no way of winning tmk.

Eh fair nuff I guess.

 

[TheGodOfICE777]

Yeah, i concede on this point for your other point then


So to say that the sand would work to protect is as valid as saying that it wouldn't, leaving it in a limbo


The sand can just reform itself if vegeta disparces it, plus gaara has like and nigh unlimited suply so...


that is how gaara attacks, literraly in every fight that is how he attacks


and the sand will follow him, how would he be able to fly far away?


The difference is not too big, the sound would be able to block it, not tank it tho


the difference is not too big


If the sands get in the way it will explode in the air and not very near gaara, so i say yeah


oh okay


because it isn't ki, due to verse equalization chackra would be treated as same as ki and as such it would pick up


Any reason for it to not do so when detecting it is one of its main functions?


fair enough


Ok then

Yeah by the time Gaara tries to reform his barrier Vegeta already finished him

 

[Arnoldstone18]

Gaaras chackra is 5-B tho, he would pick up on that by the scouter, plus the op makes it clear that vegeta decided to fight, so that doesn't make sense tonuse dirty fireworks

Did you answer requests to prove scouters can pick up Ki from inanimate objects?

Regardless Vegeta can still pick up Garaa before he ever tries to manipulate the sand and just blow him up which isn’t against SBA and it’s technically a fight so idk what you’re talking about at the end there

 

[omegabronic]

Yeah by the time Gaara tries to reform his barrier Vegeta already finished him

Gaara is faster than vegeta, also he has the entirety of the dessert at his disposal

Did you answer requests to prove scouters can pick up Ki from inanimate objects?

Gaara is the one providing the chackra for the sand, it is his chackra that would been scaned, since that is where it comes from

Regardless Vegeta can still pick up Garaa before he ever tries to manipulate the sand and just blow him up which isn’t against SBA and it’s technically a fight so idk what you’re talking about at the end there

He picked it up already and decided to just fight him, this is what the op decided, read it again

 

[TheGodOfICE777]

Gaara is faster than vegeta, also he has the entirety of the dessert at his disposal


Gaara is the one providing the chackra for the sand, it is his chackra that would been scaned, since that is where it comes from


He picked it up already and decided to just fight him, this is what the op decided, read it again

Even if you say Vegeta gets no speed amp AOE attacks or energy blasts

 

[Fezzih_007]

that is how gaara attacks, literraly in every fight that is how he attacks


and the sand will follow him, how would he be able to fly far away?

I saying like this, Vegeta sees that gaara have a field advantage, so he fly way way upwards so Gaara can't pick his sand immediatily after attacking anymore. Gaara will follow him, but the field advantage is gonna dissapears because he can't bring the entire desert with him to air, then he and Vegeta starts trowing attacks at each other, but since have the big Ap advantage, he would most likely win in this scenario

The difference is not too big, the sound would be able to block it, not tank it tho

the difference is not too big

4x difference trought, Vegeta can easily disperse the sand, and one shot him since he is phisically weaker than his sand.

If the sands get in the way it will explode in the air and not very near gaara, so i say yeah

Ok, thats a good point, but if vegeta spams, is gonna be a problem

because it isn't ki, due to verse equalization chackra would be treated as same as ki and as such it would pick up

Is some form of Ki, and the scouter never seems to works by detecting this type of things

Any reason for it to not do so when detecting it is one of its main functions?

Never showing to do show.

 

[Arnoldstone18]

Gaara is the one providing the chackra for the sand, it is his chackra that would been scaned, since that is where it comes from

This doesn’t answer any questions

 

[ZoroNotZolo]

I'm leaning Vegeta FRA right now. Subject to change. This is a good debate.

 

[omegabronic]

Even if you say Vegeta gets no speed amp AOE attacks or energy blasts

i don't think i understood what you said, yeah vegeta gets an amp in speed, but we don't know by how much

I saying like this, Vegeta sees that gaara have a field advantage, so he fly way way upwards so Gaara can't pick his sand immediatily after attacking anymore. Gaara will follow him, but the field advantage is gonna dissapears because he can't bring the entire desert with him to air

yes he kind of can, see the daidara fight, he brang so much sand in a second to cover an entire village

4x difference trought, Vegeta can easily disperse the sand, and one shot him since he is phisically weaker than his sand.

if he hits gaara then sure, but gaara has too much sand to get in his way, he is going to be able to destroy the sand barriers sure, but he is not strong enough to straight up ignore them, it will explode, but then again gaara has too much sand for him to just disperse all of it

Ok, thats a good point, but if vegeta spams, is gonna be a problem

maybe, but gaara has just to much sand to counter that also, gaara only needs one grab to trow vegeta down and drown him in kilometers of sand to subdue him

Is some form of Ki

no it isn't, it is but a third of what ki is made of, it is not ki yet

, and the scouter never seems to works by detecting this type of things

Never showing to do show.

it detects ki inside a thing(body) if another thing also has ki in it then it would detect since both are basically the same

not that it matters much since gaara would have that much chackra in him since he is the font that makes the sand 5-B

This doesn’t answer any questions

yes it does, would vegeta detect the strong 5-B levels of power in the scouter by scaning gaara? yes he would, since gaara has this much chackra in him

 

[Arnoldstone18]

yes it does, would vegeta detect the strong 5-B levels of power in the scouter by scaning gaara?

Again I’m talking about inanimate objects like sand. Everything in DB has Ki but the scouter focuses on the fighter’s body.

 

[Fezzih_007]

yes he kind of can, see the daidara fight, he brang so much sand in a second to cover an entire village

The entire village is the size of a desert? And i pretty he spends all his Chakra to do so.

if he hits gaara then sure, but gaara has too much sand to get in his way, he is going to be able to destroy the sand barriers sure, but he is not strong enough to straight up ignore them, it will explode, but then again gaara has too much sand for him to just disperse all of it

maybe, but gaara has just to much sand to counter that also, gaara only needs one grab to trow vegeta down and drown him in kilometers of sand to subdue him

Considering the Ap difference here, Gaara would need to be constantly defending himself to stop the barrage of attacks, making any attempts to attack even more hard.

And again, vegeta can use super explosive wave to get away from the sand, and making a AoE blast big enough to hit Gaara, so him can immediality follow up.

no it isn't, it is but a third of what ki is made of, it is not ki yet

Semantics mano, is still a form of Ki, and Scouters don't detect that.

 

[TheGodOfICE777]

i don't think i understood what you said, yeah vegeta gets an amp in speed, but we don't know by how much


yes he kind of can, see the daidara fight, he brang so much sand in a second to cover an entire village


if he hits gaara then sure, but gaara has too much sand to get in his way, he is going to be able to destroy the sand barriers sure, but he is not strong enough to straight up ignore them, it will explode, but then again gaara has too much sand for him to just disperse all of it


maybe, but gaara has just to much sand to counter that also, gaara only needs one grab to trow vegeta down and drown him in kilometers of sand to subdue him


no it isn't, it is but a third of what ki is made of, it is not ki yet


it detects ki inside a thing(body) if another thing also has ki in it then it would detect since both are basically the same

not that it matters much since gaara would have that much chackra in him since he is the font that makes the sand 5-B


yes it does, would vegeta detect the strong 5-B levels of power in the scouter by scaning gaara? yes he would, since gaara has this much chackra in him

Note: It has been stated numerous times across various sources in the series that a larger ki means greater statistics -- statistics such as strength[1] and overall power[2], speed[3], aerial capabilities[4], destructive capacity[4], and defense[4].

The entire village is the size of a desert? And i pretty he spends all his Chakra to do so.


Considering the Ap difference here, Gaara would need to be constantly defending himself to stop the barrage of attacks, making any attempts to attack even more hard.

And again, vegeta can use super explosive wave to get away from the sand, and making a AoE blast big enough to hit Gaara, so him can immediality follow up.

Semantics mano, is still a form of Ki, and Scouters don't detect that.

This is a good explanation for Vegeta winning

 

[omegabronic]

Again I’m talking about inanimate objects like sand. Everything in DB has Ki but the scouter focuses on the fighter’s body.

not everything in db has ki, it has denki, which is a part of ki, regardless, gaara would have that much ki/chakcra inside him for vegeta to see that he isn't not worth his time

The entire village is the size of a desert?

he has the entire desert at his disposal, i think i could have worded better, he can cover good kilometers with it tho

And i pretty he spends all his Chakra to do so.

he did that in the end of a fight that he was beaten up and almost unconscious

Considering the Ap difference here, Gaara would need to be constantly defending himself to stop the barrage of attacks, making any attempts to attack even more hard.

sand protects without his attention, it is instinctive, he has more than enough to do it constantly, he can spam as much as vegeta

And again, vegeta can use super explosive wave to get away from the sand, and making a AoE blast big enough to hit Gaara, so him can immediality follow up.

you just argued that he would fly realy far away, how big is this AoE blast?

Semantics mano, is still a form of Ki, and Scouters don't detect that.

not really, the scouter detects ki, denki is not ki but a small part of what makes ki, well ki, so it is not comparable to this situation

Note: It has been stated numerous times across various sources in the series that a larger ki means greater statistics -- statistics such as strength[1] and overall power[2], speed[3], aerial capabilities[4], destructive capacity[4], and defense[4].

this does not change my point at all, i did say that it was an amp in speed