Various Medaka Box Changes

[Antvasima]

I am personally fine with your suggestion.

 

[Firephoenixearl]

On the clones thing: How about we just lay out the facts? We can literally just write on the profile "She has never demonstrated combining Eight Hundred Lies and Metonymy, even in extended battles that she has lost. The fact that her clones produced by Eight Hundred Lies can use the style themself might suggest that they are able to use her styles, though. The secondary clones have not demonstrated this ability."

That would be fine. However the "never demonstrated it even in extended battles that she has lost" sounds misleading as we never see what happens in her fight against Medaka so we can't say for sure whether she used it or not, so it might give people the wrong idea.
So something like:

"It is unknown whether she can combine both EHL and Metonymy. The fact that her clones are capable of using EHL suggests that they might be able to use Metonymy as well, however they have never demonstrated it."

Is what i would personally prefer.

 

[DontTalkDT]

I feel like it's relevant to mention that she didn't do it on screen, even though it would have been the rational thing for her to do. Even if we didn't see most of the fight. Also worth to mention the distinction between clone generations.
So maybe:

She has never demonstrated combining Eight Hundred Lies and Metonymy in any on-screen parts of her battles. The fact that her clones produced by Eight Hundred Lies can use the style themself might suggest that they are able to use her styles, though. The secondary clones have not demonstrated this ability.

 

[Bobsican]

I don't quite understand the question, sorry.

You know, regarding the Big Bang stuff for this verse as it was mentioned before, it is seen here

 

[Agnaa]

I'm fine with either of DT's proposed wordings.

 

[Firephoenixearl]

@DontTalkDT That one is better yes, but I disagree with the "every layer of clone has to demonstrate the cloning ability", for reasons I told agnaa. And it would be unnecessarily strict, almost ridiculous to demand feat for every clone.

If she did the clones that 3 times instead of 2 would we then be saying "the 3rd layer of clones hasn't demonstrated this ability"?

The simple and most direct implication you get from that feat is: her clones share the abilities. So it's looking far too deep to even try and even come up with a reason why the 2nd layer would suddenly have no abilities despite the 1st layer having shown no differences.

Besides that though the rest of the description is fine, I agree

 

[Agnaa]

If she said anything indicating it would go on forever, then I'd accept that. If not and it was just feats, I'd cap it at the feats. Although I would be less adamant if it stopped at 3+ layers. I feel like 1 layer has any further be very unlikely, 2 layers has any further be somewhat unlikely, 3+ layers has any further be a bit unlikely.

I don't want this example to lead to too big of a detour, but Earl, if a character showed the ability to create a large number of clones, at what number (or under what types of number) would you assume they could make a boundless number?

 

[Firephoenixearl]

I don't want this example to lead to too big of a detour, but Earl, if a character showed the ability to create a large number of clones, at what number (or under what types of number) would you assume they could make a boundless number?

Depends. If there is a medium i would say "until he gets tired/runs out of magic/mana/chakra/whatever the medium is". Then the discussion becomes about his stamina.

In Medaka box though? There is no such thing. Ppl have been using some abilities since when they were children without rest. Doesn't affect the user. So similarly to saying "how long would you assume Gagamaru can keep up Encounter?", "How long would you assume Shibushi can keep up Scar Dead?", "How many times do you think Misogi can use All Fiction or Revive?", "How many times do you think Mogura can use her style or how many times Nienami can use CC style?" the answer would be "is there even a limit"?

 

[Antvasima]

What DontTalk and Agnaa have agreed about can probably be applied.

 

[DontTalkDT]

You know, regarding the Big Bang stuff for this verse as it was mentioned before, it is seen here

Oh, that's what you mean. I grant you that the picture is somewhat unfavourable. Then again it also shows stars and planets, so I guess it should be understood more as a diagram. Am I being too lenient? Idk.

@DontTalkDT That one is better yes, but I disagree with the "every layer of clone has to demonstrate the cloning ability", for reasons I told agnaa. And it would be unnecessarily strict, almost ridiculous to demand feat for every clone.

If she did the clones that 3 times instead of 2 would we then be saying "the 3rd layer of clones hasn't demonstrated this ability"?

The simple and most direct implication you get from that feat is: her clones share the abilities. So it's looking far too deep to even try and even come up with a reason why the 2nd layer would suddenly have no abilities despite the 1st layer having shown no differences.

Besides that though the rest of the description is fine, I agree

It's not like we haven't seen cases of cloning abilities degenerating over generations. Saiki Kusuo for example can also do clones with his abilities, but they quickly degrade over generations of clones.

---

I will try to get to Encounter tomorrow, as these things seem mostly settled now.

 

[Bobsican]

Diagram? Considering the context and what others have said regarding the Big Bang in this case, it seems to represent how Ajimu saw it, so I'll reiterate, would it be valid to be taken as the energy concentration end, rather than an explosion?

 

[Agnaa]

What DontTalk and Agnaa have agreed about can provably be applied.

As far as I can tell, there is unanimous agreement on these topics:

Spoiler: Unanimous Agreement between me, Earl, DT, and Ion

• Speed revamp, including relativistic and having CC able to overcome speed differences, at least up to Iihiko's speed.
• Leaving Hanten as-is.
• Unreasonable Taxation rewording.
• Giving Kumagawa Power Modification.
• Listing Five Focus as Healing.
• Giving Medaka Zapping Study and Erotic Pierrot under a possibly.
• Explaining that Sui Kanaino likely landed on the plane using her style.
• Adding the restriction for Momo's sealing and removing her current matches.
• Limiting Iihiko's possession to Shiranui Village backups-in-training and removing his current matches.
• Changing Kakegae's Metonymy description as outlined in the OP.
• Giving Medaka and Zenkichi resistance to Weighted Words, and listing Weighted Word's most notable feat on Oudo's profile.
• Giving Medaka resistance to Illusion Creation while using Autopilot.
• Giving Munakata extra weapons.
• Giving Kumagawa Power Erasure.
• Abilities that Hansode has used Real Eater on can't be used on her.

Ones with some disagreements are:

• Ajimu's Tier. YungManzi disagrees, and Bobsican seems to have some hesitations about it. Otherwise, I believe that Blackcurrant, Earl, Ion, DT, and I are all okay with "Unknown, likely 3-A, possibly far higher".
• Kakegae's note. DT and I hold a different view to Earl and Ion.
• Encounter. Earl, DT, and I all hold different views from what I've seen.
• Medaka's pain tolerance. Earl wanted to look into the science and see if it should be immunity rather than just tolerance.

If I were to apply these I'd need Ajimu and Kumagawa's profiles unlocked. However, there aren't that many things left undecided, and I'd like to give Iapitus a chance to properly weigh in before applying everything.

EDIT: After talking to Iapitus on Discord, he disagrees with two of the things that had unanimous agreement:

• He disagrees with leaving Hanten as-is. He believes Hanten has a functional equivalent to Alibi Block for speed, that Hanten could contribute meaningfully to Ajimu's arsenal by being able to create any ability, and that doubles are more-or-less comparable to the person they're backing up, which should support other stats scaling. There's some more to it but those are the main points.
• He disagrees with my suggested modifications to Iihiko. He believes that instead of Iihiko only being able to possess Shiranui Village backups, that he's only unable to possess people who would be considered Normals in Medaka Box. i.e. Iapitus holds that Iihiko would be able to directly possess Medaka, and anyone from fiction that would equalize to an Abnormal/Minus/Hero/Not Equal.

EDIT 2: I've also edited the proposed Ajimu replacement profile. Adding Earl's "far higher" suggestion to unsealed speed, changing sealed speed to Relativistic as we agreed upon, and adding "Nigh-Omnipresent with Alibi Block" to her sealed and unsealed speeds.

 

[Firephoenixearl]

It's not like we haven't seen cases of cloning abilities degenerating over generations. Saiki Kusuo for example can also do clones with his abilities, but they quickly degrade over generations of clones.

How many people can you name whose clones have the exact same ability and potency in the 1st generation but the 2nd generation has no powers at all?

You have to at least say that that kind of thing is common to even imply it could be the case for Medaka Box.

 

[Antvasima]

Agnaa's suggestions can probably be applied, as long as DontTalk agrees.

 

[Firephoenixearl]

After doing a bit of digging what i could find was that, having no reflexes would just mean that you would only feel pain later. In other words i could not find anything that could link "Reflexes" and "tolerance to pain" in any way.

But since Medaka Box implies a link im assuming these "reflexes" aren't just the action (the reflexive actions) but also perception. As i don't think it would make sense any other way.

In which case it would still stick to immunity although it would be a case of "can gain immunity to pain" as she would have to turn on Auto Pilot first for that to kick in.

 

[DontTalkDT]

Diagram? Considering the context and what others have said regarding the Big Bang in this case, it seems to represent how Ajimu saw it, so I'll reiterate, would it be valid to be taken as the energy concentration end, rather than an explosion?

You can see stars and planets/rocks in that explosion of light. I doubt that the big bang in Medaka included those things just spawning, which is why I don't think this depiction is a literal representation.
If you think it looked literally exactly like that, then Ajimu should be all means be just unknown. That's a legitimate view as well.
Tbh I don't feel too strongly one way or another. As far as I am concerned we can also just keep her completely at unknown.

After doing a bit of digging what i could find was that, having no reflexes would just mean that you would only feel pain later. In other words i could not find anything that could link "Reflexes" and "tolerance to pain" in any way.

But since Medaka Box implies a link im assuming these "reflexes" aren't just the action (the reflexive actions) but also perception. As i don't think it would make sense any other way.

In which case it would still stick to immunity although it would be a case of "can gain immunity to pain" as she would have to turn on Auto Pilot first for that to kick in.

Nah, not immunity. There are characters that can cause pain via mind and soul attacks. Darquesse and D for example.
Immunities are basically only given if you already lack what is attacked.

EDIT: After talking to Iapitus on Discord, he disagrees with two of the things that had unanimous agreement:

• He disagrees with leaving Hanten as-is. He believes Hanten has a functional equivalent to Alibi Block for speed, that Hanten could contribute meaningfully to Ajimu's arsenal by being able to create any ability, and that doubles are more-or-less comparable to the person they're backing up, which should support other stats scaling. There's some more to it but those are the main points.
• He disagrees with my suggested modifications to Iihiko. He believes that instead of Iihiko only being able to possess Shiranui Village backups, that he's only unable to possess people who would be considered Normals in Medaka Box. i.e. Iapitus holds that Iihiko would be able to directly possess Medaka, and anyone from fiction that would equalize to an Abnormal/Minus/Hero/Not Equal.

Without further reasoning being provided, I would be against that disagreement on ground of them being speculation.

Encounter soon. Can only be a matter of hours <.<

 

[Agnaa]

@Ant Could Medaka and Kumagawa's profiles be unlocked to apply many of them?

@Earl I'm with DT on this one that it shouldn't be immunity. Especially since, if we're just going by MB's own link, they only say it lets Medaka tolerate pain, not become immune to it.

 

[Antvasima]

I will unlock the following profile pages. Tell me here when you are done.

Medaka Kurokami

Misogi Kumagawa

 

[Bobsican]

In that case I support Ajimu just being Unknown overall, although for possibility's sake it can go with the previously agreed-on rating that already mentions "Unknown"

 

[Agnaa]

I'm having trouble doing the speed on Oudo's profile. It seems like his key's only there to give him scaling to Iihiko which seems extremely dubious, since Iihiko obviously wasn't trying to dodge their attacks. There's some stuff about Koga being superior to Medaka at the time, but Koga doesn't have a key for this point of time on her profile, and there's no scans provided.

The weirder thing being that, if Koga did scale to Medaka and Oudo scaled to Koga, going under the old profile logic, he should just be at flat SoL, not likely SoL...

Does anyone mind if I delete this confusing key?

 

[Agnaa]

@Ant I am done with all of my edits for now, but my Oudo issue remains.

 

[Firephoenixearl]

@Ant Could Medaka and Kumagawa's profiles be unlocked to apply many of them?

@Earl I'm with DT on this one that it shouldn't be immunity. Especially since, if we're just going by MB's own link, they only say it lets Medaka tolerate pain, not become immune to it.

I mean suppression doesn't mean "tolerate" it can easily mean "vanquish". To explain where I'm coming from, medaka says there is a relation between reflex and pain. But you completely shut 1 down. Wouldn't it make more sense to say the other is shut down as well?

I won't be too eager on this point as it's no huge deal either way. Just seems to be the implication I'm getting.

@DT I don't think pain manip through soul should be taken into account like that. Otherwise let's remove all soul immunities cus there are ppl who would be able to soul manip a soulless being due to how weirdly they work.

I think weird mechanics are weird mechanics. If someone can shut down their reflexes to suppress the pain, that person cannot feel pain plain and simple. The fact that other weird pain related abilities should work due to not affecting the pain receptors themselves shouldn't be a factor.

 

[DontTalkDT]

@DT I don't think pain manip through soul should be taken into account like that. Otherwise let's remove all soul immunities cus there are ppl who would be able to soul manip a soulless being due to how weirdly they work.

I think weird mechanics are weird mechanics. If someone can shut down their reflexes to suppress the pain, that person cannot feel pain plain and simple. The fact that other weird pain related abilities should work due to not affecting the pain receptors themselves shouldn't be a factor.

We have an official rule on the matter documented on the Resistance page:

Qualifying for Immunity is difficult, as no simple show of resistance is enough, and statements could easily be hyperbole or only apply in-verse. Immunity should only be given when the user in question entirely lacks what would normally be affected.

That's it. You would need to change the general ruling if you want to apply this.

 

[DontTalkDT]

It absolutely does. That mechanism is called "applying the effect". Meaning it is messing with the effect. Im sorry dude but it's starting to sound less and less genuine. If something directly doesn't interact with the energy or durability in any way and instead interacts with the effect, but you're saying it has no mechanism. It's just not true at this point, not even a matter of opinion.

Saying "applying the effect" is a mechanism is like saying that picking a lock is archieved via lockpicking. Answers nothing.
The question is: How can this ability achieve something that would usually require the creation of a certain force and consumption of a certain amount of energy, without the need to do either of this. And that's something the manga doesn't provide any actual answer for. So you can't just assume it can do that.

Unless by "it's messing with the effect" you mean to indicate that this works based on causality manipulation. Then you are at least suggesting a concrete mechanism. That being said, it would either be speculation or a misinterpretation. I assume you are basing it on the scan in the original post. However, in that it isn't actually talking about anything causality manipulation related. What it means with "Effect of the damage" there is literally just that, the thing the damage produced. Like a wound or a concussion. Not the effect in a cause-effect causality relationship. That is made pretty clear by the context of contrasting the damage-effect against the damage itself.

No it doesn't. Because it's inflicting the effect, not the damage. With this logic it's like saying Scar Dead also doesn't negate durability cus it has to inflict the wound, which i don't have to explain why it's flawed reasoning.

As said, it still has to inflict the effect, i.e. a wound or dislocation, via some method. And yeah, as I said to Agnaa, I don't think Scar Dead should be assumed to be able to open healed physical wounds without a limit either, so that actually requires explanation.

Same argument as scar dead. It dealing damage doesn't mean it's working against durability. Cus it's not reflecting energy, it's reflecting the final effect. Energy would be the only thing that would interact with durability in this case.

The final effect still needs to somehow be created on the object it is transferred to.

It does, again this ability works very similarly to causality manip from what this effect thing sounds like. We know what it does and we know how it does it. How that's not a mechanism is beyond me.

As said above, if you think the scan talks about causality manip you are misinterpreting it.

On that note too. Even Shibushi says 'damage" instead of 'energy".

That has no relation to the argument I'm making.

And regarding the "how did the steel frame survive that long?", it's cus Gagamaru can decide when to apply those effects. you can see here when he's looking at the steel frame the steel frame is still intact, then it breaks. It even falls in line with the "pushing away the damage of death.

He said he explicitly needed to use 215 punches to break it. Less wouldn't have worked.
It's not about when. If he had transferred the damage of 200 punches earlier it wouldn't have broken. That's what is said.

 

[Firephoenixearl]

That's it. You would need to change the general ruling if you want to apply this.

Well fair, but as i said iirc there is someone on the site with a certain type of soul manip that works by inserting a soul in you before manipulating that. That type of thing would work even against a dude who lacks a soul so even then it's not full immunity.

Saying "applying the effect" is a mechanism is like saying that picking a lock is archieved via lockpicking. Answers nothing.
The question is: How can this ability achieve something that would usually require the creation of a certain force and consumption of a certain amount of energy, without the need to do either of this. And that's something the manga doesn't provide any actual answer for. So you can't just assume it can do that.

Unless by "it's messing with the effect" you mean to indicate that this works based on causality manipulation. Then you are at least suggesting a concrete mechanism. That being said, it would either be speculation or a misinterpretation. I assume you are basing it on the scan in the original post. However, in that it isn't actually talking about anything causality manipulation related. What it means with "Effect of the damage" there is literally just that, the thing the damage produced. Like a wound or a concussion. Not the effect in a cause-effect causality relationship. That is made pretty clear by the context of contrasting the damage-effect

The thing is when you transfer the effect of something instead of the damage it directly implies durability negation. Example if you punch me and break my jaw cus im very frail. What encounter would do is not "redirect the punch to you" it would just inflict the wound (through unknown means) directly. Because it would just "reflect the effect the punch had on me". If it's reflecting the effect the damage would have on you. If you wanna say "it creates it through energy usage or something" it starts contradicting as it's not reflecting the effect of the damage anymore, it's reflecting it's energy.

As said, it still has to inflict the effect, i.e. a wound or dislocation, via some method. And yeah, as I said to Agnaa, I don't think Scar Dead should be assumed to be able to open healed physical wounds without a limit either, so that actually requires explanation.

The fact that we don't know the method doesn't mean we should assume something at random though. And no, Scard Dead not opening up any wound is wrong no matter how you spin it. It is making wounds reopen it's not consuming energy.

Some of the other answers you mentioned are just repeats so i will skip over them to avoid being redundant.

He said he explicitly needed to use 215 punches to break it. Less wouldn't have worked.
It's not about when. If he had transferred the damage of 200 punches earlier it wouldn't have broken. That's what is said.

The thing is he didn't break just 1 steel frame. And 2nd of all how damage transfers from a human body to a steel frame could easily be weird. For example if you break a finger and transfer it, it won't break the steel frame cus you only broke a small part of your body. So one could easily say to break the steel frame the damage inflicted on Gagamaru would have to be something similar to Medaka's "broke all the bones in my body".

 

[Antvasima]

I'm having trouble doing the speed on Oudo's profile. It seems like his key's only there to give him scaling to Iihiko which seems extremely dubious, since Iihiko obviously wasn't trying to dodge their attacks. There's some stuff about Koga being superior to Medaka at the time, but Koga doesn't have a key for this point of time on her profile, and there's no scans provided.

The weirder thing being that, if Koga did scale to Medaka and Oudo scaled to Koga, going under the old profile logic, he should just be at flat SoL, not likely SoL...

Does anyone mind if I delete this confusing key?

This seems fine to me. What about you DontTalk?

 

[DontTalkDT]

This seems fine to me. What about you DontTalk?

That's ok with me.

Well fair, but as i said iirc there is someone on the site with a certain type of soul manip that works by inserting a soul in you before manipulating that. That type of thing would work even against a dude who lacks a soul so even then it's not full immunity.

You might be thinking of ma boy Vandalieu. He does that with souls, but more commonly grants things a mind for the sole purpose of mind controlling them.

Anyway, that's something you would need to debate in a thread on changing the rule. IIRC we considered that option when we made the rule, but decided that this one exception doesn't really matter. One could say that giving something the thing they lack in order to attack it is essentially negating the immunity before you attack.

The thing is when you transfer the effect of something instead of the damage it directly implies durability negation. Example if you punch me and break my jaw cus im very frail. What encounter would do is not "redirect the punch to you" it would just inflict the wound (through unknown means) directly. Because it would just "reflect the effect the punch had on me". If it's reflecting the effect the damage would have on you. If you wanna say "it creates it through energy usage or something" it starts contradicting as it's not reflecting the effect of the damage anymore, it's reflecting it's energy.

What you're saying is correct to the point that it is not reflecting the punches energy. It is inflicting the wound by unknown means. Problem: Because the wound is inflicted by unknown means there is absolutely no guarantee it is inflicted by means that ignore durability, instead of something simple like, for example, telekinesis.
Inflicting the wound via not durability negating means is not the same as reflecting the energy of the punch. Reflecting the energy of the punch would mean that the energy of the punch doesn't reach Gagamaru and that the energy that reaches the opponent is the same energy as what hit him. Neither of these two things would be the case, even if the wound is applied via not durability negating means like telekinesis. So there is no contradiction here.

It's inflicting the wound but the fashion it inflicts a matching wound on the target doesn't need to be durability negating.

The fact that we don't know the method doesn't mean we should assume something at random though.

True. However, that also means we shouldn't randomly assume something favourable. If we have to take the position that we don't know enough about it to judge, than as a wiki we always default to not assuming favourably. I.e. if you can't proof something ignores durability, then we won't assume it ignores durability. That doesn't mean to say that it necessarily doesn't, we just won't assume it.

And no, Scard Dead not opening up any wound is wrong no matter how you spin it. It is making wounds reopen it's not consuming energy.

A closed wound has a force that holds it together. If Scar Dead cleaves that flesh apart again it has to perform work to do so, unless it uses a durability negating mechanism like spatial cutting. We have options like it just telekinetically prying open the flesh to create the wounds here, so durability negation can't be proven. Options that don't negate durability would need to be excluded.

Oh, and not consuming energy ≠ negating durability. Many esper type fighters don't really have a power source like mana either, but that means nothing for the durability negation of their ability.

The thing is he didn't break just 1 steel frame.

Eh, I will grant you that. Kinda misread there with how they were only focussing on the one that supports the entire structure.

 

[Agnaa]

I feel like even if we know that "moving the effect of the wound" was done through unknown means, those unknown means would necessarily be something that negates durability.

If it just applies 2.3e14 Joules of telekinetic force to try to recreate the same wound, that is going to have vastly different effects on different targets, and imo couldn't be accurately described as "moving the effect of the wound".

The only way to get around this would to assume that it changes how much force it applies based on the durability of the recipient, but how would that ability know people's durabilities?

imo I'd want something else indicating it's not dura negation, due to how strongly the current statement implies that.

 

[Firephoenixearl]

You might be thinking of ma boy Vandalieu. He does that with souls, but more commonly grants things a mind for the sole purpose of mind controlling them.

Anyway, that's something you would need to debate in a thread on changing the rule. IIRC we considered that option when we made the rule, but decided that this one exception doesn't really matter. One could say that giving something the thing they lack in order to attack it is essentially negating the immunity before you attack.

There is also another jojo character that does it too iirc. But the point is, as you can see even "lacking" isn't true immunity. I do get your point about changing the standard though, however if what you're saying is true about the negating immunity i disagree. But that's not an issue for this thread. I guess we should put it as "resistance to pain" for medaka and explain how it works for now.

It's inflicting the wound but the fashion it inflicts a matching wound on the target doesn't need to be durability negating.

Yeah but at the same time that is still pretty much no different from reflecting the damage rather than reflecting the effect. If the TK as you're saying has to cause the wound, it would still be using energy (cus it is causing physical change and therefore needs energy).

And a second point is, is "reflecting the effect" really not implying "durability negation" to you? Cus i get your point of "not assume anything", but the text is strongly implying a relflection through dura neg or causality manipulation.

The 3rd point your example doesn't work cus the damage caused isn't caused by something attacking you, otherwise things like "reflects mental or emotional damage to stay sane" wouldn't have been possible. However if we stick to what the text says and "reflects the effects" (whereas your example would be more aching to "deals the effect" rather than reflect it) it helps in that regard too as well as the fact that he takes no damage (gagamaru) whereas with your explanations/assumptions we would have to assume why gagamaru doesn't take damage from that, basically just a whole rabbit hole to dig into.

We can avoid all of that by taking the text as given and say "it's some cause and effect shenanigans similar to kumagawa", since that's what the text directly states. Anything else would be assuming more stuff that just isn't as consistent and air-tight.

A closed wound has a force that holds it together. If Scar Dead cleaves that flesh apart again it has to perform work to do so, unless it uses a durability negating mechanism like spatial cutting. We have options like it just telekinetically prying open the flesh to create the wounds here, so durability negation can't be proven. Options that don't negate durability would need to be excluded.

You seem to be stuck on the "deals the damage through other means", though here the wound reopens, it's more her controlling the wound rather than her opening other wounds. What you described is causing another wound entirely. Similarly it wouldn't be the case cus she causes trauma too, so her using spatial manip as the means doesn't work.

Oh, and not consuming energy ≠ negating durability. Many esper type fighters don't really have a power source like mana either, but that means nothing for the durability negation of their ability.

Oh nononono. I never mean "doesn't consume energy" but moreso "doesn't use energy to deal something". Example if i make you have a heart attack, that did not require energy, however if i punch you so hard your heart stops, that requires energy. These abilities are moreso the former rather than the latter.

 

[DontTalkDT]

The only way to get around this would to assume that it changes how much force it applies based on the durability of the recipient, but how would that ability know people's durabilities?

It's not really knowing peoples durability as much as just continuing to apply damage until equivalent damage is created.
The ability could always hit with its maximum output and just stop the instant said output created the corresponding damage.

imo I'd want something else indicating it's not dura negation, due to how strongly the current statement implies that.

I don't think we have any statement strongly implying durability negation at all?

Yeah but at the same time that is still pretty much no different from reflecting the damage rather than reflecting the effect. If the TK as you're saying has to cause the wound, it would still be using energy (cus it is causing physical change and therefore needs energy).

Yeah, but the quote isn't saying that it doesn't use energy in any way or form. What it says that it isn't reflecting the damage, i.e. the original attack, but that it operates based of the attacks effect, i.e. the wound. There is absolutely nothing saying that the way it operates in the effect doesn't involve producing a force/energy.

The TK would produce energy, but not necessarily consume energy of the character using it. Many powers ignore energy conservation in that respect.

And a second point is, is "reflecting the effect" really not implying "durability negation" to you? Cus i get your point of "not assume anything", but the text is strongly implying a relflection through dura neg or causality manipulation.

Not really. I would not see it like that. I have characters I am even trying to get into the top 5 strongest rankings with abilities that have stronger cases for negating durability, which I would still not claim of that they can negate durability of characters much stronger than what the ability is indicated to work on. And that for the simple reason that it also is never explained how it works.

The 3rd point your example doesn't work cus the damage caused isn't caused by something attacking you, otherwise things like "reflects mental or emotional damage to stay sane" wouldn't have been possible. However if we stick to what the text says and "reflects the effects" (whereas your example would be more aching to "deals the effect" rather than reflect it) it helps in that regard too as well as the fact that he takes no damage (gagamaru) whereas with your explanations/assumptions we would have to assume why gagamaru doesn't take damage from that, basically just a whole rabbit hole to dig into.

I'm not sure I can follow what exactly you're saying here. To comment on what I think I get what you mean:
-the mental and physical aspects of the ability would more than like have somewhat separate mechanisms or applications. Unless we are dealing with brain-based mental manipulation.
-my example isn't really just "dealing the effect", if you consider more than just the creating damage part. The healing the damage and creating new damage parts together would in fact be more accurately described as "reflecting the effect" than as "dealing the effect".
-The quote tries to explain how Gagamaru does in fact take damage, though? That's what it means to say why Scar Dead works on him: Because he does in fact first get the damage and then just near-instantly "reject" it again, i.e. heals the wounds. That's why Gagamaru has wounds to open in the first place and why we can see Scar Dead open those wounds for a moment.

We can avoid all of that by taking the text as given and say "it's some cause and effect shenanigans similar to kumagawa", since that's what the text directly states. Anything else would be assuming more stuff that just isn't as consistent and air-tight.

No. That would be jumping it the fact that the word "effect" was used in some context and saying that since that word was used it must be causality manipulation.

Words like "cause" or "effect" being used doesn't automatically translate to causality manipulation. Just as the word "concept" or even "changing concepts" being used in some random context doesn't translate to concept manipulation.

You seem to be stuck on the "deals the damage through other means", though here the wound reopens, it's more her controlling the wound rather than her opening other wounds. What you described is causing another wound entirely. Similarly it wouldn't be the case cus she causes trauma too, so her using spatial manip as the means doesn't work.

I didn't say she uses spatial manip and her causing mental trauma is pretty obviously another aspect of the power, forming a consistent general package.

"Reopening a wound" is literally something said in a medical context if for instance a wound that was already healing is forced open by physical force again. A surgeon might reopen a wound if they for instance notice that something got stuck inside. One really can't say that in normal usage of language reopening a wound is something different than causing a wound in the place where a wound was before.

Oh nononono. I never mean "doesn't consume energy" but moreso "doesn't use energy to deal something". Example if i make you have a heart attack, that did not require energy, however if i punch you so hard your heart stops, that requires energy. These abilities are moreso the former rather than the latter.

Actually giving someone a heart attack kinda needs some amount of energy usually, because biology is also just physics and stuff.
Anyways. If that what you're arguing, where exactly do you get the idea from that it doesn't use energy then? I assumed you were trying to make a stamina argument here or something, but if that is not the case I just don't know what you are basing the claim on.

 

[Firephoenixearl]

I guess it's just a difference of viewpoints at this point rather than a better or worse argument.

Well i made my argument, you made yours. Let's just leave it to the ppl to decide?

 

[Agnaa]

It's not really knowing peoples durability as much as just continuing to apply damage until equivalent damage is created.
The ability could always hit with its maximum output and just stop the instant said output created the corresponding damage.

Just applying 5e10 joules and expecting to stop before completely atomizing a normal human sounds ludicrous.

It also sounds like a really dumb way for an ability to function. Why would it limit itself to only recreating wounds for aesthetic reasons when it's capable of doing far more damage?

 

[Antvasima]

I trust Agnaa's and DontTalkDT's senses of judgement.

 

[Firephoenixearl]

Wait huh? What do you mean? Agnaa and DT are arguing against each-other.

 

[Antvasima]

I just mean that I hope that they can figure out solutions together.

 

[Agnaa]

I guess so, I did forget about healing having a limit so the note should be kept in, I never internalized the correlation between tier and level of damage. But I'll still argue for durability negation for now.

Earl showed me a new scan which made me retract my stance on this; I think it probably is fine to treat Encounter as being able to heal any level of damage.

Hinokage says that if Gagamaru were to die, he could push away the damage of that death somewhere else. I think this is enough of a statement for it to be considered resurrection, and so there's no need to worry about "could he heal himself from subatomic destruction?" the answer should be yes, as he can resurrect from death.

EDIT: In an earlier edit of this post I said that DT showed me the scan, that was incorrect, Earl showed it to me.

 

[DontTalkDT]

Just applying 5e10 joules and expecting to stop before completely atomizing a normal human sounds ludicrous.

It also sounds like a really dumb way for an ability to function. Why would it limit itself to only recreating wounds for aesthetic reasons when it's capable of doing far more damage?

Think of it like a character pushing a rock slowly, but using their whole power so that nobody that tries to stop it will succeed. It's not really doing a constant amount of work on something more so than making sure the total force applied is stable by using your entire power.

As for the second: Because that's what his ability is supposed to do. If we go with it being causality manipulation based one could likewise ask "why doesn't it use causality manipulation to do even more damage?" and the answer is that the ability is just not designed to do that. It's a reflection of Gagamaru's mental state after all. In whichever way it accomplishes what it accomplishes it will do so only within the mental pattern it is supposed to represent.

Hinokage says that if Gagamaru were to die, he could push away the damage of that death somewhere else. I think this is enough of a statement for it to be considered resurrection, and so there's no need to worry about "could he heal himself from subatomic destruction?" the answer should be yes, as he can resurrect from death.

That quote has been debated in countless threads before. Basically, it is hyperbole and can be nothing else.

It can't be a reliable statement because we factually know that Hinokage can not have this knowledge, if it were literal. We know he does know nothing about Encounter when the fight starts, we see exactly how the fight goes and we also know that nobody gives any explanation regarding this. All Hinokage can factually know is that he delivered an amount of damage that would under regular circumstances be lethal and that Gagamaru pushed said lethal damage away. That can not be equated to resurrection by any means.
Additionally, as with other statements of 'immortality' and 'being unkillable', something like Low-Godly regeneration wouldn't be handed out without further feats.

 

[Firephoenixearl]

It can't be a reliable statement because we factually know that Hinokage can not have this knowledge, if it were literal. We know he does know nothing about Encounter when the fight starts, we see exactly how the fight goes and we also know that nobody gives any explanation regarding this. All Hinokage can factually know is that he delivered an amount of damage that would under regular circumstances be lethal and that Gagamaru pushed said lethal damage away. That can not be equated to resurrection by any means.
Additionally, as with other statements of 'immortality' and 'being unkillable', something like Low-Godly regeneration wouldn't be handed out without further feats.

Hinokage's statement is far more reliable than any of our assumptions. You would have a point if we had something to go by, in this case we don't meaning there is pretty much no reason for us to say or believe he's wrong/exaggerating.

As for low godly, that's a false equivalency as this is not regeneration, but rather him not taking the damage in the first place or as the text says "reject it". It is similar to how we don't need to see Kumagawa get atomized and come back to say "he would come back from that". Because based on his ability and the wording, it has nothing to do with the damage he receives. Same case for Gagamaru, since his "healing" has nothing to do with regeneration, resurrection or anything of the like, we cannot apply regeneration restrictions, we would obviously have to stop at soul damage since he has never shown to push that away but besides that, nothing tbh.

This is getting more and more similar to All Fiction by the hour.

 

[DontTalkDT]

Hinokage's statement is far more reliable than any of our assumptions. You would have a point if we had something to go by, in this case we don't meaning there is pretty much no reason for us to say or believe he's wrong/exaggerating.

Except we know he can't know that the ability has a death rejection resurrection mechanism, which means we factually know it isn't as literal as you make it out to be.

And you once again make a wrong argument regarding assumptions. The alternative isn't to make a different assumption, but it is to just make no assumption at all. I.e. to just say we don't have the required clarity on the issue and hence won't assume favourably.

As for low godly, that's a false equivalency as this is not regeneration, but rather him not taking the damage in the first place or as the text says "reject it". It is similar to how we don't need to see Kumagawa get atomized and come back to say "he would come back from that". Because based on his ability and the wording, it has nothing to do with the damage he receives. Same case for Gagamaru, since his "healing" has nothing to do with regeneration, resurrection or anything of the like, we cannot apply regeneration restrictions, we would obviously have to stop at soul damage since he has never shown to push that away but besides that, nothing tbh.

This is getting more and more similar to All Fiction by the hour.

There are two huge differences here.

1. We know exactly how Kumagawa's ability works. We have reliable statements on it operating via causality manipulation undoing the event of him taking damage, meaning that if the ability activates it can undo the damage regardless of scale. Gagamaru has no such explanation. Of course, even with knowing Kumagawa's mechanism, we wouldn't give him an equivalent to low-godly scale regeneration if we didn't have proof that his ability can activate even after the brain is destroyed, which would usually prevent mental abilities from activating. Which brings me to

2. We have seen Kumagawa destroy his head and temporarily properly die on multiple occasions, when he meets Ajimu in the dream room. Meaning that Kumagawa's ability has feats of activating after his proper physical death. Gagamaru, once again, has no showings of this nature.


The absolute maximum this statement can be stretched to is that Hinokage felt his fists breaking Gagamarus neck or destroying his heart, typically instantly lethal injuries, and has seen him survive that and by that concluded that he can push away his "death" in the sense of "lethal injury that would cause his death". More than that isn't possible, as we see the fight and know that Hinokage never causes anything on the scale of decapitation or destruction of the head.
However, even this interpretation is somewhat unsupported, given that the actual damage Hinokage causes Gagamaru appears to be less than that, as we see from the redirected damage on Medaka.

 

[Firephoenixearl]

Except we know he can't know that the ability has a death rejection resurrection mechanism, which means we factually know it isn't as literal as you make it out to be.

He can based on how much he punched him/how much damage he could have caused in the mean time. Things which we as viewers cannot conclude whereas he can.

The absolute maximum this statement can be stretched to is that Hinokage felt his fists breaking Gagamarus neck or destroying his heart, typically instantly lethal injuries, and has seen him survive that and by that concluded that he can push away his "death" in the sense of "lethal injury that would cause his death". More than that isn't possible, as we see the fight and know that Hinokage never causes anything on the scale of decapitation or destruction of the head.

What would be the difference between those 2 though (heart stopping and brain destruction)? In both of those cases thinking is impossible and past that, it's just "damage" and can be rejected just as easily.