Various Medaka Box Changes

[Agnaa]

His dura neg and NPI weren't given from anything said, and I don't remember the reason for them being included.

 

[Firephoenixearl]

She'd have to incap/kill all 640,000 anyway to get past them. I see no reason why she'd just only kill the secondary clones, letting them get resummoned over and over, without going after the primary ones.

And she'd only need to incap the main one, the rest could be killed.

Yeah and all of that when she could have continued to double their number (the 800 that could). So unless it was a complete stomp (which we know it wasn't as she had a semi decent fight against just 1) it's not happening. Killing 800 people while incapping one before they can just double.

I don't want to jump to PIS immediately when there are other plausible explanations. imo that should be closer to a last resort, which I don't think is necessary here.

Plausible explanations that explain why she stopped at 640k and didn't go for millions upon millions? I'd love to hear it cus rn it's more implausible headcanon than anything else.

And "i don't want to jump to PIS immediately", yes i'd agree if this was any other verse, but Medaka? The verse where PIS is literally common place? Why even use headcanon when we have an easy explanation that doesn't create any inconsistencies and makes a lot more sense cus Medaka uses this left and right. Namely "PIS".

 

[Antvasima]

I think that Medaka was later briefly shown to have an ability that makes her more powerful when fighting against many people than against single opponents, which would give some sort of explanation other than plot convenience to why she prevailed.

 

[Firephoenixearl]

I mean at that point she would have a ridiculous amount of abilities. And i don't need to explain why things like All Fiction, which was among those abilities, would have been an easy way to end the fight.

But she clearly didn't use that. Otherwise any damage, any sort of fighting at all would have been null. Saying Medaka who is infamous for not using abilities and brute forcing her way through used abilities against them despite her appearing later to be the opposite (due to being damaged), is just not a plausible explanation Ant im sorry.

 

[Agnaa]

Yeah and all of that when she could have continued to double their number (the 800 that could). So unless it was a complete stomp (which we know it wasn't as she had a semi decent fight against just 1) it's not happening. Killing 800 people while incapping one before they can just double.

No, you are completely and totally misunderstanding how a situation like that would work.

Incap the main Kakegae. Now the initial clones can no longer be created for as long as she is incapped.

Now incap/kill the initial clones. Now the secondary clones can no longer be created.

Now incap/kill the remaining clones. Now there are no clones, all 640k have been wiped out, without an opportunity for Kakegae to ever replenish.

Of course, Medaka may have not had this pinpoint accuracy, but if you're saying that "Kakegae could have just continued doubling them forever" is a complete misunderstanding of how her ability would work.

Plausible explanations that explain why she stopped at 640k and didn't go for millions upon millions? I'd love to hear it cus rn it's more implausible headcanon than anything else.

The secondary clones don't have the abilities of the original, or even of the initial clones. This is something that happens tons of times in fiction. Almost every instance of duplication I can think of works like this, with it being a substantial exception when they have the same powers/moveset as the original.

And "i don't want to jump to PIS immediately", yes i'd agree if this was any other verse, but Medaka? The verse where PIS is literally common place? Why even use headcanon when we have an easy explanation that doesn't create any inconsistencies and makes a lot more sense cus Medaka uses this left and right. Namely "PIS"

Well I disagree.

 

[Firephoenixearl]

No, you are completely and totally misunderstanding how a situation like that would work.

It's the other way around.

If you incap the main kekage you have 799 who can make 639k more clones. Why didn't they? Not to mention there wouldn't be 800, there would be 1600 (because the 800 are the first ones, then the real Kekage would be making another 800 which would count as a 1st layer meaning they are 1600 in total, meaning you could easily add more on top of that as the 800 other would also be able to make 640'000 if you don't understand what im saying hop on discord i'll explain there)

So they didn't have to stop at 640k unless Medaka literally blitzed their thoughts which we know didn't happen. The more the merrier right? Why not go for millions?

PIS? Possible. CIS? Possible. Unable to clone any more? Very unlikely as it breaks what we already know and it adds a very random headcanon argument from the "maybe the 2nd layer is incapable of creating clones" based on other verses logic which is directly contradicted as a default due to the 1st layer of clones being able to make other clones. So how many verses can you mention that have "the 1st layer can make clones but the 2nd layer can't"?

Of course, Medaka may have not had this pinpoint accuracy, but if you're saying that "Kakegae could have just continued doubling them forever" is a complete misunderstanding of how her ability would work.

Even if she did (which she definitely wouldn't cus that would mean she knew exactly who the original 1600 clones were, which is a stretch to begin with), she would have to wipe out all 1600 clones before they had a chance to create more.

The secondary clones don't have the abilities of the original, or even of the initial clones. This is something that happens tons of times in fiction. Almost every instance of duplication I can think of works like this, with it being a substantial exception when they have the same powers/moveset as the original.

Literally name 1 where the 1st layer has all the abilities but the 2nd layer doesn't. Not even considering how she calls those clones "me" and saying it's not like the shadow clone. But back to the question, name me 1 case where nothing happens from layer 0 to layer 1 but at layer 2 she has no abilities anymore.

Well I disagree.

It's not about simply disagreeing it's about seeing the feat from the point of view of a Medaka Box reader not some random verse that has nothing to do with it. There is no way you can say "CIS or PIS are not plausible options when talking about medaka box".

 

[Agnaa]

If you incap the main kekage you have 799 who can make 639k more clones. Why didn't they?

Why does it matter if they do or don't? Medaka can get to them later.

Why didn't they? Not to mention there wouldn't be 800, there would be 1600 (because the 800 are the first ones, then the real Kekage would be making another 800 which would count as a 1st layer meaning they are 1600 in total, meaning you could easily add more on top of that as the 800 other would also be able to make 640'000 if you don't understand what im saying hop on discord i'll explain there)

Oh, so you're saying that Kakegae and each of her clones can make an unlimited amount of clones at thought-based speeds with no limit.

I'd rather not wank Kakegae this ludicrously high based on scraps of textual evidence.

Unable to clone any more? Very unlikely as it breaks what we already know

How does it break what we already know?

and it adds a very random headcanon argument from the "maybe the 2nd layer is incapable of creating clones" based on other verses logic

That's a really harsh way to phrase "basic defaults for how clones are treated in fiction". I don't want to treat every piece of fiction as something divorced from trends by default, that would cause massive issues with tons of our standards.

which is directly contradicted as a default due to the 1st layer of clones being able to make other clones.

I fail to see how that's a contradiction.

So how many verses can you mention that have "the 1st layer can make clones but the 2nd layer can't"?

I don't know many verses. I don't know any that explicitly just show two layers, with her adding a lie to her lie, but never mentioning adding a lie to the lie to the lie. I think it's pretty clearly meant to just be capped at 640k, from rereading it.

Even if she did (which she definitely wouldn't cus that would mean she knew exactly who the original 1600 clones were, which is a stretch to begin with)

She doesn't have to take them out immediately, not taking them out immediately just means it would take longer.

she would have to wipe out all 1600 clones before they had a chance to create more.

?????

Not even considering how she calls those clones "me" and saying it's not like the shadow clone.

Epic ******* misrepresentation dude. These threads keep turning to shit with you spreading incredibly misleading bullshit like this.

She said it's not like the shadow clone... JUST MEANING THAT IF YOU HIT ONE THE OTHER COPIES WON'T DISAPPEAR. Not talking about any other substantive differences.

Either you have so little reading comprehension you cannot read the next sentence or you're being dishonest.

It's not about simply disagreeing it's about seeing the feat from the point of view of a Medaka Box reader not some random verse that has nothing to do with it. There is no way you can say "CIS or PIS are not plausible options when talking about medaka box".

They do come up as options but not the first option. That's all I said in my post. You literally said that with Medaka Box you jump to PIS immediately, which is an opinion-based choice of yours.

 

[Firephoenixearl]

Oh, so you're saying that Kakegae and each of her clones can make an unlimited amount of clones at thought-based speeds with no limit.

Never said that, that was the option of the "even if we assume she has no limit". If you assume her to have a limit, there is your answer. She cannot make more than 640'000 clones. But don't say "it's all cus the 2nd layer can't do that". I do have my issues with the "has a limit" but that's another issue entirely and it makes 10x more sense than whatever you're arguing rn.

Why does it matter if they do or don't? Medaka can get to them later.

Yeah right. Why does it matter? Like it's just 640'000 more people for Medaka to fight against. Dude im dumb, why did i think that would help in any way yeah. It's just doubling, trippling or whatever multipliering their current army power. Why would that be useful?

How does it break what we already know?

By adding a head canon limit on the "2nd clones can't clone anymore cus they don't have powers" completely at random even though we know there was practically no difference between real and clone 1.

That's a really harsh way to phrase "basic defaults for how clones are treated in fiction".

As i've said, name 1 verse where this is the case.

I fail to see how that's a contradiction.

Either there is difference between the clones or there isn't adding a difference at any point you want even though there is no difference prior to that is ugh...do i even have to explain how that being an argument at all is weird?

I don't know many verses. I don't know any that explicitly just show two layers

So all headcanon? All the "other verses do this" is all made up then? Assumptions? Is that your main argument here? Things that supposedly happen commonly in other verses that even you don't know. Come on Agnaa.

She doesn't have to take them out immediately, not taking them out immediately just means it would take longer.

And that they would be able to keep on cloning while she takes so long to take them out.

She said it's not like the shadow clone... JUST MEANING THAT IF YOU HIT ONE THE OTHER COPIES WON'T DISAPPEAR. Not talking about any other substantive differences.

Yes, she already mentions it being to some extent different than other cloning abilities in "other fiction" as you like to call it and doesn't mention any sort of weakness.

So any reason we're going with your explanation that has practically no basis and has never happened in fiction instead of using a reason that happens in Medaka day in and day out?

They do come up as options but not the first option. That's all I said in my post. You literally said that with Medaka Box you jump to PIS immediately, which is an opinion-based choice of yours.

If the rest don't make sense.

1. I'd much rather take PIS over random headcanon when it comes to Medaka Box.
2. The other options lead to so many questions it stops being believable at some point.

 

[Antvasima]

Agnaa:

Have you reached any agreements here?

 

[Agnaa]

Jesus ******* christ, I cannot keep responding to you Earl. These ******** arguments of yours that you somehow make about nearly every issue are the only thing driving me away from debating Medaka Box, one of my favourite pieces of fiction, and it's potent enough to make me avoid almost every CRT and thread. I cannot keep responding to them and stay sane.

If someone else agrees with your points I'll respond to them instead.

 

[Firephoenixearl]

Honestly it's subjective. You think you make sense from my point of view?

 

[Antvasima]

Well, I personally think that Agnaa seems to make sense, and agree that Earl has a tendency to be overly argumentative.

 

[Antvasima]

Btw: I find Medaka Box to simultaneously be absolutely briĺliant in its sheer story density, analytical insight, and many hidden layers, and rather dull in terms of actually enjoying the storytelling in itself, as the metafiction is so extremely heavy that it is more like a philosophical text than an actual narrative.

 

[Firephoenixearl]

Well, I personally think that Agnaa seems to make sense

I genuinely don't see it that way, but I said what I had to say, I'll just let people decide.

Earl has a tendency to be overly argumentative.

I mean I've argued no more than agnaa in this thread and if there are things to argue for I don't see why that would be bad.

 

[Ionliosite]

I personally think Earl's points make perfect sense.

 

[Antvasima]

Okay. My apologies if I was being unfair.

 

[DontTalkDT]

Heads up, in case my status posts weren't seen: I've gotten very busy for the next few weeks. Sooo... to not stall this out by trying to write one long response and never doing so in the end, please allow me to reply to one topic at a time.

---

I will start with the universe level stuff for today:

I never really thought about it that way. As I typed this up I was about to concede that point to you, but then I realized that they did copy Ajimu and Medaka perfectly anyway, and Hitoshiki/Kumagawa talked about how terrifying that is. So maybe it isn't right to consider those random guards as such fodder. They are part of the Shiranui village, created by Hanten Shiranui, and are capable of evenly matching these absurd existences.

...Actually, rereading the chapters for this scan, there are two mentions of the Doppelgangers being illusions, which really makes me unsure how to process that fight. Does none of it have any implications because it's just a psychological thing? Can the clones matching Ajimu's AP be dismissed as easily happening from an illusion, while the feats performed on them should still be taken as realistic showings of how the characters would fight against themselves/others?

Regardless, you are pushing me away from this point a bit.

It being illusions could make more sense. Amongst others, it explains why the village focuses on preserving talents instead of creating 3-A entities themself.

I guess so, I never really thought about them that way. Does that mean that any character, even without resistance to sealing, could break out of a seal if they have higher AP than the strongest thing sealed?

As I like to say: Every hax only works through its mechanism. So it depends on how the seal works. Many conventional "body into object" kind of seals have the advantage that the physical body is "dissolved" (and often the sentience of the target taken away), preventing a regular character from taking action. If they can't struggle the power doesn't matter. So that has a mechanism where it's not that easy.
For seals that only seal power it's more typical that one can break them with power alone. Although there are of course also power seals where the mechanism allows for ignoring power.

Regardless, none of that Unknown rating appears to come from copying Ajimu's skills (except for the technicality where Pioneer Flag is a skill rush, which was presumably copied from Ajimu at some point off-screen, but even then the rating comes from the skill's own description).

I mean, if Medaka can't copy stronger skills we basically would need to accept that the universe creation skill can have a weaker version... but yeah, if we agree that she doesn't copy the power of people I drop that argument.

I don't think this is what the manga actually said at that part. The relevant scans are these two. To quickly run them down:

1. Ajimu says she can't beat Medaka.
2. Kumagawa asks if that's because of The End.
3. Ajimu says that The End is easy for Ajimu to overcome, as Live Zero lets her nullify any skill, presumably including The End. But that she still can't win against Medaka.
4. The second scan says this is because Medaka is metaphorically a main character, a rare, unfathomable person who would never lose.

I do not think this can reasonably be interpreted as Medaka winning via The End.

It definitely doesn't say she can win. However, Kumagawa, someone from which we can assume that he has decent knowledge of Medaka's and Ajimu's power, seems to consider the possibility of The End working to a relevant extent. That is to say, that he one way or another doesn't seem to think of it as an immense power stomp. I believe for the big picture it's an argument to consider at least.


Sooo... to get to a conclusion, how about Unknown, possibly 3-A?

 

[Agnaa]

It definitely doesn't say she can win. However, Kumagawa, someone from which we can assume that he has decent knowledge of Medaka's and Ajimu's power, seems to consider the possibility of The End working to a relevant extent. That is to say, that he one way or another doesn't seem to think of it as an immense power stomp. I believe for the big picture it's an argument to consider at least.

I more took that as meaning that Kumagawa didn't know that Ajimu had a skill like Life Zero. And really thinking about it more abstractly, considering how many dura/AP negating abilities Ajimu would likely have (and the many which we know she has), I'd think that if Kumagawa only knew some of her skills, he could have seen The End improving on them as resulting in a possible Medaka win, without implying that The End copies AP or that it could get around Life Zero.

Sooo... to get to a conclusion, how about Unknown, possibly 3-A?

Hm, I would kind of prefer a "possibly far higher", which would require 3-A going under "likely". But if others are willing to ditch that, I'm okay with this compromise.

 

[Bobsican]

If 3-A is based on the big bang stuff, it should be 3-B at most unless I missed something.

 

[Anime_Facts]

His dura neg and NPI weren't given from anything said, and I don't remember the reason for them being included.

I think this should also be reviewed, so Iihiko's ability to ignore durability is also not listed in powers and abilities, only in AP, does anyone here have any evidence that Iihiko can ignore conventional durability?

I just remember evidence that it ignores regeneration and does permanent damage

 

[Agnaa]

I think it may have just been put that way because assuming otherwise causes way too many issues, scaling quite a lot of the cast to Ajimu, despite them all seeming threatened by stuff that's way weaker, but I'm not exactly sure.

 

[DontTalkDT]

If 3-A is based on the big bang stuff, it should be 3-B at most unless I missed something.

If we go by physics the energy concentration in the early universe would give 3-A.
Tbh if people insist on taking it like an explosion and applying inverse square law to it I might straight be back at unknown. The distance can be whatever and the mass-energy of the (observable) universe is only 3-B to begin with (around 10^70 J IIRC).
If we don't invoke either proper physical models or universe creation = 3-A attack tropes the feat is IMO practically unusable.

 

[Antvasima]

Hm, I would kind of prefer a "possibly far higher", which would require 3-A going under "likely". But if others are willing to ditch that, I'm okay with this compromise.

I personally think that "Unknown, likely 3-A, possibly far higher" mostly makes sense, but tanking a small portion of a Big Bang portrayed as a physical explosion, rather than a spacetime expansion, likely wouldn't qualify for anywhere near 3-A levels of energy.

 

[Antvasima]

If we go by physics the energy concentration in the early universe would give 3-A.

Okay. Never mind then. You know much better about such issues.

 

[Bobsican]

If we go by physics the energy concentration in the early universe would give 3-A.
Tbh if people insist on taking it like an explosion and applying inverse square law to it I might straight be back at unknown. The distance can be whatever and the mass-energy of the (observable) universe is only 3-B to begin with (around 10^70 J IIRC).
If we don't invoke either proper physical models or universe creation = 3-A attack tropes the feat is IMO practically unusable.

I really think the Big Bang page should get edited accordingly so if it's a purely physical explosion, it's just 3-B, rather than straight up 3-A without better reason in that case.

 

[Antvasima]

I think that going by energy concentration seems best.

 

[Ionliosite]

Yeah, I agree that DT makes sense. Ant's proposal of "Unknown, likely 3-A, possibly far higher" seems like the most accurate looking at the discussion.

 

[Bobsican]

I think that going by energy concentration seems best.

May I ask why?

 

[Antvasima]

Because DontTalkDT tends to know the currently prevailing scientific theories quite well, and the author of Medaka Box is far from uninformed enough to think that the Big Bang was an actual explosion.

 

[Bobsican]

Well, that's correct if it's really what he mentioned, meaning that it's only an acceptable possibility if the other premise matches up as well for indexing purposes, aka, the Big Bang in this case not being an explosion and just the energy concentration, which requires the assumption of that being the case by default, as author intent doesn't necessarily relates to how the event actually happens.
So, I'll ask, is the default assumption over a Big Bang happening in a verse to be the energy concentration, or the explosion? Unless the visuals suggest more the former, the latter may be more reasonable to default to.

 

[Antvasima]

It depends on if the event was explicitly shown in some manner, and likely on what the prevailing scientific theories were at the time.

 

[YungManzi]

bump

 

[Bobsican]

It depends on if the event was explicitly shown in some manner, and likely on what the prevailing scientific theories were at the time.

Let's see what DontTalkDT thinks over this case then, as it's clear there's no further context to provide.

 

[Antvasima]

Okay.

@DontTalkDT

Are you willing to help us out a bit more here please?

 

[DontTalkDT]

Are you willing to help us out a bit more here please?

Sorry for the delay. I wanted to do one shorter reply a day, but between classes and troublesome problems with my sleep rhythm, I didn't manage to do so in the end.
That said, while my classes are still not done I have a bit more time now as I have finished some of them. So I can reply here again.

So, I'll ask, is the default assumption over a Big Bang happening in a verse to be the energy concentration, or the explosion? Unless the visuals suggest more the former, the latter may be more reasonable to default to.

We usually default to assuming cosmology works as similar to our real-life one as possible unless we have something showing that it doesn't.
That essentially comes with assuming that physics is the same in all verses. It would just be difficult to evaluate feats if we didn't do this.

---

On the clones thing: How about we just lay out the facts? We can literally just write on the profile "She has never demonstrated combining Eight Hundred Lies and Metonymy, even in extended battles that she has lost. The fact that her clones produced by Eight Hundred Lies can use the style themself might suggest that they are able to use her styles, though. The secondary clones have not demonstrated this ability."

I will get to the Encounter debate when everything else is taken care of. I think that will be the debate that takes the most focus.

 

[Antvasima]

No problem. Thank you for helping out.

 

[Agnaa]

Bump? I dunno if DT's still doing other stuff or just forgot about this thread.

 

[InfiniteDay]

Agree with this, and Ants tier proposal.

 

[Bobsican]

We usually default to assuming cosmology works as similar to our real-life one as possible unless we have something showing that it doesn't.
That essentially comes with assuming that physics is the same in all verses. It would just be difficult to evaluate feats if we didn't do this.

Okay, for confirmation's sake, then it's visually close enought to the energy concentration, rather than an explosion?

 

[DontTalkDT]

Bump? I dunno if DT's still doing other stuff or just forgot about this thread.

I was kinda waiting on agreement or disagreement on my last proposal regarding the clones thing. As said, I will get to Encounter being hax once that's the only issue left.

Okay, for confirmation's sake, then it's visually close enought to the energy concentration, rather than an explosion?

I don't quite understand the question, sorry.