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Agnaa

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Giving Ajimu A Tier​

I would like to replace Najimi Ajimu's profile with something more like this draft.

For the more minor changes:
  • Blackcurrant91 split her profile into two keys; sealed and unsealed.
  • I've given her concrete speed ratings, in the first key she outspeeds base Medaka but is slower than light (I'll explain why outspeeding base Medaka is no longer SoL later). In her second key she scales to fighting Iihiko a hundred million times without dying; she should be comparable to him. EDIT: Earl thinks he unsealed speed should also get "possibly far higher", which I'm not against adding.
  • I've given her Superhuman LS in her first key for lifting a soccer goal with one hand.
  • I've reworded Stamina to remove mentions of her skill rushes, but kept the rating as it was justified anyway.
  • I've reworded Range to remove mentions of her skill rushes, but kept the rating (and added Interdimensional for Alibi Block being able to bring her to metaphysical realms) as it was justified anyway.
  • I've reworded Intelligence. It's not that she ignored the actions of one person, she just refuses to use the Omniscience she can legitimately tap into.
  • I've removed her Weakness. We've for a long time held on the other MB profiles that the stuff about her losing to protagonists has more to do with their supernatural luck, rather than a legitimate weakness of her own.
Now for the more meaty stuff. Her sealed AP is "Unknown, at least 8-B". She's sealed by Bookmaker so should be at Kumagawa's level, if not higher. I also think I remember something about her being stronger than Medaka while sealed, but I don't have the scans for that so I haven't included it.

And now for the flat-out controversial stuff. I recommend that her unsealed AP should be "At least 3-B, likely 3-A, possibly far higher".

To explain why I think this is justified now when she's been consistently put at Unknown in the past, allow me to give a brief history lesson from my perspective.

Why Is Ajimu Unknown?​

I believe this mainly stems from people being unable to agree on a tier for her. This may seem obvious but, for a while, there were legitimate arguments that reasonable people could believe that would put her at 8-B, 5-C, 4-C, 3-B, 3-A, High 3-A, Low 2-C, 2-C, 1-B, and 1-A. As such there was nothing that people could agree on to rally behind, the low ends were too low, the high ends were too high, and the middle ends assumed too much or too little.

So why do I think 3-B/3-A are acceptable now when they were too much of a reach before? I believe I've picked up on some details that were overlooked before. I believe there were three main reasons people disagreed with 3-B/3-A.

The Big Bang was an expansion of 4-D space-time rather than a physical explosion, so tanking it isn't a quantifiable feat. While this is accurate to cases like those, I don't believe Medaka Box's big bang was an expansion of 4-D space-time. While she was born before the universe into nothingness from nothingness, she continued to age and wait. It is literally impossible to age or wait 3 quadrillion years before time exists. With there being no evidence supporting MB's big bang being a 4-D space-time expansion, and there being this piece of evidence against it, I think we can reasonably put it as a physical explosion.

Ajimu has quadrillions of skills, including some on skill rushes that would make her non-corporeal, so we can't say she tanked it physically. Putting aside my massive grievances with the skill rushes, we have a strong but subtle indication that she didn't have her skills at this time. These two scans from Chapter 140 (particularly the last panel of the first scan, and the first panel of the second scan) make it clear that Ajimu acquired her skills after the universe was created.
I was "gifted" for having been born from nothing, and I was even more "gifted" when the universe was made. For such a wish to have been fulfilled, there was no way this could be real. I thought that since it was all fake, the people, the masses and events were all irrelevant. From then on, my goal was to find the "impossible"... And during my journey I accumulated all these skills. Everything I thought I couldn't do, eventually became easy to do.
After the universe was made her philosophy was changed and she started seeing reality as fictional, from then she tried to find something impossible to prove that it was real (her logic here makes more sense if you reread the chapter), and during that journey for the impossible she accumulated these skills.

Thus, I think it's fair to say that she survived the Big Bang physically.

Even if she did survive it, it's a durability feat; it doesn't scale to her AP. During the fight against the Doppelgangers, perfectly matched copies of the main cast, we see Ajimu multiple times with minor scratching/bruising while fighting her copy. I think this should scale her dura to her AP.

SoL/FTL Should Be On Far Fewer Characters​

It seems like the profiles as of right now scale all characters at all times from the Class -13 arc onwards to SoL because of Kuudou Hinokage's Theme Song. The issue is that people don't really scale to it. Gagamaru's the only person who fights him when using it, and he doesn't react to and dodge the individual punches, he just passively reflects them.

Medaka has Kurokami Phantom: Proper Version which utilizes Theme Song, but she can only use it 3 times a day; most of the time she's far slower. That's an important part of the last trial in the Kurokami Successor arc. Hell, we know from those chapters that Kurokami Phantom outspeeds Kumagawa.

So who does scale then? I believe there's a looser interpretation and a stricter interpretation.

The looser interpretation has Iihiko scaling to Kurokami Phantom when he calls it "slow". This scales to Nienami as Kakegae could fight Iihiko when copying Nienami. From scaling to Nienami, it scales to pretty much everyone, all the suitors and all the other combatants, from the Jet Black Bride arc onwards.

I think this causes some major weirdness with the fight between Medaka and Iihiko. During that fight she uses Kurokami Phantom while in End God Mode, which is stated to be faster than Kurokami Phantom Complete while barefoot, which is stated to be faster than Kurokami Phantom Complete while wearing shoes, which is stated to be faster than Kurokami Phantom Proper Version, which Iihiko called slow... Yet Iihiko was able to dodge Medaka's fastest technique here from very close range.

So are we really supposed to believe that everyone in the past 3 arcs is faster than Medaka's technique here? Everyone, paradoxically including herself, is faster than a speed boost which is faster than a speed boost which is faster than a speed boost which is faster than a speed boost on base Medaka?

I have an alternative explanation; what if Contradictory Conjunction lets characters overcome speed differences like that? We know that it lets characters overcome AP/Dura differences, and the description of the ability is so incredibly broad (literally letting the character manifest impossible outcomes) that I think it'd be really strange if it couldn't affect anything besides AP.

From this reasoning, Nienami, Fukurou, Kakegae, and Zenkichi would only scale because of Contradictory Conjunction, meaning it doesn't end up scaling to the other characters or suitors. Leaving the people who scale as:
  • Kuudou Hinokage scales to SoL while using Theme Song.
  • Medaka scales to SoL while using Kurokami Phantom Proper Version, FTL while using Kurokami Phantom otherwise.
  • Iihiko and Ajimu scale to FTL.
We should also mention Contradictory Conjunction in the speed sections of Nienami/Fukurou/Zenkichi, either saying "Unknown when using Contradictory Conjunction" like their AP, or saying "likely higher when using Contradictory Conjunction" as Zenkichi's speed currently says.

EDIT 1: Because of this scan which Iapitus pointed out earlier, everyone from the end of the Kurokami Successor Arc onward should probably have Relativistic speeds. This would be Medaka, sealed Ajimu, all the suitors, and Kumagawa/Emukae/Naze should get new keys.

More Specific Changes​

Dealing With Hanten​

With Ajimu getting a tier, what should we do with Hanten? Frankly I'm not sure, the current profile has him scaling to Ajimu but I'm not sure if that's accurate. Hanten was created by Ajimu to act as a backup, but if it weren't for her choice to stall Iihiko she likely would have outlived Hanten. I feel like this means he's somewhat below Ajimu, at least in regards to AP/Dura. We haven't really seen him perform anything in combat either, the closest things we have are him helping Medaka when she destroyed the moon (possibly scaling to Medaka/the moon) and probably being somewhat weaker than Ajimu (possibly scaling to 3-B/3-A). There's also the weirdness of him following Ajimu around; he never follows her into the dream world/people's hearts so he likely doesn't have an equivalent for Alibi Block, so how does he follow her around in reality? We never really see Ajimu darting around from location to location at full speed, so it's hard to say if he'd even need to scale to her to follow her around.

Thus, I think Hanten should stay at Unknown stats, with the ambiguity I've brought up replacing the current descriptions of "Comparable to Ajimu" and "Capable of following Ajimu everywhere she goes".

Also I think Hanten should have Unknown Intelligence, idk about saying he's intellectually comparable to Ajimu. Hansode worked as Medaka's backup for a while and we don't give her comparable intelligence.

Kakegae's Note​

I believe we've misunderstood the nature of Kakegae Yuzuriha's Metonymy because of the obscure word-choice, the description on the Medaka Box wiki, and its limited use canonically. Metonymy is a broad figure of speech where something is referred to by the name of something closely associated with it. Considering how broad Mogura Kugurugi and Sui Kanaino's figure of speech Styles are, I find it hard to believe that Metonymy would exclusively be an ability that lets Kakegae transform into others; it should likely be able to replace other things with associated concepts. Now, I'm not asking to have this other application added to her profile, but a broader power like this makes little sense to be treated as mutually exclusive with 800 Lies. We've seen Fukurou use multiple different Styles in close succession.

But why didn't she use them both against Iihiko? All the other Suitors were heavily weakened from Iihiko's earlier attack, giving them all limited uses of their abilities. Joutou could only de-age one person temporarily, the vibration Nienami passed on would soon fade. I think her not using both could be chalked up to not having enough of a voice left to use both (or PIS).

But why didn't she use them both against Medaka? This is a bit bigger of a reach, Kakegae can only copy people not improve upon them, so maybe she thought that her own skillset would have at least had a chance of overpowering Medaka; if she just copied Medaka it could have reached a draw. This makes less sense when you consider that it'd be 640,000 Medakas vs 1, but maybe this could be chalked up to CIS?

EDIT 3: After discussing it with DontTalk, I think it's fair to say that the clones may not be able to use all of Kakegae/Fukurou's abilities, just Metonymy for Kakegae and all of Fukurou's for any clones he makes, so the note should be reworded in line with this. This would still change functionality a substantial amount, as Kakegae herself can copy someone else, and fight alongside 639,999 clones of herself.

Volume Extra Additions​

Discord user persia_n recently did a translation of the Medaka Box Volume Extras. The English grammar/spelling is a bit off, but I think I get the gist enough for various character upgrades/downgrades/clarifications.
  • Oudo Miyakonojou's Unreasonable Taxation works by subtracting an opponent's electromagnetic signature. This makes more sense than the current explanation of "He projects electrical waves into the opponent's heart", so I'll reword its description. Source.
  • Since Gagamaru Chougasaki's Encounter redirects the effects of the damage not the damage itself, skills like Scar Dead can hurt him, but he can also redirect the damage made by it somewhere else. On top of this, as a matter of principle he doesn't redirect the damage to the cause of it. I'll need to reword his Weaknesses section to include both of these. Source.
    • EDIT 1: Earl brought up that this should likely let Gagamaru redirect higher-tiered attacks, and also to negate durability when redirecting them, as he's only moving the effects of the damage.​
    • EDIT 3: DontTalk brought up that we still give limits for healing abilities, so I think the note should be kept for what Gagamaru can survive, but that he should still be able to negate durability when moving the effects of the damage.​
    • EDIT 4: Earl showed me this scan where Hinokage says that Gagamaru could push away his death, since that's pretty much as good as healing can get, I don't think a note is necessary; Gagamaru should be able to push away any damage.​
  • Misogi Kumagawa turned Hundred Gauntlets, a harmless ability that swaps cause and effect, to All Fiction, the ability that denies the existence of cause and effect. I should clarify on Najimi Ajimu's page that Hundred Gauntlets is a harmless ability like that, and Kumagawa should get Limited Power Modification for being able to turn an ability into a different one. Source.
  • Aoki Aka's skill Five Focus lets her fix wounds, injuries, and fractures. This was pretty well-known but hasn't been included on Medaka Kurokami or Najimi Ajimu's profiles, so I'll add it. Source.
  • Iya Renpei has the skill Zapping Study, that lets her control intelligence, lowering the target's IQ at will. Usa Hannyaji has the skill Erotic Pierrot, which lets her control lust, stimulating the target's libido at will. If Medaka had them, she would be able to decrease or increase both at free will. Ajimu suggests here that she may introduce Medaka Kurokami to someone who's experienced those skills so Medaka can learn them. We don't have any confirmation or denial about whether this happened, so I'd like to give Medaka Mind Manipulation and Empathic Manipulation under a "possibly". Source.
  • Wanizuka observes that Sui Kanaino likely used her Style to land on their plane's wing. As such, I would like to add to her NA&T section a brief mention that she has an unnamed application of her style that let her land on a plane's wing. Source.
  • Momo Momozono can only seal people who she knows the name of, massively nerfing her power. With this restriction I think all of her matches may need to be removed. Source.
  • Hanten Shiranui says that he's not a human, and that a more appropriate definition would be "the will of the world to preserve good things", and that he's comparable to phenomena like "natural selection" and "survival of the fittest". I'm not quite sure exactly what this implies, maybe Abstract Existence? I'd like some help with hammering out this one. Source.
    • EDIT 1: Earl thinks "possibly Abstract Existence" would work, that sounds fine enough to me.
    • EDIT 2: DontTalk pointed out that this sort of thing usually isn't enough by itself to give Abstract Existence, so I guess this weirdness just won't result in any ability.​
  • Iihiko Shishime currently has broadly applicable possession because of this scan saying that if Medaka succeeds in defeating Iihiko she'll become the target of the legend. This was believed to be the same phenomena that made him possess Hansode when he initially died. I used to argue against this interpretation, as broader context in the chapter implied this was talking about the Shiranui Village manually preserving Iihiko, and that they'd start preserving Medaka instead if she won, but the exact wording in the former scan made people doubt this interpretation. However, this extra material ends up spelling out my interpretation. "Because a common man like Zenkichi defeated Iihiko, the imperative that pushed me to preserve Iihiko has decayed... If Medaka had defeated Iihiko, then the Shiranui Village would have had to start preserving her." The details of the possession aren't mentioned on the profile, so I want to add a brief description that it merely lets him inhabit the next Shiranui Village backup. With this significant nerf many of his matches may need to be removed.
  • Kakegae Yuzuriha could've become a copy of Medaka and Iihiko. I think it should be explicitly mentioned on her profile that she could become a copy of them and Nienami, and I think this transformation should be usable in matches. Source.
    • EDIT 1: After talking about it with Earl, I think some wording in line with the following should be put in Metonymy's description: "This gives her the potential to transform into anyone she knows, including Namanie, Medaka, and Iihiko, becoming their equals."​

Manga Reread Additions​

I'm part of my way through a reread of the manga and I've noticed some things that are missing from profiles. I figured I'd lump a few here and leave the rest for a later CRT.

Future Revisions​

While I may never get around to these due to the tremendous workload involved, this series is in dire need of an AP revision, the 8-B feat that everyone scales off of isn't actually 8-B, Medaka and Zenkichi's profiles are frankly awful with the way their keys are organized, some other profiles need key changes, and I know there's many more changes that will come from my reread. I would appreciate other people picking up/helping with some of those if they can.

Edits​

Whenever I change my mind on some part of this during the thread, I'll edit my new position into this post with a bolded EDIT notice. So far I've done 3 waves of these edits.
 
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Even if Ajimu tanked the Big Bang and it wasn't creating time, it sounds like from Ajimu's perspective, it was just a thing that happened, nothing special. If the intent is to eliminate her low ends from the discussion, why not put her at "At Least 3-A"?

And what was the quote? I don't remember anything implying she aged, even if time was passing by her.
 
She's put at "At least 3-B, likely 3-A, possibly far higher" because we're not sure where she was standing relative to the big bang; close proximity would be 3-A, more distance would drop it down to 3-B.

Her aging comes from her stated age being well above the age of the universe. I can't quickly pull up the scan, but I doubt you'd challenge the accuracy of that age number anyway.
 
Her aging comes from her stated age being well above the age of the universe. I can't quickly pull up the scan, but I doubt you'd challenge the accuracy of that age number anyway.
I mean, that alone wouldn't prove she aged in numbers before the universe was created. Of course, from our understanding, her "age" would naturally be greater than the universe because she existed before the universe existed.

She'd naturally be older than the universe for existing before it. That alone doesn't proved she aged before existence.

We don't even know what "well above the age of the universe" means from her context. The statement provides no cap, to say there is a certain number of time she existed before the universe existed would be guessing.
 
She listed a numerical age of 3,402,193,822,311 years. The universe has been around for 13,798,000,000 years.

She didn't vaguely say she was older, she gave an exact number.
 
She listed a numerical age of 3,402,193,822,311 years. The universe has been around for 13,798,000,000 years.

She didn't vaguely say she was older, she gave an exact number.
Ah. I didn't remember the quote so I was going off the info provided.
 
Tanking the Big Bang isn't necessarily a 3-B to 3-A feat, out of how weaker it gets the farther it goes out, IIRC it can go as low as High 6-A dura to take it out of the size of a human not absorbing that much energy and the before-mentioned distance issue, unless she was in the epicenter or so.
 
Oh, then that's fine, assuming that's really the case and not just a visual representation.
It could still use a calc, TBH.
 
Could you ask some calc group members? I've tried repeatedly and haven't gotten a response in relation to this subject.
 
I'm gonna go through and respond to each point individually later, but it looks good over all. However, what about her base light speed feat during the festival?
 
You mean this one? The translation says sub-light speeds, so idk if we can give a concrete rating off of that, since Hypersonic may qualify.

But if people think that deserves something like Relativistic, I'd be okay with rating her and everyone who scales (from that arc onwards) at that.
 
Yeah, that one. Sub-light, not light. I think given the context though it's pretty clear he means relativistic as opposed to something like super sonic or hypersonic, tho sub-relatvistic could fit with a stretch. It's not like he is trying to deceive both the reader and the other characters with a semantic phrasing to make us think she is way faster than she is, so it would need to close to his chosen frame of reference, the speed of light. Its also pretty consistent with everything else, having her base be slower but not magnitudes slower than her higher forms
 
With that we'd need new keys for everyone who appears both before and after JBB in a meaningful capacity, and who only has one key currently. I'd put Kumagawa, Emukae, and Naze down for these.

Kamome and Hansode's earlier appearances feel too brief combat-wise for me, Munakata, Oudo, and Koga's appearances against Iihiko also feel too minor.

Also, the exact time we pick for Kumagawa would change things. I think for now, including his appearance in the Kumagawa Incident Arc, before the fight with Ajimu, where he only has full-power All Fiction would be the easiest to manage. I'd rather put further keys with his abilities jumping up and down in power off until later.
 
Ok i am back. Lemme go through all this.

Since i was there when we discussed this, i obviously agree with Ajimu's tier although her unsealed state shouldn't just be FTL given all of her abilities and stuff she can potentially do. So we should keep the "far higher".

Speed of Light, i am not entirely sure on it not scaling at least to Kumagawa, since he did fight medaka for a while when serious and he would have gotten clapped otherwise, however i would be fine with the relativistic tier for him from the drumming scan iap posted earlier.

I can agree with Hanten, however my only question is, wouldn't Hanten after Ajimu died fullfill his duty as her backup by having replaced her? Since that's the point of a backup. That should be enough reason for him to scale.

Kekage, i mean we don't know whether she turned her "clones" into medaka. Medaka came out victorious yes, but we know Medaka can quite literally beat an opponent that's exactly her equal, and that's not even counting for her abnormal luck. I wouldn't forcefully shove it under CIS in this case.

Volume Extra: I still haven't read these but i'll give my input based on your explanation and scans. The ones i skip means i agree.

Gagamaru. Ok but wouldn't that mean that what he does is Durability Negation? And also that the whole stealthy NLF he has would be gone as well? Cus he is not reflecting the damage but rather the effect. In other words there would be 2 more additions based on that scan. Gagamaru would be able to reflect higher tier attacks and also ignore durability.

Kumagawa power mod. As we discussed, i agree as long as you explain it well in the brackets.

On medaka having those 2 abilities, as i said before i agree on the possibly.

Hanten...hmmm. I am not sure if i wanna consider Hanten abstract just from that but when you consider that he was supposed to be the backup of someone like Ajimu (who wasn't just 1 person), it makes more sense and he even describes himself as not far off from "natural selection". I guess "possibly Abstract Existence" would be fine.

Iihiko, yeah the way Hanten explains it, it makes more sense. So as long as there are backups in Shiranui Village he will keep living. However wouldn't that give him a weird form of Power Bestowal? Cus if the person who kills him isn't a complete nobody then that person would become the legend and be preserved similar to Iihiko. Im not sure if we should give him this or consider it just weird in verse mechanics that wouldn't apply to matches.

Kekage, i don't think it should be kept specifically to Medaka and iihiko. Those are just examples he took. I think short of maybe Ajimu and Hanten (due to how weird their existence is), everyone in the series should be fair game. Although thinking about how the dopplegangers exist, you may even include Ajimu in the ppl she can turn into.

Manga scans:

High tolerance to pain. That should actually be immunity if she can't even feel pain, it's plain immunity.

Power Erasure, i thought i put that on his profile when i reworked his abilities. But apparently i haven't though don't put it as power erasure, just add it on the "Causality Manipulation" explanation like all the other applications.

I never realized that real eater line there. I agree.
 
Could you ask some calc group members? I've tried repeatedly and haven't gotten a response in relation to this subject.
Well, AngSizing is not my area, and surely it isn't either for a good chunk of calc group members.
However, it seems that as there's nothing to exactly scale beyond the point of view, an assumption would have to be made on how far she is from the Big Bang to get any size of it, so it may not be calculable anyways.
However, as the Big Bang itself is baseline 3-A, and Ajimu isn't that close to get to that rating, she should just be 3-B.
 
Since i was there when we discussed this, i obviously agree with Ajimu's tier although her unsealed state shouldn't just be FTL given all of her abilities and stuff she can potentially do. So we should keep the "far higher".

"Keep" is a weird word since Ajimu's speed is currently just Unknown. So you think Ajimu's unsealed speed should be "FTL, possibly far higher"? I'm okay with that.

Speed of Light, i am not entirely sure on it not scaling at least to Kumagawa, since he did fight medaka for a while when serious and he would have gotten clapped otherwise, however i would be fine with the relativistic tier for him from the drumming scan iap posted earlier.

idk why he would have gotten clapped otherwise. She didn't use Kurokami Phantom in the fight, using Kurokami Phantom requires her to stand around jumping for a bit, and even then is a single burst of speed attack which characters have survived and kept fighting (such as Takachiho). Proper Version seems to let her use it without any prep, but she didn't show this until the next arc after she fought Kumagawa, and we know from that arc that it basically gave her an instawin against Kumagawa.

If you're talking about their fight at the end of The 100 Flowers Run, we don't know the outcome of it or how it went down, so maybe Kumagawa did get clapped.

Those are the only 3 Kuma vs Medaka fights I can think of. 1 where Kurokami Phantom was clunky and (as far as we know) unused, 1 where Proper Version existed so Kumagawa got rekt, and 1 where we know literally nothing about how it played out.

But because of the drumming scan I would scale EoS Kuma to relativistic.

Also, do you agree with the looser SoL/FTL scaling, or the stricter?

I can agree with Hanten, however my only question is, wouldn't Hanten after Ajimu died fullfill his duty as her backup by having replaced her? Since that's the point of a backup. That should be enough reason for him to scale.

I'm just not sure that "fulfilling the duty" would make him scale in every way. The only two fleshed-out examples of backups we've seen (Hansode for Medaka, and the little we know about Hanten for Ajimu) don't seem to be a literal copying of every physical and mental stat, things seem a bit looser than that. Hansode doesn't have The End, almost certainly doesn't have Medaka's intelligence, likely doesn't have Medaka's physical capabilities. Hanten doesn't have Ajimu's abilities, just one that lets him sorta function similarly philosophically.

Actually, from the tiny bit we know about the suitors' backups, they seem to have different capabilities. People have noticed similarities between them and the suitors (all of their fetishes correspond to a prominent design feature of the suitors), but for example, one of them has limiters when none of the suitors do. Hell, the actual suitors even claim that not one of them would lose if they fought all of the doubles at once.

I just think this stuff isn't as simple as a literal stat copy.

Kekage, i mean we don't know whether she turned her "clones" into medaka. Medaka came out victorious yes, but we know Medaka can quite literally beat an opponent that's exactly her equal, and that's not even counting for her abnormal luck. I wouldn't forcefully shove it under CIS in this case.

Oh yeah, that is true. I assume you're fine with the note being removed?

Gagamaru. Ok but wouldn't that mean that what he does is Durability Negation? And also that the whole stealthy NLF he has would be gone as well? Cus he is not reflecting the damage but rather the effect. In other words there would be 2 more additions based on that scan. Gagamaru would be able to reflect higher tier attacks and also ignore durability.

I didn't think about it that way, that's actually a good point. With that wording it should be fine to allow it to redirect higher-tier attacks and negate durability.

Iihiko, yeah the way Hanten explains it, it makes more sense. So as long as there are backups in Shiranui Village he will keep living. However wouldn't that give him a weird form of Power Bestowal? Cus if the person who kills him isn't a complete nobody then that person would become the legend and be preserved similar to Iihiko. Im not sure if we should give him this or consider it just weird in verse mechanics that wouldn't apply to matches.

I mean, going by the fight we actually saw in the manga, I think there at least has to be a Shiranui Village backup in training. I would mention that when explaining the possession on his profile.

I don't quite understand what you mean with the Power Bestowal stuff here.

Kekage, i don't think it should be kept specifically to Medaka and iihiko. Those are just examples he took. I think short of maybe Ajimu and Hanten (due to how weird their existence is), everyone in the series should be fair game. Although thinking about how the dopplegangers exist, you may even include Ajimu in the ppl she can turn into.

Probably, but there is a degree of being safe, and it should also probably be restricted to the people she knows a little bit. Maybe the explanation should be something like "This should also let her transform into many characters from Medaka Box, with it being explicitly confirmed she could copy Namanie, and even Medaka and Iihiko, becoming their equals."

High tolerance to pain. That should actually be immunity if she can't even feel pain, it's plain immunity.

I was going to do that at first, but when I reread it for this thread the scan only says she can suppress pain, not that she can turn it off completely.

Power Erasure, i thought i put that on his profile when i reworked his abilities. But apparently i haven't though don't put it as power erasure, just add it on the "Causality Manipulation" explanation like all the other applications.

Right of course.
 
Well, AngSizing is not my area, and surely it isn't either for a good chunk of calc group members.
However, it seems that as there's nothing to exactly scale beyond the point of view, an assumption would have to be made on how far she is from the Big Bang to get any size of it, so it may not be calculable anyways.
However, as the Big Bang itself is baseline 3-A, and Ajimu isn't that close to get to that rating, she should just be 3-B.
No offense to you but I'd really prefer calc group input. While you don't think 3-A is justified I've also heard a bunch of non-calc people say it should be 3-A, so I'd really want to get a calc group member around to settle it.
 
But because of the drumming scan I would scale EoS Kuma to relativistic.
Ok fair. I agree then.

Also, do you agree with the looser SoL/FTL scaling, or the stricter?
I am not too sure. Cus under these situations the obvious answer would be "the one with less contradictions" (which would be the stricter) but at the same time it would give 4 characters (Nienami, kekage, Zenkichi and Fukurou) practically immunity to getting blitzed. And that is a pretty huge addition.

So i am not sure which would be the safer option here. The stricter makes more sense for obvious reasons but it also is a pretty big addition. I will personally agree with the stricter however due to how contradictory conjunction works and it already being capable of nullifying stats (namely AP advantage).

Hansode doesn't have The End, almost certainly doesn't have Medaka's intelligence, likely doesn't have Medaka's physical capabilities. Hanten doesn't have Ajimu's abilities, just one that lets him sorta function similarly philosophically.
I do disagree with this reasoning because Hansode became a double for Iihiko (to preserve his legend), and she had neither his physical capability nor his immunity to attacks. She only gained them after truly becoming his double.

But now that i think about it that would only scale to Hanten after Ajimu's death and not pre Ajimu's death so.....i am not sure about where Hanten would stay. But i would say he should scale cus we even see him behind Ajimu even in her more meta apparitions (like EP 12 of the 2nd season he is behind Ajimu even there), thing that we don't see for any double.

Hell, other doubles like Hansode and the suitors' doubles have a personality of their own, do talk and interact with people throughout the series and don't seem to follow their original everywhere. Thing that doesn't apply to Hanten. Hanten is always there, so i don't think that it would be as safe to compare Hanten to those cases.

Ajimu even says "i met someone like myself" for Hanten. I would say a "likely" or "possibly" scaling to Ajimu should be fair just because there is more reason to believe he does scale than there is to believe he doesn't.

Oh yeah, that is true. I assume you're fine with the note being removed?
Yes, i don't think there is any reason to even assume she may not be able to use both at the same time. So yes i agree with the removal of the note on her profile.

I didn't think about it that way, that's actually a good point. With that wording it should be fine to allow it to redirect higher-tier attacks and negate durability.
Now Iap can be glad about the fact that Gagamaru became Thunder McQueen.

I mean, going by the fight we actually saw in the manga, I think there at least has to be a Shiranui Village backup in training. I would mention that when explaining the possession on his profile.
Ok fair.

I don't quite understand what you mean with the Power Bestowal stuff here.
I mean, not really a power, but it would turn whoever beats him into the legend. And that person would then have a whole village that is working to preserve his existence. But i guess that would be not only irrelevant in a fight but also including other characters from the series to work so it might not be applicable at all.

Probably, but there is a degree of being safe, and it should also probably be restricted to the people she knows a little bit.
Obviously, im not gonna say she can turn into Gagamaru or Hinokage....wait, aren't the suitors also in the school in the bouquet toss to the future arc? That would mean they have at least met to some extent the other members for them to organize it all.

As for the safe, if she can become Medaka and Iihiko who are easily the most busted characters in the entire series short of Ajimu and Hanten i don't think there is much unsafeness in assuming she can turn into other characters. However that wording you mentioned is good although even something like "She has the potential to turn into anyone she knows" or sth along those lines, so to make sure that she has the "potential" rather than the "capability". To avoid running into a "well she may not know the character" issue due to how different potential and capability are.

I was going to do that at first, but when I reread it for this thread the scan only says she can suppress pain
I mean i don't see how reflexes could only suppress it without turning it off. I am no medic or biologist though so i will do some research on this whole reflexes thing and see if it makes sense scientifically then come here with an answer to whether it would be suppress or shut down. Sound fair?
 
I am not too sure. Cus under these situations the obvious answer would be "the one with less contradictions" (which would be the stricter) but at the same time it would give 4 characters (Nienami, kekage, Zenkichi and Fukurou) practically immunity to getting blitzed. And that is a pretty huge addition.

So i am not sure which would be the safer option here. The stricter makes more sense for obvious reasons but it also is a pretty big addition. I will personally agree with the stricter however due to how contradictory conjunction works and it already being capable of nullifying stats (namely AP advantage).


I'm not quite sure if we already say that it nullifies AP completely, i.e. lets them damage and tank hits from 3-As, we probably treat it as at least able to reach up to the highest we've seen it reach, which would be 8-B/5-C/FTL here.

I do disagree with this reasoning because Hansode became a double for Iihiko (to preserve his legend), and she had neither his physical capability nor his immunity to attacks. She only gained them after truly becoming his double.


I don't think her case is comparable, she wasn't fully prepared at the time, and we know that usually Iihiko's double takes on Iihiko's appearance too. Hanten never took on Ajimu's appearance despite being prepared for this for thousands of years. And for Iihiko's case, Iihiko possessed Shiranui's body, his memories, personality, desires, etc. were all there. Hanten tried to fulfill what he saw Ajimu's desires as, but he wasn't overtaken by her personalities/memory.

Also, when Hansode's explaining Iihiko he says that the situation for him is very different from normal doubles. This comes very soon after talking about how Hansode's Ajimu's backup.

But now that i think about it that would only scale to Hanten after Ajimu's death and not pre Ajimu's death so.....i am not sure about where Hanten would stay. But i would say he should scale cus we even see him behind Ajimu even in her more meta apparitions (like EP 12 of the 2nd season he is behind Ajimu even there), thing that we don't see for any double.


I'm not sure how seriously to take that scene, from its overly-meta nature and its departure from how stuff's usually portrayed. It's the only time we've ever seen Hanten in (what appears to be) the dream world.

Hell, other doubles like Hansode and the suitors' doubles have a personality of their own, do talk and interact with people throughout the series and don't seem to follow their original everywhere. Thing that doesn't apply to Hanten. Hanten is always there, so i don't think that it would be as safe to compare Hanten to those cases.


We actually do get a tiny glimpse into Hanten's personality as its own distinct thing before Ajimu's death. When Medaka gathers Hansode/Kumagawa/Ajimu/Hanten to fight her suitors, she promises each of them a reward, and Hanten chooses a drinking bar. I think Hanten is a safe comparison.

Ajimu even says "i met someone like myself" for Hanten. I would say a "likely" or "possibly" scaling to Ajimu should be fair just because there is more reason to believe he does scale than there is to believe he doesn't.


That got retconned to hell and back. She says there they met 150 years ago, and Hanten later explains that Ajimu created him 10,000 years ago. The initial framing was as if she just happened to find him somewhere, while the later explanation is that Ajimu deliberately created him, and far earlier.

I mean, not really a power, but it would turn whoever beats him into the legend. And that person would then have a whole village that is working to preserve his existence. But i guess that would be not only irrelevant in a fight but also including other characters from the series to work so it might not be applicable at all.


Yeah I don't think winning over an army of fans if you beat them needs to be included in someone's profile.

As for the safe, if she can become Medaka and Iihiko who are easily the most busted characters in the entire series short of Ajimu and Hanten i don't think there is much unsafeness in assuming she can turn into other characters. However that wording you mentioned is good although even something like "She has the potential to turn into anyone she knows" or sth along those lines, so to make sure that she has the "potential" rather than the "capability". To avoid running into a "well she may not know the character" issue due to how different potential and capability are.


Yeah I think I like that wording better.
This gives her the potential to transform into anyone she knows, with it being explicitly confirmed she could copy Namanie, and even Medaka and Iihiko, becoming their equals.
I mean i don't see how reflexes could only suppress it without turning it off. I am no medic or biologist though so i will do some research on this whole reflexes thing and see if it makes sense scientifically then come here with an answer to whether it would be suppress or shut down. Sound fair?

I think taking the statement as it is kinda trumps real world science tho.
 
No offense to you but I'd really prefer calc group input. While you don't think 3-A is justified I've also heard a bunch of non-calc people say it should be 3-A, so I'd really want to get a calc group member around to settle it.
Well, I've checked the Big Bang profile, and it doesn't say how high in 3-A it is (Surely baseline as that's what's meant to make the universe and we have no reason to assume it's bigger than the baseline), in addition, per the Explosion Calculations standards, an explosion becomes far weaker the farther it goes away, so it's reasonable to consider that as the epicenter is baseline 3-A, even an small distance makes it 3-B+ at most, but as a calc is needed for the "+" part, it would be 3-B by default unless a calc happens.

Anyways, I'll ask calc group members to see if they can help.
 
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This is where what seems right and what is right are 2 different things. It doesn't feel right to say they beat 3a's but looking at it from the other point of view, why would being 3a give you resistance to probability?

I can go into the hanten cases but I'm on a phone at 1am so no. Although sth I did realise when thinking back at it is ajimu when saying "like myself" would be referring to a non equal and as we know non equals can be even normal middle school girls so it wouldn't mean much. I guess keeping hanten at unknown would be the best option.

"Army of fans" lmao. But yeah as I said agree there.

Ok you used potential in there so I agree. The wording seems overall fine except for the "with it being explicitly stated", seems a bit out of place. I'd say just go for ".... anyone she knows, including medaka, iihiko and nanami" and add the scans where she states she could copy them on each of their names respectively. Seems a bit smoother imo.

Idk about the real world science. I don't think reflexes even have anything to do with pain to begin with, but I will check just in case. You never know what you might run into sometimes.
 
This is where what seems right and what is right are 2 different things. It doesn't feel right to say they beat 3a's but looking at it from the other point of view, why would being 3a give you resistance to probability?

I guess so, it just functions weirdly and we haven't seen much of it.

Thinking about it some more, there's also the weirdness with needing to be able to get your feelings across for it to be effective...

I can go into the hanten cases but I'm on a phone at 1am so no. Although sth I did realise when thinking back at it is ajimu when saying "like myself" would be referring to a non equal and as we know non equals can be even normal middle school girls so it wouldn't mean much. I guess keeping hanten at unknown would be the best option.

"Army of fans" lmao. But yeah as I said agree there.


Well hey, I'm glad we came to an agreement.

Ok you used potential in there so I agree. The wording seems overall fine except for the "with it being explicitly stated", seems a bit out of place. I'd say just go for ".... anyone she knows, including medaka, iihiko and nanami" and add the scans where she states she could copy them on each of their names respectively. Seems a bit smoother imo.

Alright, I'll update the wording to that.

Idk about the real world science. I don't think reflexes even have anything to do with pain to begin with, but I will check just in case. You never know what you might run into sometimes.

You're free to research what you wanna, godspeed.
 
I am asked to comment here.

The big bang feat and the sub-light speed look like hyperbole.

For the big bang feat, if there are further proofs how the said character tank the explosion physically and waited long enough for that character to meet the "Medaka Chan" whoever, that could be said as tanking the real big bang and is therefore whatever level here stated.
 
How would the big bang thing be hyperbole?

This series in its first chapter has a Hypersonic feat, it later ends up having consistent SoL/FTL statements, the sub-light speed statement comes between those (or at least, between SoL scaling to more than 2 characters), and is an explanation of how she seemed to swing once but created multiple sounds.
 
that could be said as tanking the real big bang and is therefore whatever level here stated.
Well, I've checked the Big Bang profile, and it doesn't say how high in 3-A it is (Surely baseline as that's what's meant to make the universe and we have no reason to assume it's bigger than the baseline), in addition, per the Explosion Calculations standards, an explosion becomes far weaker the farther it goes away, so it's reasonable to consider that as the epicenter is baseline 3-A, even an small distance makes it 3-B+ at most, but as a calc is needed for the "+" part, it would be 3-B by default unless a calc happens.

Anyways, I'll ask calc group members to see if they can help.
@Jasonsith Thoughts on this?
 
I can agree

1. If Ajimu (or whoever that character is) survives a real life Big Bang she would be 3-A as long as the Big Bang is 3-A.
2. If there are other relativistic feats that is good and should be evaluated already and not by the "statements". Being able to do n tasks within a time period can be a speed feat, but the yield will have to be calculated according to the situation.

Example: Say if intercepting one light speed bullet whatever is 0.1 c, the speed of intercepting 3 light speed bullets one by one at the same time can yield 3x0.1c = 0.3 c.
 
I myself am really iffy about the whole give Najimi a rating thing.

I mean...

1) Do we know if she was anywhere near the creation of the universe? If the answer is no, what's to say she even needed to tank it in the first place? She could have just as easily been watching it's creation from afar. Without any clear indication of this, her entire tier 3 rating can be put into question.

It'd be like upgrading a character's durability to tier 6 or 5 because they witnessed their planet get completely destroyed, but we're not shown the destruction/event, nor are we told where they were in relation to it.

2) I would think her being rated as unknown seems to be the best option because of how inconsistent her power is portrayed as. In one of your links Najimi insinuates she can die in a black hole. She's called "All Powerful" by the narrator yet loses in-story and very clearly isn't. She has skills which allow her to "Become God" and "Transcend Dimensions" among other things.



This is coming from the perspective of someone who's only ever watched the anime for Medaka Box and found it quite boring. So maybe these are obvious questions with easy counters.
 
If there are other relativistic feats that is good and should be evaluated already and not by the "statements".

There are not any other relativistic feats.

1) Do we know if she was anywhere near the creation of the universe? If the answer is no, what's to say she even needed to tank it in the first place? She could have just as easily been watching it's creation from afar. Without any clear indication of this, her entire tier 3 rating can be put into question. It'd be like upgrading a character's durability to tier 6 or 5 because they witnessed their planet get completely destroyed, but we're not shown the destruction/event, nor are we told where they were in relation to it.

We don't have a confirmation of how the event went down.

Eh, it just feels a bit narratively unlikely for me for the big bang to have happened quadrillions of light years away, to the point where it had no effect. Destruction of a planet feels different because that's not an empty void where all locations are equal, a lot of meaningful planet destruction can leave some places on the surface barely affected, where the character is likely to be.

In one of your links Najimi insinuates she can die in a black hole.

Black holes negate durability.

She's called "All Powerful" by the narrator yet loses in-story and very clearly isn't.

Her only loss in-story was to a character who negates durability and was immune to all of Ajimu's abilities and attacks.

Also, I don't really take this author's claims of omnipotence very seriously. He once described an ordinary middle-schooler as "Omnipotent but not omniscient" because she had enough talent to pursue a variety of interests/jobs. I'm more interested in the actual substantive feats of the characters, I don't want to say they're untierable because the author called them omnipotent.

She has skills which allow her to "Become God" and "Transcend Dimensions" among other things.

Those skills come from what Nisio calls "Skill rushes". 100 different ability names and short descriptions are given in a single panel. Among those are skills such as:
Death Mes (死刑執刀, Desu Mesu): Seppuku skill.

Beautiful Last Scene (有数の美意識, Byūtifuru Rasuto Shīn): Self-destruct skill.

Last Murder (殺人協賛, Rasuto Mādā): Both sides kill each other skill.

Deathst Moment (即視, Desuto Mōmento): If you are seen they die skill.
Three of these skills would have killed Ajimu if she actually used them, two of them would have killed her opponent, and one of them would have killed the many bystanders. Nothing like that happened, and no other skills were listed when these were used that would have offset those effects.

It also includes skills such as:
Sword Looks (見囮刀, Sōdo Rukkusu): Sword purification skill.

Unskilled (実力勝負, Ansukirudo): Don't use skills skill
In the later-written novels we actually see Sword Looks used by itself. Rather than purifying swords, it's a simple ability that Ajimu used to create a sword.

Later on in the manga we get a precise definition of Unskilled. It nullifies and blocks the user from activating any of their skills for three minutes. Yet, immediately after a skill rush happens where she uses Unskilled, she uses the skill Count Up.

With four contradictions from the short description alone, and two contradictions when we actually get the skills explained later, I do not take these skill rushes seriously. At most I'm willing to consider the ones we can see visually canon, but I dismiss the rest of them. It seems like the names and descriptions were more written for style/filling out the page rather than with consideration for the plot and implications of her having them.

This is coming from the perspective of someone who's only ever watched the anime for Medaka Box and found it quite boring.

That's a shame, imo the anime stopped at the exact chapter where it started to get good.
 
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According to the scan I posted before Ajimu is certainly close to the big bang that we see through her eyes.
I mean, it's a matter of perspective, Ajimu could legit be countless light years away with the Big Bang on her perspective looking the exact same out of just being a round expansion (Meaning that the size is unknown to pixelscale in the first place), so it's too vague to assume she's close in the sense of being a few meters away from an expansion that "barely started".
 
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The first post seems to make sense to me, with the exception that I think that Najimi should keep her unknown tier, or get an "At least 3-B, likely higher" rating.
 
Didn't read anything except the OP, but imo there's only one or two things off:

-What is the problem with like every scans about Hanten? It doesn't match any translation I ever saw in most of what he explains, including the official one.
-I don't really how Hanten's talk about himself isn't about Shiranui village preserving her when he litteraly consider it as such.
-A "possibly higher" would be better if there's like 3 possible rating. Record of Ragnarok's Zeus had a similar statement which was refused till some others feats were brought up iirc.
 
I am not against keeping the Unknown though it doesn't seem like a necessity to me.

Previously we were forced to have her at unknown due to (as Agnna said in the OP) being unable to determine at least some form of ballpark for her. But now that we have a clear tier 3 "feat" that we cannot deny. In other words she can only be above tier 3, something which the "possibly far higher" does imply.

I will remain neutral on whether Unknown remains for Ajimu, as i think it's not a necessity at this point but more so preference.

The first post seems to make sense to me,
I also made a bunch of suggestions below, and some of them me and agnaa agree on. Could you care to check them and give your opinion as well?
 
I mean, it's a matter of perspective, Ajimu could legit be countless light years away with the Big Bang on her perspective looking the exact same out of just being a round expansion (Meaning that the size is unknown to pixelscale in the first place), so it's too vague to assume she's close in the sense of being a few meters away from an expansion that "barely started".
Out of this this may not even be 3-B, that's just the highest reasonable end, as it can be as low as High 6-A IIRC.
 
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