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Can you or Agnaa summarise them please?I also made a bunch of suggestions below, and some of them me and agnaa agree on. Could you care to check them and give your opinion as well?
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Can you or Agnaa summarise them please?I also made a bunch of suggestions below, and some of them me and agnaa agree on. Could you care to check them and give your opinion as well?
(Unsealed Ajimu shouldn't just be FTL, but also have the "Far higher" due to the nature of some of her abilities.)So you think Ajimu's unsealed speed should be "FTL, possibly far higher"? I'm okay with that.
Kumagawa should be Relativistic based on a scan Iap provided.But because of the drumming scan I would scale EoS Kuma to relativistic.
If you need my explanation for why i proposed this feel free to ask.Gagamaru would be able to reflect higher tier attacks and also ignore durability.
Power Erasure, i thought i put that on his profile when i reworked his abilities. But apparently i haven't though don't put it as power erasure, just add it on the "Causality Manipulation" explanation like all the other applications.
(This is just a wording on Kekage).Ok you used potential in there so I agree. The wording seems overall fine except for the "with it being explicitly stated", seems a bit out of place. I'd say just go for ".... anyone she knows, including medaka, iihiko and nanami" and add the scans where she states she could copy them on each of their names respectively. Seems a bit smoother imo.
Time existing before the big bang doesn't actually exclude the big bang being space expansion. There are theories like that. It isn't actually relevant, though, given the energy densities at that time.The Big Bang was an expansion of 4-D space-time rather than a physical explosion, so tanking it isn't a quantifiable feat. While this is accurate to cases like those, I don't believe Medaka Box's big bang was an expansion of 4-D space-time. While she was born before the universe into nothingness from nothingness, she continued to age and wait. It is literally impossible to age or wait 3 quadrillion years before time exists. With there being no evidence supporting MB's big bang being a 4-D space-time expansion, and there being this piece of evidence against it, I think we can reasonably put it as a physical explosion.
That still assumes that the being born before matter existed is fundamentally a physical entity. I can agree that there were many skills she didn't have at the time, but I believe it's a stretch to think of her as a normal human with high stats at that point in time. The mere fact that she could survive in nothingness implies that she already had some sort of superpowers.Ajimu has quadrillions of skills, including some on skill rushes that would make her non-corporeal, so we can't say she tanked it physically. Putting aside my massive grievances with the skill rushes, we have a strong but subtle indication that she didn't have her skills at this time. These two scans from Chapter 140 (particularly the last panel of the first scan, and the first panel of the second scan) make it clear that Ajimu acquired her skills after the universe was created.
After the universe was made her philosophy was changed and she started seeing reality as fictional, from then she tried to find something impossible to prove that it was real (her logic here makes more sense if you reread the chapter), and during that journey for the impossible she accumulated these skills.
Thus, I think it's fair to say that she survived the Big Bang physically.
How does it not? It directly applies an effect, why would the dmg or durability matter?Disagree on the high-tiered thing regarding Encounter. The new description adds nothing in regards to the mechanism, so that is still just as much a NLF as before.
I mean it could be a form of true self similar to how ajimu isn't 1 person. Though im neutral on this.Disagree on Hanten Abstract Existence. Abstract Existence in our terms means either lack of a physical body (Which Hanten clearly has) or regeneration from the abstraction (which we have no feats for). Or, more in general, you have to be immortal due to your abstraction. I don't think Hanten fulfils these criteria, considering that he basically counted on dying before Ajimu.
Oh, i didn't realize.(I edited those into the main post after we agreed on them btw, if someone read through the OP they would have seen them)
So do Healing, Telekinesis and Curses. Doesn't mean they automatically ignore durability. Without mechanism, there is no proof that it can overcome the atomic bonds of matter without upper limit. Likewise, there is no proof that he can undo the amount of damage higher-tiered abilities would deal. That claim would amount to High Regeneration and that just isn't something you get without feats or mechanism.How does it not? It directly applies an effect, why would the dmg or durability matter?
If Hantens statements of abstractness hold any water that would be one indicator, given that he is her fellow non-human.Yeah I guess she would have at least needed to have one or two powers, I still think this really casts doubt on whether she existed in a non-physical form. Existing before the universe doesn't preclude a physical form made of matter, and we don't seem to get any implication that the form we see her walking around as is an avatar/later created form.
The one that assumes contradictory conjunction can fix speed differences in some way.To clarify, do you go with the looser or stricter interpretation of who scales to SoL/FTL?
Ok, let me say that differently. I'm fine with not saying that she can't use them together. However, I am against indicating that she can combine them. If without the note people will still not assume that she can create lots of transformed copies, an application not demonstrated and in my opinion unjustified by just the reasoning that the ability should theoretically have broader applications, then I'm fine with removing it. If removing it ends up having people assume that is possible we should IMO keep a modified note at least.Yes but we don't include that note for every single pair of abilities a character hasn't used together, we include that when there's good reason for it. We don't have that sort of note for Momo being able to use Labels and Internal Time Dilation at the same time. And I think it seeming like a transformation ability and a duplication ability gave us good reason to doubt it, but since Metonymy seems broader I think the note becomes unnecessary.
He's healing the effect of damage and causing damage corresponding to what was caused. Healing isn't directly tied to tier, but it is tied to the amount of damage. If a higher-tiered ability causes not more damage to him than the one he is used to from low-tiered one he can heal them. But he hasn't exactly used it on damage of the scale of immediately making him explode into pieces. You can explain as much in the note if you wish, but the point is that significantly higher-tiered abilities will virtually always kill him anyways.It kinda does, it tells us that he pushes away the effect of the damage; that's how it works. Moving the effect rather than the damage itself should be usable on higher-tiered attacks, as he's not moving away a humongous amount of energy, just the effect that energy causes.
Eh, I don't feel like it does. For precedence on this kind of cases, I like to bring up the Unexplored-Class Materials in The Unexplored Summon. They are straight-up stated to be "anthropomorphized versions of the world’s laws" yet have not shown anything indicating immortality and hence aren't abstract either. Basically, being the physical version of something doesn't require you to have a non-physical immortal true self.That is pretty fair, but I feel like the statement kind of implies that the physical body may not be that meaningful, with the phenomena he compared himself to.
TK does not negate durability, the rest do though.So do Healing, Telekinesis and Curses. Doesn't mean they automatically ignore durability. Without mechanism, there is no proof that it can overcome the atomic bonds of matter without upper limit. Likewise, there is no proof that he can undo the amount of damage higher-tiered abilities would deal. That claim would amount to High Regeneration and that just isn't something you get without feats or mechanism.
Curses don't actually be default ignore durability. That depends on the curse.TK does not negate durability, the rest do though.
It doesn't need to overcome the durability cus it just applies the effect. If i get stabbed by a knife, you get a stab wound. I don't care whether you're too strong to get killed by a knife, you get the wound directly. Saying this doesn't negate dura is like saying causality manip doesn't negate dura. And i don't need to point out why that is wrong.
I guess? Not 100% sure why, but if we accept 3-A durability Ajimu that would make sense. Although there is also the shrugging off damage aspect.I thought Irreversible Destruction was currently considered able to bypass durability.
You think so? In my book power is one of the most common limitations to power copying. Like, if we are talking energy it has to come from somewhere, so more or less random guards being able to generate that degree of power is rather strange to me.This doesn't seem very ridiculous for me, I'd expect most characters that can perfectly copy people to be able to copy stuff within their dimensionality.
Power Seals often are a matter of potency, given that they have to prevent the energy from bursting out. Although, I guess Kumagawa's can be argued not to work like that.Bookmaker's also considered to have durability negation, and being able to bring people down to Kumagawa's level even if they're 3-A doesn't sound that wild to me.
Wouldn't that conflict with the idea that she has the skills at 120% potency? Like, why do we even have unknown rankings for her currently if we say that the potency of none of her copied skills applies to her?I'm not quite sure why we'd put the AP of a skill as an internal thing dependent on the skill, rather than something that comes from the wielder.
I'm pretty sure we do not assume that characters can combine abilities in every way we can come up with. In particular, I don't think we default to clone techniques producing clones with all abilities of the original. It's very common that the ability includes that feature, but not always the case. So, she can produce clones and transform herself at the same time. But a little bit more evidence is needed for every clone to be able to transform as well IMO.My issue is still that we don't really assume that characters can't combine abilities without a good reason, and I don't think "they haven't used both at the same time canonically" is actually a good enough reason, and we don't tend to give that limitation to characters solely based on that.
Yes, we quite possibly can't. In which case the only way to avoid the NLF would be to say that he can redirect damage on Hinokage's level. If it is that he can redirect lots of damage or just receives few is uncertain, but we know a normal attack on that level works. So we're basically back at "it works up to a certain tier".Fair point about healing, but we don't really know how much damage the stuff he's redirecting would have caused to him, as we never see him tank any attacks. To bring things to extremes, he could have normal human durability, and even Hinokage's punches would have immediately made him explode, or he could have phenomenal durability, to the point where Hinokage's punches would have merely tickled. If we're going down the route of the damage it would have caused, I don't think we can say anything about the level it redirects.
He's not moving energy, yes. But that doesn't mean he doesn't use energy to replicate the damage. If you think about the damage like an object not redirecting the damage means he doesn't teleport the object somewhere else, but he could delete the object and just create a new copy somewhere else to shift just the effect. That's of course just an analogy, but I hope it gets the point across.I think knowing that it moves the effect of the damage rather than the damage itself tells us that it would work regardless of the durability. He's not sending 10^20 joules to the target, he's moving the wounds that would have been caused by the attack to the target. Directly inflicting wounds like this bypasses durability.
It absolutely does. That mechanism is called "applying the effect". Meaning it is messing with the effect. Im sorry dude but it's starting to sound less and less genuine. If something directly doesn't interact with the energy or durability in any way and instead interacts with the effect, but you're saying it has no mechanism. It's just not true at this point, not even a matter of opinion.This doesn't.
No it doesn't. Because it's inflicting the effect, not the damage. With this logic it's like saying Scar Dead also doesn't negate durability cus it has to inflict the wound, which i don't have to explain why it's flawed reasoning.To inflict the stab wound it still needs to pry the flesh apart in some way.
Same argument as scar dead. It dealing damage doesn't mean it's working against durability. Cus it's not reflecting energy, it's reflecting the final effect. Energy would be the only thing that would interact with durability in this case.Meaning it needs to work against durability.
It does, again this ability works very similarly to causality manip from what this effect thing sounds like. We know what it does and we know how it does it. How that's not a mechanism is beyond me.Unless it inflicts the stab wound some special way that ignores forces. But that would need a known mechanism to it.
I mean considering how she doesn't even call them clones but instead "myself" (iirc, you can quote me on that one), it would seem weird for them to be unable to use that power. Especially when the "clones" actually used 800 lies (to turn into 640'000) so why would they have access to 1 of the styles but not the other?I think the note should be reworded then, rather than saying that 800 Lies and Metonymy may not be able to be used at the same time, it should say that her clones may not be able to use Metonymy themselves. I'll edit my change in opinion here to the OP.
Why so? I believe they just didn't use it rather than were shown to be unable to use it. We make a big difference between the 2.Actually, now that I'm editing it in I do realize that Kakegae's clones can use 800 Lies themselves, but the clones of clones appear not to be able to. Does this mean we should also give Metonymy (and all of Fukurou's styles when he makes clones) to the initial 800 clones, but not to the rest of the 640,000?
No? Why would we do that? Because that's saying teleportation or dodging Iihiko is impossible cus Ajimu (despite us knowing she has such things) didn't get out of the rubberband's way.Right, but if they haven't shown the ability to use it, and there's a good reason to default to them being unable to use it
because many clones in fiction don't have all the powers of the original, which is even shown in MB with the 639,200 clones of clones being seemingly unable to duplicate themselves further
As i said, seems more like a limit to her power. It's either that or Medaka found a way to limit it to just that.3. Why wouldn't she keep using it then to stall Medaka indefinitely? 640k clones seems to be the limit.
She would have to incapacitate all 800 at the same time. Otherwise they'd just keep on adding 639'200 clones over and over to beat medaka.@Fire I assumed that Medaka ended up incapping the main Kakegae. Seems like a reasonably possible thing to do.