Various Medaka Box Changes

[Antvasima]

I also made a bunch of suggestions below, and some of them me and agnaa agree on. Could you care to check them and give your opinion as well?

Can you or Agnaa summarise them please?

 

[Firephoenixearl]

Since Agnaa appears to be offline i will quote the parts that we agreed on:

So you think Ajimu's unsealed speed should be "FTL, possibly far higher"? I'm okay with that.

(Unsealed Ajimu shouldn't just be FTL, but also have the "Far higher" due to the nature of some of her abilities.)

But because of the drumming scan I would scale EoS Kuma to relativistic.

Kumagawa should be Relativistic based on a scan Iap provided.

Gagamaru would be able to reflect higher tier attacks and also ignore durability.

If you need my explanation for why i proposed this feel free to ask.

Power Erasure, i thought i put that on his profile when i reworked his abilities. But apparently i haven't though don't put it as power erasure, just add it on the "Causality Manipulation" explanation like all the other applications.

Ok you used potential in there so I agree. The wording seems overall fine except for the "with it being explicitly stated", seems a bit out of place. I'd say just go for ".... anyone she knows, including medaka, iihiko and nanami" and add the scans where she states she could copy them on each of their names respectively. Seems a bit smoother imo.

(This is just a wording on Kekage).

 

[DontTalkDT]

The Big Bang was an expansion of 4-D space-time rather than a physical explosion, so tanking it isn't a quantifiable feat. While this is accurate to cases like those, I don't believe Medaka Box's big bang was an expansion of 4-D space-time. While she was born before the universe into nothingness from nothingness, she continued to age and wait. It is literally impossible to age or wait 3 quadrillion years before time exists. With there being no evidence supporting MB's big bang being a 4-D space-time expansion, and there being this piece of evidence against it, I think we can reasonably put it as a physical explosion.

Time existing before the big bang doesn't actually exclude the big bang being space expansion. There are theories like that. It isn't actually relevant, though, given the energy densities at that time.

Ajimu has quadrillions of skills, including some on skill rushes that would make her non-corporeal, so we can't say she tanked it physically. Putting aside my massive grievances with the skill rushes, we have a strong but subtle indication that she didn't have her skills at this time. These two scans from Chapter 140 (particularly the last panel of the first scan, and the first panel of the second scan) make it clear that Ajimu acquired her skills after the universe was created.

After the universe was made her philosophy was changed and she started seeing reality as fictional, from then she tried to find something impossible to prove that it was real (her logic here makes more sense if you reread the chapter), and during that journey for the impossible she accumulated these skills.

Thus, I think it's fair to say that she survived the Big Bang physically.

That still assumes that the being born before matter existed is fundamentally a physical entity. I can agree that there were many skills she didn't have at the time, but I believe it's a stretch to think of her as a normal human with high stats at that point in time. The mere fact that she could survive in nothingness implies that she already had some sort of superpowers.

I can agree on the speed thing.

OK with Hanten.

Not sure on Kakegae's Note. Seems speculative IMO. It's not like the note is saying the definitely can't use it. Just that it is unknown whether she can, which I think is not wrong.

Disagree on the high-tiered thing regarding Encounter. The new description adds nothing in regards to the mechanism, so that is still just as much a NLF as before.

Disagree on Hanten Abstract Existence. Abstract Existence in our terms means either lack of a physical body (Which Hanten clearly has) or regeneration from the abstraction (which we have no feats for). Or, more in general, you have to be immortal due to your abstraction. I don't think Hanten fulfils these criteria, considering that he basically counted on dying before Ajimu.

Regarding the resistance to Illusion Creation an additional explanation should be given that it's only while she has that skill activated and the specific mechanics. We are essentially talking about resistance via enhanced senses here, after all.

I agree on the rest.

 

[Firephoenixearl]

Disagree on the high-tiered thing regarding Encounter. The new description adds nothing in regards to the mechanism, so that is still just as much a NLF as before.

How does it not? It directly applies an effect, why would the dmg or durability matter?

Disagree on Hanten Abstract Existence. Abstract Existence in our terms means either lack of a physical body (Which Hanten clearly has) or regeneration from the abstraction (which we have no feats for). Or, more in general, you have to be immortal due to your abstraction. I don't think Hanten fulfils these criteria, considering that he basically counted on dying before Ajimu.

I mean it could be a form of true self similar to how ajimu isn't 1 person. Though im neutral on this.

Though saying him expecting to die before a girl that predates existence and has no known limit is contradictory is just a bad argument im sorry. Ajimu isn't an average human.

 

[Agnaa]

What is the problem with like every scans about Hanten? It doesn't match any translation I ever saw in most of what he explains, including the official one.

I'm not quite sure what you mean about this, I'm using the fan translation by CXScans, pretty sure that's the only English translation of the entire manga, so it's the one we've been using for scans for ages.

I don't really how Hanten's talk about himself isn't about Shiranui village preserving her when he litteraly consider it as such.

I do not understand what you're saying here, could you reword it?

A "possibly higher" would be better if there's like 3 possible rating. Record of Ragnarok's Zeus had a similar statement which was refused till some others feats were brought up iirc.

I don't know what you're referring to here, I was proposing a "possibly higher" rating, where would a possibly higher rating be better?

I also made a bunch of suggestions below, and some of them me and agnaa agree on. Could you care to check them and give your opinion as well?

(I edited those into the main post after we agreed on them btw, if someone read through the OP they would have seen them)

That still assumes that the being born before matter existed is fundamentally a physical entity. I can agree that there were many skills she didn't have at the time, but I believe it's a stretch to think of her as a normal human with high stats at that point in time. The mere fact that she could survive in nothingness implies that she already had some sort of superpowers.

Yeah I guess she would have at least needed to have one or two powers, I still think this really casts doubt on whether she existed in a non-physical form. Existing before the universe doesn't preclude a physical form made of matter, and we don't seem to get any implication that the form we see her walking around as is an avatar/later created form.

I can agree on the speed thing.

To clarify, do you go with the looser or stricter interpretation of who scales to SoL/FTL?

Not sure on Kakegae's Note. Seems speculative IMO. It's not like the note is saying the definitely can't use it. Just that it is unknown whether she can, which I think is not wrong.

Yes but we don't include that note for every single pair of abilities a character hasn't used together, we include that when there's good reason for it. We don't have that sort of note for Momo being able to use Labels and Internal Time Dilation at the same time. And I think it seeming like a transformation ability and a duplication ability gave us good reason to doubt it, but since Metonymy seems broader I think the note becomes unnecessary.

Disagree on the high-tiered thing regarding Encounter. The new description adds nothing in regards to the mechanism, so that is still just as much a NLF as before.

It kinda does, it tells us that he pushes away the effect of the damage; that's how it works. Moving the effect rather than the damage itself should be usable on higher-tiered attacks, as he's not moving away a humongous amount of energy, just the effect that energy causes.

Disagree on Hanten Abstract Existence. Abstract Existence in our terms means either lack of a physical body (Which Hanten clearly has) or regeneration from the abstraction (which we have no feats for). Or, more in general, you have to be immortal due to your abstraction. I don't think Hanten fulfils these criteria, considering that he basically counted on dying before Ajimu.

That is pretty fair, but I feel like the statement kind of implies that the physical body may not be that meaningful, with the phenomena he compared himself to.

Regarding the resistance to Illusion Creation an additional explanation should be given that it's only while she has that skill activated and the specific mechanics. We are essentially talking about resistance via enhanced senses here, after all.

Right, will do.

 

[Firephoenixearl]

(I edited those into the main post after we agreed on them btw, if someone read through the OP they would have seen them)

Oh, i didn't realize.

 

[Antvasima]

I trust DontTalkDT's sense of judgement.

 

[Ionliosite]

I personally think Agnna makes the most sense, but I'm unsure how to deal with Ajimu's feat due to it being kinda vague.

 

[Antvasima]

@DontTalkDT

What do you think of Agnaa's evaluations of your post?

 

[DontTalkDT]

How does it not? It directly applies an effect, why would the dmg or durability matter?

So do Healing, Telekinesis and Curses. Doesn't mean they automatically ignore durability. Without mechanism, there is no proof that it can overcome the atomic bonds of matter without upper limit. Likewise, there is no proof that he can undo the amount of damage higher-tiered abilities would deal. That claim would amount to High Regeneration and that just isn't something you get without feats or mechanism.

Yeah I guess she would have at least needed to have one or two powers, I still think this really casts doubt on whether she existed in a non-physical form. Existing before the universe doesn't preclude a physical form made of matter, and we don't seem to get any implication that the form we see her walking around as is an avatar/later created form.

If Hantens statements of abstractness hold any water that would be one indicator, given that he is her fellow non-human.
In any case, extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence. The feat is essentially born from conjuncture.
We are assessing that in a verse swarming with hax and stat-wise Tier 5 at most in all other cases, that a feat is universe level on the mere belief that no hax was used.
The feat is also not as self-contained as it may seem. It, of course, means Iihiko's abilities/stats (whatever you wish to credit which of his showings to) are of 3-A scale. But that might not be much of an issue as he is just as special of an existence as Ajimu.
But it also means Doppelgangers can boost their stats to 3-A levels, Bookmaker is 3-A and, unless we believe she didn't copy them at full power, that Medaka has a bunch of 3-A skills copied from Ajimu. These aren't as special existences as Ajimu and Iihiko and for a verse that otherwise doesn't come up with showings on that scale, it makes alternate possibilities all the more likely.

The best we can really say about the feat is that we don't know that it's not a durability feat. That is, in my opinion, not enough given the context surrounding it.

To clarify, do you go with the looser or stricter interpretation of who scales to SoL/FTL?

The one that assumes contradictory conjunction can fix speed differences in some way.

Yes but we don't include that note for every single pair of abilities a character hasn't used together, we include that when there's good reason for it. We don't have that sort of note for Momo being able to use Labels and Internal Time Dilation at the same time. And I think it seeming like a transformation ability and a duplication ability gave us good reason to doubt it, but since Metonymy seems broader I think the note becomes unnecessary.

Ok, let me say that differently. I'm fine with not saying that she can't use them together. However, I am against indicating that she can combine them. If without the note people will still not assume that she can create lots of transformed copies, an application not demonstrated and in my opinion unjustified by just the reasoning that the ability should theoretically have broader applications, then I'm fine with removing it. If removing it ends up having people assume that is possible we should IMO keep a modified note at least.

It kinda does, it tells us that he pushes away the effect of the damage; that's how it works. Moving the effect rather than the damage itself should be usable on higher-tiered attacks, as he's not moving away a humongous amount of energy, just the effect that energy causes.

He's healing the effect of damage and causing damage corresponding to what was caused. Healing isn't directly tied to tier, but it is tied to the amount of damage. If a higher-tiered ability causes not more damage to him than the one he is used to from low-tiered one he can heal them. But he hasn't exactly used it on damage of the scale of immediately making him explode into pieces. You can explain as much in the note if you wish, but the point is that significantly higher-tiered abilities will virtually always kill him anyways.
And since we don't know how the ability causes the damage to the object it transfers it to we can't assume it can do that regardless of the durability of the object it attempts to cause damage to. So in that respect, it's entirely tied to tier.

That is pretty fair, but I feel like the statement kind of implies that the physical body may not be that meaningful, with the phenomena he compared himself to.

Eh, I don't feel like it does. For precedence on this kind of cases, I like to bring up the Unexplored-Class Materials in The Unexplored Summon. They are straight-up stated to be "anthropomorphized versions of the world’s laws" yet have not shown anything indicating immortality and hence aren't abstract either. Basically, being the physical version of something doesn't require you to have a non-physical immortal true self.

 

[Firephoenixearl]

So do Healing, Telekinesis and Curses. Doesn't mean they automatically ignore durability. Without mechanism, there is no proof that it can overcome the atomic bonds of matter without upper limit. Likewise, there is no proof that he can undo the amount of damage higher-tiered abilities would deal. That claim would amount to High Regeneration and that just isn't something you get without feats or mechanism.

TK does not negate durability, the rest do though.

It doesn't need to overcome the durability cus it just applies the effect. If i get stabbed by a knife, you get a stab wound. I don't care whether you're too strong to get killed by a knife, you get the wound directly. Saying this doesn't negate dura is like saying causality manip doesn't negate dura. And i don't need to point out why that is wrong.

 

[Agnaa]

The feat is also not as self-contained as it may seem. It, of course, means Iihiko's abilities/stats (whatever you wish to credit which of his showings to) are of 3-A scale. But that might not be much of an issue as he is just as special of an existence as Ajimu.

I thought Irreversible Destruction was currently considered able to bypass durability.

But it also means Doppelgangers can boost their stats to 3-A levels

This doesn't seem very ridiculous for me, I'd expect most characters that can perfectly copy people to be able to copy stuff within their dimensionality.

Bookmaker is 3-A

Bookmaker's also considered to have durability negation, and being able to bring people down to Kumagawa's level even if they're 3-A doesn't sound that wild to me.

unless we believe she didn't copy them at full power, that Medaka has a bunch of 3-A skills copied from Ajimu

I'm not quite sure why we'd put the AP of a skill as an internal thing dependent on the skill, rather than something that comes from the wielder.

These aren't as special existences as Ajimu and Iihiko and for a verse that otherwise doesn't come up with showings on that scale, it makes alternate possibilities all the more likely.

Yeah that's fair, if they were to scale I'd take more issue with it, but I never thought that they would FRA.

Ok, let me say that differently. I'm fine with not saying that she can't use them together. However, I am against indicating that she can combine them. If without the note people will still not assume that she can create lots of transformed copies, an application not demonstrated and in my opinion unjustified by just the reasoning that the ability should theoretically have broader applications, then I'm fine with removing it. If removing it ends up having people assume that is possible we should IMO keep a modified note at least.

My issue is still that we don't really assume that characters can't combine abilities without a good reason, and I don't think "they haven't used both at the same time canonically" is actually a good enough reason, and we don't tend to give that limitation to characters solely based on that.

He's healing the effect of damage and causing damage corresponding to what was caused. Healing isn't directly tied to tier, but it is tied to the amount of damage. If a higher-tiered ability causes not more damage to him than the one he is used to from low-tiered one he can heal them. But he hasn't exactly used it on damage of the scale of immediately making him explode into pieces. You can explain as much in the note if you wish, but the point is that significantly higher-tiered abilities will virtually always kill him anyways.

Fair point about healing, but we don't really know how much damage the stuff he's redirecting would have caused to him, as we never see him tank any attacks. To bring things to extremes, he could have normal human durability, and even Hinokage's punches would have immediately made him explode, or he could have phenomenal durability, to the point where Hinokage's punches would have merely tickled. If we're going down the route of the damage it would have caused, I don't think we can say anything about the level it redirects.

And since we don't know how the ability causes the damage to the object it transfers it to we can't assume it can do that regardless of the durability of the object it attempts to cause damage to. So in that respect, it's entirely tied to tier.

I think knowing that it moves the effect of the damage rather than the damage itself tells us that it would work regardless of the durability. He's not sending 10^20 joules to the target, he's moving the wounds that would have been caused by the attack to the target. Directly inflicting wounds like this bypasses durability.

Eh, I don't feel like it does. For precedence on this kind of cases, I like to bring up the Unexplored-Class Materials in The Unexplored Summon. They are straight-up stated to be "anthropomorphized versions of the world’s laws" yet have not shown anything indicating immortality and hence aren't abstract either. Basically, being the physical version of something doesn't require you to have a non-physical immortal true self.

Ahh okay, fair, I'll remove that proposal from the OP.

 

[Blackcurrant91]

I dont see the big deal with techniques that ignore durability working on a 3-B-3-A 3 dimensional being.

 

[QuasiYuri]

Why would things working on a tier 3 level be a problem when All Fiction is a thing anyway?

 

[Antvasima]

@DontTalkDT

Agnaa seems to make good points. What do you think?

 

[Agnaa]

Bump.

 

[Antvasima]

@DontTalkDT

 

[DontTalkDT]

Sorry for the delay. I was a bit busy over Christmas.

TK does not negate durability, the rest do though.

It doesn't need to overcome the durability cus it just applies the effect. If i get stabbed by a knife, you get a stab wound. I don't care whether you're too strong to get killed by a knife, you get the wound directly. Saying this doesn't negate dura is like saying causality manip doesn't negate dura. And i don't need to point out why that is wrong.

Curses don't actually be default ignore durability. That depends on the curse.
Causality Manipulation ignores durability, because the mechanism behind it is manipulating cause and effect. It can ignore concerns of force and energy as it manipulates the underlying framework upon which these things affect reality. Causality Manipulation has a mechanism that clearly explains why things work regardless of tier. This doesn't.
To inflict the stab wound it still needs to pry the flesh apart in some way. Meaning it needs to work against durability. Unless it inflicts the stab wound some special way that ignores forces. But that would need a known mechanism to it.

I thought Irreversible Destruction was currently considered able to bypass durability.

I guess? Not 100% sure why, but if we accept 3-A durability Ajimu that would make sense. Although there is also the shrugging off damage aspect.

This doesn't seem very ridiculous for me, I'd expect most characters that can perfectly copy people to be able to copy stuff within their dimensionality.

You think so? In my book power is one of the most common limitations to power copying. Like, if we are talking energy it has to come from somewhere, so more or less random guards being able to generate that degree of power is rather strange to me.

Bookmaker's also considered to have durability negation, and being able to bring people down to Kumagawa's level even if they're 3-A doesn't sound that wild to me.

Power Seals often are a matter of potency, given that they have to prevent the energy from bursting out. Although, I guess Kumagawa's can be argued not to work like that.

I'm not quite sure why we'd put the AP of a skill as an internal thing dependent on the skill, rather than something that comes from the wielder.

Wouldn't that conflict with the idea that she has the skills at 120% potency? Like, why do we even have unknown rankings for her currently if we say that the potency of none of her copied skills applies to her?
In fact, wasn't it kinda hinted that Medaka specifically could properly copy Ajimu's skills at full power given that Ajimu said she would beat her due to Live Zero, not by Medaka's The End being outpaced? Kumagawa seemed to believe The End might let Medaka win at least.

My issue is still that we don't really assume that characters can't combine abilities without a good reason, and I don't think "they haven't used both at the same time canonically" is actually a good enough reason, and we don't tend to give that limitation to characters solely based on that.

I'm pretty sure we do not assume that characters can combine abilities in every way we can come up with. In particular, I don't think we default to clone techniques producing clones with all abilities of the original. It's very common that the ability includes that feature, but not always the case. So, she can produce clones and transform herself at the same time. But a little bit more evidence is needed for every clone to be able to transform as well IMO.

Fair point about healing, but we don't really know how much damage the stuff he's redirecting would have caused to him, as we never see him tank any attacks. To bring things to extremes, he could have normal human durability, and even Hinokage's punches would have immediately made him explode, or he could have phenomenal durability, to the point where Hinokage's punches would have merely tickled. If we're going down the route of the damage it would have caused, I don't think we can say anything about the level it redirects.

Yes, we quite possibly can't. In which case the only way to avoid the NLF would be to say that he can redirect damage on Hinokage's level. If it is that he can redirect lots of damage or just receives few is uncertain, but we know a normal attack on that level works. So we're basically back at "it works up to a certain tier".

I think knowing that it moves the effect of the damage rather than the damage itself tells us that it would work regardless of the durability. He's not sending 10^20 joules to the target, he's moving the wounds that would have been caused by the attack to the target. Directly inflicting wounds like this bypasses durability.

He's not moving energy, yes. But that doesn't mean he doesn't use energy to replicate the damage. If you think about the damage like an object not redirecting the damage means he doesn't teleport the object somewhere else, but he could delete the object and just create a new copy somewhere else to shift just the effect. That's of course just an analogy, but I hope it gets the point across.

Gagamaru once explained that he needed 215 of Hinokage's punches to break a steel beam. Either Gagamaru could take over a hundred of his punches without getting enough damage that transferring it would destabilize the beam or it's an issue of force being transmitted and the beam being harder to break than Gagamaru. (Fiction isn't exactly consistent with its estimation on durability...) Considering that a later use of Encounter on a barrage of a dozen or so punches apparently broke "every bone" in Medaka's body, I think it's unlikely that the 200 prior punches just didn't do that much damage to Gagamaru.

When Encounter transfers damage from punches we usually also see "impacts" instead of the damage just appearing. Although whether that is an argument, of course, depends on how much meaning you give to the drawing choice.

 

[Firephoenixearl]

This doesn't.

It absolutely does. That mechanism is called "applying the effect". Meaning it is messing with the effect. Im sorry dude but it's starting to sound less and less genuine. If something directly doesn't interact with the energy or durability in any way and instead interacts with the effect, but you're saying it has no mechanism. It's just not true at this point, not even a matter of opinion.

To inflict the stab wound it still needs to pry the flesh apart in some way.

No it doesn't. Because it's inflicting the effect, not the damage. With this logic it's like saying Scar Dead also doesn't negate durability cus it has to inflict the wound, which i don't have to explain why it's flawed reasoning.

Meaning it needs to work against durability.

Same argument as scar dead. It dealing damage doesn't mean it's working against durability. Cus it's not reflecting energy, it's reflecting the final effect. Energy would be the only thing that would interact with durability in this case.

Unless it inflicts the stab wound some special way that ignores forces. But that would need a known mechanism to it.

It does, again this ability works very similarly to causality manip from what this effect thing sounds like. We know what it does and we know how it does it. How that's not a mechanism is beyond me.

On that note too. Even Shibushi says 'damage" instead of 'energy".

And regarding the "how did the steel frame survive that long?", it's cus Gagamaru can decide when to apply those effects. you can see here when he's looking at the steel frame the steel frame is still intact, then it breaks. It even falls in line with the "pushing away the damage of death.

 

[Agnaa]

You think so? In my book power is one of the most common limitations to power copying. Like, if we are talking energy it has to come from somewhere, so more or less random guards being able to generate that degree of power is rather strange to me.

I never really thought about it that way. As I typed this up I was about to concede that point to you, but then I realized that they did copy Ajimu and Medaka perfectly anyway, and Hitoshiki/Kumagawa talked about how terrifying that is. So maybe it isn't right to consider those random guards as such fodder. They are part of the Shiranui village, created by Hanten Shiranui, and are capable of evenly matching these absurd existences.

...Actually, rereading the chapters for this scan, there are two mentions of the Doppelgangers being illusions, which really makes me unsure how to process that fight. Does none of it have any implications because it's just a psychological thing? Can the clones matching Ajimu's AP be dismissed as easily happening from an illusion, while the feats performed on them should still be taken as realistic showings of how the characters would fight against themselves/others?

Regardless, you are pushing me away from this point a bit.

Power Seals often are a matter of potency, given that they have to prevent the energy from bursting out. Although, I guess Kumagawa's can be argued not to work like that.

I guess so, I never really thought about them that way. Does that mean that any character, even without resistance to sealing, could break out of a seal if they have higher AP than the strongest thing sealed?

Wouldn't that conflict with the idea that she has the skills at 120% potency?

I always thought of that as being 120% capability/mastery rather than 120% energy output, and I'd think it far weirder for Medaka to be able to copy the AP of anyone she hears about (and for her to get a 1.2x AP multiplier).

Like, why do we even have unknown rankings for her currently if we say that the potency of none of her copied skills applies to her?

Rereading the profile, Unknown is partially given because of her Skill Rush giving her "Pioneer Flag (全人類未踏, Paioni Furaggu): Create new universe skill." It's also partially given because of All Fiction's incredibly dubious statement of being able to erase all of existence. It's also partially given because of (imo) nonsensical scaling to Ajimu. I don't really like any of these being included; I disagree with skill rushes being canon, I disagree with the AF statement being reliable, and I disagree with AF/Bookmaker somehow scaling to Ajimu AP-wise because they sealed her, as this should just be a hax feat.

Regardless, none of that Unknown rating appears to come from copying Ajimu's skills (except for the technicality where Pioneer Flag is a skill rush, which was presumably copied from Ajimu at some point off-screen, but even then the rating comes from the skill's own description).

In fact, wasn't it kinda hinted that Medaka specifically could properly copy Ajimu's skills at full power given that Ajimu said she would beat her due to Live Zero, not by Medaka's The End being outpaced? Kumagawa seemed to believe The End might let Medaka win at least.

I don't think this is what the manga actually said at that part. The relevant scans are these two. To quickly run them down:

1. Ajimu says she can't beat Medaka.
2. Kumagawa asks if that's because of The End.
3. Ajimu says that The End is easy for Ajimu to overcome, as Live Zero lets her nullify any skill, presumably including The End. But that she still can't win against Medaka.
4. The second scan says this is because Medaka is metaphorically a main character, a rare, unfathomable person who would never lose.

I do not think this can reasonably be interpreted as Medaka winning via The End.

But I will say that you have pushed me somewhat away from giving unsealed Ajimu a tier, even if I'm not fully sold on ditching the idea just yet.

I'm pretty sure we do not assume that characters can combine abilities in every way we can come up with. In particular, I don't think we default to clone techniques producing clones with all abilities of the original. It's very common that the ability includes that feature, but not always the case. So, she can produce clones and transform herself at the same time. But a little bit more evidence is needed for every clone to be able to transform as well IMO.

Oh, now that you mention it, I think that's a fair default way to treat cloning abilities.

I think the note should be reworded then, rather than saying that 800 Lies and Metonymy may not be able to be used at the same time, it should say that her clones may not be able to use Metonymy themselves. I'll edit my change in opinion here to the OP.

Actually, now that I'm editing it in I do realize that Kakegae's clones can use 800 Lies themselves, but the clones of clones appear not to be able to. Does this mean we should also give Metonymy (and all of Fukurou's styles when he makes clones) to the initial 800 clones, but not to the rest of the 640,000?

Yes, we quite possibly can't. In which case the only way to avoid the NLF would be to say that he can redirect damage on Hinokage's level. If it is that he can redirect lots of damage or just receives few is uncertain, but we know a normal attack on that level works. So we're basically back at "it works up to a certain tier".

I guess so, I did forget about healing having a limit so the note should be kept in, I never internalized the correlation between tier and level of damage. But I'll still argue for durability negation for now.

He's not moving energy, yes. But that doesn't mean he doesn't use energy to replicate the damage. If you think about the damage like an object not redirecting the damage means he doesn't teleport the object somewhere else, but he could delete the object and just create a new copy somewhere else to shift just the effect. That's of course just an analogy, but I hope it gets the point across.

In that analogy, I'd take moving the effect of the damage as treating the effect as an object, and teleporting those wounds somewhere else. This would negate durability similar to how Scar Dead does, we don't currently put a tier cap on those old wounds iirc.

But you do have a fair point with the rest of your post about how the effects on inanimate objects make this dubious. The best argument I have is that, perhaps like Scar Dead, a certain level of in-verse equalization is made between wounds in humans and wounds on inanimate objects.

 

[Antvasima]

I am glad that the two of you are rationally working out solutions. Thank you for helping out.

 

[Firephoenixearl]

I think the note should be reworded then, rather than saying that 800 Lies and Metonymy may not be able to be used at the same time, it should say that her clones may not be able to use Metonymy themselves. I'll edit my change in opinion here to the OP.

I mean considering how she doesn't even call them clones but instead "myself" (iirc, you can quote me on that one), it would seem weird for them to be unable to use that power. Especially when the "clones" actually used 800 lies (to turn into 640'000) so why would they have access to 1 of the styles but not the other?

 

[Agnaa]

(You should probably read my paragraph right after that)

 

[Firephoenixearl]

Actually, now that I'm editing it in I do realize that Kakegae's clones can use 800 Lies themselves, but the clones of clones appear not to be able to. Does this mean we should also give Metonymy (and all of Fukurou's styles when he makes clones) to the initial 800 clones, but not to the rest of the 640,000?

Why so? I believe they just didn't use it rather than were shown to be unable to use it. We make a big difference between the 2.

 

[Agnaa]

Right, but if they haven't shown the ability to use it, and there's a good reason to default to them being unable to use it (because many clones in fiction don't have all the powers of the original, which is even shown in MB with the 639,200 clones of clones being seemingly unable to duplicate themselves further), we should assume that they can't.

 

[Firephoenixearl]

Right, but if they haven't shown the ability to use it, and there's a good reason to default to them being unable to use it

No? Why would we do that? Because that's saying teleportation or dodging Iihiko is impossible cus Ajimu (despite us knowing she has such things) didn't get out of the rubberband's way.

 

[Agnaa]

What? That makes no sense.

I explicitly said you need a good reason, and explained the good reason immediately after. Whatever bullshit you're talking about there doesn't have a good reason.

 

[Firephoenixearl]

Wait what?

Why isn't "she didn't use it" an argument here, but when talking about Ajimu's case "she didn't use it" is an argument?

So why do we accept 1 but not the other?

 

[Agnaa]

because many clones in fiction don't have all the powers of the original, which is even shown in MB with the 639,200 clones of clones being seemingly unable to duplicate themselves further

 

[Firephoenixearl]

And other fiction equalizes to this? To a case where the clones specifically use that power. But since it wasn't used infinitely it means it can't?

So the issues are:
1. Using things some other fiction does (not all).
2. Rules don't apply to this cus they clearly use it you're just saying "not infinitely".
3. The "being seemingly unable to duplicate further" we never see that, that was just the level she used it on. If the clones could use 800 lies again why couldn't they use the copying? They clearly retain the abilities. If you wanna say "there is a limit to the clones she can make" that's fine, but saying they don't retain the abilities is just wrong.

 

[Agnaa]

1. Yeah, if a substantial amount of fiction doesn't use something by default, and we have no evidence counteracting that default, we'll go with that default.
2. No, the clones of clones never use 800 lies.
3. Why wouldn't she keep using it then to stall Medaka indefinitely? 640k clones seems to be the limit.

If the clones could use 800 lies again why couldn't they use the copying? They clearly retain the abilities.

That's exactly what I am ******* saying dude, are you reading my posts?

I am suggesting that the initial 799 clones can use the copying, but that the extra 639,200 shouldn't be assumed to.

 

[Antvasima]

So have you and DontTalkDT reached some form of agreement here Agnaa?

 

[Firephoenixearl]

3. Why wouldn't she keep using it then to stall Medaka indefinitely? 640k clones seems to be the limit.

As i said, seems more like a limit to her power. It's either that or Medaka found a way to limit it to just that.

Cus even if you wanna go with "the clones of the clones can't pull it off". Then when there is only the true Kekage left then she can just spawn 640'000 other people. Or why didn't the 800 clones that could use the ability use it a 2nd time. It would add another 639'200 clones, seems like a ton to keep stalling if you ask me.

 

[Agnaa]

@Ant There's still some stuff I'd like DT to respond to.

@Fire I assumed that Medaka ended up incapping the main Kakegae. Seems like a reasonably possible thing to do.

 

[Antvasima]

Agnaa:

Okay. No problem.

 

[Firephoenixearl]

@Fire I assumed that Medaka ended up incapping the main Kakegae. Seems like a reasonably possible thing to do.

She would have to incapacitate all 800 at the same time. Otherwise they'd just keep on adding 639'200 clones over and over to beat medaka.

Now you assume all of that OR you can easily say "well she just didn't do it, a concept we can see several times throughout medaka" or the "there is a limit to the clones" (but the former is significantly better).

So you can either apply wonky ass reasoning based on "other verses" to apply to this that leads to other inconsistencies as well as "only the 1st set of clones retains abilities" wherever that kind of reasoning comes from. Or you can use a reasoning that we see several times throughout medaka box with the "just chose not to do so for whatever plot convenient purposes similar to other cases in medaka box". Do you see the difference here?

 

[Agnaa]

She would have to incapacitate all 800 at the same time. Otherwise they'd just keep on adding 639'200 clones over and over to beat medaka.

She'd have to incap/kill all 640,000 anyway to get past them. I see no reason why she'd just only kill the secondary clones, letting them get resummoned over and over, without going after the primary ones.

And she'd only need to incap the main one, the rest could be killed.

So you can either apply wonky ass reasoning based on "other verses" to apply to this that leads to other inconsistencies as well as "only the 1st set of clones retains abilities" wherever that kind of reasoning comes from. Or you can use a reasoning that we see several times throughout medaka box with the "just chose not to do so for whatever plot convenient purposes". Do you see the difference here?

I don't want to jump to PIS immediately when there are other plausible explanations. imo that should be closer to a last resort, which I don't think is necessary here.

 

[Anime_Facts]

I have a question not very related to CTR.
If Ajimu gains an upgrade to the Universe level, will Medaka also gain that level? Since Medaka> Ihiko> Ajimu, or Ajimu being inferior is considered a plot intervention?

 

[Agnaa]

Well that's part of the debate, but as of right now Iihiko's considered to be above Ajimu through power null and durability negation, so he wouldn't scale physically.

 

[Anime_Facts]

I read the manga a few months ago and I don't remember any evidence that it ignores durability, can you send me a scan of it? It would be a great help