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Upgrade Yggdrasil/RKT/TWSAIS

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None of your scans had sufficient evidence, your refutation was inadequate, and I explained to you how both of those mentions were ambiguous at absolute best with multiple interpretations and detrimental to your argument at absolute worst when taken in the fuller context. You don't get to just decide you are the "winner" like that and everybody who disagrees is doing so out of personal opinion. As a matter of fact, that's ridiculously rude, and I take offense to your multiple attempts throughout this thread to subtly suggest I'm acting underhanded. I have not accused you of anything similar even once. I just disagree with your interpretation. Accept it and move on.

Stop claiming you have "proven" things when you haven't. Stop claiming you've "refuted" and "debunked" me when you haven't. I don't think your arguments are good. Try new ones. That's how work gets done here. Instead of treating me like your opponent, treat it like we're working together to solve a problem. The obvious caveat to this method of approach is that if you are not actually trying to solve a problem and are instead just trying to instal some preconcieved notion into the wiki without accepting any alternatives, we're unlikely to get anywhere together.
 
If his refutation is inadequate, it'd be trivial for you to actually post a complete in-depth rebuttal instead of coming in every ten minutes to say "I still disagree with this and so do [random knowledgeable members who have been agreeing with you throughout this thread]". No offense.
 
Kepekley23 said:
So far I think 1-A Thor isn't some unreasonable suggestion.
Click to expand...
Please show a list of all the scans that convinced you of this, because I definitely have not noticed any useful evidence, with the exception of one scan that ClassicNESfan says is out of context/misleading.

Also, he has posted multiple point-by-point rebuttals.
 
Wrong, I'm just saying this now because it's tiring, the whole post with people agreeing with me, and you guys in that cyclical argument and accusing others of bias and wank.

And I say again, manipulating the context of a comic to say that a kingdom is outside yggdrasil, when it is said that it is inside of her, it will not refute anyone.

Ano-Athox tenth realm
 
How does a scan about the existence of a tenth universe ("Heven") prove a 1-A scale?
 
Antvasima said:
How does a scan about the existence of a tenth universe ("Heven") prove a 1-A scale?
Click to expand...
This isn't about 1-A, or Low 1-A, that scan is talking about Ano-Athox, not "Heven." The point is that so far little you and NES just saying that Yggdrasil has only 9 kingdoms, when I showed that there's more, there are infinite universes in yggdrasil, and Thor confirm that Yggdrasil's Ano-Athox is part of it, and only confirms what Solvong said about having infinity universes in it.

The reason to be 1-A is to be the omniverse, and another things.
 
I already posted my response quite a long time ago, Kep. It was left pretty much completely unaddressed. Besides, this has gotten to the point that it's wearing on me. It's like a merry-go-round. I post a massive explanation about why I don't agree with something, someone comes back with an equally long and fairly flawed post about why my arguments are wrong, often filled with a bunch of burden shifting, snarky comments, and subtle questioning of my character, I try not to take it personally and post a mile-long response to that. Somebody else interjects with a new out of context scan about Yggdrasil from somewhere in its 50 year history. The discussion shifts to that. I come back in a few hours later to find the topic has changed, but one of the other knowledgeable members seems to have a handle on it. They clearly exhaust from your endless pushing but more or less succeed in kicking out whatever new, crazy suggestion was brought up. Somebody comments about how the evidence I wrote an essay dismissing a day ago was actually quite good and proved everything. They go on about how nobody had a good response for it and anyone who disagrees at this point is doing so out of personal preference. And the whole cycle starts over again. I swear, it's like the actual Norse cycle. I don't have time to keep commenting detailed responses on a thread that keeps ignoring me and then acts surprised when I say I don't agree.
 
Please show a list of all the scans that convinced you of this, because I definitely have not noticed any useful evidence, with the exception of one scan that ClassicNESfan says is out of context/misleading.

Thor transcended the cosmic and quantum architecture of the multiverse, seeing into the void of Ginnungagap, which is an aspect of Oblivion outside multiversal space-and-time.

The Norns are stated multiple times to be capable of manipulating fate on a multiversal scale. The TWSAIS are the ones who provide them with power.

Not only that, it's outright stated that the TWSAIS's natural habitat is "outside all realities", and post-Secret Wars it's revealed that this realm "outside all realities" is the Outside of the Multiversal Eternity.

In other words, the TWSAIS naturally inhabit a 1-A realm and are one with a major aspect of Oblivion., beyond any level of cosmic architecture and the concept of destiny on a multiversal scale.

This is natural and easy to understand if you just engage in an open-minded debate.
 
@Alonik: For the 1,000th time, saying "They are from a tenth world" does not prove that they were from within Yggdrasil. The very scan you are linking claims that they are threatening to burn the entire World Tree when literally only the nine realms were under attack in that story. That alone is evidence that The World Tree is a reference to the local 9 realms, not every universe in existence.

Look. If I have a map of the multiverse and that map includes 9 worlds, then something invades our nine worlds from a world not on that map, it is correct in every sense for me to say "We're being invaded by a 10th world." It, however, does not suggest- in any way- that the 10th world is a part of my map.

You need a scan saying that they are from inside Yggdrasil or part of the true World Tree or deeper within Yggdrasil or frankly, anything that suggests their realm is already in The World Tree. Saying "they come from a tenth world" is not evidence. It's grammar.
 
@NES

Stop exaggerating. You literally only posted two "big" refutation posts, both of which were quickly addressed, and then you stopped posting and left this thread for a while. Your next post after that was just "I'd like better evidence", which doesn't translate to "the evidence is flimsy and indirect". It just means it didn't fulfill your standards.

You also exaggerate when you claim people were being aggressive with you because of your lack of agreement with the OP. Anyone who scrolls can see no one remotely insulted at any point on this thread. Honestly, that just comes across as a narrative being pushed to detract from the actual debate taking place, if you don't mind my cynism. At the very, very most people were slightly blunt by demanding direct evidence for your claims and asking you to "stop misinterpreting" certain scans. That's it.

Lastly, if this thread tires you out, that is not our problem (sorry for the bluntness). Considering your disagreement with the OP and their proposal did not seem to have completely convinced all knowledgeable members of Marvel Comics, it's not like the opposite side is unconvicing or anything. If you disagree too much with them to engage in a continuous debate, there's not much anyone can do about it.
 
For the 1,000th time, saying "They are from a tenth world" does not prove that they were from within Yggdrasil. The very scan you are linking claims that they are threatening to burn the entire World Tree when literally only the nine realms were under attack in that story. That alone is evidence that The World Tree is a reference to the local 9 realms, not every universe in existence.

Wrong, they weren't attacking Yggdrasil, they wanted asgard. So much so that when Thor will split Yggdrasil, they get scared to death and try to do everything so Thor doesn't cut the connection.

If they wanted to destroy Yggdrasil, they wouldn't have stopped Thor.

Look. If I have a map of the multiverse and that map includes 9 worlds, then something invades our nine worlds from a world not on that map, it is correct in every sense for me to say "We're being invaded by a 10th world." It, however, does not suggest- in any way- that the 10th world is a part of my map. You need a scan saying that they are from inside Yggdrasil or part of the true World Tree or deeper within Yggdrasil or frankly, anything that suggests their realm is already in The World Tree. Saying "they come from a tenth world" is not evidence. It's grammar.

The map of Yggdrasil is made based on what Odin chose to show, this arc is literally saying "Odin hid the existence of other kingdoms, and our belief that there were only 9 universes was wrong."

Also, I sent a scan, which one of the kingdoms pronounces that Ano-Athox is part of the Yggdrasil, it is located below the surface of it.

The interpretation that he was out of Yggdrasil is out of context, as I've shown before, and is totally unreliable, sorry.
 
Neither posts were addressed adequately, but I'll take your advice on the way I express my disagreement in the future. I should have said "The evidence is flimsy and indirect" rather than "I'd like better evidence."

No, nobody has been openly hostile toward me, but that wasn't what I was complaining about. It is incredibly clear that several people have repeatedly brought into question my character and whether my arguments were in good faith or not. I'm not the kind of person who is bothered by direct insults as much as attempts to read my mind and establish hidden motives. So yes. I do mind your cynicism. The least someone can do is give the person they are speaking to the benefit of the doubt and not indirectly accuse them of shady behavior because of a disagreement. I've done nothing to deserve such a thing, and I have not once accused anybody else on this thread of arguing in bad faith. I don't think it's absurd that I'm offended by people claiming I "ignore them," "base my conclusions on personal preference," or "purposefully try to manipulate context."

I'm tired of this thread because it's not going anywhere, as evidenced by your recent reposting of material that has already been addressed multiple times. I am not fond of repeating myself over and over again. It's clear we are simply at an impasse due to differing interpretations of the scene, and there's not much for me to say until an actual new argument is provided.
 
I did not mean to imply you were purposedfully establishing a narrative, just that it really came across that way. I honestly apologize if it offended you.
 
If the thread is coming to an impasse/stalemate shouldn't likely/probably/possibly be used then as a compromise?, or is that considered too much?. (or too little depending on your stance).
 
The tree reachs worlds beyond norse myths.Like the realm of Hades.

Seems solid the reach of the tree in the multiverse and the cross scalling don't stopped upgrades in many profiles.
 
Thor transcended the cosmic and quantum architecture of the multiverse, seeing into the void of Ginnungagap, which is an aspect of Oblivion outside multiversal space-and-time.

I would appreciate scans with evidence. From what I recall, he simply transcended the cycle of Ragnarok for the local 9 universes within that story.

The Norns are stated multiple times to be capable of manipulating fate on a multiversal scale. The TWSAIS are the ones who provide them with power.

I would appreciate straightforward evidence here as well please. And manipulating the local 9 universes is not the same as having absolute control over all higher orders of reality.

Not only that, it's outright stated that the TWSAIS's natural habitat is "outside all realities", and post-Secret Wars it's revealed that this realm "outside all realities" is the Outside of the Multiversal Eternity.

In other words, the TWSAIS naturally inhabit a 1-A realm and are one with a major aspect of Oblivion., beyond any level of cosmic architecture and the concept of destiny on a multiversal scale.

Again, at this point it had not yet been established that only multiversal entities can survive there, and 5 different comparatively low-powered characters (Loki, his human friend, the Silver Surfer, Dawn Granger, and Glorian) survived there in conjunction.

This is natural and easy to understand if you just engage in an open-minded debate.

Look, I am just opposed to trying to stitch together lots of stories that have nothing to do with each other, and am worried that this will end up scaling to Surtur, Odin, and all characters stronger than them in future revision threads. It is a dangerous boulder to set into motion.
 
The Axiom of Virgo said:
If the thread is coming to an impasse/stalemate shouldn't likely/probably/possibly be used then as a compromise?, or is that considered too much?. (or too little depending on your stance).
Click to expand...
This is too dangerous for that approach. If we give Thor 1-A, we have to eventually give Surtur 1-A, which means that virtually all tier 2 Marvel characters and above scale, since Surtur's Yggdrasil feat is what all of the 2-C Marvel characters currently scale from.
 
This is too dangerous for that approach. If we give Thor 1-A, we have to eventually give Surtur 1-A, which means that virtually all tier 2 Marvel characters and above scale, since Surtur's Yggdrasil feat is what all of the 2-C Marvel characters currently scale from.

It doesn't scale, and we've show it.
 
Literally everyone, even the opposing side, has already explained why Surtur doesn't scale. The exact same storyline has him state the Tree of Life transcends both Odin and himself, showing he only threateed a manifestation. Since it has already been explained, I'd appreciate it if you permanently dropped that point and stopped contributing to making this circular. Thank you.
 
Can somebody please show the scans debunking Surtur scaling from this?

Even if this is true, I still think that it is unwise to scale backwards 15 years though, and we need to assemble all of the explicit evidence that does not rely on speculation for Yggdrasil to scale this high.
 
There's also this quote where it says there are worlds beyond Yggdrasil.

1. Next time do not quote walls of text.

2. That quote is from Thor: The Dark World. A MCU-only comic. So yeah, wrong.

And before anyone says "b-b-but MCU is canon to the comics themselves!", the Yggdrasil in Earth-199999 is clearly just one of the universal manifestations, so even assuming this is canon...still wrong.
 
Kepekley23 said:
The "hard-hitting" scans are pretty numerous.
Click to expand...
Well, somebody needs to list them to me in an easy to understand manner, because so far I have only seen one that was explicit enough to seem convincing.

Also, can you post links to the Jane Foster Valkyrie scans that establish Yggdrasil as Low 1-A or 1-A?
 
Thank you for helping out. It is very appreciated.
 
Well, somebody needs to list them to me in an easy to understand manner, because so far I have only seen one that was explicit enough to seem convincing.

Also, can you post links to the Jane Foster Valkyrie scans that establish Yggdrasil as Low 1-A or 1-A?

It's been on the thread for a long time, please read.

Alonik said:
When Jane Foster went to threw Heimdall in the heave (not heven the tenth realm), she had to go to a yggdrasil root that lay in Greek hell, the anti-tree, the shadow of yggdrasil. Through this, she threw Heimdall beyond the Far Shore on the outside.

In addition, Al Ewing spoke in an official interview of this chapter about the yggdrasil that she is:

"The overarching idea here … is a kind of tour of Heaven and Hell in the Marvel Universe that's also a journey up the middle pillar of the Tree of Life."
Click to expand...
 
I see no proof whatsoever of Yggdrasil encompassing The Far Shore in those scans.
 
Wasn't the rationale for a Low 1-A or 1-A Yggdrasil that it supposedly encompasses most or all of Multiversal Eternity?

Anyway, even if it does, I think it makes much better sense to interpet RK Thor breaking the Ragnarok cycle for the 9 worlds as him simply affecting the local part of it, much like you say that Surtur did.
 
The Far Shore is 1-A. The proposed tier for the Multiversal Yggdrasil is Low 1-A, the possibly 1-A having already been mostly dropped to focus on the loweer-end. So no.

Except the TWSAIS were explicitly shown transcending the entire Marvel Multiverse. This has been explained before in this thread.
 
There's no need to create a new thread just yet. That makes no sense, considering we're still over 160 posts away from the 500 limit.
 
Based on what rationale is the Yggdrasil Low 1-A?

TWSAIS were only shown outside of the regular multiverse, and at the time this had not been established as such a big deal yet. As I mentioned earlier, Glorian, Silver Surfer, Loki, and two almost regular humans also did so during this storyline.

Also, Loki is still the god of stories I might add, but is nevertheless outclassed by Odinforce Thor in the latest Thor issue, and the Yggdrasil is quite easily threatened with death simply by potentially destroying the local universe in the same story.
 
And cyclical argument continues...

It's waste to have every time to debate the same point, so in the end when there's no argument, back again at a point that had already been answered to 50-150 comments ago.


1) Surtur is a different context from Thor
2) Thor affected true yggdrasil

And as kepekley said, TWSAIS in Loki agent of asgard are portrayed entirely transcendent to Multi Eternity, Loki even confuses them with the beyonders, and in the same story the TWSAIS recalled Thor's achievement, which they admitted that RKT was superior to them.
 
Oh, believe me, I hate this annoying argument considerably more than you do. I have many other tasks to handle at the same time after all.

I strongly disagree that TWSAIS were displayed as superior to multiversal Eternity. It is an empty claim without substance. No comparison to cosmic entities was ever remotely made. We simply know that they are very superior to Odin. That's it.

I also don't remember seeing any proof of Thor affecting anything more than the Ragnarok cycle for 9 universes, which would be the local part of Yggdrasil per definition, if it truly encompasses more than said universes, which is also doubtful.
 
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