Upgrade Source/ Root/ Origin in Maou Gakuin to type 1 concept, Again Pt. 2

[Tatsumi504]

this is wrong, as you need a living being god or human to have source or fire dew, so if they do not exist before order then you cannot assume that fire dew exists before reality did

Which is how the God of Creation Came to be. All worlds begin as bubbles and the world is inside the bubble. Bubbles simply come into existence in layer 0 and fire dew exists in them. From this the Creator God comes into existence and creates the other Orders before creating the world.
You proved nothing

So all I see is verse mechanics, cause sources do not behave like type 1 concept, only fire dew has the

Name the contradictions please.

if order exists before reality and order needs fire dew to exists or be sustained, that is a contradiction, do not go saying that I did not read the OP cause I did.

That is talking about the Order of the Silver Sea which is also filled with Fire Dew. Order in the silver sea>>>> Order in the bubble. Come on did you expect the silver sea not to have an order of it's own? What sustains the world is the order inside it not that of the SS. SS order is only responsible for how bubbles come into being, magic power, laws, and concepts flow to deeper parts of the sea.

The main argument is that, sources govern individual human, the total amount of it governs world. That is the distinction

Eques continued to steal fire dew secretly such that it wasn't noticed by the gods. This brought the world ever closer to destruction such that the current creator god will sacrifice themselves to create a new creator that'll recreate the world and try to find the reason for the destruction. The chapter with Militia's birth shows the world being barren and devoid of life. The militia world is currently 700 million years old and this process of recreating the world has been repeated countless times and they only noticed this because of Anos.
Proof that any miniscule amount affects reality? 700,000,000 years worth of fire dew Eques stole is far less than the amount Vade stole which immediately caused Order to begin collapsing. Still Eques gradually stealing a little amount of Fire Dew Each time gradually brought the world closer to destruction

 

[Reiner04]

As long as source is equal to firedew, it's fine.

 

[NothingToDebateWith]

Why? RvR exists, you can report me if you got offended by my fair argument.

Irrelevant. You literally argued and even pasted the standard. Now change my mind how are you not fair?

Huh???? Fire dews is CM type 1. I guess there is misunderstanding rn.

^ The person who brings Touhou in the discussion every time Fujiwara provides a counter-argument

I can't even, lmao.

 

[mal]

Creator God already existed Each gods has sources of thier own. So God and Source/fire dew already existed even before Reality.

cmiiw but Reality can existed w/o God in the verse.

 

[ImmortalDread]

I can't even, lmao.

?

 

[Tatsumi504]

cmiiw but Reality can existed w/o God in the verse.

Where?

 

[EldemadeDityjon]

cmiiw but Reality can existed w/o God in the verse.

In Maou Reality can't exist Without Gods & Order.

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

What Pein is saying makes sense tbh.

 

[EldemadeDityjon]

What Pain saying makes sense then got refuted by Tatsumi and never came back that's crazy.

Yeah make a better comeback.

 

[wwereymy235]

I agree with this thread.

 

[Accelerator]

I agree with this thread.

 

[PrinceofPein]

What Pain saying makes sense then got refuted by Tatsumi and never came back that's crazy.

Yeah make a better comeback.

While I will address Tatsumi later, I have a life outside here and other threads that I consider just as important as this and have tens of threads to go through, so stop with the whole never came back, it has not even been 8 hours since I replied

 

[ImmortalDread]

While I will address Tatsumi later, I have a life outside here and other threads that I consider just as important as this and have tens of threads to go through, so stop with the whole never came back, it has not even been 8 hours since I replied

You lucky it has been 8 hours, someone else would rush the vote tally and close the thread before you respond

 

[LephyrTheRevanchist]

You lucky it has been 8 hours, someone else would rush the vote tally and close the thread before you respond

As subtle as being hit by a brick house collapsing. Stay classy.

 

[EldemadeDityjon]

While I will address Tatsumi later, I have a life outside here and other threads that I consider just as important as this and have tens of threads to go through, so stop with the whole never came back, it has not even been 8 hours since I replied

Everyone has a life. I also go to work (Real JOB not a debating one) and during my free time i am active here. It's just skill issue for you. So stop saying only you have life kinda thing.

Now don't tag me until you refute Tatsumi refute. I don't want this thread to just filled with unnecessary comments.

Edit:
Don't take this in a wrong way it seemed like you are saying others don't have life. If you didn't mean it like that ignore my first paragraph.

 

[ImmortalDread]

Elde this time you are being rude to pain, she literally said nothing. wtf....?

 

[EldemadeDityjon]

Elde this time you are being rude to pain, she literally said nothing. wtf....?

That comment she made looks like telling others don't have a life to me though.

 

[Dragonite007]

Everyone has a life. I also go to work (Real JOB not a debating one) and during my free time i am active here. It's just skill issue for you. So stop saying only you have life shit kinda thing.

Now don't tag me until you refute Tatsumi refute. I don't want this thread to just filled with unnecessary comments.

Man Woke up and choose violence

 

[EldemadeDityjon]

Man Woke up and choose violence

That comment she mades looks like saying others don't have a life to me though.

^^
For the record that comment pain made looks like that though. If it has different meaning she can explain.

 

[ImmortalDread]

That comment she made looks like telling others don't have a life to me though.

But u don't

 

[EldemadeDityjon]

But u don't

Anyway let that girl spam her refute. So let's stop this here. This is derailing fr.

 

[Tatsumi504]

sorry, but this time for now I also agree with the topic, it is true that the source is deeper and more difficult to regenerate than the body, mind and soul, but from what it says in the exception, it must be as difficult to regenerate as the type 1 and 2 concept, which does not seem to happen here, if there is any proof that regenerating the source is as difficult as regenerating type 1 or type 2 concepts, I change my mind

Umm, wrong thread?

 

[Theglassman12]

Yeah I'm still not seeing the individual sources for an individual being type 1 here. Does the individual sources have anything that Order and Fire Dew can do in terms of governing reality or no? Because if it doesn't and all it has is it governing the individual then it's still just type 3 at best.

 

[Peak]

Umm, wrong thread?

holy shit, yeah, wrong thread, sorry

 

[Dog3352]

Yeah I'm still not seeing the individual sources for an individual being type 1 here. Does the individual sources have anything that Order and Fire Dew can do in terms of governing reality or no? Because if it doesn't and all it has is it governing the individual then it's still just type 3 at best.

Bro really sticks with it, even after Dark has already said it's not like that.

 

[Theglassman12]

@Dog3352 Because none of the scans provided remotely explains that the character's individual source operates on the same level as Order or a Fire Dew

 

[Dog3352]

@Dog3352 Because none of the scans provided remotely explains that the character's individual source operates on the same level as Order or a Fire Dew

If the concept (even if it governs only one person) is a more fundamental concept than the things it governs, it can be type 1 or 2, I don't even know why they took away the body, mind and soul explanation, since they easily could be type 1 only with that.
And I don't even really know how the fire dew=source thing works, so I'm neutral on this CRT.

 

[Tatsumi504]

Yeah I'm still not seeing the individual sources for an individual being type 1 here. Does the individual sources have anything that Order and Fire Dew can do in terms of governing reality or no? Because if it doesn't and all it has is it governing the individual then it's still just type 3 at best.

Individual sources is Fire Dew. Order and reality is dependent on fire dew

 

[Theglassman12]

@Dog3352 you do realize that by default is what a concept is right? It being more fundamental than what it governs is like the bare minimum description for this. That doesn't mean it has type 1 concept as it doesn't govern reality, let alone can exist independently from it.

@Tatsumi504 That doesn't really answer my question on the individual sources governing reality or being independent from reality.

 

[Dog3352]

I sometimes think you try to make a clown out of me.
Reality is what the concept governs, if it is independent of it, it already has one of the criteria to be type 1.
Source:Fundamental concept of existence; regardless of what governs; it exists deeper and is more fundamental than what the source governs; it's abstract.
Saying something like this is type 3 can only be a joke, the source has everything it takes to be type 1, I'm not saying that just because it's more fundamental than what it governs, but because of several things.

Such concepts are completely independent from the part of reality they govern, except maybe of other concepts of this nature.

The concept need not be independent of reality itself, just independent of what it governs, and the source is independent of what it governs.

 

[Theglassman12]

regardless of what governs

You do realize this is by default needs elaboration on what it governs right? Because that's how we judge the type of conceptual type this is.

 

[Dog3352]

You do realize this is by default needs elaboration on what it governs right? Because that's how we judge the type of conceptual type this is.

Yes, that's how it is described even in the HGR explanation, something that governs body, mind and soul can be type 1, 2 or 3.
The source meets all the criteria only type 1, we are just arguing against the obvious.

 

[Theglassman12]

We're not talking about High godly regen though, we're talking about the conceptual nature of the source. Also saying the source meets all criteria doesn't mean much when the scans don't even show that, at best it's just a fire dew thing.

 

[Dog3352]

We're not talking about High godly regen though, we're talking about the conceptual nature of the source. Also saying the source meets all criteria doesn't mean much when the scans don't even show that, at best it's just a fire dew thing.

I'm talking about the other explanation of the other CRT, it was simpler, it met all the requirements, and obviously it would be easily accepted, but they changed the CRT completely, using more complex things that I don't even know if they meet the requirements.

In addition to the but, you just have to see the explanation of CM type 3.

Concepts that don't meet the same standards as Type 1 or Type 2, such as personal concepts that continue to govern the object in question, merely on a more specific scale, or concepts whose nature is not elaborated upon.

The source has its explanations and deeds, it is definitely elaborate, according to Dark's explanation, a concept that only applies to an individual can be type 1 or 2, and the source also meets the requirements of type 2 or 1, the previous explanation I would have accepted on the spot, but, I just stay neutral on this one, as I prefer to wait for people with better knowledge in CM.

 

[Theglassman12]

If the requirements changed then that just means you'd need more evidence.

A concept being elaborated on doesn't mean it's not type 3. That's for specific statements where random series mentions "attacks you on a conceptual level" and not elaborate on what type of concept it is. You elaborating on the concept governing the individual just solidifies it being type 3, especially when it doesn't govern reality.

 

[Tatsumi504]

It is a memory of a very distant beginning--

It was the original creation of this world, the billions of times it has been repeated.
[...]
'There are not enough bereaved voices to tell all. My sweet child, to you, my failures. I must tell you of the end of the world of Elenesia.'

The world of true white is melting away.

It was like snow, gentle and soft.

Soon, behind the pure white world, a desolate land appeared.

Ravaged towns and villages, dry seas, withered forests, and crumbling mountains.

The end of the world, where there is no sign of life, is thrust before the girl's eyes.
[...]
My dear child. Please listen. This is the history of the world that we, the Gods of Creation, have repeated. A fairy tale of the gods passed down from mother to daughter, from generation to generation.

The silver-haired girl listens with a bird's eye view of the desolate world.

She listens to her mother's voice, which has long since disappeared.

Elenesia, the creator goddess, created the world. A world full of greenery, rich and beautiful. Various kinds of life lived there. In order to stabilize the world, we must maintain the consistency of order. Especially if destruction and creation are not equal, the world will not circulate, and the root will fall outside the framework of reincarnation.

The barren world is sprinkled with faint lights.

It must be the light of the life that has ended, the light of roots.

I kept order. I have tried hard to maintain the alignment of destruction and creation. But in the world of Elenesia, the seeds of conflict did not cease. People continued to fight, and little by little the world began to perish. The end result is what you see now.

Constant conflict and people destroying each other is causing reality to be destroyed.
Individual sources are still individual fire dew. The loss of fire dew or sources causes the destruction of the world. The world is dependent on fire dew as it is what governs Order.
Fire Dew is able to exist outside the world even after its destruction.

 

[Dog3352]

If the requirements changed then that just means you'd need more evidence.

A concept being elaborated on doesn't mean it's not type 3. That's for specific statements where random series mentions "attacks you on a conceptual level" and not elaborate on what type of concept it is. You elaborating on the concept governing the individual just solidifies it being type 3, especially when it doesn't govern reality.

First: If he meets the requirements of type 1 or 2, regardless of whether he govern only one individual, he can be type 1 or 2, you don't remember Dark's explanation.
second: These are examples of what a type 3 concept can be, I didn't say that only these are type 3.
Third: "governing reality" is about what it governs, not literally reality, I have my doubts if you've read the Dark's explanation, there are several concepts that govern a huge area, and even then they are type 3 concepts.

 

[1st_Virtue_of_Pure_Void]

I disagree based on glassman

 

[Reiner04]

Okay then;

A type 1 / 2 concept can only have a single object participate in it, but it would still be the universal concept. (As in, if a duplicate of the object were to be created, it would then participate in that same concept.)

Can I know know why source doesn't qualify?

 

[Theglassman12]

@Reiner The source needs to have a control over reality, where it being altered would have some change on the reality it exists in. Source of an individual only governs the individual person at best, and there's no other scans that remotely implies it can have an effect on reality so there's no reason it would scale to something like Order or Fire Dew.

@Dog3352 What do you think reality means? There's only one definition for reality when it comes to the context of conceptual hax.