Update Goku (DBS Manga)'s base form to Tier 3-A: Universe level

[JohnCenaNation]

This content revision thread has been since long overdue so might as well just do so. The only reason why Goku's base form in DBS Manga is Solar System level and not Universe level is regarding to the huge stigma of him not absorbing Super Saiyan God power into his base form achieving Saiyan Beyond God. This is not true and I have evidences proving otherwise:

Dragon Ball Z: Resurrection ‘F’ manga which is canon to Dragon Ball Super manga since its illustrated by the same mangaka showed two instances of Goku absorbing the power of Super Saiyan God into his base form. One when Goku was sparring against Whis and two when he was fighting against Frieza.

Not to mention, we were also given description regarding to what is the Super Saiyan Blue transformation is all about in the very same manga, which followed both the movie and the anime descriptions of Super Saiyan Blue.

So if we are going to accept both the movie and the anime for evidences regarding to Saiyan Beyond God and Super Saiyan Blue, why should the manga be any different since there is no evidences that says otherwise other than Toyotarou not including this arc in the Dragon Ball Super manga since he already did it in a separate manga and made multiple references to it?

 

[TheGodOfICE777]

Neutral for now but is there any additional proof?

 

[CloverDragon03]

Agreed. I always found this super weird tbh

 

[Spinoirr]

Note the anime comic for FoF is literally just screen shots of the movie in comic form

 

[Spinoirr]

We consider RoF (the movie) and DBS Broly cannon to the
Vegeta knocks away a attack from a held back weakened golden freiza


Vegeta goes ssj god and stomps broly until he goes wrathful

Base goku and ssj goku can actually survive attacks from broly (if he was solar system level like his profile says he would have been one shot easily and killed by even a held back broly)

 

[SirAlex09]

I agree

 

[LuffyRuffy46307]

I've really always agreed with that.

 

[Hasty12345]

super simple, agree

 

[Rakih_Elyan]

3-A base Goku.
I agree.

 

[denisnic55]

I agree with the OP

 

[LordGriffin1000]

Looks alright, I agree. Unless counter arguments are brought forth?

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

I personally think 3-A base DBS Manga Goku is legitimately fine considering we still have the movie and the "Saiyan Beyond God" statement.

 

[AguilaR202]

No because the feat he scales to isn’t 3-A anymore, universe size got reduced for manga based continuities due to all evidence of larger than average universe being toei anime exclusive.

But regarding scaling I don’t think there is anything that suggests Gokus base power got anywhere close to his previous peak as a SSgod, hell in the black arc he needs to go SSG to beat trunks who is still at buu saga levels of power by being touted as Stronger than SS2 cell games Gohan only after he goes SS2 himself.

post Broly movie might be fine but there are clear contradictions to the idea Goku is SSG level in base during the previous arcs.

 

[TheGodOfICE777]

No because the feat he scales to isn’t 3-A anymore, universe size got reduced for manga based continuities due to all evidence of larger than average universe being toei anime exclusive.

But regarding scaling I don’t think there is anything that suggests Gokus base power got anywhere close to his previous peak as a SSgod, hell in the black arc he needs to go SSG to beat trunks who is still at buu saga levels of power by being touted as Stronger than SS2 cell games Gohan only after he goes SS2 himself.

post Broly movie might be fine but there are clear contradictions to the idea Goku is SSG level in base during the previous arcs.

That was only heaven and hell and there was no new Calc when those became universal so it wasnt taking to account since the Calc was made years ago

Also in the black sage goku black in Ssj folds vegeta in ssjb and how is he touted as only stronger than ssj2 gohan in ssj2

 

[AguilaR202]

That was only heaven and hell and there was no new Calc when those became universal so it wasnt taking to account since the Calc was made years ago

Also in the black sage goku black in Ssj folds vegeta in ssjb and how is he touted as only stronger than ssj2 gohan in ssj2

I mean Trunks, as a SS2, was stated to be just above Cell Games Gohan which isn’t a good thing when the main point is that Gokus base level of power should be 3-A.

Goku in SS2/3 is shown closer through scaling to characters rated 4-B than those who are of SSG levels of power during that sparring match with trunks.

to explain it another way

If Trunks is only stated to be stronger than Gohan after he goes SS2, that means his base power can not be higher than 4-B, and he proved to be a match for SS2 Goku, based on that Gokus base can’t be rated as more than 4-B during the black arc.

Black isn’t Goku though and he never fought anyone of relevance for scaling purposes until he went CSSB which doesn’t tell us much about where his base level is at, it very well could be that CSSB is just that good of an amp over vanilla SSB that it lets him overcome all those gaps.

Black is 3-A in base but he has feats to show it, Vegeta could probably be 3-A as well in base
But only post RoSAT.

 

[CloverDragon03]

Gohan was used as a point of comparison since Gohan’s SSJ2 was the most powerful thing on the planet the last time Trunks was there, along with it being the same form. This is not an anti-feat

 

[AguilaR202]

Gohan was used as a point of comparison since Gohan’s SSJ2 was the most powerful thing on the planet the last time Trunks was there, along with it being the same form. This is not an anti-feat

Given that context the line makes no sense, if Trunks is 3-A along with Goku in base then there is no reason to mention Gohan only after they both go SS2 and not earlier when they are still stronger than Gohan.

 

[JirensMom]

I mean Trunks, as a SS2, was stated to be just above Cell Games Gohan which isn’t a good thing when the main point is that Gokus base level of power should be 3-A.

Goku in SS2/3 is shown closer through scaling to characters rated 4-B than those who are of SSG levels of power during that sparring match with trunks.

to explain it another way

If Trunks is only stated to be stronger than Gohan after he goes SS2, that means his base power can not be higher than 4-B, and he proved to be a match for SS2 Goku, based on that Gokus base can’t be rated as more than 4-B during the black arc.

Didn’t trunks overpower SSJ3 Goku? That SSJ2 Gohan lvl statement is definitely shaky.


Also Black fodderizing SSJ2 trunks in base (Trunks says Black hasn’t used SSJ in a long time against him) but then Vegeta overpowers SSJ Black in regular Super Saiyan.

 

[CloverDragon03]

Given that context the line makes no sense, if Trunks is 3-A along with Goku in base then there is no reason to mention Gohan only after they both go SS2 and not earlier when they are still stronger than Gohan.

Gohan is mentioned because this is the same form he used (SS2)

 

[JohnCenaNation]

Goku's hyperbolic statement about Trunks being just as strong as Gohan shouldn't be taken seriously as a cap to Trunks's power level. This isn't first time hyperbolic statements been used in Dragon Ball or any franchises:

Not to mention, BoS Goku was confident that he could Cell kill with a single casual blow the same Cell who was pressuring Gohan in a fight, and this was Goku before he met Beerus. Unless you can argue Goku magically got weaker in the following arcs, Goku's statement simply doesn't make any sense.

 

[AguilaR202]

Didn’t trunks overpower SSJ3 Goku? That SSJ2 Gohan lvl statement is definitely shaky.


Also Black fodderizing SSJ2 trunks in base (Trunks says Black hasn’t used SSJ in a long time against him) but then Vegeta overpowers SSJ Black in regular Super Saiyan.

Goku gauged the initial level of SS2 trunks to be above Gohan and then matched it with SS2, it was not until Goku went SS3 that Trunks powered up and outclassed SS3 Goku.

Black fodderizing trunks don’t make him 3-A unless the latter is rated as such, only higher degrees of 4-B.

Base Black only becomes 3-A through Zenkai, being able to damage Blue Vegeta while remaining a SS1.

 

[CloverDragon03]

All of this hinges on the idea that SS2 Trunks is only slightly stronger than SS2 Gohan, which is entirely unsupported. Goku just says he’s stronger

 

[AguilaR202]

Cell is not accepted as being comparable to Gohan, look at any scaling blog and Gohan is always rated to be 2x stronger than Cell.

what Goku shows here doesn’t showcase immediate superiority to Gohan as far as we know given how the fight went down.

Not to mention, BoS Goku was confident that he could Cell kill with a single casual blow the same Cell who was pressuring Gohan in a fight,

All of this hinges on the idea that SS2 Trunks is only slightly stronger than SS2 Gohan, which is entirely unsupported. Goku just says he’s stronger

No it hinges on the idea that while SS2 and above can be much stronger than Gohan it puts an implied cap on their base level of power otherwise the statement becomes nonsense because under the assumption that they’re already 3-A Gohans level of power is utterly irrelevant as a benchmark even when untransformed.

 

[JirensMom]

Goku gauged the initial level of SS2 trunks to be above Gohan and then matched it with SS2, it was not until Goku went SS3 that Trunks powered up and outclassed SS3 Goku.

Black fodderizing trunks don’t make him 3-A unless the latter is rated as such, only higher degrees of 4-B.

Base Black only becomes 3-A through Zenkai, being able to damage Blue Vegeta while remaining a SS1.

I’m saying Goku held back against Trunks. So Trunks has no scaling to him.

Base Black > SSJ2 Trunks > Supressed SS3 Goku.

We know Goku is equal to Vegeta.

Vegeta SSJ > Initial SSJ Black >>> Base Black >>>> SSJ2 Trunks

 

[CloverDragon03]

No it hinges on the idea that while SS2 and above can be much stronger than Gohan it puts an implied cap on their base level of power otherwise the statement becomes nonsense because under the assumption that they’re already 3-A Gohans level of power is utterly irrelevant as a benchmark even when untransformed.

And this is entirely unfounded

Goku only mentions Trunks’s strength when he goes SS2 because it’s the same form Gohan unlocked back in the Cell Saga

 

[Apex_Predator_GX]

I agree with the proposals of this Thread.

 

[TheGodOfICE777]

I mean Trunks, as a SS2, was stated to be just above Cell Games Gohan which isn’t a good thing when the main point is that Gokus base level of power should be 3-A.

Goku in SS2/3 is shown closer through scaling to characters rated 4-B than those who are of SSG levels of power during that sparring match with trunks.

to explain it another way

If Trunks is only stated to be stronger than Gohan after he goes SS2, that means his base power can not be higher than 4-B, and he proved to be a match for SS2 Goku, based on that Gokus base can’t be rated as more than 4-B during the black arc.

Black isn’t Goku though and he never fought anyone of relevance for scaling purposes until he went CSSB which doesn’t tell us much about where his base level is at, it very well could be that CSSB is just that good of an amp over vanilla SSB that it lets him overcome all those gaps.

Black is 3-A in base but he has feats to show it, Vegeta could probably be 3-A as well in base
But only post RoSAT.

goku and vegeta are literally about as strong as each other in base

Also SSJ goku believed he could beat majin Buu in just Ssj who’s way stronger than teen gohan so if you think Ssj goku and gohan Ssj are below teenhan they’d be downgraded

 

[JohnCenaNation]

So far we have a majority of people who agree to the update as the evidences that says otherwise falls short.

 

[LuffyRuffy46307]

So far we have a majority of people who agree to the update as the evidences that says otherwise falls short.

I think this might apply, we have two staff members, ask them to open their profile to update accordingly.

 

[TheGodOfICE777]

So far we have a majority of people who agree to the update as the evidences that says otherwise falls short.

I think this might apply, we have two staff members, ask them to open their profile to update accordingly.

Pretty sure it’s accepted since 2 staff agrees is all that’s needed and it’s uncontroversial but we have to wait 48 hours but once those 48 hours happen you’ll be able to apply them

 

[Eseseso]

Agree with OP

 

[Vladimir]

I agree, I never understood the plausible reason for not considering the Beyond God manga.

 

[LuffyRuffy46307]

Pretty sure it’s accepted since 2 staff agrees is all that’s needed and it’s uncontroversial but we have to wait 48 hours but once those 48 hours happen you’ll be able to apply them

These 48 hour rules take too long, now it's been almost 20 hours, lol

 

[Quantu]

Pretty sure it’s accepted since 2 staff agrees is all that’s needed and it’s uncontroversial but we have to wait 48 hours but once those 48 hours happen you’ll be able to apply them

You need 3

 

[TheGodOfICE777]

You need 3

It’s 2

 

[TiltedFN]

I agree FRA

 

[Nullflowerblush]

If Goku is in a perpetual state of Super Saiyan God-like power, then he should be able to sense God Ki, right? Because he could not.

 

[Damage3245]

Not to mention, BoS Goku was confident that he could Cell kill with a single casual blow the same Cell who was pressuring Gohan in a fight, and this was Goku before he met Beerus. Unless you can argue Goku magically got weaker in the following arcs, Goku's statement simply doesn't make any sense.

Just to note, that isn't a single blow. We can see Goku fighting his vision of Cell for a bit in those panels before the finishing blow.

 

[SirAlex09]

If Goku is in a perpetual state of Super Saiyan God-like power, then he should be able to sense God Ki, right? Because he could not.

Sensing doesn't have a range, right?

 

[Nullflowerblush]

He used present tense, which implies he is unable to sense Beerus' Ki in general.