Universal Energy Systems

[KLOL506]

But I'm really not sure how a character using only one type of energy or one type of energy being common to many people in the verse would really support the scaling idea we are talking about any further.

Also, could you elaborate a bit further on what you mean by this? Because from what I've seen, usually if they're shown/stated to utilize/use the same power source/s that’s explicitly proven to be part of one’s strength, then it would be much easier to explain why it would scale to their power, and it not either being a specific ability or that it wouldn't scale to physical strength unless specific circumstances come into play or are mentioned.

 

[DontTalkDT]

Well, like already stated, it's not a hard requirement. The page clearly states:

KEEP IN MIND THAT THESE ARE NOT STRICT, MANDATORY RULES TO QUALIFY A UNIVERSAL ENERGY SOURCE FOR SCALING TO PHYSICALS, BUT RATHER THEY ARE MERELY A SET OF GUIDELINES TO HELP ONE PROVE SO.

You really should write the page different in that regard. Stating a bunch of rules and then saying "but none of these rules really apply" doesn't help anyone. There should be a clear distinction between necessary requirements, sufficient requirements and supportive requirements. If the only sufficient requirement is having at least several supportive ones that should also be stated.
But that are fundamentally just design issues, I suppose. If it's just that a certain amount of restructuring of the page would be enough.

Also, could you elaborate a bit further on what you mean by this? Because from what I've seen, usually if they're shown/stated to utilize/use the same power source/s that’s explicitly proven to be part of one’s strength, then it would be much easier to explain why it would scale to their power, and it not either being a specific ability or that it wouldn't scale to physical strength unless specific circumstances come into play or are mentioned.

My point is that these requirements support the idea of it being "universal", but not the idea of supernatural powers scaling to physicals which is what is actually of interest to us.
What the page suggests is that "Needs to explicitly be a common source of power within the verse" is a necessary or at least supportive criteria for the scaling of supernatural feats to physical strength. However, there is just no correlation here.
You can have an entire verse of people with a power system that doesn't allow for scaling supernatural feats to physical strength. On the other hand, you can have a single human with magic, for which the magic power scales to physical strength.
There is no reason to believe that lots of people in a verse using the same type of power system raises the probability of it scaling to physical feats in the slightest.
For the question of whether or not supernatural feats scale to physical strength, it is neither supportive nor necessary.
The same goes for relevance for the verses lore. Magic that doesn't scale to physical can be very important to a verse's lore (e.g. Harry Potter), while magic that does scale to physicals could be nearly irrelevant. Tie into the verse's lore doesn't support scaling.
What could support scaling would be knowledge of the mechanics of the supernatural power we are talking about, as one could maybe tell based on those whether physicals scale or not. However, mechanics and lore aren't equivalent and then it depends on what the mechanics state if it is relevant to scaling supernatural powers to physicals.

Now, you said "if they're shown/stated to utilize/use the same power source/s that's explicitely proven to be part of one’s strength, then it would be much easier to explain why it would scale to their power", however that isn't something iplied by lots of people using it nor is it something contradicted by a person using more than one kind of power.

 

[Hellbeast]

You really should write the page different in that regard. Stating a bunch of rules and then saying "but none of these rules really apply" doesn't help anyone.

That’s not what we’re doing; the rules are considered guidelines ala other pages we have
It’s recommended to fit more criteria then you do not but it’s not necessary to fit every single one since that’s restrictive

There should be a clear distinction between necessary requirements, sufficient requirements and supportive requirements. If the only sufficient requirement is having at least several supportive ones that should also be stated.

We did but since these are intended as guidelines and there was a negative community reaction we removed the distinction

But that are fundamentally just design issues, I suppose. If it's just that a certain amount of restructuring of the page would be enough.


My point is that these requirements support the idea of it being "universal", but not the idea of supernatural powers scaling to physicals which is what is actually of interest to us.

We reference physical statistics in quite a few critieria (such as the depowering one)

What the page suggests is that "Needs to explicitly be a common source of power within the verse" is a necessary or at least supportive criteria for the scaling of supernatural feats to physical strength. However, there is just no correlation here.

The reason it’s there is that could make it easier to prove the energy system by showing those properties translate across a wider number

If someone can Fit half the criteria and you can prove the “common energy source” criteria then that could allow you to pull from other characters under the same systen

You can have an entire verse of people with a power system that doesn't allow for scaling supernatural feats to physical strength. On the other hand, you can have a single human with magic, for which the magic power scales to physical strength.
This is a disqualifying criteria already my friend. It’s mentioned you shouldn’t be using characters who powers share differing properties to argue the entire verse’s energy system works that way

There is no reason to believe that lots of people in a verse using the same type of power system raises the probability of it scaling to physical feats in the slightest.
For the question of whether or not supernatural feats scale to physical strength, it is neither supportive nor necessary.
The same goes for relevance for the verses lore. Magic that doesn't scale to physical can be very important to a verse's lore (e.g. Harry Potter), while magic that does scale to physicals could be nearly irrelevant. Tie into the verse's lore doesn't support scaling.
What could support scaling would be knowledge of the mechanics of the supernatural power we are talking about, as one could maybe tell based on those whether physicals scale or not. However, mechanics and lore aren't equivalent and then it depends on what the mechanics state if it is relevant to scaling supernatural powers to physicals.

It’s a subtype of the “shared system” point, it’s really only there in addition to that criteria

 

[KLOL506]

That’s not what we’re doing; the rules are considered guidelines ala other pages we have
It’s recommended to fit more criteria then you do not but it’s not necessary to fit every single one since that’s restrictive

We did but since these are intended as guidelines and there was a negative community reaction we removed the distinction

DT does have a point that it helps no one to just type "guidelines" and then also say "none of them necessarily apply". But seems like some of the staff, AKM and Prom included, disagree with making any of the requirements as mandatory, save for the whole "prove that your abilities performed via UES scales to or is equal to your physical punching power, and that an increase in your energy/power levels also results in a proportional increase in your physical punching strength levels" criteria.

Like for the "Empowerment" section. You do need to be able to demonstrably show that you can use the energy source to amplify your physical strength and that your abilities scale to it in tandem, and that an increase in your energy level will result in a proportional increase in your physical strength in return, since that is literally the main selling point of a universal power system.

 

[Agnaa]

The reason it’s there is that could make it easier to prove the energy system by showing those properties translate across a wider number

If someone can Fit half the criteria and you can prove the “common energy source” criteria then that could allow you to pull from other characters under the same systen

You can have an entire verse of people with a power system that doesn't allow for scaling supernatural feats to physical strength. On the other hand, you can have a single human with magic, for which the magic power scales to physical strength.

I don't understand this. Multiple characters having an energy system makes evidence easier to collect, but it doesn't actually make it more likely to scale to physicals, so it doesn't really have a reason to be listed.

I don't think the simple facts of "Tons of characters in the verse have it" and "It's discussed in the lore" should be able to push an energy system over the line into qualifying.

If all you're trying to say is "If multiple characters have the same energy system, evidence for it scaling to physicals for one character should indicate scaling for all characters" that seems so obvious that it doesn't need to be stated, and isn't really being said by the inclusion of these contentious points.

 

[Hellbeast]

I don't understand this. Multiple characters having an energy system makes evidence easier to collect, but it doesn't actually make it more likely to scale to physicals, so it doesn't really have a reason to be listed.

The point being you can use other characters to help prove the greater; it being verse wide simply helps you by granting a larger pool of evidence

I don't think the simple facts of "Tons of characters in the verse have it" and "It's discussed in the lore" should be able to push an energy system over the line into qualifying.

"discussed in lore" would more be reflected by "is an intrinsic element of the setting's composition and life therein" but I do get your point here

If all you're trying to say is "If multiple characters have the same energy system, evidence for it scaling to physicals for one character should indicate scaling for all characters" that seems so obvious that it doesn't need to be stated, and isn't really being said by the inclusion of these contentious points.

Perhaps a removal or rewording of the point is in order?

 

[Agnaa]

I don't think "Ways a series could give more evidence" really belongs on a guideline page. A series being longer or having official guidebooks means there's a greater pool of evidence, but we don't list that down.

 

[Hellbeast]

I don't think "Ways a series could give more evidence" really belongs on a guideline page. A series being longer or having official guidebooks means there's a greater pool of evidence, but we don't list that down.

Yeah but that's more a series just giving you more chances to prove a certain thing, this is letting you know that if the properties are the same you can apply it to the wider verse
Perhaps it could be moved to the notes?

 

[Agnaa]

Sure.

 

[Hellbeast]

I'll get KLOL's take and if welcoming I'll do so
I could put it right there with the other one about properties being different

 

[KLOL506]

I'll get KLOL's take and if welcoming I'll do so
I could put it right there with the other one about properties being different

Oh well. As long as it's explained in detail, I'm game.

Which part are we gonna put in the notes again?

 

[Hellbeast]

Oh well. As long as it's explained in detail, I'm game.

Which part are we gonna put in the notes again?

The criterion about being a large element of the verse

 

[KLOL506]

The criterion about being a large element of the verse

Ah, the whole "Energy source must serve as a core underpinning to the verse's lore/natural or metaphysical elements" criteria? Sure.

 

[KLOL506]

This one looks more of a case-by-case basis approach from the looks of it, yes.

The active/passive thing I mean.

EDIT: BTW, here's a criterion I made from this (Basically short form for the page)-

• Some verses have different ways of utilizing their universal energy sources, either actively or passively.
  • Some verses have mechanics which allow characters to only amplify their statistics by actively channeling their energies.
    Example: Dragon Ball (Ki)
  • While some verses have characters be automatically powerful by virtue of their energy reserves and their sheer size alone, passively making them powerful without requiring to channel their energy. For example: Naruto (Stamina), Devil May Cry (Demonic Energy, can also be used actively to amplify weapons), Bleach (Reiatsu), etc.
    • In both cases, energy systems can be qualified as UES, but it helps in scaling if their types are discerned.
    • Note: In passive systems, cases may exist where reserves can be inaccessible/dormant, in which case, one’s physical strength cannot be scaled to said energy pools. (For example, Bijuu/Tailed Beast Chakra in Naruto)
    • Note: In cases regarding both active and passive systems, often at times letting one’s guard down against an attack (like for example, being distracted, or being attacked when they are asleep/unconscious/unaware of an incoming attack), can often at times result in a sharp drop in one’s power level and even their physical strength and durability. This should preferably be determined on a case-by-case basis.
  • Note: This specific criterion is to be determined on a case-by-case basis depending upon the consistency of the series/verse.

BTW, any thoughts on this one?

 

[Hellbeast]

Ah, the whole "Energy source must serve as a core underpinning to the verse's lore/natural or metaphysical elements" criteria? Sure.

Yeah that and the whole thing about being a wider element of the verse

 

[KLOL506]

Yeah that and the whole thing about being a wider element of the verse

I only see a "Needs to explicitly be a common source of power within the verse" criteria, do you mean that one?

 

[Hellbeast]

Yep, there's a sub type there about being an underpinning in the verse

 

[KLOL506]

Yep, there's a sub type there about being an underpinning in the verse

it's not exactly a subtype (As in, it's not hollow-bullet-pointed like the other subtypes from the other criteria), it's literally part of the main criterion itself but meh, who cares

 

[Agnaa]

No that main point's an issue too. Like DT said, it being common or being a thing for multiple characters does not make it more likely to scale to physical feats.

 

[KLOL506]

No that main point's an issue too. Like DT said, it being common or being a thing for multiple characters does not make it more likely to scale to physical feats.

Like Hellbeast said, that one's being moved to the notes section as well.

 

[Hellbeast]

No that main point's an issue too. Like DT said, it being common or being a thing for multiple characters does not make it more likely to scale to physical feats.

As I've said we're moving that

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

Okay, back from work. I agree with some of DT's points though he misunderstood some parts of the doc. But perhaps the disclaimer about them being "A list of pointers and not strict rules" should probably be moved near the top to avoid confusion. But I will explain and also give my two cents on the premise. I think "Universal Power Source" sounds better than "Universal Energy system" tbh for other details. And I think some are confused what "Universal" is supposed to mean. Universal in terms of flexibility and one to one fuctions on "Energy manipulation/conductivity" rather than Universal in terms of everyone in the universe/multiverse has it.

 

[KLOL506]

Okay, back from work. I agree with some of DT's points though he misunderstood some parts of the doc. But perhaps the disclaimer about them being "A list of pointers and not strict rules" should probably be moved near the top to avoid confusion.

Assuming it still maintains the "guidelines" aspect and it is not decided to bring back the "mandatory", "supplementary" headlines, yes. To the top.

If they are brought back tho (Since DT thinks there should be mandatory and supplementary criteria), they would prolly be at the top of the "Supplementary Criteria".

But I will explain and also give my two cents on the premise. I think "Universal Power Source" sounds better than "Universal Energy system" tbh for other details. And I think some are confused what "Universal" is supposed to mean. Universal in terms of flexibility and one to one fuctions on "Energy manipulation/conductivity" rather than Universal in terms of everyone in the universe/multiverse has it.

I think we can decide on what to name it once we've got all the criteria nailed down. But yes, Universal Power Source does indeed sound better.

Though DontTalk suggested another name: Connective Energy System/Source.

 

[KLOL506]

As I've said we're moving that

So basically, in case anyone asks, the following criteria:

1. Needs to explicitly be a common source of power within the verse

• Not necessarily a main one but it needs to serve as a power source for several characters

2. The energy source must have a core underpinning to the verse’s metaphysical or natural elements and/or must be tightly integrated into the verse’s lore, as this would certainly be a helpful piece of evidence (such as the Force “binding the universe together” and being tied to all life)

Will be moved to the Notes section then.

Further evaluations after this are welcome.

 

[KLOL506]

bump

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

I would probably replace "Needs to be" with "Should generally be" since it's possible for something to qualify as "Universal/Connected" "Energy System/Power Source" even if only one in verse character has it. But having a preference of mentioning it being a part of a verse's lore looks good, but it is also possible to qualify if a single character simply has mentions about all of their internal weapons/power ups/magic spells/special attacks/ect being connected in such a way that simply having X tier levels of energy conductivity scales to all of said characters powers and abilities that make use of energy control.

 

[GilverTheProtoAngelo]

I would probably replace "Needs to be" with "Should generally be" since it's possible for something to qualify as "Universal/Connected" "Energy System/Power Source" even if only one in verse character has it. But having a preference of mentioning it being a part of a verse's lore looks good, but it is also possible to qualify if a single character simply has mentions about all of their internal weapons/power ups/magic spells/special attacks/ect being connected in such a way that simply having X tier levels of energy conductivity scales to all of said characters powers and abilities that make use of energy control.

How about this??

1. It helps if its common source of power within the verse. Most important aspect is that energy should be readily usable for all relevant abilities for individual user of energy.

• Not necessarily a main one but it needs to serve as a power source for several characters. A energy can limited to amplification of physical strength alone but it is not a disqualifying factor.

2. If the energy source has a core underpinning to the verse’s metaphysical or natural elements and/or must be tightly integrated into the verse’s lore, as this would certainly be a helpful piece of evidence (such as the Force “binding the universe together” and being tied to all life.)

 

[KLOL506]

I would probably replace "Needs to be" with "Should generally be" since it's possible for something to qualify as "Universal/Connected" "Energy System/Power Source" even if only one in verse character has it.

Ye, Gilver brought it up to me in Discord.

But having a preference of mentioning it being a part of a verse's lore looks good, but it is also possible to qualify if a single character simply has mentions about all of their internal weapons/power ups/magic spells/special attacks/ect being connected in such a way that simply having X tier levels of energy conductivity scales to all of said characters powers and abilities that make use of energy control.

Ye, I believe this criteria present on the draft initially proposed by Gilver covers it nicely:

• As long as the character shows feats in proportion with a certain amount of energy used out of an external source like magical weapon/artefact, the feat will be attributed mainly for the weapon, but can be considered UES for Character + Weapon pair (Basically what this means is that if a character can tap into said weapon’s power source and then is able to use that energy to perform their own feats, then it should be fine to scale their physical strength to the weapon, and it can be considered a character + weapon combo). One should also consider the aspects of power-scaling as make-or-break factors.

 

[AKM sama]

I do agree with DT's points as some of it basically echo my own points. More than half of these guidelines shouldn't be guidelines at all. They are random conditions that are satisfied by one or more verses that already have an explained energy system where physicals scale to their energy level/attacks, and other verses don't necessarily have to abide by that. They don't help anybody and aren't a valid factor in evaluating what scales to physicals or what doesn't. I will comment more on the doc later when I get more time but I maintain my view as of now, that we really do not need all this noise. Evaluate every verse on its own, only two questions are necessary to understand their energy system.

 

[GilverTheProtoAngelo]

I do agree with DT's points as some of it basically echo my own points. More than half of these guidelines shouldn't be guidelines at all. They are random conditions that are satisfied by one or more verses that already have an explained energy system where physicals scale to their energy level/attacks, and other verses don't necessarily have to abide by that. They don't help anybody and aren't a valid factor in evaluating what scales to physicals or what doesn't. I will comment more on the doc later when I get more time but I maintain my view as of now, that we really do not need all this noise. Evaluate every verse on its own, only two questions are necessary to understand their energy system.

Then you misunderstood the fundamental motive of draft/page.

Its not a rulebook with criterea you need to tick off, its like "How to..." guide filled with friendly advice, for example "How to read stock market" type books.
It gives you insight/advice for identifying/judging several attributes of UES in a verse, which you would normally be unaware of or misinterpret.

Perhaps we can make a better job of making it look "friendly" and change any point that looks like a rule......but I strongly feel those points should be on that page to help people.

 

[KLOL506]

Then you misunderstood the fundamental motive of draft/page.

Its not a rulebook with criterea you need to tick off, its like "How to..." guide filled with friendly advice, for example "How to read stock market" type books.
It gives you insight/advice for identifying/judging several attributes of UES in a verse, which you would normally be unaware of or misinterpret.

Perhaps we can make a better job of making it look "friendly" and change any point that looks like a rule......but I strongly feel those points should be on that page to help people.

Of course, DT also recommended to re-add the "Mandatory" and "Supplementary" portions back (Even tho I'm not really a fan of it), so if we do that we can have the Mandatory section retain the two main requirements that AKM proposed (Which are now effectively Criteria 1 and 7 IIRC), and the rest of the other points (Criteria 2-6) can be made supplementary.

 

[KLOL506]

I do agree with DT's points as some of it basically echo my own points. More than half of these guidelines shouldn't be guidelines at all.

I think you need to read the responses I and Hellbeast made in regards to that. A lot of DT's points have been addressed (Which he can evaluate if he chooses to) and even modifications to the draft have been made as suggested (Like removing the whole "Core underpinning aspect of lore" and "Common energy source" from the guidelines and putting it in the notes section), further modifications will be carried out in accordance to any other advice he has to offer for the draft if they help make the standards more flexible, after which further evaulation is welcome.

They are random conditions that are satisfied by one or more verses that already have an explained energy system where physicals scale to their energy level/attacks, and other verses don't necessarily have to abide by that.

That is literally the point of this draft tho. Even the draft itself states that you don't need to necessarily abide by the guidelines for needing to qualify to scale your powers to your physical strength (Minus the mandatory ones which you mentioned which we have already put in the draft in Criteria 1 and 7), we even plan to change the wording a bit to accomodate for this.

They don't help anybody and aren't a valid factor in evaluating what scales to physicals or what doesn't.

You do realize that lots of verses have commonalities like this when it comes to power-scaling, right?

Naruto, Bleach, Dragon Ball, Fairy Tail, Devil May Cry, God of War and many other verses use these methods for power-scaling their characters. Saying that they aren't valid doesn't exactly do justice to these verses at all.

I will comment more on the doc later when I get more time but I maintain my view as of now, that we really do not need all this noise. Evaluate every verse on its own, only two questions are necessary to understand their energy system.

What noise exactly? How do you exactly evaluate every verse on its own without knowing where to look and what to look for? These guidelines are literally tips and advices on how to do all of that.

Also those two questions are already in the draft, Criteria 1 and 7. I suggest you check those out as well. If DT's suggestions of bringing back the "Mandatory" and "Supplementary" headlines are carried out, Criteria 1 and 7 will become the two mandatory criteria to fulfill to qualify scaling the energy source to physicals, everything else after that will be supplementary criteria.

 

[GilverTheProtoAngelo]

What noise exactly? How do you exactly evaluate every verse on its own without knowing where to look and what to look for? These guidelines are literally tips and advices on how to do all of that.

This, this exactly.
This was THE CORE reason why Hellbeast has made this draft, and we are supporting it.

 

[Hellbeast]

This, this exactly.
This was THE CORE reason why Hellbeast has made this draft, and we are supporting it.

What the ****, is Gilver agreeing with me?

I'd like to add one thing, having only two solid criteria and leaving any other evidence as wholly supplementary is a great way to have people try to fit those two in the vaguest way possible and then pass that off as enough proof of it being a fact It's like asking only for "Light and heats up" as Light Speed evidence and then leaving it at that

Having multiple criteria (that I'd note are already fairly common in verses) is a great way to not have this happen and actually recommend that people draw on a greater body of evidence while also thinking critically about the elements they're debating about.

 

[KLOL506]

What the ****, is Gilver agreeing with me?

I'd like to add one thing, having only two solid criteria and leaving any other evidence as wholly supplementary is a great way to have people try to fit those two in the vaguest way possible and then pass that off as enough proof of it being a fact It's like asking only for "Light and heats up" as Light Speed evidence and then leaving it at that

I'm pretty sure we won't let it go through that easily. Again, there must be explicit showings/statements/pieces of evidence like "Can tap into X Energy/X weapon's energy to amplify his own physical prowess to perform feats of great magnitude" and "Increase in the amount of the energy being used also results in a proportional increase in physical power levels" and other similar statements (As these are literally the reason why a UES exists to begin with, amping your physical self and sharing the attacking potency of your abilities with your own physical strength), and I'm pretty damn sure that any big energy system player that has some detailed info on it is bound to at least go into the basics of how it works and amplifies its wielders, if nothing else.

Besides, the other criteria would further act as supporting bedrock for those two solid criteria if there are any qualifiers for said criteria alongside the already-fulfilled two criteria.

We already have strict-enough standards for what can and cannot be qualified as light-speed.

Also just saying "Light and heats up" is... vague. Really vague. Hell, it even sounds worse than the shitty UES that AC has.

Having multiple criteria (that I'd note are already fairly common in verses) is a great way to not have this happen and actually recommend that people draw on a greater body of evidence while also thinking critically about the elements they're debating about.

I mean, doing that and then also saying that every single criteria (Even the most important ones) don't necessarily need to qualify, also... doesn't, help things?

Again, I am not saying to axe the other criteria (Not at all the case), in fact, I am fervently against removing any of the criteria currently present, but I am in favor of giving importance to the criteria that matter the most.

 

[GilverTheProtoAngelo]

What the ****, is Gilver agreeing with me?

Sometimes differences must be overcomed.

Having multiple criteria (that I'd note are already fairly common in verses) is a great way to not have this happen and actually recommend that people draw on a greater body of evidence while also thinking critically about the elements they're debating about.

Agree with Klol on this.
But for curiosity's sake...what extra mandatory criteria do you have in mind.

 

[Hellbeast]

Sometimes differences must be overcomed.

This truce is temporary, I will conquer you in GOW

Agree with Klol on this.
But for curiosity's sake...what extra mandatory criteria do you have in mind.

I'm not really intending to add to the mandatory criteria, just the idea that two criteria you need to fit isn't a great concept. While none of our guidelines are exactly mandatory in the same way it is recommended to fit more then you don't (see other such criteria pages) and I'd certainly argue it's a bit better then just two relatively vague criteria

I'm pretty sure we won't let it go through that easily.

So am I; I'm just pointing out there have been plenty of cases where verses without a hugely active supporter base find themselves being held under leniant standards

Again, there must be explicit showings/statements/pieces of evidence like "Can tap into X Energy/X weapon's energy to amplify his own physical prowess to perform feats of great magnitude" and "Increase in the amount of the energy being used also results in a proportional increase in physical power levels" and other similar statements (As these are literally the reason why a UES exists to begin with, amping your physical self and sharing the attacking potency of your abilities with your own physical strength), and I'm pretty damn sure that any big energy system player that has some detailed info on it is bound to at least go into the basics of how it works and amplifies its wielders, if nothing else.

Yeah I get that; I'm just not sure why that specifically should be the only criteria held

Besides, the other criteria would further act as supporting bedrock for those two solid criteria if there are any qualifiers for said criteria alongside the already-fulfilled two criteria.

Sounds decent, my issue though is that would imply you only need to fit two, with everything else being wholly and utterly optional to include which kinda makes me question why exactly they'd be present.
Happy to bend to the majority on this

I mean, doing that and then also saying that every single criteria (Even the most important ones) don't necessarily need to qualify, also... doesn't, help things?

The point being you don't need to fit every single one exhaustively, just fit some

Again, I am not saying to axe the other criteria (Not at all the case), in fact, I am fervently against removing any of the criteria currently present, but I am in favor of giving importance to the criteria that matter the most.

So we'd go back to mandatory and supplementary then? I'd recommend getting some more opinions from prior commenters since we seem to have agreed to axe that

 

[KLOL506]

This truce is temporary, I will conquer you in GOW

Heh, I guess I'll just get the popcorn on that day

I'm not really intending to add to the mandatory criteria, just the idea that two criteria you need to fit isn't a great concept. While none of our guidelines are exactly mandatory in the same way it is recommended to fit more then you don't (see other such criteria pages) and I'd certainly argue it's a bit better then just two relatively vague criteria

So am I; I'm just pointing out there have been plenty of cases where verses without a hugely active supporter base find themselves being held under leniant standards

I'd like to see such cases meself. Would you mind pointing out what verse exactly falls under this? Please don't say GoW, even I'm smart enough to know that something like GoW wouldn't have that kind of leniency

Yeah I get that; I'm just not sure why that specifically should be the only criteria held

It's basically because those two criteria are the literal foundations of what makes or breaks a Universal Energy System. Without them, there's no reason for a UES to exist.

Sounds decent, my issue though is that would imply you only need to fit two, with everything else being wholly and utterly optional to include which kinda makes me question why exactly they'd be present.
Happy to bend to the majority on this

They'd still have their level of importance. It's not like we're just gonna stop at those two if the other criteria are there to show themselves to us.

The point being you don't need to fit every single one exhaustively, just fit some

Which I literally just mentioned:

1. Showing that you can amp your physical statistics with the said energy system/source/whatever and that you can scale the power of your abilities to your physical stats via said energy source (Criteria 1)

2. Showing that an increase in the amount of the power/energy used from the energy system/source also results in a drastic proportional increase of your physical statistics simultaneously. (Criteria 7, direct correlation needing to be established between the power system and the abilities and physical characteristics)

So we'd go back to mandatory and supplementary then? I'd recommend getting some more opinions from prior commenters since we seem to have agreed to axe that

I'd like to get DontTalk's opinion on this first before anything else.

 

[Hellbeast]

Heh, I guess I'll just get the popcorn on that day


I'd like to see such cases meself. Would you mind pointing out what verse exactly falls under this? Please don't say GoW, even I'm smart enough to know that something like GoW wouldn't have that kind of leniency

I'm more referring in general to how certain lesser known verses get away with a lot less scrutiny then larger, more well known verses
Considering we see this for elements like tiering, continuity and P&A'S I have no doubt this could be exploited too

It's basically because those two criteria are the literal foundations of what makes or breaks a Universal Energy System.

Yeah I agree with that, I just think we shouldn't be holding them as the only ones necessary

They'd still have their level of importance. It's not like we're just gonna stop at those two if the other criteria are there to show themselves to us.

As I said over Discord it does deemphasize them though, it means only two criteria are really required at all to be fit and the rest could be viewed as optional.
I'm fine with noting the two two as the most important; I just kinda disagree with splitting them into "mandatory and supplementary"
It goes against the core intention for the Doc imo

Also are we debating this here or Discord? We're going around a bit

I'd like to get DontTalk's opinion on this first before anything else.

Yeah that's fine, I do feel there might be differing opinions out there from users who's agreed to one version of the Doc rather then the newer proposal

 

[KLOL506]

I'm more referring in general to how certain lesser known verses get away with a lot less scrutiny then larger, more well known verses
Considering we see this for elements like tiering, continuity and P&A'S I have no doubt this could be exploited too

Hmmmmmm, I wonder what those lesser verses are.

Yeah I agree with that, I just think we shouldn't be holding them as the only ones necessary

Any other requirement in mind that you can think of?

As I said over Discord it does deemphasize them though, it means only two criteria are really required at all to be fit and the rest could be viewed as optional.
I'm fine with noting the two two as the most important; I just kinda disagree with splitting them into "mandatory and supplementary"
It goes against the core intention for the Doc imo

I mean, at the same time, those two criteria aren't just the most important ones tho, they're also the backbone of what and why a Universal Energy System is.

Also are we debating this here or Discord? We're going around a bit

Both I guess since Discord's quicker to respond at LMAO

Yeah that's fine, I do feel there might be differing opinions out there from users who's agreed to one version of the Doc rather then the newer proposal

Well we'll have to re-tag them anyway once everything is finalized.