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Universal Energy Systems

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Hellbeast

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Ya'll know why we're here, we have no guidelines for this so I and KLOL worked on a Doc with proposed guidelines. This is an invitation to discuss the proposals and see if we can make a page for this concept.

EDIT: New Sandbox made by KLOL
There was a previous thread (is recommend reading at leadt my original post for more detail on the proposal) but at Staff request we're making a thread on this board to help get more staff engaging.

Basically the issue is we currently have one requirement for determining universal energy systems; whether a character can amp their physicals and even that is only based on me having to search our forums for extended periods. This is obviously insanely loose and cannot be allowed to continue so I propose we fix that by installing specific guidelines on determining what applies and what doesn’t apply as a universal energy system.

Currently our guidelines are split into compulsory and optional guidelines which you can find in the Doc linked above; the intent being you have to qualify for four or more of the above criteria to safely have proved your point (Much like our laser and lightning feats page). The purpose of this thread is to determine whether the concept is viable and, if so, whether any further edits are required to make this proposal more palatable.
 
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I've messaged all the staff folk that were in the previous thread: Elizhaa, DarkDragonMedeus, UchihaSlayer98, KingTempest16, Bambu, LordGriffin1000, SamanPatou (I think?) and Theglassman12.

EDIT: Messaged Colonel Krukov as well since he was there evaluating my first response on the previous thread on Page 2.

I've also contacted a few more staff members.
 
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@Antvasima Can you ping all the staff members here. Seeing as this is important. @Agnaa also contributed to the previous thread so I am pinging him as well.
 
what were the points of contention last thread?
Here ya go: https://vsbattles.com/threads/we-ne...sal-energy-systems.125760/page-2#post-4208864

Based on that, Hellbeast and I modified the draft to its current form, adding some new criteria and notes along the way. Ineligible Criteria 2 and 5 were axed eventually (Ineligible Criteria 2 being axed because it would literally defeat the whole purpose of using a UES in the first place to scale an environmental feat's energy to one's physicals, and Ineligible Criteria 5 was removed because non-UES energy sources were not really found to have that many differences and we made a new note regarding non-UES stuff).
 
Creation feats in particular need to be shown to be equally-or-less-taxing than normal base attacks, one way of proving this is to see with how much effort the Creation Feat was done, another way to see this is to check if they were holding back on their power or focusing their blasts for precision or for damage control in cases of their casual attacks causing damage over a small area.
This works more for "scaling creation feats to AP via a UES", not to qualify something as an UES.
The energy source must have a core underpinning to the verse’s metaphysical or natural elements and/or must be tightly integrated into the verse’s lore, as this would certainly be a helpful piece of evidence (such as the Force “binding the universe together” and being tied to all life)
This fits more under Supplementary Criteria. The energy system being tied to the lore of the verse is potentially redundant.

A removal of said power source needs to be represented as a dramatic loss in power for the user (even to the point of being no stronger than a normal human)
Agree with the concept, disagree with the point in parenthesis.

In verses you have 4 types of people.

1. Average Human
2. Strong Human
3. Average Human with UES
4. Strong Human with UES

Some people without their UES still pulls off superhuman feats. Saying "being no stronger than a normal human" is a case by case thing where some verses make it like that and some verses don't.
 
This works more for "scaling creation feats to AP via a UES", not to qualify something as an UES.
Yeah, this specific criteria was explicitly tailor-made for Creation Feats and Creation Feats only and so I'm not sure if we should keep it in UES page or just shift it to the Creation Feats page and then link the UES page beside it.

This fits more under Supplementary Criteria. The energy system being tied to the lore of the verse is potentially redundant.
I still think the UES needs to play a fundamental aspect in the verse for it to even be accepted as a legitimate UES.

Agree with the concept, disagree with the point in parenthesis.

In verses you have 4 types of people.

1. Average Human
2. Strong Human
3. Average Human with UES
4. Strong Human with UES

Some people without their UES still pulls off superhuman feats. Saying "being no stronger than a normal human" is a case by case thing where some verses make it like that and some verses don't.
Well, "reduced to being no stronger than a normal human" is just one of the ways to qualify for the criteria, not a strict required evidence. Yes, I agree that one could lose their UES and still be able to perform superhuman level feats but in those cases their un-amped Superhuman levels would be nowhere near their amped states, we wouldn't restrict them from qualifying just because they had superhuman feats in their unamped states.

But the core point still stands:
A removal of said power source needs to be represented as a dramatic loss in power for the user.
 
I agree with removing the part the specifically relates to Creation feats.

  • Needs to explicitly be a common source of power within the verse
    • Not necessarily a main one but it needs to serve as a powersource for several characters

Aren't universal energy system supposed to be the primary system that is used by almost everyone in the universe, not not only a power source for "several" characters.
Like, for example, suppose EnergyX is the energy present inside every living and non-living organism in a verse. But a certain limited faction of characters who are different than the norm, can also use a different EnergyY as their source of power in addition to EnergyX. Universal energy in this scenario should only be EnergyX, but the above point makes it seem like EnergyY will also qualify.
 
I agree with removing the part the specifically relates to Creation feats.
I guess we'll add it to the Creation Feats page then, and then link the UES page beside it.

  • Needs to explicitly be a common source of power within the verse
    • Not necessarily a main one but it needs to serve as a power-source for several characters

Aren't universal energy system supposed to be the primary system that is used by almost everyone in the universe, not not only a power source for "several" characters.
Like, for example, suppose EnergyX is the energy present inside every living and non-living organism in a verse. But a certain limited faction of characters who are different than the norm, can also use a different EnergyY as their source of power in addition to EnergyX. Universal energy in this scenario should only be EnergyX, but the above point makes it seem like EnergyY will also qualify.
Nah fam, Energy Y would then be limited to that specific faction (Unless it goes all-out universal via being taught to people or whatever) while the rest get to use Energy X as the one common source.
 
DIdn't Agnaa mention some inherent problems with equalising creation feats with destructive capacity in the previous thread btw?
 
DIdn't Agnaa mention some inherent problems with equalising creation feats with destructive capacity in the previous thread btw?
I alleviated his concerns, mainly he was having issues as to whether we needed the "Creation Feats to be equally-or-less-taxing than normal base attacks" to be a mandatory requirement, which we do need as a mandatory requirement.

Though like KingTempest and AKM pointed out, this criteria is exclusive to Creation Feats only and generally proving the worth of a UES wouldn't need that requirement if we weren't using Creation Feats to scale, like for say, scaling physicals to a powerful energy blast.
 
I support the idea of having such an explanation, and after reading the document I think it looks good, but I believe it needs some polishing; though, I wouldn't really know how to improve it right now, and I don't have the time to make a deep analysis and reasoning.
Yeah, we're doing a bit of polishing regarding the query KingTempest brought up. If you think anything else needs polishing let us know.
 
I agree with everything else tho and my approval for the page is there, these are just things I have qualms with
The parentheses is the most extreme example; being much weaker but still superhuman works fine - the point is they need to be shown as weaker without their energy source
 
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Not gonna cover creation feats as that was already adressed.

"Needs to explicitly be a common source of power within the verse
  • Not necessarily a main one but it needs to serve as a powersource for several characters"

I dont see why this is mandatory. If there is only one character in a verse that uses a certain type of energy, it shouldn't disqualify them. Correct me if I am mistaken, but the "universal" in UES refers to all abilities having a universal source, not that the system is universal across a verse, right?

"The energy source must have a core underpinning to the verse’s metaphysical or natural elements and/or must be tightly integrated into the verse’s lore, as this would certainly be a helpful piece of evidence (such as the Force “binding the universe together” and being tied to all life)"

Why is a "helpful pice of evidence" considered mandatory? A verse not tieing their powersystem super tight to their lore or natural elements shouldn't be a neccessary requirement. It should be about what it does and how it works, not how glorified it is within the verse.

I am a bit confused about a verse needing to check "at least 4 criteria". There were 4 mandatory criteria. Why even say that you need to check 4 or more criteria when 4 are mandatory anyways? Now that one is being removed, does that mean a verse has to check all three mandatory criteria and one supporting one? While a lot of verses with a UES would pass that, it is not as if I can't come up with a verse that only qualifies for the very first requirement, which is probably the only point I can agree on when it comes to "mandatory" qualifications.
On the other hand, even that one might need rewording, as it currently sounds like a character can only either have one type of energy (if a character uses two types of energies which would qualify for UES each, one might argue it won't qualify) or one type of source for their energy (if a character creates the energy and absorbs it from the surroundings, one might argure it won't qualify). Though I guess that's more so a wording issue.

I am fine with the suplementary critera.

"Magical weapons granting the use of mystical attacks the user cannot otherwise replicate."

This should come with the same exception as totems.

"Characters being wholly mundane without items would be a feat for the items and not the user"

I fail to see how that's an issue. If a character stored their power in an item, why wouldn't it be a UES? An item giving access to a UES shouldn't make it less of a UES.
 
"Needs to explicitly be a common source of power within the verse
  • Not necessarily a main one but it needs to serve as a powersource for several characters"

I dont see why this is mandatory. If there is only one character in a verse that uses a certain type of energy, it shouldn't disqualify them. Correct me if I am mistaken, but the "universal" in UES refers to all abilities having a universal source, not that the system is universal across a verse, right?

yeah I still agree with this tbh, a singular character who has an energy system that acts as a UES shouldn't be barred from it

a UES wasn't ever really restricted to a large group of people, it just typically is with a large group of people, but if a situation ever comes up where the same applies to a singular person then it definitely shouldn't be told no
 
I don't know what people generally think a UES is, but i've always thought of it as a system where you have an energy source that you use for virtually everything you do. Like Ki from dragon ball (obviously), and a lot of the other popular ones. But nowhere was it restricted to only a large group of people, if only 1 dude had Ki in dragon ball but it functioned the exact same, there's no reason it shouldn't qualify.
 
Not gonna cover creation feats as that was already adressed.

"Needs to explicitly be a common source of power within the verse
  • Not necessarily a main one but it needs to serve as a powersource for several characters"

I dont see why this is mandatory. If there is only one character in a verse that uses a certain type of energy, it shouldn't disqualify them. Correct me if I am mistaken, but the "universal" in UES refers to all abilities having a universal source, not that the system is universal across a verse, right?
I knew that was gonna be brought up, and thus, we made this note there specifically for this:

"Scaling a person's unique individual supernatural power (Like a genetic mutation for example) connected to their own internal energy source (Like their stamina, for example), to their physical strength is a case-by-case basis. If the character qualifies the above criteria used to determine the validity of scaling UES-based feats to one physicals, it can be safely assumed that the character's unique abilities scale to his own physical strength as well. If not, it would be safer to assume that the person's abilities scale above their physical strength unless proven otherwise via power scaling"

"The energy source must have a core underpinning to the verse’s metaphysical or natural elements and/or must be tightly integrated into the verse’s lore, as this would certainly be a helpful piece of evidence (such as the Force “binding the universe together” and being tied to all life)"

Why is a "helpful pice of evidence" considered mandatory? A verse not tieing their powersystem super tight to their lore or natural elements shouldn't be a neccessary requirement. It should be about what it does and how it works, not how glorified it is within the verse.
Because said inner energy source's capabilities and inner workings also generally function as a fundamental aspect of said verse's lore, I guess?

I am a bit confused about a verse needing to check "at least 4 criteria". There were 4 mandatory criteria. Why even say that you need to check 4 or more criteria when 4 are mandatory anyways? Now that one is being removed, does that mean a verse has to check all three mandatory criteria and one supporting one? While a lot of verses with a UES would pass that, it is not as if I can't come up with a verse that only qualifies for the very first requirement, which is probably the only point I can agree on when it comes to "mandatory" qualifications.
4 criteria is if it involves a Creation Feat. Now it is three because the 4th criteria was exclusively tailored for Creation Feats, which AKM and KingTempest have agreed to keep for the Creation Feats page instead.

or one type of source for their energy (if a character creates the energy and absorbs it from the surroundings, one might argure it won't qualify). Though I guess that's more so a wording issue.
This part I have some qualms with. What is that energy being forged out of? Is it the character's own internal power source (Like say, stamina and/or UES like Chakra, Ki, whatever)?

I am fine with the suplementary critera.
No issues there.

"Magical weapons granting the use of mystical attacks the user cannot otherwise replicate."

This should come with the same exception as totems.
I... don't see any problems with this, I think DDM already made an argument for this, no? Lemme find it.

EDIT: Here.

"Characters being wholly mundane without items would be a feat for the items and not the user"

I fail to see how that's an issue. If a character stored their power in an item, why wouldn't it be a UES? An item giving access to a UES shouldn't make it less of a UES.
From what I can see here, one would have to prove first that the Character stored their power in said weapon, which I feel is a tad bit specific, but IDK, Hellbeast made this criteria so I'll have to ask him about this.
 
yeah I still agree with this tbh, a singular character who has an energy system that acts as a UES shouldn't be barred from it

a UES wasn't ever really restricted to a large group of people, it just typically is with a large group of people, but if a situation ever comes up where the same applies to a singular person then it definitely shouldn't be told no
We actually have a note for this:

""Scaling a person's unique individual supernatural power (Like a genetic mutation for example) connected to their own internal energy source (Like their stamina, for example), to their physical strength is a case-by-case basis. If the character qualifies the above criteria used to determine the validity of scaling UES-based feats to one physicals, it can be safely assumed that the character's unique abilities scale to his own physical strength as well. If not, it would be safer to assume that the person's abilities scale above their physical strength unless proven otherwise via power scaling""

So yeah, a character with his own unique power source separate from others but having the same criteria would absolutely scale without question, as for "singular energy source" and "common energy source" one could just argue that the character's stamina reserves qualifies for both. Which most of the time it does in fiction.
 
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On the item thing, I thought about it and I guess I could see it. The example I was thinking about is Ronan from the MCU, who has effectively a UES with the power stone in terms of functionality. He could 100% be an example for that.

We actually have a note for this:

""Scaling a person's unique individual supernatural power (Like a genetic mutation for example) connected to their own internal energy source (Like their stamina, for example), to their physical strength is a case-by-case basis. If the character qualifies the above criteria used to determine the validity of scaling UES-based feats to one physicals, it can be safely assumed that the character's unique abilities scale to his own physical strength as well. If not, it would be safer to assume that the person's abilities scale above their physical strength unless proven otherwise via power scaling""

So yeah, a character with his own unique power source separate from others but having the same criteria would scale, as for "singular energy source" and "common energy source" one could just argue that the character's stamina reserves qualifies for both. Which most of the time it does in fiction.
I think the entire thing came from people taking "Universal Energy System" and thinking it had to be widely (or universally) used to qualify. Which is something I very, very strongly disagree with, as when I came up with the term and people started using it, "Universal" was meant to say that it's an energy that they use for everything they do. They use this energy universally for their abilities. Personally, i'd like that to not be a very big thing. Not a requirement by any means.

Also, I am aware it's a staff thread, but I figured it'd be fine since i'm on-topic & was a decently big part of the last thread.
 
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