Didn't the realm of consciousness disappear along with her remaining consciousness?
Welp, womp womp then. I'll be removing conceptual erasure, and Nahida's conceptual erasure should also be removed from her profile. Though, it'll need a CRT; I'll make the removal revision after this is concluded.
there is nothing to remove abt her lol, i was discussing why is she example of why BDE is contradicted by the fact she got erased completely, and irminsul is nahidas realm of conciousness too since shes rukkhadevata too, her incarnation if you wanna be full precise
Rukkhadevatta is/was Irminsul. She had to erase herself to cleanse the tree because she was corrupted, and the only was that was possible was by Nahida doing it. So it’s not a BDE anti feat.
Hate to break it to you but english localization seems wrong. I don't know chinese but it's stated as "world" or "heaven and earth" in chinese website
天地 is actually the ancient concept for the Universe, that the Earth and sky contain all things in creation. Therefore, it is also used to denote the Universe as an archaic term, and it is used in various classic and traditional Chinese literature as well (notably Xianxia novels). Nothing wrong with the English localisation at all.
Normally yes but since it's literally "Earth and sky", it should refer to Celestia and Teyvat. Not to mention, Planet is closed within the barrier and catalysm happened when Vinister king tore that apart in Khaenri'ah. Catalysm happened only in Teyvat and its planet. There was no statement catalysm happening all over the universe. The universe was already filled with abyssal power, that's why Primordial One made the barrier to protect Teyvat. That's why tearing that barrier resulted in catalysm. Using the universe word based on "天地" usage in other medias alone shouldn't suffice. Different media can mean different things.
I believe this depend context tbh, we mainly should be talked about light realm which realm of pure elemental and to be said as purest origin of all thing, hence why their authority even able to create universe. Teyvat just only a planet in human realm that rebuild over light realm, abyss also once stated as ancient world but also multiple time referred as dark universe that exist with infinite possibilities, and light realm exist diametrically oppose it. In Before sun and moon, before primordial one conquer the light realm it's stated to be universe and he trying to seperated the universe with it microcosm.
This most likely assumption i believe, might be true but it's never confirmed yet.
Not really, you could get BDE1 via that if it were the old standards, I do remember someone getting BDE1 at that time through such a notion, but now? Not at all.
No problem.
None of these transformations are shown making the physically stronger. Raiden and Signora get a boost to their elemental powers and Tart's Foul Legacy is an Abyssal power anyway so it wouldn't even count
Again none of the links here show he has gotten physically stronger. But even if he did (which he did tbf) I'd attribute that to him being a giant **** all robot rather than any Gnosis shenahigans unless you have a scan showing that the Gnosis power specifically is making him physically stronger
Allogenes gaining their visions through their ambitions isn't grounds for supernatural willpower, since there's no specification on what those ambitions are or how hard they fight for them. Infact throughout various characters Vision Stories you see them gaining visions for relatively mundane acts such as Alhaitham reading a book or Lisa literally just thinking about getting a vision. Empowerment is fine tho
This is technically not wrong but basically no one would be able to use light manip since the Dainichi Mikoshi was created through knowledge granted by Istaroth (and obviously no one has used light powers in the game so far)
This is a recurring point throughout the page so let's get it out of the way. While it is true that the Genshin world is a leaf of the Imaginary Tree, Teyvat is sealed off from the rest of the Universe via the fake sky and more importantly has it's own laws. Unless similair statements are made about the nature of the Soul in Genshin we shouldn't be crosscaling these rules. So any correlation between the soul and memories/information/conciousness or vice versa should be removed
You... you know allogenes are humans right? They are physical beings, them interacting with eachother wouldn't be NPI
I don't understand the logic here. Elemental energy and souls flow through the Ley Lines but that doesn't mean there's any correlation between the two. Piss and shit both flow through sewage pipes but that doesn't mean they are the same thing or have the same properties (this is the best analogy I could think of)
The wording here is very misleading. Yae's exact quote is "To outsiders the realm of conciousness is a very abstract concept, luckily I am Ei's familiar, so I can sense her rough whereabouts". The use of "abstract concept" here isn't literal, Yae is just saying that the ream of conciousness is hard to grasp and sense for those who aren't familiar with it. Also the cutscene you linked shows no indication that the RoC exists outside of the universe, infact Yae even says that the Chaos surrounding the RoC could sweep the Traveler away to an unknown corner of space-time, implying that the Chaos and by extention the RoC also exist within space-time
This would be a Nahida exclusive ability since she specifically has the power to control Irminsul
The only character that this would apply to is Ei since her conciousness is completely removed from her physical body. For every other god their conciousness would diminiss and fade if their body is destroyed, this also applies to Archons since Makoto died from physical injuries.
"While, for the most part, it was divided into memory, wishes, soul, and persona, a spirit's qualities still carried complex distinctions... Among these, the state that came closest to the perfect freedom that divinities possessed was named "True Will"... The detachment of human will with such meticulous research as a jumping-off point... Perhaps it was through this power that the ancients achieved transcendence from the physical realm." Nothing here says that True Will makes you unbound from souls, memories or elemental energy, geniuenly how did get to this conclusion.
This is a mischaracterization of what True Will is. True Will and the trancendence mentioned is merely the Rumerians discarding their physical bodies through Phobos and having their souls placed in the stone golems, thus making them immortal. It's important to note that even with this trancendence the Rumerians still couldn't escape their fate. So it should be pretty obvious that this doesn't actually qualify for BDE
True Will does not involve trancending the spirit of will or whatever. "The detachment of human will with such meticulous research as a jumping-off point..." It is the detachment of human will from the physical body, not the detachment from human will
Elemental lifeforms are corporeal lol
"Before time had a name, the first Spinjitsu Master created Ninjago" ahh statements
The reality warping part is misleading since the witches can only alter the worlds that they create based on the scan (i.e Simulanka)
HOW IS THIS FATE MANIP BRO???? JUST CAUSE THEY SAY THE WORD KARMA????
This means nothing. I can also plant trees, do I get the ability to do photosynthesis?
The Ley Line Outcrops are formed from someone's desire for battle, they are a property of Ley Lines not an ability of the Traveler's
vsbattles.fandom.com
Nah uh
Well the difference is that Teyvat and it's creatures were specifically shaped by the Primordial One and Genshin souls have the unique property of being able to ascend to godhood after death, so I think it's safer to assume that the Honkai rules don't crosscale. Also I am not familiar with HI3, like at all, but do these bubble universes with different laws retain the same rules regarding the soul?
I did and you still have the allogene justification in there. You do mention the elemental liforms later but then why do you still have the allogene part?
It is not a conceptual realm, like I said the use of concept is simply to say that the idea of a realm of consiousness is hard to grasp. Also Yae outright says that the realm has a spacial location so idk how it can be an actual abstract concept at the same time. To qoute our Concept Manip page:
Yes because the realm is surrounded by Chaos and that Chaos exists within space-time, thus the realm it surrounds also would
Raiden says
It is not out of context
That is not what I said nor is it what is said in the scans. "The detachment of human will with such meticulous research as a jumping-off point..." Those who obtained True Will aren't detached from human will, it's their human will that gets ditached
Yes the eye of the storm is the corporial form of anemo energy and it's an elemental lifeform, thus elemental lifeforms are corporial.
Which doesn't change what I said, just because she planted the tree doesn't mean she has control over the Ley Lines
I guess that's true. It's still weird to give the Traveler all these abilities that they've never even attempted using before based on just this one thing. Hell I don't think they've ever even tried manipulating the Ley Lines in any quest at all
What's that thing that mods say often? "Just because other verses with different rules/contexes do smth doesn't mean we can do it too". It's very hard for me to believe that the people spreading these legends in universe somehow know what happened before the existance of time itself you know
There's a difference between Whataboutism and citing an established precedent. I'm not sure what the situation for this thread is, as I haven't read through it.
The relevance for what I provided is the fact that the Remurians (which are the ancients mentioned in the True Will scan and the ones to have obtained True Will) trancended in the sense that they ditached from their physical bodies and became immortal, which is not grounds for BDE
As was said, there is precedent for this, and that’s an argument from incredulity on your part.
Again different verses where these legends most likely have more reason to be considered factual
It is not. We know that time existed since at least the moment the Primordial One arrived as "Before Sun and Moon" mentions the years following it's arrival and they created humanity 400 years after that, so humans spreadding these legends physically could not have existed before time to know if elements did
I mean, they don’t really have any special rules in place for the lore in said verses. I really don’t know what to tell you other than the fact that lore is generally acceptable, as creators typically just make stuff being legendary to make their information seem cooler. We also don’t know how those legends started in verse. What we do know is that that information is put in game by the game makers on purpose to be taken seriously.
I mean if you wanna play the "what was the writters intention" game I think it's a lot more likely that the whole "before time eixsted" thing is intended to just be flowery language to say that something is really really old
Flowery language is just a fancy way of saying nuh uh.
What do you want from me bro, it's literally a legend and hearsay in universe and "before time existed" is such a common exaggeration for something just being super old (dinosaur media often uses this, so I guess we gotta give all dinosaurs acausality type 4). If there was ever a statement that I could say is flowery language it would be this
How dare you lowball dinosaurs
I personally don't really like the idea of using legends to give solid ratings and abilities, since it is not 100 percent precise either.
It would pertain to souls in Teyvat, but I don't see how it strictly differentiates that from other worlds of the Imaginary Tree. Especially it was on the same screen as Otto's computer.
I'll do a respelling and scrutinity once I post it.
1+1 is also a concept, obviously, that's not hard to grasp.
....huh? This is affirming the consequent.
And it wasn't mentioned that Nahida has control over Irminsul. She could simply be referring to her abilities to control the mind, possess inanimate objects or even manipulate the Akasha Terminal, trapping people in infinite dream loops. This is just pure divine fallacy.
Oh, didn't see that part. My bad then. Though it happens when they die, so I suppose it makes sense; I wouldn't consider that an ability disqualifier. Also, the remains itself can mean anything, especially considering Genshin where gnoses are the remains of the Third Descender, which is a source of divine power.
If it's the latter that you argue, then the passage would've written it like that, they abandon their personal wills. This clearly mentions human will in a general sense.
She used her powers to plant the seed, then the tree grew within seconds. That obviously should hint that its growth is supported by Raiden's powers.
Gianny counters alot of a said evidences and arguments nicely here and below, no thoughts on that?
And I already addressed it all.
This is honestly a very good idea. Thanks for the suggestion.
Same.
Raiden's Hair and Eyes had been glowing long before the cutscene where she held the seed because she had been actively using her powers to battle the Shogun. It wasn't something she suddenly began doing to plant the seed.
No, there's a lot of things you failed to address like Xiao's Karma having Fate Manipulation for whatever reason, Leyline Manipulation for properties of a Leyline, Supernatural Willpower for Vision Users, Elemental Being incorporeality that's never made a thing and more I can't be bothered to scroll up and down for to count
That's blatant Nominal fallacy, Xiao's Karma has never been implied to work in that manner and negative effects it brings are Corruption and Madness Manipulation absolutely 0 evidence for Fate Manipulation.
