Universal Energy Systems

[Antvasima]

I disagree, we've already made several changes to the draft in accordance with his words, and we're in the work of making things a bit clearer.

That's exactly what we're doing ATM, but I also disagree with removing any of the current criteria, since they're not mandatory rules and they serve to be supporting evidence.

That's literally what the point of this thread is about? We literally removed the whole "Mandatory" and "Supplementary" headlines just to hammer this point home.

THEY ARE GUIDELINES, NOT ABSOLUTE MAXIMS.

Well, I personally do not mind, but you have to try to convince AKM and Promestein as well. I can't just overrule them, and wouldn't want to either.

 

[KLOL506]

Well, I personally do not mind, but you have to try to convince AKM and Promestein as well. I can't just overrule them, and wouldn't want to either.

Ant, there are loads of other staff that agree to the idea of having a page for these guidelines, and for good reason. You can't just overrule them either.

Also, like DDM and AKM said, we should still wait for DontTalk's opinion on this. I've already messaged him, I could do so again if you wish. But I'd rather wait until we get the draft in order in accordance with what AKM said.

 

[Antvasima]

Okay. Bureaucrats have the final say about revisions affecting wiki policies as a whole though.

 

[Antoniofer]

Misrepresentation does not tend to happens because there's no guidelines, it generally happens to lack of input in a revision, where users (staff included) only revises the suggested changes shallowly (mostly because they aren't familiarized with the verse in question). Doubt that adding few guidelines will change anything, if any, it will cause more confusion when the guidelines contradict the verse (that may lead users to prioritize the guidelines).

 

[KLOL506]

Okay. Bureaucrats have the final say about revisions affecting wiki policies as a whole though.

I understand, but it's not as if these revisions are changing any wiki policies however, these revisions are only making sure that said policies are actually officially accessible on a page, like the rest of our other wiki policies, like Hellbeast has said.

Regardless, the draft is still not complete, I and Hellbeast will apply the corrections in due time, after which, I'll message DontTalk once more about it.

 

[KLOL506]

Misrepresentation does not tend to happens because there's no guidelines, it generally happens to lack of input in a revision, where users (staff included) only revises the suggested changes shallowly (mostly because they aren't familiarized with the verse in question).

Never said that there were no guidelines, what Hellbeast and I did say that these guidelines were never officially put in a wiki policy page for people to see. And of course, nothing stops people from making a blog about each respective universal energy source for their respective verses for people to check and evaluate. These guidelines will help them have a clearer judgment of whether it qualifies or not.

Doubt that adding few guidelines will change anything, if any, it will cause more confusion when the guidelines contradict the verse (that may lead users to prioritize the guidelines).

I'd like to know how the guidelines could contradict the verse when they're only there to be used as supporting evidence.

 

[Antoniofer]

The supportive evidence to whenever some form of energy's potency scale to others is something that should only be found in the verse in question, not in an unrelated page, that is the issue.

 

[KLOL506]

The supportive evidence to whenever some form of energy's potency scale to others is something that should only be found in the verse in question, not in an unrelated page, that is the issue.

You do realize that the core mechanics of a UES is not unique to just any one verse, right?

Statements of being able to use said energy source for your physical attacks is not unique or limited to any separate UES from another verse.

Statements of direct correlation between universal energy sources and your powers, physical stats and abilities is also not unique.

Statements of the UES having a core underpinning with the lore and/or metaphysical/natural elements is also not exclusive to any UES.

People using singular energy types for all their feats is also not something unique, it also happens in a majority of fictional verses.

Removal of said power source resulting in a drastic reduction of statistics or one's well-being is also not unique, sure, some verses may not be as graphic, but most of the times a UES is indeed shown to be tied to one's stamina levels.

You can't expect us to not have some bare minimums of guidelines of what constitutes a energy source and how it scales to physicals. And it's not like you have to qualify for all of them. Also why are you trying to limit these guidelines to their own respective verses when it's a known fact that these guidelines also match up with a majority of universal energy sources out there?

 

[Antoniofer]

Again, you expect the users to be faithful to the material when scaling all that stuff, as we always have been doing, that suddely a character infuses something with some kind of generic energy or that have 1 to 3 different energy pools do not need to change anything: if there's reasons in-verse to scale then scale, if not, don't. Even as a guideline, it can potentially cause confusion, as users when comparing may not scale when the verse explicitaly has stated to scale, or users may scale when the verse has made clear when scaling is not possible/necessary.

All verses are their own thing, that you gathered a dozen of examples that have common traits regarding pools of energy does not change anything.

 

[KLOL506]

Again, you expect the users to be faithful to the material when scaling all that stuff, as we always have been doing,

You forget that while we have always been doing this we have never specified it anywhere on an official page on how to always do this, how to be faithful to the material when scaling all that stuff. This throws off newer users and like Hellbeast said, it breeds miscommunication.

that suddely a character infuses something with some kind of generic energy or that have 1 to 3 different energy pools do not need to change anything: if there's reasons in-verse to scale then scale, if not, don't.

Why do you think we have the "explicit statements that they scale to each other" as part of the guideline now?

If a verse explicitly states it to be so, then so be it, let them scale. If a story provides statements/evidence that explicit with regards to scaling special-power-based feats and physical feats connected and scaling to each other 1:1, then scale them to it, also, like I already cannot stress enough, the guidelines are not mandatory at all, just supporting evidence to further solidify said statements/pieces of evidence, to act as a bedrock for them.

Even as a guideline, it can potentially cause confusion, as users when comparing may not scale when the verse explicitaly has stated to scale,

Again, read above, if there's explicit statements, they scale outright. After that point, everything is supporting evidence.

or users may scale when the verse has made clear when scaling is not possible/necessary.

If a verse makes clear that scaling the ability to the powers isn't feasible, assuming there is evidence that it falls under the ineligible criteria like being an outlier, or the ultra-powerful attack being much more powerful, taxing/energy-consuming than normal base attacks, or the weapon itself having feats of its own that don't scale to the user because there's no energy source in the weapon to tap into for amping physicals, or the energy-based items not allowing such scaling and needing to be used separately, or characters being able to perform said feats even without said energy source, then don't scale. We have both qualifying criteria and ineligible criteria for a reason, you know.

All verses are their own thing, that you gathered a dozen of examples that have common traits regarding pools of energy does not change anything.

Not sure what you even mean by this so I'm not gonna bother answering that.

 

[Antvasima]

I understand, but it's not as if these revisions are changing any wiki policies however, these revisions are only making sure that said policies are actually officially accessible on a page, like the rest of our other wiki policies, like Hellbeast has said.

Regardless, the draft is still not complete, I and Hellbeast will apply the corrections in due time, after which, I'll message DontTalk once more about it.

Okay. Thank you for helping out. It is best if you try to politely reach an agreement with the other bureaucrats though.

DontTalk agreeing with you should probably greatly help with that.

 

[KLOL506]

Yes, I plan to send him a message later, after Hellbeast and I fix up the draft and add the new criteria based on the concerns of what AKM said.

 

[Antvasima]

Okay.

 

[Hellbeast]

But if the page is still gonna exist it should absolutely just be guidelines.

That has been the intent the entire time

Again, you expect the users to be faithful to the material when scaling all that stuff, as we always have been doing, that suddely a character infuses something with some kind of generic energy or that have 1 to 3 different energy pools do not need to change anything: if there's reasons in-verse to scale then scale, if not, don't. Even as a guideline, it can potentially cause confusion, as users when comparing may not scale when the verse explicitaly has stated to scale, or users may scale when the verse has made clear when scaling is not possible/necessary.

Absolutely would not cause confusion; it makes the concept more accessible to users and you know what propertied you likely should be proving without scrounging forums

And again, this is if that scaling isn’t outright, if the scaling is clear as day that’s fine. We have stated this verbatim throughout the thread and I believe it’s mentioned in the Doc

All verses are their own thing, that you gathered a dozen of examples that have common traits regarding pools of energy does not change anything.

this is kind of a strange argument to me; we equalise verses all the time and our standards are typically consistent between them.

Why is that fine but this is bad?

The supportive evidence to whenever some form of energy's potency scale to others is something that should only be found in the verse in question, not in an unrelated page, that is the issue.

You still have to actually find the supporting evidence in the verse, it’s not as if the page will prove it for you. The whole point of the page is to give you an idea of what could help you prove it

To prove something is SOL you need to consult the fiction to prove it, those respective guidelines only help you with what to prove.

 

[KLOL506]

We have added the additional criteria as per AKM's instructions and added some additional requirements as per the queries of a few comments posted before in the first page.

If we want a guideline, here is one that works:
1. There should be statements or consistent feats that tell us that the AP achieved by making use of an energy system also equals physical AP/dura.
2. There should be statements or consistent feats that tell us that increase in said energy proportionally increases physical AP/dura/speed.

Let's make it more direct and straight to the point.

This is now part of the first main criteria as it was originally:

*Users need to have the capacity to use their powers to directly channel their power through their own bodies and physical objects in a way that quantifiably enhances them such as

**Empowering the user’s own physical characteristics like striking strength, speed and durability (There must be statements or showings that the character's feats performed via the energy system also scales or is equals to their physical strength/speed/durability, and there must also be statements or showings that an increase in power levels also relates to a proportional increase in their physical strength/durability/speed. If this condition is proven, then the statements/showings should be more than enough to prove the character’s abilities also scale to their physicals, at which point the criteria below would merely serve as supporting evidence) (And by "criteria below" I obviously mean criteria 2-6) (I used "power levels" instead of "said energy" because "power levels" sounded more awesome, if that is an issue we can change it, but the point is still the same)

And the seventh criteria:

Direct correlation needs to be established between the universal system and the character’s physical characteristics (Strength, speed and durability), and to their outright power or potential capabilities (There must be evidence/statements that an increase in one’s power level also results in an increase in one’s physical strength/speed/durability) (Once again, I used "power level" instead of "said energy" because "power levels" sounded more awesome, if that is an issue we can change it, but once again the point of the guideline is still the same. And there's obviously the fact that I double-posted the second guideline of yours here since it matched well here as well)

We have also removed references to "battleboarding" and the Creation Feats criteria.

Here's the modified draft (Same link as in OP): https://docs.google.com/document/d/1EWe1IKO8y_HGEqVY-pZzCkT49r6osg99TKyMNtJ6w5I

 

[KLOL506]

DontTalkDT has replied to my message, said he will check it out after he finishes writing his stuff on the Demon King Daimao CRT

 

[Firestorm808]

Sorry. I haven't had a chance to read everything. Can someone give an abridged version of the issue with a franchise example?

 

[GilverTheProtoAngelo]

@KLOL506

1) So there are verses where just by the virtue of having energy in your "ready reserve" you become powerful, without channeling it or whatever.
The more energy one has, the more powerful one becomes, without even using it.
Example :- Naruto(Stamina or also called accessible reserves), DMC, GoW, Bleach.

I call such verses Passive Energy systems.
As you can see despite qualifying as UES, it can appear it does not follow criteria 1.
So in verses where energy channeling is rare, it helps to know if system is passively amping characters.

2) There some verses where just having energy isn't going to amp you. You need to actively channel it to use.
I call these Active Energy Systems.
Examples:- Dragon Ball, Mob Psycho 100(I think)

While these are some clearcut examples, many verses are not blatant. For example in last thread LoZ, and whether Ganon's magic feats scale to his physicals. Since characters can be very picky and choosy on when they use energy, and us not realising when and where energy is used.


The Verse which most suffered from this confusion was Naruto, with every thread devolving into a mess over chakra shenanigans, and questioning whether Shinobi activitely need to use chakra or not for amplification, and confusion over what the hell was stamina. It wasn't untill Uchihaslayer's magnificent CRT that those doubts were put to rest.

So with this I advocate another helpful advise be added to Draft for giving users new perspective on UES of their verses.

1)Some verse have mechnics which allow characters to only amplify their statistics by actively channeling their energies.
Example:- Dragon Ball (Ki)

2)While in some verses have characters be powerful by virtue of their size of energy reserve alone, passively making them powerful without requiring channeling. Example:- Naruto(Stamina)

In both cases, energy systems can be qualified as UES, but it helps in scaling if their types are discerned.

Note:- In Passive Systems ,cases may exist where reserves can be inaccessible/dormant in which case physicals cannot be scaled to those energy pools.
Example:- Naruto(Bijuu Chakra)

 

[Firestorm808]

I see. It would be a case by case basis depending on the consistency of the series.

 

[Hellbeast]

I see. It would be a case by case basis depending on the consistency of the series.

Yeah it depends upon how the series treats the energy source, the Doc is intended as guidelines for ease of proof

 

[GilverTheProtoAngelo]

I see. It would be a case by case basis depending on the consistency of the series.

Yup, but that exactly why I proposed it, to help identify the peculiarities of system to help scaling.
Think of it as an advice the page gives to users.

 

[Agnaa]

Sorry. I haven't had a chance to read everything. Can someone give an abridged version of the issue with a franchise example?

What "issue" exactly?

The issue the OP's trying to resolve, or one of the half a dozen issues people have brought up during the thread?

 

[Hellbeast]

The issue the OP's trying to resolve, or one of the half a dozen issues people have brought up during the thread?

Curiously how many of those issues still remain? We've modded the Doc a few times to account for some issues so if anything needs additions that could be arranged.

 

[KLOL506]

@KLOL506

1) So there are verses where just by the virtue of having energy in your "ready reserve" you become powerful, without channeling it or whatever.
The more energy one has, the more powerful one becomes, without even using it.
Example :- Naruto(Stamina or also called accessible reserves), DMC, GoW, Bleach.

I call such verses Passive Energy systems.
As you can see despite qualifying as UES, it can appear it does not follow criteria 1.
So in verses where energy channeling is rare, it helps to know if system is passively amping characters.

2) There some verses where just having energy isn't going to amp you. You need to actively channel it to use.
I call these Active Energy Systems.
Examples:- Dragon Ball, Mob Psycho 100(I think)

While these are some clearcut examples, many verses are not blatant. For example in last thread LoZ, and whether Ganon's magic feats scale to his physicals. Since characters can be very picky and choosy on when they use energy, and us not realising when and where energy is used.


The Verse which most suffered from this confusion was Naruto, with every thread devolving into a mess over chakra shenanigans, and questioning whether Shinobi activitely need to use chakra or not for amplification, and confusion over what the hell was stamina. It wasn't untill Uchihaslayer's magnificent CRT that those doubts were put to rest.

So with this I advocate another helpful advise be added to Draft for giving users new perspective on UES of their verses.

This one looks more of a case-by-case basis approach from the looks of it, yes.

The active/passive thing I mean.

Also doesn't DMC fall under both active and passive? Dante can clearly amp his weapons to his own level as seen when he one-shotted Argosax.

EDIT: BTW, here's a criterion I made from this (Basically short form for the page)-

• Some verses have different ways of utilizing their universal energy sources, either actively or passively.
  • Some verses have mechanics which allow characters to only amplify their statistics by actively channeling their energies.
    Example: Dragon Ball (Ki)
  • While some verses have characters be automatically powerful by virtue of their energy reserves and their sheer size alone, passively making them powerful without requiring to channel their energy. For example: Naruto (Stamina), Devil May Cry (Demonic Energy, can also be used actively to amplify weapons), Bleach (Reiatsu), etc.
    • In both cases, energy systems can be qualified as UES, but it helps in scaling if their types are discerned.
    • Note: In passive systems, cases may exist where reserves can be inaccessible/dormant, in which case, one’s physical strength cannot be scaled to said energy pools. (For example, Bijuu/Tailed Beast Chakra in Naruto)
    • Note: In cases regarding both active and passive systems, often at times letting one’s guard down against an attack (like for example, being distracted, or being attacked when they are asleep/unconscious/unaware of an incoming attack), can often at times result in a sharp drop in one’s power level and even their physical strength and durability. This should preferably be determined on a case-by-case basis.
  • Note: This specific criterion is to be determined on a case-by-case basis depending upon the consistency of the series/verse.

 

[GilverTheProtoAngelo]

This one looks more of a case-by-case basis approach from the looks of it, yes.

Exactly.
This point helps users identify those different cases, cuz if you know what the peculiarities of systems are you have much smoother time scaling feats in those systems.

 

[KLOL506]

Sorry. I haven't had a chance to read everything. Can someone give an abridged version of the issue with a franchise example?

Prolly a comment Antoniofer made above, gonna have to look to see.

EDIT: Here it is

Doubt that adding few guidelines will change anything, if any, it will cause more confusion when the guidelines contradict the verse (that may lead users to prioritize the guidelines).

This specific line.

 

[KLOL506]

or one of the half a dozen issues people have brought up during the thread?

Curiously how many of those issues still remain? We've modded the Doc a few times to account for some issues so if anything needs additions that could be arranged.

Most of them have been amended for before Prom, Antoniofer and AKM joined in, with the biggest ones mentioned by AKM also having been added into the draft.

 

[KLOL506]

I see. It would be a case by case basis depending on the consistency of the series.

Take note that the whole "active/passive" argument is an entirely separate criteria from what's currently in the draft. Prolly its own beast, given the size.

 

[Agnaa]

Curiously how many of those issues still remain? We've modded the Doc a few times to account for some issues so if anything needs additions that could be arranged.

I'm just trying to facilitate conversation. I have a feeling that, whatever Firestorm wanted to ask about, it wasn't that passive vs active energy system stuff I hadn't seen brought up until 178 posts in.

Also @KLOL Please don't send 4 posts in a row, just edit it if you have more to add and no-one has responded yet.

 

[KLOL506]

I'm just trying to facilitate conversation. I have a feeling that, whatever Firestorm wanted to ask about, it wasn't that passive vs active energy system stuff I hadn't seen brought up until 178 posts in.

It wasn't, you're right on that. It was most likely about Antoniofer's comment regarding the whole "causing more confusion when the guidelines contradict the verse" argument. Which I've clarified to Firestorm now. Also something that Hellbeast debunked.

Also @KLOL Please don't send 4 posts in a row, just edit it if you have more to add and no-one has responded yet.

Sorry about that, it's just that when I usually keep editing my replies people usually forget to reload to see the new edits and they end up replying to an older version so I was doing the replies. My mistake. Won't happen again.

 

[GilverTheProtoAngelo]

Also doesn't DMC fall under both active and passive? Dante can clearly amp his weapons to his own level as seen when he one-shotted Argosax.

Well verses with passive system will have advantage of amplifying themselves further than default.
Since energy Manipulation is possible in both systems.

Only differences between Active and Passive system in which passive system allows default state of character be scaled to energy reserves, wheres characters in active system are only "normal humans" without utilizing Energy. For example Goku gets hurt by bullets when not using Ki. Without Ki he is just a mundane superhuman alien.

 

[Hellbeast]

I'm just trying to facilitate conversation. I have a feeling that, whatever Firestorm wanted to ask about, it wasn't that passive vs active energy system stuff I hadn't seen brought up until 178 posts in.

Yeah that's fine
Passive VS Active was brought up earlier by Gilver as a possible requirement

 

[GilverTheProtoAngelo]

Yeah that's fine
Passive VS Active was brought up earlier by Gilver as a possible requirement

Yeah, I braught it up multiple times in last thread.

 

[Elizhaa]

The page is fine as a guideline page, from what I read.

 

[Stefano4444]

I know this its a staff thread, but seen like other non-staff users have commented before (without mention having the permission from other staff users) i would like to ask something that it was brought in the original thread.

How we suppost to treat hax resistance and hax potency when it come to verses that have an Universal Energy System? In the way i see, we can do like this:

- Hax Potency should be a case-by-case depend by how the specific ability/techinques work, like if its clearly imply and/or show that potency of a hax its depend by the character's level of power, then it was made oblivious that the hax potency its depend by the user's power level.

- Hax Resistance should be treated in a similar way, if a character has proven to be capable to resist certain hax via raw strength, and not because of its own unique physiology/characteristic, then it should be apply to comparable/stronger characters without doubt, less sure when it come to weaker characters.

But before anyone can say it, i'm talking about apply this logic only to characters that use the same UES, this should not be apply to characters who use very different power sources.

Like i don't think Silver Surfer, Thor and Hulk's resistances should scale to each other just because they have comparable strength, that would be just stupid.

 

[KLOL506]

I know this its a staff thread, but seen like other non-staff users have commented before (without mention having the permission from other staff users) i would like to ask something that it was brought in the original thread.

How we suppost to treat hax resistance and hax potency when it come to verses that have an Universal Energy System? In the way i see, we can do like this:

- Hax Potency should be a case-by-case depend by how the specific ability/techinques work, like if its clearly imply and/or show that potency of a hax its depend by the characters's level of power, then it was made oblivious that the hax potency its depend by the user's power level.

- Hax Resistance should be treated in a similar way, if characters have proven to be capable to resist certain hax via raw strength, and not because of their unique physiology, then it should be apply to comparable/stronger characters without doubt, less sure when it come to weaker characters.

But before anyone can say it, i'm talking about apply this logic only to characters that use the same UES, this should not be apply to characters who user very different power sources.

Like i don't think Silver Surfer, Thor and Hulk's resistances should scale to each other just because they have comparable strength, that would be just stupid.

Ye, I think it's covered by the note regarding cross-scaling to different power systems. It doesn't just apply to their powers, it also applies to their resistances. They'd need to separately prove with statements/feats/pieces of evidence to have said resistances.

EDIT: Hellbeast has suggested to add additional guidelines for the hax section, here's a try-

• Similarly, in verses with a universal energy source, hax potency should be determined on a case-by-case basis depending on how the specific technique/ability works, if the potency of a hax is stated/shown/implied to depend on the character’s power level and so on.
• Hax resistance should be treated in a similar way, it too must depend on how the specific technique/ability works, whether there are statements/evidences/confirmations that the increase in one’s power/energy level also results in an increased amount of resistance to said hax (Assuming said resistance was obtained via raw strength and not because of some unique biological physiology)
• Just like with powers, in a verse with a multitude of power sources amplifying several characters separately, just because one character’s energy source grants said character a set of hax resistances, does not mean that all of the other power sources grant the same exact resistances (Even if their separate power sources follow the same criteria above), it must be individually proved for them first.

The wording's a bit over the place so assistance with cleaning this up is greatly appreciated.

EDIT 2: Most likely best left for another thread I suppose. Like this.

 

[Antvasima]

I suppose that I should wait with calling Promestein and AKM again until after DontTalk has evaluated all of this.

 

[KLOL506]

I suppose that I should wait with calling Promestein and AKM again until after DontTalk has evaluated all of this.

Sure, no problem.

 

[KLOL506]

-snip-

OK, so I've talked with a few folk, I think it's best left for another thread.

I think it was settled in this thread, but it might be lacking new points. IDK.

 

[Stefano4444]

• Similarly, in verses with a universal energy source, hax potency should be determined on a case-by-case basis depending on how the specific technique/ability works, if the potency of a hax is stated/shown/implied to depend on the character’s power level and so on.
• Hax resistance should be treated in a similar way, it too must depend on how the specific technique/ability works, whether there are statements/evidences/confirmations that the increase in one’s power/energy level also results in an increased amount of resistance to said hax (Assuming said resistance was obtained via raw strength and not because of some unique biological physiology)
• Just like with powers, in a verse with a multitude of power sources amplifying several characters separately, just because one character’s energy source grants said character a set of hax resistances, does not mean that all of the other power sources grant the same exact resistances (Even if their separate power sources follow the same criteria above), it must be individually proved for them first.

Looks perfect to me.