Universal Energy Systems

[Hellbeast]

Turning basic scaling into "character require x energy, energy that needs to be common in all the verse, present in every character or object; then, in order to scale to physicals, one needs to infuse weapons with such energy, amplifying its properties and blah blah... Btw, even if the requeriments are met, if the verse say 'no scale' then it does not scale" is just adding more words to the basic case-by-case method of scaling, that may cause more confusion at the end.

It wouldn’t though, it would establish the precedent for how to treat these elements

Because again, there is no way to get the information currently

 

[AKM sama]

I am personally fine with AKM's suggestion, although the language structure would need to be improved, and possibly expanded upon somewhat.

My suggestion doesn't need a page. It's like making a page on "how to prove your character is planet level".
The content of that page would be:
1. Prove it by feats
2. Prove it by statements
3. Prove it by powerscaling

My suggestion is literally the same. Instead it is "how to prove that your characters special/energy attacks scale to their physicals and an increase in the energy level also means increase in physical stats"
1. Prove it by showing such feats
2. Prove it by showing an explanation about this in the verse

 

[KLOL506]

My suggestion doesn't need a page. It's like making a page on "how to prove your character is planet level".
The content of that page would be:
1. Prove it by feats
2. Prove it by statements
3. Prove it by powerscaling

Except we're talking about Universal Energy Systems here. Your stuff in this part literally mentions nothing about situations where a UES is heavily in play.

My suggestion is literally the same. Instead it is "how to prove that your characters special/energy attacks scale to their physicals and an increase in the energy level also means increase in physical stats"
1. Prove it by showing such feats
2. Prove it by showing an explanation about this in the verse

I wrote the same thing but with a little bit more detail, like this:

• Users need to have the capacity to use their powers to directly channel their power through their own bodies and physical objects in a way that quantifiably enhances them such as:
  • Empowering the user’s own physical characteristics like striking strength, speed and durability
    • There must be statements or showings that the character's feats performed via the energy system also scales or is equals to their physical statistics.
    • There must also be statements or showings that an increase in power/energy levels or that an increase in the amount of energy used from the energy system also relates to a proportional increase in their physical statistics. (A good example is Ki from Dragon Ball, where a higher amount of ki/power levels results in proportionally higher levels of physical punching strength, speed, durability and aerial capabilities)
• Direct correlation needs to be established between the universal energy system and the character’s physical characteristics and to their outright power or potential capabilities (There must be evidence/statements/showings that an increase in one’s power/energy level, or an increase in the amount of energy/power used from the energy system, also results in a proportional increase in one’s physical statistics)

Is that not enough?

 

[Antoniofer]

UES is not a real thing that exist beyond the proposed guideline; whenever the character extract energy from itself or from an external source is irrelevant at the moment of scaling, not without feats or statements.

 

[KLOL506]

UES is not a real thing that exist beyond the proposed guideline; whenever the character extract energy from itself or from an external source is irrelevant at the moment of scaling, not without feats or statements.

Okay and? Ignoring the fact that stuff like Chakra and Ki exist to spite your claim, what you just said is also irrelevant regarding putting up guidelines regarding what questions to ask to see if said energy system allows scaling abilities to physical stats.

 

[Antoniofer]

I don't see how chakra or ki spite my claim, if techniques scales to physcial strength there is due those verses having the proof for scaling or statements (in case of ki, that I believe it refer to DB, it just revolve at scaling), not because they use an universal system or alike (is even ki universal in DB? magic also exist there, as well as psychic powers).

 

[KLOL506]

I don't see how chakra or ki spite my claim, if techniques scales to physcial strength there is due those verses having the proof for scaling or statements

You do realize that the whole "proof for scaling or statements" is literally part of the damned criteria, yeah? This is heavily emphasized upon twice in a row in the mandatory criteria in the draft, mandatory criteria I copied word for word from AKM when he first posted it.

Also, what if those verses state that it's due to the energy they're manipulating and focusing on their fists for amping themselves to the same level as their blasts, which is exactly what happens in Naruto and Dragon Ball literally almost every damn time there's a high-intensity fight involved (Which also falls under the "Direct Correlation/Higher power level results in a proportionally higher physical stat level" guideline that AKM recommended)? Power-scaling is absolutely an important factor, nobody's denying that at all. It's why it's in the power-scaling pages to begin with.

(in case of ki, that I believe it refer to DB, it just revolve at scaling), not because they use an universal system or alike (is even ki universal in DB? magic also exist there, as well as psychic powers).

Ki is definitely universal in DB, magic is indeed present alongside psychic powers, but Ki plays a much, much larger role in the verse than most people give it credit for.

 

[Antvasima]

My suggestion doesn't need a page. It's like making a page on "how to prove your character is planet level".
The content of that page would be:
1. Prove it by feats
2. Prove it by statements
3. Prove it by powerscaling

My suggestion is literally the same. Instead it is "how to prove that your characters special/energy attacks scale to their physicals and an increase in the energy level also means increase in physical stats"
1. Prove it by showing such feats
2. Prove it by showing an explanation about this in the verse

So in which page should we place your instructions then?

 

[AKM sama]

Except we're talking about Universal Energy Systems here. Your stuff in this part literally mentions nothing about situations where a UES is heavily in play.

What is UES? We are only talking about a verse's mechanics whether it allows the energy attacks to scale to physicals or not. We don't need to complicate something as simple as that. It doesn't need to be given a name.

• Users need to have the capacity to use their powers to directly channel their power through their own bodies and physical objects in a way that quantifiably enhances them such as:
  • Empowering the user’s own physical characteristics like striking strength, speed and durability
    • There must be statements or showings that the character's feats performed via the energy system also scales or is equals to their physical statistics.
    • There must also be statements or showings that an increase in power/energy levels or that an increase in the amount of energy used from the energy system also relates to a proportional increase in their physical statistics. (A good example is Ki from Dragon Ball, where a higher amount of ki/power levels results in proportionally higher levels of physical punching strength, speed, durability and aerial capabilities)
• Direct correlation needs to be established between the universal energy system and the character’s physical characteristics and to their outright power or potential capabilities (There must be evidence/statements/showings that an increase in one’s power/energy level, or an increase in the amount of energy/power used from the energy system, also results in a proportional increase in one’s physical statistics)

See, that's fine. My point was do we really need a page for something as basic as this? At the core, without all the fancy words, it just boils down to:
1. Show that the energy attacks scale to physicals
2. Show that physicals are tied with the level of energy possessed by the character
Isn't this already very intuitive for anybody who is going to prove that an energy system is tied to the physical stats of characters in the verse? If it is, why do we need to make a page for it?

 

[KLOL506]

What is UES? We are only talking about a verse's mechanics whether it allows the energy attacks to scale to physicals or not. We don't need to complicate something as simple as that. It doesn't need to be given a name.

Guess we can agree to disagree there. It really wouldn't be complicating anything other than giving a name to these energy systems officially.

See, that's fine. My point was do we really need a page for something as basic as this? At the core, without all the fancy words, it just boils down to:
1. Show that the energy attacks scale to physicals
2. Show that physicals are tied with the level of energy possessed by the character
Isn't this already very intuitive for anybody who is going to prove that an energy system is tied to the physical stats of characters in the verse? If it is, why do we need to make a page for it?

At least we finally agree on something (Though I'd still say my version is a bit more detailed than yours).

My point is, we can't just expect people to rummage year-old threads for these rules, regardless of how intuitive they are. They need to be put officially somewhere where people can look for these and then ask them when the time comes for evaluating such verses by case-by-case basis situations. And also the other additional case-by-case basis notes would certainly help the case for these core points.

 

[Hellbeast]

This
Even with we severely cut down mine and KLOL’s proposal the key issue remains the same; we can’t just leave year long, multiple page threads as the only source

We need somewhere far more accessible for users to find information

 

[Antoniofer]

What multiple page threads source are we talking about? All previous discussions related to the concept of UES were either verse specific threads/blogs, or threads where reasoning reduced to "energy is energy and thus it scale" type of debate; neither of these threads were troubled by the lack of an UES guidelines.

 

[Agnaa]

This thread's four pages, and the previous thread was eight pages.

 

[KLOL506]

What multiple page threads source are we talking about? All previous discussions related to the concept of UES were either verse specific threads/blogs, or threads where reasoning reduced to "energy is energy and thus it scale" type of debate; neither of these threads were troubled by the lack of an UES guidelines.

Creation Feats. There were troubles regarding that in basically any thread that involved a verse performing a Creation Feat where Weekly was arguing that a UES shouldn't be enough to scale Creation Feats to AP and that there needs to be a Destruction Feat of a similar caliber as well, which DT and the others promptly debunked. But that's already been discussed to death as of late.

 

[Antoniofer]

... Right, although I was not clear enough, I was refering to threads related to verses and their scaling.

 

[Antoniofer]

Personally I would consider Creation feats to be another can of worms.

 

[KLOL506]

Personally I would consider Creation feats to be another can of worms.

Maybe for the effort part, but we concluded in the 2 CRTs dedicated to it that for scaling a Creation Feat to AP you don't need a separate destruction feat on the same level if a UES is at play, as long as the Creation Feat was done with equal or less effort than your attacks (Sure, you can debate regarding what qualifies as "equal or less effort" but we're finished with not needing a separate destruction feat, even have it written in the page). That much was set in stone.

In any case, this thread isn't about that, we're way past that point.

 

[AKM sama]

Creation Feats.

This beast is a thing on its own. I have never seen any confusion about a specific verse's mechanics, or whether their energy attacks scale to physicals. Which is why I don't think a page for the current topic is necessary. But I have seen numerous debates over creation feats and them scaling to destructive power or physicals. And we already have a detailed page for that. I don't think creating this particular page will help in any way for that topic. They are separate.

 

[KLOL506]

This beast is a thing on its own. I have never seen any confusion about a specific verse's mechanics, or whether their energy attacks scale to physicals. Which is why I don't think a page for the current topic is necessary. But I have seen numerous debates over creation feats and them scaling to destructive power or physicals. And we already have a detailed page for that. I don't think creating this particular page will help in any way for that topic. They are separate.

Like I said, Creation Feats was already dealt with in those CRTs, so there's no point in talking about that anymore. It was just an example.

This thread is more so about scaling energy blast-based attacks (Or supernatural-based attacks) to physical stats via an energy system, which may or may not face the same amount of scrutiny as Creation Feats.

Also people have brought up issues regarding cloud feats (Even KE ones), temperature feats, but most importantly, other high-power energy based attacks and even feats not involving creation but involving separating universes or fusing them (And some of these said feats including all of the above methods involving weapons and somesuch) and so on and so forth, and then scaling them to physicals just because of an energy system, because they didn't know of the guidelines before-hand.

There's also the issue that some of the people here may think your requirements to be too lax or too forgiving, many of the other staff members having said as much. Even so, we've cut down the number of requirements to the main mandatory two guidelines you suggested, while putting said criteria into the notes to serve as supporting non-mandatory evidence. I believe those notes should at least deserve a mention so that some form of quality control can be maintained.

But the two main guidelines definitely need to be mentioned officially somewhere.

 

[Stefano4444]

UES is not a real thing that exist beyond the proposed guideline; whenever the character extract energy from itself or from an external source is irrelevant at the moment of scaling, not without feats or statements.

Neither its things like Outlier and Inconsistency, yet we have pages dedicated to that.

 

[AKM sama]

Also people have brought up issues regarding cloud feats (Even KE ones), temperature feats, but most importantly, other high-power energy based attacks and even feats not involving creation but involving separating universes or fusing them (And some of these said feats including all of the above methods involving weapons and somesuch) and so on and so forth, and then scaling them to physicals just because of an energy system, because they didn't know of the guidelines before-hand.

I mean, even with a guideline this won't be a 100% solid line that says "this verse has energy tied to physicals so all kinds of attacks and techniques scale to physicals". Even in the presence of such a system, context is important. A verse can treat anything differently. The example you mentioned about clouds could just be Environmental Destruction. The example about merging universes could just be reality warping hax. There would be cases where these things won't scale to physicals even in a system where normal energy attacks do. Hell, even if normal attacks do, there will be special attacks that won't. A guideline won't solve this as these things are context-dependent.

And if the result of creating this guideline would be that people won't check the context of these feats and automatically default to scaling them to physicals, then this guideline will do more harm than good.

Neither its things like Outlier and Inconsistency, yet we have a page dedicated to that.

Both of them are real things... and very important even. Outlier is literally a topic you study when you study statistics, which is the point of this wiki.

 

[KLOL506]

I mean, even with a guideline this won't be a 100% solid line that says "this verse has energy tied to physicals so all kinds of attacks and techniques scale to physicals". Even in the presence of such a system, context is important. A verse can treat anything differently. The example you mentioned about clouds could just be Environmental Destruction. The example about merging universes could just be reality warping hax. There would be cases where these things won't scale to physicals even in a system where normal energy attacks do. Hell, even if normal attacks do, there will be special attacks that won't. A guideline won't solve this as these things are context-dependent.

And if the result of creating this guideline would be that people won't check the context of these feats and automatically default to scaling them to physicals, then this guideline will do more harm than good.

Why do you pretend that we wouldn't ask for context in these cases? What gave you that idea? We absolutely will. Finding context is absolutely part of the evidence-collecting process.

Don't you realize that even with these guidelines we'd still need CRTs, where the discussion and the evidence collection happens? Why do you think we have the whole "showings and statements" gig going on to begin with? Collecting context falls under that as well.

 

[Stefano4444]

Both of them are real things... and very important even.

But within a story of a fictional series? Do you think the authors care if a feat its "consistent" with other feats?

No, yet we still care about this, same with UES.

 

[Antvasima]

I mean, even with a guideline this won't be a 100% solid line that says "this verse has energy tied to physicals so all kinds of attacks and techniques scale to physicals". Even in the presence of such a system, context is important. A verse can treat anything differently. The example you mentioned about clouds could just be Environmental Destruction. The example about merging universes could just be reality warping hax. There would be cases where these things won't scale to physicals even in a system where normal energy attacks do. Hell, even if normal attacks do, there will be special attacks that won't. A guideline won't solve this as these things are context-dependent.

And if the result of creating this guideline would be that people won't check the context of these feats and automatically default to scaling them to physicals, then this guideline will do more harm than good.

This makes sense to me.

 

[KLOL506]

This makes sense to me.

And I already explained that these guidelines were not made in mind to just ignore context behind the feat.

 

[Antvasima]

Okay.

 

[Hellbeast]

Yeah you’ll still need to prove a UES with context, no Idea why that argument remotely came up

 

[KLOL506]

Yeah you’ll still need to prove a UES with context, no Idea why that argument remotely came up

Perhaps I could add additional details regarding needing context behind the feat? Not sure how to word it alongside the existing criteria tho. Since this is supposed to already be part of the whole "showings and statements" part of the sentence. I don't get how anyone could miss that.

Sure, context can vary depending on verse-to-verse, but you still have to show it at the bare minimum.

I get that not all showings and statements are going to be matching one-on-one with every other verse's statements/showings out there, but that's not the point, point is, we're merely asking to show proof of such statements and making the related questions needing to be asked as something people can view on official pages on the wiki itself and not as some unofficial "common sense" rules, as we have seen, common sense isn't something that grows in everyone's garden.

 

[Agnaa]

I mean, even with a guideline this won't be a 100% solid line that says "this verse has energy tied to physicals so all kinds of attacks and techniques scale to physicals". Even in the presence of such a system, context is important. A verse can treat anything differently. The example you mentioned about clouds could just be Environmental Destruction. The example about merging universes could just be reality warping hax. There would be cases where these things won't scale to physicals even in a system where normal energy attacks do. Hell, even if normal attacks do, there will be special attacks that won't. A guideline won't solve this as these things are context-dependent.

And if the result of creating this guideline would be that people won't check the context of these feats and automatically default to scaling them to physicals, then this guideline will do more harm than good.

I actually disagree here. If a verse establishes that the same energy source used to move clouds is used to empower physical strikes, that should always scale. I can't imagine any context where it would just be environmental destruction.

And if you think merging universes is just reality warping hax, you should revise that. Currently our site accepts merging universes (despite being a non-destructive technique impossible to do with raw energy output) to be a feat of 2-C AP feat, which can scale to a character's durability and can be used to overcome other character's durability in a fight. Treating it as reality warping hax is understandable, but would need to be done in every situation, and would require a revision.

The way the site as a whole treats, not even just energy systems, but all of a character's attacks, has it such that even stronger techniques have the weakest attacks usually backscaled to them. "There's no reason the character would be THAT much weaker with a different technique or in a different scene, it's all the same source." If you want to solve that you can't just brush the issue under the rug. And despite what you claim, a guideline can solve this, by establishing which context a verse needs for this.

A sample guideline for this is already on the Creation Feats page, but is currently unenforced. Techniques should only scale if they use the same or more energy. There's no reason this couldn't be applied to a UES too. Although someone off-site (possibly @Tllmbrg ?) took issue as some verses have magic a character's less experienced in be more exhausting, despite being weaker.

Still, I strongly believe that, if you want to solve this, including any indication not to do what we rampantly do would be better than continuing the status quo.

 

[KLOL506]

I actually disagree here. If a verse establishes that the same energy source used to move clouds is used to empower physical strikes, that should always scale. I can't imagine any context where it would just be environmental destruction.

The way the site as a whole treats, not even just energy systems, but all of a character's attacks, has it such that even stronger techniques have the weakest attacks usually backscaled to them. "There's no reason the character would be THAT much weaker with a different technique or in a different scene, it's all the same source." If you want to solve that you can't just brush the issue under the rug. And despite what you claim, a guideline can solve this, by establishing which context a verse needs for this.

A sample guideline for this is already on the Creation Feats page, but is currently unenforced. Techniques should only scale if they use the same or more energy. There's no reason this couldn't be applied to a UES too. Although someone off-site (possibly @Tllmbrg ?) took issue as some verses have magic a character's less experienced in be more exhausting, despite being weaker.

Still, I strongly believe that, if you want to solve this, including any indication not to do what we rampantly do would be better than continuing the status quo.

Damn, Agnaa agreeing with me for once?

And if you think merging universes is just reality warping hax, you should revise that. Currently our site accepts merging universes (despite being a non-destructive technique impossible to do with raw energy output) to be a feat of 2-C AP feat, which can scale to a character's durability and can be used to overcome other character's durability in a fight. Treating it as reality warping hax is understandable, but would need to be done in every situation, and would require a revision.

Not gonna tackle the "universe-merging thing" since we both know how much of a shitshow that can be (In any case I only brought it up as an example to show that people keep questioning about our standards regarding scaling supernatural abilities to physical strength). But honestly, if you ask me, it shouldn't be assumed to be reality warping hax by default, feats like these are best left to be determined on a case-by-case basis approach depending upon how each verse treats it, how it happens in said verse and how the energy system at play works in said verse.

 

[AKM sama]

I actually disagree here. If a verse establishes that the same energy source used to move clouds is used to empower physical strikes, that should always scale. I can't imagine any context where it would just be environmental destruction.

Context matters. Even in the verse that establishes that the same energy source that is used to do energy attacks is also used to empower physical strikes, but things like moving clouds or causing a storm are not vanilla energy attacks. It depends on how they are performed. There can exist different kinds of attacks in such a verse that wouldn't scale to physical strikes, attacks that only exist to deal significantly higher damage than the character is normally capable of. If such an attack ends up moving clouds or creating a storm or whatever, it wouldn't scale to physicals.

And if you think merging universes is just reality warping hax, you should revise that. Currently our site accepts merging universes (despite being a non-destructive technique impossible to do with raw energy output) to be a feat of 2-C AP feat, which can scale to a character's durability and can be used to overcome other character's durability in a fight. Treating it as reality warping hax is understandable, but would need to be done in every situation, and would require a revision.

No? It's not a default assumption (is it listed somewhere?). Merging universes and stuff like that can be AP and can scale to physicals in certain conditions but they are primarily hax (reality warping). Yes, characters are granted 2-C tier but in many cases that tier is just with that particular hax, and they don't scale to it physically. This is similar to how characters who can create universes get the tier via reality warping, but it doesn't scale to physicals despite us treating creation = destruction, and despite the verse having an energy system in which energy attacks scale to physicals. An example of this would be Super Shenron.

Why do you pretend that we wouldn't ask for context in these cases?

We definitely would. But then again, we would check the context for every verse and its mechanics separately. And I think what needs to be checked is very intuitive on its own, which is why I don't really feel the need for a page. And I definitely don't feel the need to include all that irrelevant noise that was there in the draft earlier. If it's the cut-down version, I can at most be neutral.

Also, probably it should be added that even if such a system is proven to exist where energy attacks scale to physicals, it still doesn't guarantee that all forms of attacks would scale to physicals. (And this would lead to separate threads determining which kinds of attacks scale and which don't, which just boils down to discussing the details of verse mechanics for each verse. So even if this guideline is added, each verse would need a separate discussion for its mechanics with its separate context.)

 

[KLOL506]

Context matters. Even in the verse that establishes that the same energy source that is used to do energy attacks is also used to empower physical strikes, but things like moving clouds or causing a storm are not vanilla energy attacks. It depends on how they are performed. There can exist different kinds of attacks in such a verse that wouldn't scale to physical strikes, attacks that only exist to deal significantly higher damage than the character is normally capable of. If such an attack ends up moving clouds or creating a storm or whatever, it wouldn't scale to physicals.

I mean, like Agnaa said, if the verse explicitly confirms, states and even shows that the energy used to manipulate the storms is the same exact energy type used to amp physicals, or if that same energy from the storm is used to amp one's punches, is that not enough context?

Also there's always the "Ultimate Attack" card, you know.

No? It's not a default assumption (is it listed somewhere?). Merging universes and stuff like that can be AP and can scale to physicals in certain conditions but they are primarily hax (reality warping). Yes, characters are granted 2-C tier but in many cases that tier is just with that particular hax, and they don't scale to it physically. This is similar to how characters who can create universes get the tier via reality warping, but it doesn't scale to physicals despite us treating creation = destruction, and despite the verse having an energy system in which energy attacks scale to physicals. An example of this would be Super Shenron.

Yes, this would need to be determined on a case-by-case basis. And AFAIK, no, it is not listed anywhere to be a default assumption at all.

We definitely would. But then again, we would check the context for every verse and its mechanics separately. And I think what needs to be checked is very intuitive on its own, which is why I don't really feel the need for a page. And I definitely don't feel the need to include all that irrelevant noise that was there in the draft earlier. If it's the cut-down version, I can at most be neutral.

OK and? The core point is still the same, ASKING FOR CONTEXT. Doesn't matter what context the verse gives or how it presents it. What matters is that we ask it and that said context fits the guidelines of scaling. Surely you do realize that the "Asking for context" question can be used for any verse, right?

Also all that irrelevant noise has been moved to the notes section, as I have repeated several times. They aren't criteria any longer. Only criteria that remains are the two mandatory ones, the "loss of power" one and the "active/passive system" criteria which is already designated as a case-by-case basis criteria.

Also, probably it should be added that even if such a system is proven to exist where energy attacks scale to physicals, it still doesn't guarantee that all forms of attacks would scale to physicals. (And this would lead to separate threads determining which kinds of attacks scale and which don't, which just boils down to discussing the details of verse mechanics for each verse. So even if this guideline is added, each verse would need a separate discussion for its mechanics with its separate context.)

Sure, there's always the occasional Ultimate Attacks existing and scaling above physicals and whatnot. Take Goku's Spirit Bomb for example. Same energy type as all his other ki-based attacks, except Spirit Bomb is the strongest of them all, it scales well above his physical stats most of the time and he's always used it as a last resort against super-OP foes like Vegeta, Frieza and Buu.

And even if they qualify the two main guidelines we'd still need CRTs for said verse.

 

[AKM sama]

I mean, like Agnaa said, if the verse explicitly confirms, states and even shows that the energy used to manipulate the storms is the same exact energy type used to amp physicals, or if that same energy from the storm is used to amp one's punches, is that not enough context?

I was not disagreeing with Agnaa. If the verse makes it clear then it scales. I was just explaining my own previous point, which is a different case.

 

[Agnaa]

Context matters. Even in the verse that establishes that the same energy source that is used to do energy attacks is also used to empower physical strikes, but things like moving clouds or causing a storm are not vanilla energy attacks. It depends on how they are performed. There can exist different kinds of attacks in such a verse that wouldn't scale to physical strikes, attacks that only exist to deal significantly higher damage than the character is normally capable of. If such an attack ends up moving clouds or creating a storm or whatever, it wouldn't scale to physicals.

It's pretty easy to include the caveat that ultimate attacks, as they're usually rated separately, require their own evidence that they scale. Or if you want to be more strict, require evidence that the physical attacks use (explicitly equal or) more from the energy source than the magical attacks you're scaling it to.

No? It's not a default assumption (is it listed somewhere?). Merging universes and stuff like that can be AP and can scale to physicals in certain conditions but they are primarily hax (reality warping). Yes, characters are granted 2-C tier but in many cases that tier is just with that particular hax, and they don't scale to it physically. This is similar to how characters who can create universes get the tier via reality warping, but it doesn't scale to physicals despite us treating creation = destruction, and despite the verse having an energy system in which energy attacks scale to physicals. An example of this would be Super Shenron.

Ignoring all the cases where it obviously doesn't scale, I don't see why characters with an energy system that scales it to physicals wouldn't have it scale to physicals. By tiering it as Low 2-C/2-C etc. we're indicating that that ability requires that amount of energy, and if the character can use that amount of energy for their physical blows, it should scale. If you're not doing this, then frankly I don't see a distinguishing point for some timeline merging feats being hax and some being "raw energy" or whatever.

I'm also pretty sure that reality warping for creation, particularly on smaller scales, is treated the same way. If there's a shared energy system that scales to physicals, we scale it. I think PMMM is like this.

I think that treating reality warping feats as not having an associated energy value, and thus not being scalable, is something that could be done, but would require a policy change as it would change a fair few pages.

 

[KLOL506]

I think that treating reality warping feats as not having an associated energy value, and thus not being scalable, is something that could be done, but would require a policy change as it would change a fair few pages.

Once again, prolly best left to be determined on a case-by-case basis situation instead of going with any policy changes in the first place. Since it's not like we're calculating the energy system's values in any IRL hard metrics but rather the fictional values like "mana amount" or whatever, if any.

 

[Hellbeast]

Keep the universe merging off thread, it’s a bit messy and is probably a separate kettle of fish

 

[KLOL506]

Keep the universe merging off thread, it’s a bit messy and is probably a separate kettle of fish

Ye, best to just leave that stuff as it is and focus on the guidelines themselves.

 

[Hellbeast]

With that established, where do we stand on KLOL's revised pitch?

 

[Hellbeast]

Bump

 

[KLOL506]

Bump

We're still waiting for DDM's response.