Universal Energy System Standards

[DarkDragonMedeus]

i don't understand the disconnect of "we use the same type of energy but not the same amount" and that becoming the mass agreed derailment of the thread. my fridge and my toaster don't use the same amount of electricity, the body and "magic moves" don't use the same amount of energy. that's the whole point.

I have a bit of a feeling that is a false equivalency, because electricity is a natural energy source with limited flexibility and uses compared to basically any kind of Energy System. And at best, that has more in common with a LES than a UES. But a UES as opposed any real world fuel sources is that it's a supernatural energy source that happens to be capable of interchangeably empower a combination of physical uses and metaphysical uses. Though, electricity does have some flexible uses yes; it can be used to produce raw thermal energy, could be used for electric discharges, it could import thermonuclear reactions to generate winds for air conditioning, which is done by producing highly concentrated amounts of energy to cause small scale nuclear diffusions that disperse smaller amounts of thermal energy and produce refrigerant chemicals. We also acknowledge the concept of energy efficiency, as it's scientifically impossible for energy efficiency to via traditional/natural/conventionally demonstrated methods for certain highly concentrated feats such as the deceleration of atomic/molecular kinetic energy to even have decent levels of energy efficiency. And the more exponentially lower one tries to decelerate them, the more exponentially lower the highest demonstrated possible energy efficiency gets. All attempts of forcing an atom or molecule to stop outright literally have 0 as the highest possible energy efficiency, thus requiring hypothetically infinite amounts to perform.

But those are oddly specific. In theory, UES is something that basically requires people to be unafraid to address the supernatural, even if it includes digging into religion or spirituality. Or the possibly that God can both make me someone who can water bend giant waves while also granting me the pure physical strength to lift mountains. And yes, there are plenty of cases where a character is a UES, and verses with lore inspired by religion or spirituality happen to be the magnum opus of that. Yes, some things in the page are considerably worded poorly, but the existence of Ki blasts that uses X times more energy and thus X times stronger are actually supporting evidence of a UES and not counters. Better example of disqualifier of a UES that would be seen more as a NPES or LES is if no amounts of energy buffs of a certain energy system effect physical stats just from receiving more of it or gaining the ability to harness more in one move.

I'm running late for work again because of the last minute notification but if needed, I may need to once again clarify the basic examples apparently.

Or if this will make people one the offense feel better, we can at least get this part out of the way as a general agreement.

Also
PLEASE change the name of the page to "Energy Systems".

Why is it called "UES" then it has 2 other contradicting energy systems

 

[Vietthai96]

Wait, is this about UES in general, or is it about Ki Manipulation in Dragon Ball??. I read the thread, and like, most of what was brought up here was just DB this, Ki that???

And don't tell me, Dragon Ball is going to cause another standard change???

Like seriously, can we talk about general case, not too specific like this? It should be in its own thread, not this thread, which is talking about general standards.

Edit: Changing its name to Energy System is fine

 

[KingTempest]

Wait, is this about UES in general, or is it about Ki Manipulation in Dragon Ball??. I read the thread, and like, most of what was brought up here was just DB this, Ki that???

And don't tell me, Dragon Ball is going to cause another standard change???

Like seriously, can we talk about general case, not too specific like this? It should be in its own thread, not this thread, which is talking about general standards.

Edit: Changing its name to Energy System is fine

#1 It's not about Dragon Ball. It's about UES in general.
#2 Dragon Ball did not cause this thread. It actually wasn't even a anime/manga verse that caused it.
#3 The only reason why Dragon Ball is mentioned so heavily in this thread is because
3a. Dragon Ball doesn't fit the current standards of "Physicals = Superpowered Abilities", and if DB is affected then the whole wiki has a problem
3b. Everyone in here disagrees that Dragon Ball doesn't count as a UES

 

[KLOL506]

If it doesn't fit, leave it for another thread, not this one.

We can just deal with DB and any other verse that may or may not qualify in their own separate dedicated CRTs.

 

[KLOL506]

Either way, this literally could've been solved weeks ago if we just laid down the already-accepted criteria for the into bullet-points:

Limited Energy System:

1. Prove that your energy system scales all attacks within a singular elemental system (Like say, all fire-based attacks) to the same power level (Insert fatigue vs casual BS)

2. Prove that proportional increase in energy usage results in all your attacks within that elemental system getting an equal proportional increase (Example: A power-up stating to multiply by 100x also increasing all of your fire attacks equally by 100x)

Non-Physical Energy System:

1. Prove that your energy system scales all supernatural attacks to the same power level (Insert fatigue vs casual BS) (As the name says, no physical strength being amped)

2. Prove that proportional increase in energy usage results in all your supernatural attacks an equal proportional increase (Example: A power-up stating to multiply by 100x also increasing all of your supernatural attacks equally by 100x)

UES:

1. Prove that your energy system can scale your physical punching/kicking strength to the same power level as your supernatural attacks (Insert fatigue vs casual BS)

2. Prove and show that you can channel said energy into your body parts to make them stronger.

3. Prove that a proportional increase in energy usage results in an equal proportional increase to all physical stats. (Example: A power-up stating to multiply by 100x also increasing physical strength, speed and durability by 100x)

4. Optional (DT wanted it to be that way when it was first made): Prove that a loss of the energy system results in the person being weakened severely or risking death outright (Connection with life-force and what-have-you)

Regarding Agnaa's concerns, I already addressed the fatigue thing being handled nicely by FinePoint and Planck, for the rest of his concerns, they seem to be more on the line of case-by-case basis stuff that shouldn't be ham-fisted into a one-size-fits-all rules, and I intend to stand by that strongly. We are already too needlessly strict with our standards as is, let's not make them impossible to achieve.

Also for the love of all that is holy, please don't ask me if your verse's certain scans qualify for these criteria, I am not the right man to be evaluating verse-related stuff, I already don't know enough of your verse as is. Don't discuss this here either. Make separate threads for 'em and let thread mods and admins and verse supporters shoot each other in a Wild West shootout over that.

 

[KingTempest]

How would we note a distinction between verses that have UES criteria #2 but not criteria #1

 

[Planck69]

How would we note a distinction between verses that have UES criteria #2 but not criteria #1

Short of adding another type between Non-Physical and Universal, I am unsure.

 

[KingTempest]

Short of adding another type between Non-Physical and Universal, I am unsure.

Physical Energy System?

 

[Planck69]

Physical Energy System?

Yeah, honestly it wouldn't even be a small list. From what I see many UES fit into this one.

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

Physical Energy System?

So, you're proposing something that's basically an energy system for pure physical strength amplification to have it's own category? I wouldn't mind that, and first example that would come to mind of what would qualify to my knowledge is the Incredible Hulk's Anger.

But, I would like to here input from DontTalkDT.

 

[KingTempest]

So, you're proposing something that's basically an energy system for pure physical strength amplification to have it's own category? I wouldn't mind that, and first example that would come to mind of what would qualify to my knowledge is the Incredible Hulk's Anger.

But, I would like to here input from DontTalkDT.

I wouldn't say pure physical strength amplification

It's more of "This energy system allows you to amplify your physical strength but not to the same extent as your special abilities"

it's step up from NPES, which only works through magical abilities, but a step down from UES, which makes the strength of your magical abilities equal to your physical capabilities

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

I wouldn't say pure physical strength amplification

It's more of "This energy system allows you to amplify your physical strength but not to the same extent as your special abilities"

it's step up from NPES, which only works through magical abilities, but a step down from UES, which makes the strength of your magical abilities equal to your physical capabilities

I don't think that would really work and each time, and lots of Dragon Ball contentions brought up in this thread sounds like literal headcanon on speaker's end. And also consists of mixing up common misconceptions. In Dragon Ball, Ki Manipulation can amplify physical stats on par with supernatural Ki blasts, but not every character has fully trained to use it. The existence of very specific Final Attacks or Ultimate Attacks was once again, never an official contention against UES qualification but was a footnote common weakness among certain users of those who use a UES. In Dragon Ball, certain Ki Blasts being 2 or 3 times stronger than their regular power levels was just a common limitation amongst weaker characters. Super Kamehameha Wave being 3x stronger than Goku was only applicable during the Goku and Piccolo vs Raditz fight. In the Goku vs Vegeta fight that followed not long after, the gap between his physical attacks and Kamehameha didn't exist anymore; demonstrated when Vegeta no selled a 4x Kaioken amped version of the same KW. And there are plenty of examples in later arcs where the opposite is true regarding pure melee attacks vs Ki blasts. But that is a discussion for its own thread rather than here; and I am quite positive that it was a common debate discussed endlessly.

But the main topic is, contentions with the system itself and certain techniques or users who likely haven't finished their training and/or have not perfected their control over any given UES is a different story altogether. Especially when a UES has things like certain users possessing a self destruction attack many times stronger than their regular attacks, but various users of the same UES within the same verse also literally do have pure striking strength and durability being the strongest ability the user has with all Ki blasts actually being significantly weaker than any of their punches. The existence of at least 1 character like the latter quite literally proves the UES is a UES.

 

[KingTempest]

okay.

please, toss dragon ball.

dragon ball is not the only example given in this thread nor is it the primary one. the primary was actually naruto and chakra. dragon ball was just another showing showing an issue in the wiki because separating the kamehameha and physical stats was a recent addition in the wiki so i made a point to add it.

throughout the wiki, individuals who can amp their strikes with energy rarely do so to the extent of their supernatural attacks, and when they do, it's a special thing.
HxH and Nen. JJK and CE. Bleach and the 50 billion things they got there. Naruto and Chakra. YYH and Reiki.

We need to stop basing the criteria of abilities on Dragon Ball Z.

 

[Planck69]

Yeah, there's been an over fixation on Dragon Ball in this thread. Several other energy systems have the same issues of physical amplification being a thing but not the full extent of their supernatural abilities

Having a separate tier for them is fine.

 

[KingTempest]

Thank you.

The same way we separate

• Chi from Non-Avatar Benders (Avatar: The Last Airbender)

and

• The Avatar's Chi (Avatar: The Last Airbender)

on the UES page

if we find people who can break their non UES rule and apply a true genuine UES then we can and will

dragon ball z is not the end all be all. another thread can be made to see if it truly qualifies but like... we aren't removing the addition of an ability cause DBZ don't qualify

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

I was thinking about Naruto and Avatar when it came to "The existence of energy systems within energy systems" or how there are verses where LES's, NPES's, and UES's can all exist withing the same verse. But yes, general Chakra in Naruto is still listed under UES section despite revisions, but Chakra should be broken up based on each of the 5 elemental Charkas and then there are Yin and Yang Chakra.

• Fire Chakra (Katon)
• Wind Chakra (Futon)
• Lightning Chakra (Raiton)
• Earth Chakra (Doton)
• Water Chakra (Suiton)

All of the following are individually Linear Energy Systems, and two or more of them can form like Kekkai Genkai to basically form Non-Physical Energy Systems out of those two; but I am feeling glad we appear to be on a similar page on this front. But in addition to all five of those, there is the Yin-Yang release.

• Yin Chakra (Inton): Consists of spiritual and imagination energy such as Genjutsu or Nara Clan's Shadow Possession Jutsu
• Yang Chakra (Yoton): Based on Physical energy and Vitality such as Physical Expansion techniques and Medical Ninjutsu
• Yin-Yang Chakra (Onmyoton): Puts the previous two together to make something more flexible

There is no official name for what type of Chakra is being used to enhance the power of raw Taijutsu strength or the Inner Gates of Lee or Gai, but it is still considered Chakra. But what it has the most in common with is Yang Chakra. Out of all Chakra abilities, I will say Yin-Yang appears to be the only real type of Chakra that could qualify as a UES, but every known user of it seems to have some techniques considerably stronger than their casuals or regular attacks including the god tiers. Which in itself isn't exactly a contention against anything being a UES. I kind of feel that Naruto's god tiers kind of have a conclusion where there is definitely a UES in play, but it's a shame even the god tiers suck at actually using it to its fullest potential. I will at the very least say that Tsunade and Sakura would be best sources for actually finding a full UES, where they use basically precise perfect medical ninjutsu. But it's not really stated what nature of that Chakra is aside from it just saying they use Chakra.

Then there is Avatar the Last Airbender. That's also pretty dated on where it is listed on our page yes. But it did go a bit half way in breaking up the energy systems within energy systems. But the 7 Chakras are broken as such.

• Earth Chakra: Obviously where Earth benders get their powers from, but even nonbenders have it where it's limited to standing strength
• Water Chakra: Obviously where Water benders get their powers from, but even nonbenders have it where it's based on emotional health
• Fire Chakra: Obviously where Fire benders get their powers from, but even nonbenders have it as a Willpower, Drive, Determination thing
• Air Chakra: Obviously where Airbenders get their powers from, but even nonbenders have it for compassion and true love
• Sound Chakra: While not some elemental Sound bending, it is for internal truth and has assisted things like Airbenders having astral projection, Waterbenders being able to tame spirits, and Firebenders being able to harness the pure energy of dragon fire
• Light Chakra: While once again, there are no known "Light benders," it grants insight and the ability to see through illusion. It's what Waterbenders use to become gifted healers and Toph especially demonstrates using this as seismic sense to see with her feat, become a human lie detector by sensing vibrations of heart beats, and most of all, it enabled her to learn metal bending. It also supposedly has some effect on Combusion Bending among Firebenders.
• Thought Chakra: Final step at mastering the Avatar State, but also was what enables lots of other things like Zaheer learning true flight or Amon and Yakone being able to bloodbend without even moving their bodies. And while Sound Chakra was involved with the resoning of the Astral Projection ability of Airbenders, the actual spiritual ability to enter the Spirit World is done using Thought Chakra.

Just about all of these are indeed LES individually but become more NPES when 2 or more of these work together as explained by DontTalkDT on the original thread. And what could but not 100% certain could qualify as a full UES would be Thought Chakra being used to fully master the Avatar State. It could still be using more clarification on the UES page, but still better start than how Naruto's Chakra is currently organized as at least.

 

[Phsccarvalho]

I’ve been given permission by @DarkDragonMedeus to ask a few questions.

1 - Will there be something like a reevaluation thread? Similar to the acausality (type 5) and layers threads?

2 - Will this thread or a future one address the examples on the UES page? Because the examples listed on the pages are very important for guiding us more clearly, showing verses that actually meet the criteria and that we can rely on. And from what I can see in the discussion in this thread, it seems that half of the examples listed on the UES page are “wrong.” I think this is an issue that deserves more attention, since the examples on the pages are what regular users can rely on when they propose UES for the verse they support.

 

[KLOL506]

I’ve been given permission by @DarkDragonMedeus to ask a few questions.

1 - Will there be something like a reevaluation thread? Similar to the acausality (type 5) and layers threads?

No. Way too big. Verses will be handled individually.

2 - Will this thread or a future one address the examples on the UES page? Because the examples listed on the pages are very important for guiding us more clearly, showing verses that actually meet the criteria and that we can rely on. And from what I can see in the discussion in this thread, it seems that half of the examples listed on the UES page are “wrong.” I think this is an issue that deserves more attention, since the examples on the pages are what regular users can rely on when they propose UES for the verse they support.

Also no. Verse by verse, thread by thread.

 

[KLOL506]

Also @DarkDragonMedeus @KingTempest Can we just not mention verse names at all? Leave that out for their own individual threads. Let's just apply what's already been accepted.

 

[KLOL506]

Bump

Can we just edit in what's already been accepted? Any proposal for a new Energy System type should be in its own new thread, as should any discussion about which verses qualify for which energy system type.

 

[Antvasima]

What is the staff consensus here so far in summary?

 

[KingTempest]

idek

bump

 

[KLOL506]

What is the staff consensus here so far in summary?

Mostly to clarify the current criteria in an easy-to-understand format, because as it stands, the UES page making it out to be in paragraph format only makes it very confusing to read and look at.

 

[Planck69]

Bump

Can we just edit in what's already been accepted? Any proposal for a new Energy System type should be in its own new thread, as should any discussion about which verses qualify for which energy system type.

I mean, a new energy system type is directly relevant here. No point in editing in something that we would then immediately replace right afterwards.

 

[KLOL506]

I mean, a new energy system type is directly relevant here. No point in editing in something that we would then immediately replace right afterwards.

It'd just be slotting in the new energy type in between NPES and UES.

 

[Hagane_no_Saiyajin]

boop

 

[Antvasima]

What do we currently need to do here?

 

[KLOL506]

-snip-

Basically this, plus renaming the page to "Energy Systems" and adding a new Energy System Type called Physical Energy Systems where both physical and supernatural stuff are amped but it's not a 1:1 amp and the Supernaturals tend to be stronger.

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

Basically this, plus renaming the page to "Energy Systems" and adding a new Energy System Type called Physical Energy Systems where both physical and supernatural stuff are amped but it's not a 1:1 amp and the Supernaturals tend to be stronger.

Just a note, the "Energy Systems" name change was more or less agreed upon.

The "New Energy System" type being "Physical Energy Systems" has NOT been decided yet. But as for me, I disagree. The idea that "An energy system buffs physical and supernatural" powers stuff is within the realm of the energy system itself is still within the realm of being outright universal. Usually, if physical powers are part of the energy system but best known users are still limited to being a fraction of what supernatural techniques they pull off, I have explained countless times. That is more or less a contention of specific users having limited training, or energy efficiency to where they have not fully trained to harness the system into physical stats as opposed to the energy system itself not being universal.

We agreed to avoid delving into verse specifics in the thread, but I will point out that if we're going to propose a system between Non-Physical and Universal, we might as well break it up into 5 or 6 levels. If we're going to make a system between NPES and UES, we might as well also do one for between LES and NPES. And possibly even make one below LES. The one between LES and NPES can consist of examples of it amplifying some supernatural powers, but there are other supernatural powers (Like consisting of a different element) are the not as amped similar to physicals not being amped as much. And possibly the one that is even less than LES (Which an example could be there ultimate attack could be called Fireball times X, but other techniques that lack the "Times X" are downscaled). Which again, I strongly disagree with creating energy systems between our current 3 levels for said reasons because what we actually need are more expanded foot notes.

• Those foot notes being to remember the difference between a limitation of the energy system itself as opposed to situational limitations existing within any given verse; such as even if the ES itself is UES, there exist users limited to specific fighting styles.
• There are plenty of cases where despite all three characters using the exact same type of ES,
  • there is a character whose specific Supernatural techniques are multitudes stronger than their strongest melee attacks,
  • there are characters who use melee attacks as their ultimate attacks with strongest supernatural attacks actually being much weaker,
  • and characters who are pretty evenly split or 1:1 on both ends
• We shouldn't be ignoring examples when all three exist in the same verse, and use the same ES, but just have different fighting styles that limit uses
• Hence the limitations of certain users (Especially novices) shouldn't be mixed up with the limitations of a ES/UES itself.

If we do propose one between NPES and UES or by extension, between LES and NPES, and one below LES. Physical Energy system would be a terrible name for the first one. Physical Energy System sounds more like a name of a ES that exclusively buffs superhuman physical characteristics and not effecting any sort of supernatural stuff.

• Between UES and NPES sounds more like Semi-Universal is the best possible name I can think of (Which is coincidently my original name for NPES and LES before DontTalkDT broke them up)
• Between NPES and LES sounds would be called Semi-Nonphysical or something like that (Or something weird like that
• And below LES would be a even more limited form of LES (Which just sounds really dumb)

But anyway, I wouldn't mind the existence of something called Physical Energy System being an official one that is exclusive to buffing physical attacks and doesn't grant any sort of supernatural powers aside from maybe certain resistances. And it's considered less than UES, but it's more so different and not really above or below LES or NPES. But I disagree with squeezing any non 1:1's in between. It's either connected or not connected. The not quite 1:1 as I have stressed far too many times is a contention with users being limited and not the systems themselves.

 

[Antvasima]

Either way, this literally could've been solved weeks ago if we just laid down the already-accepted criteria for the into bullet-points:

Limited Energy System:

1. Prove that your energy system scales all attacks within a singular elemental system (Like say, all fire-based attacks) to the same power level (Insert fatigue vs casual BS)

2. Prove that proportional increase in energy usage results in all your attacks within that elemental system getting an equal proportional increase (Example: A power-up stating to multiply by 100x also increasing all of your fire attacks equally by 100x)

Non-Physical Energy System:

1. Prove that your energy system scales all supernatural attacks to the same power level (Insert fatigue vs casual BS) (As the name says, no physical strength being amped)

2. Prove that proportional increase in energy usage results in all your supernatural attacks an equal proportional increase (Example: A power-up stating to multiply by 100x also increasing all of your supernatural attacks equally by 100x)

UES:

1. Prove that your energy system can scale your physical punching/kicking strength to the same power level as your supernatural attacks (Insert fatigue vs casual BS)

2. Prove and show that you can channel said energy into your body parts to make them stronger.

3. Prove that a proportional increase in energy usage results in an equal proportional increase to all physical stats. (Example: A power-up stating to multiply by 100x also increasing physical strength, speed and durability by 100x)

4. Optional (DT wanted it to be that way when it was first made): Prove that a loss of the energy system results in the person being weakened severely or risking death outright (Connection with life-force and what-have-you)

Regarding Agnaa's concerns, I already addressed the fatigue thing being handled nicely by FinePoint and Planck, for the rest of his concerns, they seem to be more on the line of case-by-case basis stuff that shouldn't be ham-fisted into a one-size-fits-all rules, and I intend to stand by that strongly. We are already too needlessly strict with our standards as is, let's not make them impossible to achieve.

Also for the love of all that is holy, please don't ask me if your verse's certain scans qualify for these criteria, I am not the right man to be evaluating verse-related stuff, I already don't know enough of your verse as is. Don't discuss this here either. Make separate threads for 'em and let thread mods and admins and verse supporters shoot each other in a Wild West shootout over that.

Basically this, plus renaming the page to "Energy Systems" and adding a new Energy System Type called Physical Energy Systems where both physical and supernatural stuff are amped but it's not a 1:1 amp and the Supernaturals tend to be stronger.

Thank you for the information, and which staff members have agreed or disagreed with what here and why?

 

[KLOL506]

Everyone agrees to the name change.

I think everyone here (Planck, FinePoint, DDM, Damage and maybe Vietthai?) also agrees to clarifying the already-accepted requirements.

DDM brought up some other points regarding some verses but at large I do not think they are related to the already-accepted-and-used criteria at hand, basic scaling notwithstanding.

Only Agnaa seemed to have issues with regards to how we judge what counts as fatigue and casual but I think that's already handled well by our case-by-case basis judging criteria so that's not relevant, plus Planck and FinePoint's counterarguments against Agnaa IMHO address it perfectly.

Planck proposed a new energy system type in between NPES and UES to account for non-1:1 amps but it seems DDM disagrees. I personally think such an addition should be reserved for another thread but Planck doesn't seem to think so.

 

[Antvasima]

Thank you.

Can you summarise the actual changes that currently seem set to be applied here please?

 

[Planck69]

Thank you.

Can you summarise the actual changes that currently seem set to be applied here please?

Clarifying the current standards mostly, and organizing the page better.

As for the current discussion, a new energy system type is directly relevant here, unless we want to apply the thread only to immediately open another thread on the same topic. I'd rather we settle this all here and now.

 

[Antvasima]

Clarifying the current standards mostly, and organizing the page better.

Okay. That seems reasonable.

As for the current discussion, a new energy system type is directly relevant here, unless we want to apply the thread only to immediately open another thread on the same topic. I'd rather we settle this all here and now.

Okay. Can somebody elaborate please?

 

[Planck69]

Just a note, the "Energy Systems" name change was more or less agreed upon.

The "New Energy System" type being "Physical Energy Systems" has NOT been decided yet. But as for me, I disagree. The idea that "An energy system buffs physical and supernatural" powers stuff is within the realm of the energy system itself is still within the realm of being outright universal. Usually, if physical powers are part of the energy system but best known users are still limited to being a fraction of what supernatural techniques they pull off, I have explained countless times. That is more or less a contention of specific users having limited training, or energy efficiency to where they have not fully trained to harness the system into physical stats as opposed to the energy system itself not being universal.

We agreed to avoid delving into verse specifics in the thread, but I will point out that if we're going to propose a system between Non-Physical and Universal, we might as well break it up into 5 or 6 levels. If we're going to make a system between NPES and UES, we might as well also do one for between LES and NPES. And possibly even make one below LES. The one between LES and NPES can consist of examples of it amplifying some supernatural powers, but there are other supernatural powers (Like consisting of a different element) are the not as amped similar to physicals not being amped as much. And possibly the one that is even less than LES (Which an example could be there ultimate attack could be called Fireball times X, but other techniques that lack the "Times X" are downscaled). Which again, I strongly disagree with creating energy systems between our current 3 levels for said reasons because what we actually need are more expanded foot notes.

• Those foot notes being to remember the difference between a limitation of the energy system itself as opposed to situational limitations existing within any given verse; such as even if the ES itself is UES, there exist users limited to specific fighting styles.
• There are plenty of cases where despite all three characters using the exact same type of ES,
  • there is a character whose specific Supernatural techniques are multitudes stronger than their strongest melee attacks,
  • there are characters who use melee attacks as their ultimate attacks with strongest supernatural attacks actually being much weaker,
  • and characters who are pretty evenly split or 1:1 on both ends
• We shouldn't be ignoring examples when all three exist in the same verse, and use the same ES, but just have different fighting styles that limit uses
• Hence the limitations of certain users (Especially novices) shouldn't be mixed up with the limitations of a ES/UES itself.

If we do propose one between NPES and UES or by extension, between LES and NPES, and one below LES. Physical Energy system would be a terrible name for the first one. Physical Energy System sounds more like a name of a ES that exclusively buffs superhuman physical characteristics and not effecting any sort of supernatural stuff.

• Between UES and NPES sounds more like Semi-Universal is the best possible name I can think of (Which is coincidently my original name for NPES and LES before DontTalkDT broke them up)
• Between NPES and LES sounds would be called Semi-Nonphysical or something like that (Or something weird like that
• And below LES would be a even more limited form of LES (Which just sounds really dumb)

But anyway, I wouldn't mind the existence of something called Physical Energy System being an official one that is exclusive to buffing physical attacks and doesn't grant any sort of supernatural powers aside from maybe certain resistances. And it's considered less than UES, but it's more so different and not really above or below LES or NPES. But I disagree with squeezing any non 1:1's in between. It's either connected or not connected. The not quite 1:1 as I have stressed far too many times is a contention with users being limited and not the systems themselves.

Above is DarkDragonMedeus's most recent take on it.

My thoughts on it are quite simple in that the thread has pointed out very clearly that there are a lot of our current Universal Energy Systems that do not meet the requirement of true proportionality between their physicality and the amount of energy they can put into enhancing their physicality and the energy output of their supernatural abilities.

But they are a step above Non-Physical Energy Systems in that they do enhance the user's physicals to a certain degree. The "Physical Energy System" type (or whatever we end up calling it) is just a proposal to reconcile that because it is objectively true that a lot of our most famous examples of Universal Energy Systems don't actually satisfy the proportionality requirement for it.

 

[Antvasima]

Thank you for the information.

@DontTalkDT @Mr. Bambu @Agnaa @Qawsedf234 @GrathOfLux @LephyrTheRevanchist @SomebodyData @SamanPatou @Firestorm808

What do you think about this?

 

[Antvasima]

@FinePoint @Armorchompy

Your input would also be appreciated here.

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

Planck proposed a new energy system type in between NPES and UES to account for non-1:1 amps but it seems DDM disagrees. I personally think such an addition should be reserved for another thread but Planck doesn't seem to think so.

Just a minor note. That was KingTempest who proposed it, not Planck. Planck was more so trying to express open-mindedness and merely brought up how it could be relevant.

 

[Planck69]

Aye, that was KT.

 

[Vietthai96]

think everyone here

Aside from the name change, i'm mostly neutral

The addition of the new Physical Energy System or whatever the name is, probably should be in another thread