We need to talk about Universal Energy Systems

[Hellbeast]

God of War should have enough evidence to suggest to possess Universal Energy System in similar ways to Devil May Cry.

It probably does but that Blog just uses the old standards and needs edits to include the new requirements

Not sure about Assassin's Creed, since when it had any Universal Energy System?

For other verses who should had an Universal Energy System there is Saint Seiya with Cosmo, Sailor Moon with Crystals/Magic, Toriko with Appetite Energy, Hunter x Hunter with Nen, Fist of the North Star with Chi, Yu Yu Hakusho with Spirit Energy and many other Anime/Manga series.

And actually doesn't Marvel and DC possess multiple Universal Energy System? Or more like multiple Energy Systems that many characters (but not all) had access? Shouldn't we count them as well? Like the Emotional Spectrum for the Lanterns, the Power Cosmic for Heralds, the Speed Force for Speedsters, Quantum Field for characters like Captain Atom.

I'm curious about this; I know magic in the ArrowVerse and MCU likely wouldn't fit but I'm not familiar enough on the Power Cosmic (probably does tbh), Emotional Spectrum or other stuff
The Odin-Force probably does but I think we need blogs for those

 

[Stefano4444]

It probably does but that Blog just uses the old standards and needs edits to include the new requirements

Good to hear.

Anyway, considering how much important establish an Universal Energy System for evalute the character's strength, i also agree that we may need to make an actual guideline.

 

[Hellbeast]

Good to hear.

Not the Furies though that's just wank

Anyway, considering how much important establish an Universal Energy System for evalute the character's strength, i also agree that we may need to make an actual guideline.

What do you suggest?

 

[Stefano4444]

What do you suggest?

Just what i say, just make a blog where it explain what an Universal Energy System is and what criteria a verse need to meet for possess one.

Similar to how we had blogs for things like Powerscaling for Marvel and DC, Environmental Destruction and Calculations.

 

[Hellbeast]

That's what this is; the Doc is a proposed draft of such a page
The point of the thread is to iterate upon it and get opinions

 

[KLOL506]

Man all you guys have verses with intricate blogs for your universal energy sources while AC just keeps butchering its lore with useless one-liners and generic sci-fi energy wi-fi bullshit, no fair

 

[Hellbeast]

Man all you guys have verses with intricate blogs for your universal energy sources while AC just keeps butchering its lore with useless one-liners and generic sci-fi energy wi-fi bullshit, no fair

Hey you can give AC it's blog

 

[Tllmbrg]

Cheers
Also feel free to let me know which verses would fit easily by these guides (I assume DMC would and the DCEU's Old Gods MIGHT)

D&D most likely, at the very least everything it’s one of the most notable examples of universal power system

 

[Stefano4444]

The point of the thread is to iterate upon it and get opinions

I mean the criteria you had suggest looks good enough to me, i don't have much to add to be honest.

Although for One Piece, Haki would be a better example of Universal Energy System rather than Devil Fruits.

And for other examples of Universal Energy System, you can take a look here to see which one meet the criteria and add in your list of examples.

 

[Aetheric Pariah]

Yeah, DF's are just that, fruits that you can eat. Haki is energy within everyone

 

[Stefano4444]

For other examples for potential Universal Energy Systems, it also come to mind things like:
Ben 10 with Mana for Anodites and magic users.
Steven Universe with Gems's Powers for the Gems.
Danny Phantom with Ghost Energy for Ghosts.

 

[Hellbeast]

In that case are there any we know that wouldn't?

 

[KLOL506]

Hey you can give AC it's blog

It's just one or two lines bruh.

I do remember the definition of the energy lattice being larger and broader but I haven't played the game in months and can't be bothered to, it's a horrible game.

 

[Stefano4444]

In that case are there any we know that wouldn't?

Things like Quirks for MHA and Mutant Genes for X-Men/Marvel shouldn't be consider as UES, same with the Devil Fruits to be honest.

Not sure about Stands from Jojo thought, although now that i think about it Hamon definitely count as Universal Energy System.

 

[GilverTheProtoAngelo]

In that case are there any we know that wouldn't?

I was told Darksiders is such a game.

 

[KLOL506]

Things like Quirks for MHA and Mutant Genes for the X-Men/Marvel shouldn't be consider as UES, same with the Devil Fruits to be honest.

Not sure about Stands from Jojo thought, although now that i think about it Hamon definitely count as Universal Energy System.

Hamon definitely works as a UES.

 

[Tllmbrg]

I’ve been ignored, sad
(If it was because I gave no name to the UES, then it’s Weave for D&D)

 

[Hellbeast]

It's just one or two lines bruh.

Things like Quirks for MHA and Mutant Genes for X-Men/Marvel shouldn't be consider as UES, same with the Devil Fruits to be honest.

Makes sense

Not sure about Stands from Jojo thought, although now that i think about it Hamon definitely count as Universal Energy System.

Let the supporters say their bit

I was told Darksiders is such a game.

Eh not sure on that; I recall Death imbuing his strikes with flaming energy but Reaper may know better

I’ve been ignored, sad
(If it was because I gave no name to the UES, then it’s Weave for D&D)

Added; I would appreciate a blog compiling it though

 

[KLOL506]

IFKR

Imagine using 2-liners to explain how the Pieces of Eden work in the entire freaking verse, nice ******* job Ubisoft.

 

[Hellbeast]

IFKR

Imagine using 2-liners to explain how the Pieces of Eden work in the entire freaking verse, nice ******* job Ubisoft.

In that case you might need more for it to qualify. Also any blogs or threads proving the energy sources would be appreciated

 

[Stefano4444]

Also Final Fantasy 7's Lifestream/Mako count as EUS as well, and to be honest the same probably can be apply to Magic in general for most FF games.

Same with many other WRPG/JRPG like Legend of Zelda, The Elder Scrolls, Dragon Quest, Dragon Age, Kingdom Hearts and ect, although we may need further investigation to conferm that.

Mass Effect's Biotics may count as well, as Biotics's power source its the same one that ME's civilizations use to power up their technologies.

 

[Hellbeast]

Also Final Fantasy 7's Lifestream/Mako count as EUS as well, and to be honest the same probably can be apply to Magic in general for most FF games.

Same with many other WRPG/JRPG like Legend of Zelda, The Elder Scrolls, Dragon Quest, Dragon Age, Kingdom Hearts and ect, although they may need further analysis to conferm that.

Mass Effect's Biotics may count as well, as Biotics's power source its the same one that ME's civilizations use to power up their technologies.

I'm unsure of Biotics; the feats seem consistently much better for the Biotic powers then for the other stuff and that's not getting into the guidelines

I'd definitely like blogs for it and other stuff (Mostly just adding stuff that's been accepted already)

 

[GilverTheProtoAngelo]

Also Final Fantasy 7's Lifestream/Mako count as EUS as well, and to be honest the same probably can be apply to Magic in general for most FF games

Final Fantasy definitely does.

 

[GilverTheProtoAngelo]

I'm unsure of Biotics; the feats seem consistently much better for the Biotic powers then for the other stuff and that's not getting into the guidelines

I'd definitely like blogs for it and other stuff (Mostly just adding stuff that's been accepted already)

https://vsbattles.com/threads/final-fantasy-7-fix-part-3-hax-and-the-power-of-the-lifestream.120329/post-3939913

I know this is a hax thread, but I think it gets the point accross.
Especially with life stream.

 

[KLOL506]

In that case you might need more for it to qualify. Also any blogs or threads proving the energy sources would be appreciated

It is from Layla's Staff of Hermes file in Valhalla, and the Staff is a pretty important plot-point. The sites Access the Animus and The Codex (Both being verified to be legitimate AC lore hubs by Ubisoft) also suggest the same based on the evidence they found in the game.

AC Revelations called it the Becker-Hagens grid, which connected all the Isu Temples as one. Seems to be quotes about this network within other games as well but that's it. Can't make a blog outta that.

 

[Hellbeast]

It is from Layla's Staff of Hermes file in Valhalla, and the Staff is a pretty important plot-point. The sites Access the Animus and The Codex (Both being verified to be legitimate AC lore hubs by Ubisoft) also suggest the same based on the evidence they found in the game.

AC Revelations called it the Becker-Hagens grid, which connected all the Isu Temples as one. Seems to be quotes about this network within other games as well but that's it. Can't make a blog outta that.

I meant more the idea it fits the criteria

 

[GilverTheProtoAngelo]

It is from Layla's Staff of Hermes file in Valhalla, and the Staff is a pretty important plot-point. The sites Access the Animus and The Codex (Both being verified to be legitimate AC lore hubs by Ubisoft) also suggest the same based on the evidence they found in the game.

AC Revelations called it the Becker-Hagens grid, which connected all the Isu Temples as one. Seems to be quotes about this network within other games as well but that's it. Can't make a blog outta that.

Make one anyways....be fun to see 2 liner blogs.

 

[KLOL506]

I meant more the idea it fits the criteria

Well for one it fits two criteria already:

1. Users need to explicitly draw from singular sources for their myriad of abilities (Wireless Energy Lattice, even trademarked as the ISU'S Wireless Energy Lattice)

2. Needs to explicitly be a common source of power within the verse (Layla's file outright states this- "It has been used as a weapon, infrequently, possibly by taking advantage of the tremendous power it draws from the Isu's Wireless Energy Lattice.", which tells me the Staff wasn't exactly designed for combat in mind but could do the task just as well as most other offense-based Pieces of Eden)

3 (Possibly?). Direct correlation needs to be established between the universal system and outright power or potential capabilities (The above statement works for this too, since, well, the Staff is used as a weapon offensively as AC Odyssey has shown us)

Not sure if this portion qualifies for any criteria but the Staves of Eden, Swords of Eden and the Precursor Boxes have been shown multiple times to considerably increase one's physical might and even give them insane charismatic abilities. And sometimes permanently at that.

 

[Stefano4444]

Asura's Wrath's Mantra, Guilty Gear's Magic, Gurren Lagann's Spiral Energy, Half-Life's Vortessence, Starcraft's Psionic Powers, RWBY's Aura, Transformers's Energon and Warhammer's Psychic Powers should be UES as well.

Marvel's Gamma Radiation for Gamma Mutants like Hulk and Photonucleic Effect for Kryptonians like Superman may too count, but i'm not completely sure.

 

[KLOL506]

Make one anyways....be fun to see 2 liner blogs.

**** YOU V, I've done did it. Here.

I'll post it on the wiki once this thread goes through.

 

[Axxtentacle]

Currently this is treated as an existing requirement and since it's already so widely used on the Wiki I felt it a decent choice to roll that into the proposed stuff. The empowerment would just be an extension of the idea you can amp your physical strikes (Can remove it though if needed)

I actually tried using Empowerment for proving being able to amp physicals in the DOOM upgrade thread that made them tier 2, and it was dimissed for just being empowerment. So i'd say this part should be removed via precedent, unless there's an overwhelming vote towards it being a valid criteria.

Edit: I assume the logic here is "If you can amp a sword, you should be able to amp your fists", right? If so, i'd be ok with it.

The reason I bring this up is it implies gaining that mystical energy is able to radiate out into the rest of their body ala Deathstroke with the Godkiller or Kratos feeling that way in the God of War novels after getting new powers. It's definitely specific but it helps to show that it's a wider bodily enhancement and not just separate from physicals

This should be like the "binding of the universe" criteria in the way it's treated if it's being kept.

This is my point; it's not a downside but it's a W if included (I'm tempted to just make this a sub type of the common source of power point)

All good on that, then.

Again this is more to counter cases where powers are derived solely from artefacts

Yeah that kinda makes sense, now you mention it

Hmm fair point

This is more saying if there isn't a universal energy system they'd just be Environmental Destruction if that makes sense

, though I would suggest rewording it some. When I read this it sounded like any feat that could just be ED is invalidated even if there's a UES.

Agreed

No because they had a huge loss in personal power and can't replicate the same feats, the point is more if someone has Tier 7 feats, loses access to say magic and yet can still do pretty outright Tier 7 stuff; hence my use of "the same feats"

Cheers

Yeah I might need to reword that section

Yeah my point was more if it doesn't fit a universal energy system it'd just be ED

to all of the above.

 

[Axxtentacle]

Also KLOL when I said earthquake feats, I said it because it's generally an ED thing we scale because we see it happen, but if we don't see it happen and just know X character did it somehow, that part sounded like it would just disqualify it for being an ED feat.

 

[KLOL506]

Also KLOL when I said earthquake feats, I said it because it's generally an ED thing we scale because we see it happen, but if we don't see it happen and just know X character did it somehow, that part sounded like it would just disqualify it for being an ED feat.

Oh, alright then. Carry on.

 

[Theglassman12]

Read through the doc. The proposals look good, though I do wanna recommend one thing. For the verses that flat out qualify for the UES, if there are any blogs that these verses have that explain in detail how it scales to physical strength I’d recommend using those in the examples of those that qualify, just so that newcomers would get a better understanding on how say… Chakra and Demonic Energy scales Naruto and DMC respectively despite some visual inconsistencies with power.

 

[Mr. Bambu]

I don't think I agree with the criteria used. Some of it seems rather... arbitrary.

With that said I absolutely agree that a standards page should exist for this concept. I just don't like that, for example, to qualify you must have some form of power that must be "common" within the verse.

 

[KLOL506]

I don't think I agree with the criteria used. Some of it seems rather... arbitrary.

With that said I absolutely agree that a standards page should exist for this concept. I just don't like that, for example, to qualify you must have some form of power that must be "common" within the verse.

Well I think it's a plus, but like Hellbeast said, you don't need to qualify for every single criteria to prove that the UES can be used for that specific verse.

Empowering their punches with said UES should be a must tho, that's the baseline for a UES, being able to amplify your physicals with an energy source. Anything else is just supporting evidence honestly.

 

[Mr. Bambu]

I don't agree with that. "Empowering punches" is a wee bit arbitrary. Now, I agree durability should be linked, but "empowering punches" just sounds like such an arbitrary expectation or method of outputting damage via your UES.

 

[Lightning_XXI]

This is a a long time coming, after we made some revisions on scaling creation and storms to physicals, a page for Universal Energy System is very, very welcome to avoid some headache. It looks great, and well, I already gave my suggestion on PM

Read through the doc. The proposals look good, though I do wanna recommend one thing. For the verses that flat out qualify for the UES, if there are any blogs that these verses have that explain in detail how it scales to physical strength I’d recommend using those in the examples of those that qualify, just so that newcomers would get a better understanding on how say… Chakra and Demonic Energy scales Naruto and DMC respectively despite some visual inconsistencies with power.

I also agree with this, if, of course, these "already done" EUS verses will qualify to the standards

 

[KLOL506]

I don't agree with that. "Empowering punches" is a wee bit arbitrary. Now, I agree durability should be linked, but "empowering punches" just sounds like such an arbitrary expectation or method of outputting damage via your UES.

Well, how would you word it? We're open to improvements.

Would something like "empowering their physical strength" work better?

What else do you have issues with?

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

Just a heads up, I think this thread she be focused on the concept at hand for universal energy systems rather than individual types of feats being scaled to physical stats; temperature feats, creation feats, ect. Each of those either already had their own threads or are going to have their own threads eventually. Topic at hand is just idea on universal energy sources or what qualifies as "Universal energy source".

But I think one of the most examples of what qualifies as "Universal energy source" is a verse or character's portrayal basically treating each and every power and ability, or at least most of them, as a subpower of a much more universal. Examples include, Chi Manipulation, Energy Manipulation, Magic, Data Manipulation. Verses like Digimon and Megaman (Which Samus Aran from Metroid also falls into this category as well) have something where all elemental and supernatural powers as well as superhuman physical characteristics are treated as a subpower of universal digital data. Which is basically what their version of Ki/Chakra Control and what not is.

And I think it has more to do with how balanced and universal an energy source is than it does the substance or internal vs external status. I know a common example is magic, which magic is admittedly more controversial than Ki or Chakra and has cases of where it can be just as universal, or cases where it's not universal. And a multitude of where in between.

• There are examples where each and every spell comes from a very specific artifact, and the potency doesn't change just because the caster is stronger, or more skilled at harnessing powers. Those are examples of them not being universal.
• There are examples for the pool of mana being everything magic; they are usually universal unless their best feats come from their absolute strongest spells that basically wipe the casters out after one use. And may not scale to physicals outside of other feats, but it would almost at least scale to everything except for physical stats.
• There are those same with previous two, but also consistently trade blows. And some attacks do have physical properties, so it scales to durability but not striking strength. Same with 1st bullet point with the exception of magic tomes being amped by potency of the caster who carries most of the weight.
• But then of course, there are examples where they use the same pool of mana to amp physical stats. And physical stat amps can be more advanced or stated to use comparable if not more power than individual spells. Those are basically Ki/Chakra control parallel examples and would thus scale universally.