Universal Energy Systems

[Promestein]

What's up with this being ineligible for being a universal energy system? What does that mean? How do we treat a universal energy system and how do we treat a non-universal energy system?

• Users need to have the capacity to use their powers to directly channel their power through physical objects in a way that quantifiably enhances them such as:

I disagree, this is hyperspecific, a setting can have a universal energy system without necessitating its manifestation physically in such a manner. Seriously, what's the point of this? What does this matter? Is this entirely about scaling physicals to supernatural feats? That's entirely a case-by-case basis, not something we make a universal ruling on.

 

[KLOL506]

On the item thing, I thought about it and I guess I could see it. The example I was thinking about is Ronan from the MCU, who has effectively a UES with the power stone in terms of functionality. He could 100% be an example for that.

I mean, without the Power Stone, he's reduced to his 8-A self. With the Power Stone, yes, he definitely possesses an entirely new Tier all round and has shown the basis to be able to do so.

I think the entire thing came from people taking "Universal Energy System" and thinking it had to be widely (or universally) used to qualify. Which is something I very, very strongly disagree with, as when I came up with the term and people started using it, "Universal" was meant to say that it's an energy that they use for everything they do. They use this energy universally for their abilities. Personally, i'd like that to not be a very big thing. Not a requirement by any means.

I mean, that's why the note exists. To ensure that the character using one singular energy form or one common energy form (Like say, their own stamina or a massive energy pool) for all their everyday works, scale to their physical strength.

 

[KLOL506]

What's up with this being ineligible for being a universal energy system? What does that mean?

Basically figuring out whether your power source abilities scale to your body's physical strength.

How do we treat a universal energy system and how do we treat a non-universal energy system?

We tried going that route, turns out, there's not much that separates them in terms of functionality until actually shown in their respective verses.

I disagree, this is hyperspecific, a setting can have a universal energy system without necessitating its manifestation physically in such a manner. Seriously, what's the point of this? What does this matter? Is this entirely about scaling physicals to supernatural feats? That's entirely a case-by-case basis, not something we make a universal ruling on.

That's... not a mandatory criteria tho? It's supplementary, says so on the draft. The mere fact that they can amp their physicals with UES is an automatic default assumption that doesn't require any proof, at this point amping your weapons/other physical objects is just supporting evidence.

 

[Promestein]

The mere fact that they can amp their physicals with UES is an automatic default assumption that doesn't require any proof

I disagree with this one! Why are we making these assumptions? What's the point of this ruling system, seriously? It should all be case-by-case.

 

[KLOL506]

I disagree with this one! Why are we making these assumptions? What's the point of this ruling system, seriously? It should all be case-by-case.

Whaddya mean? We've always worked with the criteria that a main selling point of a UES can be used to amp one's physicals with said energy source before the need for a page came up, why not just make it concrete now?

 

[Promestein]

Because I disagree with having to codify it at all. Judge it case-by-case. It shouldn't be an assumption and it shouldn't be a matter of checking off boxes. It should be a matter of being able to argue it based on the canon material; what makes sense, what clicks, what advances that interpretation. Assigning outside rules to something that will have its own rules established by the narrative, not a good idea I think.

I also think UES is a terrible name, extremely misleading.

 

[GilverTheProtoAngelo]

From what I can see here, one would have to prove first that the Character stored their power in said weapon, which I feel is a tad bit specific, but IDK, Hellbeast

GoW has plenty examples of this, foremost being Blade of Olympus for both Zeus and Kratos.
But another example is completely new energy source ....... for example we discussed this on last thread iirc in context DSS used by Sanctus/Arkham.
Where they are able to use limited portion of DSS's for empowering themselves, without which they'd be fodder.

So maybe we can reword it to this:-

As long as character shows feats in proportion with certain amount energy used out of an external source like magical weapon/artefact, the feat will be attributed mainly for weapon, but can be considered UES for Character+Weapon pair. Power Scaling aspects should also be considered as make or break factors.

"Magical weapons granting the use of mystical attacks the user cannot otherwise replicate."

Hmmm...
I wouldn't call this disqualifying criteria.
Since characters use weapons mainly because they may have extra abilities Characters do not possess.

This will be true even in UES case, for example(DMC) Dante using Cerberus for ice attacks which he can't do normally, even though the Devil Arm and Character both use DE. We can't say that above criteria should be disqualifier.

I feel it does more harm then good.

 

[Antoniofer]

Promestein get's it, of how broad fiction is, ruling how generic energy systems in verses are supposed to work is pointless.

 

[KLOL506]

Because I disagree with having to codify it at all. Judge it case-by-case. It shouldn't be an assumption and it shouldn't be a matter of checking off boxes. It should be a matter of being able to argue it based on the canon material; what makes sense, what clicks, what advances that interpretation. Assigning outside rules to something that will have its own rules established by the narrative, not a good idea I think.

By that logic literally anyone could bring up a energy system to qualify under poorly-explained variants of said guidelines. I disagree.

I also think UES is a terrible name, extremely misleading.

No comment.

 

[KLOL506]

Promestein get's it, of how broad fiction is, ruling how generic energy systems in verses are supposed to work is pointless.

Once again, I disagree, by your logic literally anyone could get physicals to scale to other forms of attacks just by the "hurr durr they can amp themselves with said energy" while ignoring all the context behind said feats.

 

[Promestein]

By that logic literally anyone could bring up a energy system to qualify under poorly-explained variants of said guidelines. I disagree.

Anyone can misrepresent anything, that's not an argument.

Once again, I disagree, by your logic literally anyone could get physicals to scale to other forms of attacks just by the "hurr durr they can amp themselves with said energy" while ignoring all the context behind said feats.

You don't understand a thing I'm saying. I'm saying that you have to be able to prove it with the canon material, rather than it being an assumption as you yourself said.

Seriously, what?

 

[GilverTheProtoAngelo]

Because I disagree with having to codify it at all. Judge it case-by-case. It shouldn't be an assumption and it shouldn't be a matter of checking off boxes. It should be a matter of being able to argue it based on the canon material; what makes sense, what clicks, what advances that interpretation. Assigning outside rules to something that will have its own rules established by the narrative, not a good idea I think

I mean aren't you defeating the purpose of identifying UES based on guidelines?

Main property of energy for qualifying is it can amplify user's strength, and it being source of almost all feats.
Without such a fundamental property, whats the point to UES?

I also think UES is a terrible name, extremely misleading.

Any alternatives?

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

I can see where Prom is coming from, but there are still a lot of people who simply do not know what UES are, and rule or not, information and list of guidelines that explain details and different examples and the list of pointers and blue prints is still something that's a lot more helpful than not having one. And DontTalkDT also has had a lot more to add regarding that. There are a lot of verses that have lore and each verse having different names for it, but the general idea is basically the same prominence in various Shounen verses and RPG franchises especially. And a lot of it is actually derived from Eastern philosophies about Chi/Energy. Which was actually where scientists even got the study of what energy is to begin with; including kinetic energy and potential energy and what not.

 

[KLOL506]

You don't understand a thing I'm saying. I'm saying that you have to be able to prove it with the canon material, rather than it being an assumption as you yourself said.

That's what... an UES does by default? It exists so that people can tap into said energy source to do stuff.

Seriously, what?

Read my above reply.

 

[Promestein]

Nothing you said changes my mind, DDM. None of it qualifies as a point. This is explainable with like, one rule; you can't assume that someone's supernatural abilities scale to them physically, you have to be able to prove it with scans and shit. Except that's like, the fundamental basis of argument on this wiki, so why do we need rules on it? Seriously, we don't need rules for everything; the more rules and systems we add to this wiki, the harder it gets for people to navigate them all without getting choked up in all the bureaucratic nonsense. If someone makes a good case, that's what matters, not how many arbitrary boxes it checks off.

That's what... an UES does by default? It exists so that people can tap into said energy source to do stuff.

I really am not a fan of just talking about this made-up term as if it means anything in any broad sense, but okay, sure, I know that. I know what it means. I just disagree with codifying it on the wiki with this set of rules, rather than just leaving it up to basic argumentation and logic, which is more navigatable.

 

[KLOL506]

GoW has plenty examples of this, foremost being Blade of Olympus for both Zeus and Kratos.
But another example is completely new energy source ....... for example we discussed this on last thread iirc in context DSS used by Sanctus/Arkham.
Where they are able to use limited portion of DSS's for empowering themselves, without which they'd be fodder.

So maybe we can reword it to this:-

As long as the character shows feats in proportion with a certain amount energy used out of an external source like magical weapon/artefact, the feat will be attributed mainly for weapon, but can be considered UES for Character+Weapon pair. Power Scaling aspects should also be considered as make or break factors.

Looks good. Though I think the grammar could be touched up a bit better.

Hmmm...
I wouldn't call this disqualifying criteria.
Since characters use weapons mainly because they may have extra abilities Characters do not possess.

This will be true even in UES case, for example(DMC) Dante using Cerberus for ice attacks which he can't do normally, even though the Devil Arm and Character both use DE. We can't say that above criteria should be disqualifier.

I feel it does more harm then good.

I mean, we could just add the same exception line for this like we did for Totems, so...

 

[RatherClueless]

"Scaling a person's unique individual supernatural power (Like a genetic mutation for example) connected to their own internal energy source (Like their stamina, for example), to their physical strength is a case-by-case basis. If the character qualifies the above criteria used to determine the validity of scaling UES-based feats to one physicals, it can be safely assumed that the character's unique abilities scale to his own physical strength as well. If not, it would be safer to assume that the person's abilities scale above their physical strength unless proven otherwise via power scaling"

Mb, I completely missed the notes section. However, there is something I wanna say about that too though. It doesn't have to be some superpower. It is completely possible that only one character can use magic within a verse. This note makes it sound as if all scenarios in which there is only one character that can use a certain power couldn't possibly be an energy system like any other, but some unique quirk of sorts.

Because said inner energy source's capabilities and inner workings also generally function as a fundamental aspect of said verse's lore, I guess?

Alright, but why is it a necessity? I can see it being supporting, but why mandatory?

This part I have some qualms with. What is that energy being forged out of? Is it the character's own internal power source (Like say, stamina and/or UES like Chakra, Ki, whatever)?

Naruto for example has his own chakra, kurama's chakra and can use chakra from the surroundings. These are different sources (even if it is the same energy), making it technically go against the criteria.

From what I can see here, one would have to prove first that the Character stored their power in said weapon, which I feel is a tad bit specific

This was just an example. I mean, just think of something like magical girls who are useless without their wand, but with it you can't tell them apart from any other magic user from verses with UES

I also have a question. Lets say you have a verse with a UES. Within this verse attacks become more potent as their rank increases (basic magic vs legendary magic or sth like that). So you can have a basic fire ball cosume X Mana and do Y damage, while explosion magic might consume 10X Mana and does 100Y damage. Now lets assume we have a mage within this verse that knows 100 different spells, all having varying feats, depending on the spells used. This mage now also possesses a physical enhancement spell (rank of the spell isnt known). To what would we scale it? The lowest or highest feat? Would we scale it at all?

Is this entirely about scaling physicals to supernatural feats? That's entirely a case-by-case basis, not something we make a universal ruling on.

People have been doing this for a long time now and I am no fan of it either, but that just seems to be what the majority of the wiki wants ¯\(ツ)/¯

 

[GilverTheProtoAngelo]

I really am not a fan of just talking about this made-up term as if it means anything in any broad sense, but okay, sure, I know that. I know what it means. I just disagree with codifying it on the wiki with this set of rules, rather than just leaving it up to basic argumentation and logic, which is more navigatable

These are not be all and end all rules, but merely guidelines.

People need some clue on how they can prove energy in their verse scales to physicals. This guidelines helps us in that.

 

[KLOL506]

Nothing you said changes my mind, DDM. None of it qualifies as a point. This is explainable with like, one rule; you can't assume that someone's supernatural abilities scale to them physically, you have to be able to prove it with scans and shit.

And you're saying that the existence of a Universal Power Source like chakra, ki, reiatsu, etc. isn't proof? Sorry man, but that's just pushing it.

Except that's like, the fundamental basis of argument on this wiki, so why do we need rules on it? Seriously, we don't need rules for everything; the more rules and systems we add to this wiki, the harder it gets for people to navigate them all without getting choked up in all the bureaucratic nonsense. If someone makes a good case, that's what matters, not how many arbitrary boxes it checks off.

I really don't see how a page explaining how to prove said claims is arbitrary or makes stuff harder for people to navigate through all this "bureaucratic nonsense" you speak of.

 

[Promestein]

I don't see what needs to be explained, it's extremely simple, but whatever.

 

[Antoniofer]

Once again, I disagree, by your logic literally anyone could get physicals to scale to other forms of attacks just by the "hurr durr they can amp themselves with said energy" while ignoring all the context behind said feats.

Kind of my point: you don't do it, even if its n UES or whatever, if you want to scale suoernatural to physicals, or vice verse, just use official proof, case-by-case as people call it, no need to create a rule form it.

 

[Paul_Frank]

I have to agree with Prom here, how do you make a guideline for whether an in universe energy system counts as a universal one, rather than just going off what the series explicitly says or explains

The issue with making guidelines for something like this is that energy systems can vary so widely in different verses, that even if two systems are explicitly universal in the verse, one might meet the criteria and the other doesn't, and under this system, we'd then declare one not an energy system based on arbitrary conditions we made to try and classify something that is entirely verse context dependent

 

[RatherClueless]

Kind of glad to see that there are people that actually agree with the point I made in the original thread.

"Dont just use a standard to circumvent bringing up evidence. If it scales, there must be in verse proof. If there isn't, it doesn't scale."

I doubt that'll change anything tho, so instead I shall simply try my best to make the standards as good as can be.

 

[KLOL506]

Mb, I completely missed the notes section. However, there is something I wanna say about that too though. It doesn't have to be some superpower. It is completely possible that only one character can use magic within a verse. This note makes it sound as if all scenarios in which there is only one character that can use a certain power couldn't possibly be an energy system like any other, but some unique quirk of sorts.

Sure, why the heck not.

Alright, but why is it a necessity? I can see it being supporting, but why mandatory?

Most likely to do with how a UES is usually shown to connect with several metaphysical and natural elements within said verse.

Naruto for example has his own chakra, kurama's chakra and can use chakra from the surroundings. These are different sources (even if it is the same energy), making it technically go against the criteria.

It's all chakra tho, it's not some other energy source going by a different name. Basically speaking, senjutsu chakra, the one that Naruto absorbs from his surroundings, is still chakra, just more potent. Mechanics are the exact same as the normal chakra. Don't tell me you're gonna make 'em disqualify just because they absorb the same type of energy from different sources.

This was just an example. I mean, just think of something like magical girls who are useless without their wand, but with it you can't tell them apart from any other magic user from verses with UES

Then their magic wand amped state is a separate key from their normal base physical un-amped key, assuming their normal base un-amped key is shown to be physically weaker.

I also have a question. Lets say you have a verse with a UES. Within this verse attacks become more potent as their rank increases (basic magic vs legendary magic or sth like that). So you can have a basic fire ball cosume X Mana and do Y damage, while explosion magic might consume 10X Mana and does 100Y damage. Now lets assume we have a mage within this verse that knows 100 different spells, all having varying feats, depending on the spells used. This mage now also possesses a physical enhancement spell (rank of the spell isnt known). To what would we scale it? The lowest or highest feat? Would we scale it at all?


People have been doing this for a long time now and I am no fan of it either, but that just seems to be what the majority of the wiki wants ¯\(ツ)/¯

Depends on the exhaustion level. I can see it being a similar case to Dragon Ball, where characters unleash their most powerful attacks (Kamehameha) to blow up planets, but their normal base attacks are still around the same power level

 

[Promestein]

And you're saying that the existence of a Universal Power Source like chakra, ki, reiatsu, etc. isn't proof? Sorry man, but that's just pushing it.

All of these are blatantly associated with superhuman physicals. They don't scale to physicals because they meet some arbitrary standards you establish, they scale to physicals because the story made it clear that they scale to physicals.

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

That's literally what UES is, the ability to harness either an internal pool of energy or borrow from an outside pool of energy that is spread throughout the cosmology to perform their feats weather it be supernatural abilities, control the elements, shoot energy blasts, or amplify their own physical characteristics. Yes, it's already covered that some have less flexible versions and others have more. And there does need evidence that physical stats are correlated to their energy manipulation and what not. That's already covered in the guidelines which includes consistent feats, lore statements, powerscaling, ect. There's a limit to how much redundancy needs to be asked and what not. It doesn't need to be that complex, if someone can utilize a mystical energy source to cause a big bang that creates the universe, and is equally capable of harnessing that energy into a single punch, it scales. And it also goes that some verses also do have explanations that a character is just as capable of amplifying their physical strength correlated to their energy displacement feats in general.

Again, these aren't uber strict rules, this isn't rocket science. These are just common standards that apply to a vast majority of verses. Of course, some verses are more down to earth with a lack of supernatural powers and heavily dependent on modern technologies for any powers. But there's too many verses that are in our faces that all forms of energy or even the ability to simply cancel out energy are correlated to translate in all directions to the point where arguing against it is the equivalent of attempting to argue that "2 + 2 =/= 4".

Not to mention, some verses don't call it Ki or Chakra, but something else. There are verses were Digital Data, "The Force" or even just a generic Magic name are used instead but follow all of the same general premises of Ki or Chakra. It's less about the name and more about the executive concept and consistency of each verse.

 

[KLOL506]

All of these are blatantly associated with superhuman physicals. They don't scale to physicals because they meet some arbitrary standards you establish, they scale to physicals because the story made it clear that they scale to physicals.

And them saying it scales to physicals is not part of lore?

 

[Promestein]

It is part of the lore. It's part of the text, which you can go ahead and use as proof in an argument to prove that they do, in fact, scale to physicals, rather than going down someone else's arbitrary checklist.

 

[KLOL506]

That's literally what UES is, the ability to harness either an internal pool of energy or borrow from an outside pool of energy that is spread throughout the cosmology to perform their feats weather it be supernatural abilities, control the elements, shoot energy blasts, or amplify their own physical characteristics. Yes, it's already covered that some have less flexible versions and others have more. And there does need evidence that physical stats are correlated to their energy manipulation and what not. That's already covered in the guidelines which includes consistent feats, lore statements, powerscaling, ect. There's a limit to how much redundancy needs to be asked and what not. It doesn't need to be that complex, if someone can utilize a mystical energy source to cause a big bang that creates the universe, and is equally capable of harnessing that energy into a single punch, it scales. And it also goes that some verses also do have explanations that a character is just as capable of amplifying their physical strength correlated to their energy displacement feats in general.

Again, these aren't uber strict rules, this isn't rocket science. These are just common standards that apply to a vast majority of verses. Of course, some verses are more down to earth with a lack of supernatural powers and heavily dependent on modern technologies for any powers. But there's too many verses that are in our faces that all forms of energy or even the ability to simply cancel out energy are correlated to translate in all directions to the point where arguing against it is the equivalent of attempting to argue that "2 + 2 =/= 4".

Hard agree with this, I honestly don't see how majority of UESes vary from each other in terms of their main purpose of functionality and existence. I would like to know how they vary exactly.

How would using a singular, common energy source for everything you do make your UES different from any of the other UES out there?

How would being severely weakened from loss of said energy source differ from majority of UES that doesn't involve heavy power-scaling?

How would direct correlation between the universal power source and outright power level/potential capabilities being confirmed by the text be any different from the rest of the UESes that operate in this exact manner?

 

[KLOL506]

It is part of the lore. It's part of the text, which you can go ahead and use as proof in an argument to prove that they do, in fact, scale to physicals, rather than going down someone else's arbitrary checklist.

That's literally what we based the damn checklist off of? If it's part of the text and part of the lore, it automatically qualifies one part of that checklist (That being "core underpinning").

 

[RatherClueless]

Most likely to do with how a UES is usually shown to connect with several metaphysical and natural elements within said verse.

wdym "most likely"? You dont know why it's mandatory either? lol

It's all chakra tho, it's not some other energy source going by a different name. Basically speaking, senjutsu chakra, the one that Naruto absorbs from his surroundings, is still chakra, just more potent. Mechanics are the exact same as the normal chakra. Don't tell me you're gonna make 'em disqualify just because they absorb the same type of energy from different sources.

You are missing the point. It is the same energy but not the same source of the energy. It's a nitpicky wording issue.

Then their magic wand amped state is a separate key from their normal base physical un-amped key, assuming their normal base un-amped key is shown to be physically weaker.

isn't that the case for every character that doesn't have this passively? If a mage needs to cast an enhancement spell, that should be separated too (even if not necessarily into two keys)

Depends on the exhaustion level. I can see it being a similar case to Dragon Ball, where characters unleash their most powerful attacks (Kamehameha) to blow up planets, but their normal base attacks are still around the same power level

I guess that might work?

 

[GilverTheProtoAngelo]

isn't that the case for every character that doesn't have this passively? If a mage needs to cast an enhancement spell, that should be separated too (even if not necessarily into two keys)

I gave an alternative.

As long as character shows feats in proportion with certain amount energy used out of an external source like magical weapon/artefact, the feat will be attributed mainly for weapon, but can be considered UES for Character+Weapon pair. Power Scaling aspects should also be considered as make or break factors.

 

[KLOL506]

wdym "most likely"? You dont know why it's mandatory either? lol

I thought that was the reason why it would be needed to be mandatory.

You are missing the point. It is the same energy but not the same source of the energy. It's a nitpicky wording issue.

Maybe we could work on it better adding about energy not coming from same sources but sharing the same properties and mechanics and being the same type of energy would still qualify. I was actually about to bring up a potential new criteria based on verses where where certain weapons and technology are built having different functions but they share the same energy source and said functions share the same properties and physical aesthetics.

isn't that the case for every character that doesn't have this passively? If a mage needs to cast an enhancement spell, that should be separated too (even if not necessarily into two keys)

Gilver gave an alternative regarding this I think, when he explained in the previous thread that not every UES is passive and that some are active.

 

[RatherClueless]

I gave an alternative.

That seems fine

 

[Ogbunabali]

I agree in general with a page for this, but I have some things to point out.

The meta stuff there about mentioning battleboarding, and whatnot, needs to be removed. We don't really do that with any other explanation page. The summary should just stick to explaining what the term means.

Users need to explicitly draw from singular sources for their myriad of abilities

I disagree with this. We don't care whether all of their abilities or not use a single source, just whether the ones that are used to scale to each other do. It's way too specific to be a "mandatory" rule and should be rewritten to just say that only the abilities that use the same source would scale to each other.

Needs to explicitly be a common source of power within the verse

Similarly to the above, it's needlessly specific. We don't necessarily care whether everyone uses the same source or not to qualify whether they'd have a shared energy system. Rather we only care that the ones that scale do.

Meaning, even if three people have an energy system between them, they'd still qualify for a "shared energy system" from which you can scale stuff from.

The energy source must have a core underpinning to the verse’s metaphysical or natural elements and/or must be tightly integrated into the verse’s lore, as this would certainly be a helpful piece of evidence (such as the Force “binding the universe together” and being tied to all life)

This is completely arbitrary and the energy source can be whatever.


Honestly, the page should be also rewritten to portray general guidelines and not hardcore set in stone "mandatory" rules.

 

[GilverTheProtoAngelo]

Gilver gave an alternative regarding this I think, when he explained in the previous thread that not every UES is passive and that some are active.

Maybe we should mention it on page too.
Since either way it does not disqualify any system, but it can cause confusion or misunderstanding. So we clarify on page that such cases do exist, but they are not a problem.

 

[KLOL506]

I agree in general with a page for this, but I have some things to point out.

The meta stuff there about mentioning battleboarding, and whatnot, needs to be removed. We don't really do that with any other explanation page. The summary should just stick to explaining what the term means.

Wording issues I guess. Easy fix.

I disagree with this. We don't care whether all of their abilities or not use a single source, just whether the ones that are used to scale to each other do. It's way too specific to be a "mandatory" rule and should be rewritten to just say that only the abilities that use the same source would scale to each other.

So, basically just make it a supplementary requirement instead of mandatory?

Similarly to the above, it's needlessly specific. We don't necessarily care whether everyone uses the same source or not to qualify whether they'd have a shared energy system. Rather we only care that the ones that scale do.

Same thing as above then.

Meaning, even if three people have an energy system between them, they'd still qualify for a "shared energy system" from which you can scale stuff from.

Obviously they'd qualify here, I got no questions with that.

This is completely arbitrary and the energy source can be whatever.

Guess this goes to the supplementary section then. I still disagree with removing this a criteria though.

Honestly, the page should be also rewritten to portray general guidelines and not hardcore set in stone "mandatory" rules.

The mandatory guidelines was more so of a response towards Agnaa wanting stricter qualifications on what qualifies and doesn't qualify as a UES. Not that I don't agree with making the standards a little bit tight for easier identification of said energy sources but at the same time I want the criteria to be as flexible as possible while maintaining some degree of control so as to not let every single poorly-explained variant of the criteria to pass through.

 

[Ogbunabali]

The mandatory guidelines was more so of a response towards Agnaa wanting stricter qualifications on what qualifies and doesn't qualify as a UES. Not that I don't agree with making the standards a little bit tight for easier identification of said energy sources.

I really don't think there should be very strict rules when it comes to something like this because it just puts us in a situation where something that should qualify, based on the concept, wouldn't be accepted. Or if it would be accepted, it would go directly against the strict rules which would make the rules less important by precedence. So instead they should be remade into general guidelines that would be used to evaluate a verses qualification for this based on their context, instead of a checklist.

 

[KLOL506]

I really don't think there should be very strict rules when it comes to something like this because it just puts us in a situation where something that should qualify, based on the concept, wouldn't be accepted. Or if it would be accepted, it would go directly against the strict rules which would make the rules less important by precedence. So instead they should be remade into general guidelines that would be used to evaluate a verses qualification for this based on their context, instead of a checklist.

Guess we can just remove the "Mandatory" and "Supplementary" headlines and just replace it with a "General guidelines to qualify" sort of thing.

 

[Agnaa]

In general I don't care about the actual UES standards themselves, I care about creation feats scaling through them. Hence why I pushed for the creation feats stuff to be a mandatory requirement when scaling creation feats; I don't want creation feats scaling just because a magic system is important to the series' lore.

My only outstanding worry with that is how we handle the edge-cases. It's pretty clear that...

• If a character's creation feat is more exhausting (or has a statement of using more of their energy system than) all of their destruction feats, it shouldn't scale.
• If a character's creation feat is less exhausting (or has a statement of using less than or an equal amount of their energy system to) some of their destruction feats, it should scale to those destruction feats.

But we've run into disagreements over what to do in cases where, say, a character's creation feat is laughably casual, but all of their destructive feats are similarly laughably casual. There could still be a large difference in energy usage there, it could just be imperceptible with how much energy that character can wield (something requiring 10 mana and 1000 mana is a big difference to a mage with 1000 mana, but not to a mage with 10^10^10 mana).

This can also be an issue for artifacts, which often have few indicators on how straining a feat is until they're depleted entirely. Or for feats that happen off-screen, not giving us any idea of how strenuous they are.