Universal Energy Systems

[Ogbunabali]

Guess we can just remove the "Mandatory" and "Supplementary" headlines and just replace it with a "General guidelines to qualify" sort of thing.

That's what I'd prefer, yeah.

 

[KLOL506]

In general I don't care about the actual UES standards themselves, I care about creation feats scaling through them. Hence why I pushed for the creation feats stuff to be a mandatory requirement when scaling creation feats; I don't want creation feats scaling just because a magic system is important to the series' lore.

My only outstanding worry with that is how we handle the edge-cases. It's pretty clear that...

• If a character's creation feat is more exhausting (or has a statement of using more of their energy system than) all of their destruction feats, it shouldn't scale.
• If a character's creation feat is less exhausting (or has a statement of using less than or an equal amount of their energy system to) some of their destruction feats, it should scale to those destruction feats.

But we've run into disagreements over what to do in cases where, say, a character's creation feat is laughably casual, but all of their destructive feats are similarly laughably casual. There could still be a large difference in energy usage there, it could just be imperceptible with how much energy that character can wield (something requiring 10 mana and 1000 mana is a big difference to a mage with 1000 mana, but not to a mage with 10^10^10 mana).

This can also be an issue for artifacts, which often have few indicators on how straining a feat is until they're depleted entirely. Or for feats that happen off-screen, not giving us any idea of how strenuous they are.

Ah, so it's the issue regarding what evidence can be used to qualify for that criteria. I finally get it now. The whole "Creation Feats must be equally-or-less-exhausting than normal base attacks" is a definitive requirement for Creation Feats, that much we agree on.

Of course, I still have disagreements with you regarding what can be used to prove that criteria (Which I provided reasons for like checking to see if there's any situation involving the character holding back, concentrating their attacks to avoid collateral damage and whatnot, prolly more reasons which you are free to recommend to me if you find any), but I'm guessing we're not budging on that.

Buuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuut like AKM and KingTempest have said, this requirement is prolly best put somewhere else instead of the UES page.

 

[KLOL506]

That's what I'd prefer, yeah.

OK then, guess Hellbeast is in for a wild ride with the draft once he gets off of work, since me no have editing access ATM.

I guess we're back to square one then, no longer having any mandatory criteria but just a bunch of recommendations and guidelines.

 

[ByAsura]

@ByAsura

Pretty much what I was going to say when I saw this thread was that these should be guidelines instead of rules, but I've been beaten to it.

 

[KLOL506]

Pretty much what I was going to say when I saw this thread was that these should be guidelines instead of rules, but I've been beaten to it.

Yeah, just waiting on Hellbeast to be free from work to remove the "Mandatory" and "Supplementary" headlines and replace them with "General Guidelines" type of thing. (Of course, that just means more extra work for me and I have to re-message the staff people again)

BTW, now that they're just guidelines and not strict rules anymore, are you fine with them?

 

[ByAsura]

Seems mostly fine (basically just wording nitpicks).

 

[ElixirBlue]

Archie Sonic so cleanly applies its not even funny. Seems fine.

However, I do agree the Doc in its current state should not go through. The Meta shouldn't factor as part of the guidelines.

Tho, I agree with Prom. We do tend to treat the guidelines as rules, which is why the guidelines should be somewhat flexible.

 

[KLOL506]

However, I do agree the Doc in its current state should not go through. The Meta shouldn't factor as part of the guidelines.

Again, it's no longer a requirement, it's a guideline now. Also I still believe they should serve as excellent supporting evidence, even if no longer mandatory.

We're still working on adding a few more guidelines based on what Gilver said above and we're gonna factor in allowing situations like the "Naruto absorbing the same energy from different sources" scenario.

Tho, I agree with Prom. We do tend to treat the guidelines as rules, which is why the guidelines should be somewhat flexible.

Once again, while they are rules, they're not strict mandatory rules per se anymore. They're just guidelines.

 

[ElixirBlue]

Again, it's no longer a requirement, it's a guideline now

Wait, how is mentioning the Meta a guideline?

 

[KLOL506]

Wait, how is mentioning the Meta a guideline?

I thought you were having an issue with the energy source being a fundamental aspect of the verse's lore and its elements as a whole (With the element parts including both a natural and metaphysical stuff).

 

[ElixirBlue]

These are often an incredibly key part of Vs Debates and just as often a key point of contention in battleboarding,

Mostly this

 

[KLOL506]

Mostly this

Oh that? Yeah, that I totally agree removing.

But this?

The energy source must have a core underpinning to the verse’s metaphysical or natural elements and/or must be tightly integrated into the verse’s lore, as this would certainly be a helpful piece of evidence (such as the Force “binding the universe together” and being tied to all life)

Nah, this should definitely remain as a guideline to serve as supporting evidence.

 

[Hellbeast]

Mostly this

Yeah I can remove that if needed

 

[Duedate8898]

I find the guidelines set forward to be agreeable and I hold no real issues with the document

 

[KLOL506]

Seems mostly fine (basically just wording nitpicks).

Thank you. (I'm pretty sure Hellbeast will be more than helpful to sort out the wording nitpicks LOL)

 

[GrathOfLux]

I've taken a look through the document, and it seems pretty reasonable to me!

 

[KLOL506]

I've taken a look through the document, and it seems pretty reasonable to me!

Thank you. Granted, the draft is not yet complete, we're still in the process of removing the "Mandatory" and "Supplementary" headlines to make the guidelines, well... guidelines again like they should've been from the beginning and not strict absolute rules that have to be followed.

Also there's one or two criteria left.

 

[Hellbeast]

Thank you. Granted, the draft is not yet complete, we're still in the process of removing the "Mandatory" and "Supplementary" headlines to make the guidelines, well... guidelines again like they should've been from the beginning and not strict absolute rules that have to be followed.

I mean yeah that was the plan from the start, no idea why we had to change it. Speaking of I just removed the headlines; anything else need to be removed?

 

[Hellbeast]

I believe there was an issue with the "external item" criteria for disqualification

 

[KLOL506]

I believe there was an issue with the "external item" criteria for disqualification

Yeah, Gilver gave a suggestion for it I belive.

 

[KLOL506]

There were also some issues regarding the "singular energy source" thing where in cases one character has his own energy reserves and the character absorbs the same type of energy but this time from his surrounding environment. Like Naruto, who already has massive chakra reserves, but can tap into Senjutsu Chakra for his Sage mode by absorbing chakra from his surroundings to become even stronger. It's the same exact energy with all the same properties, mechanics and inner workings, just that it's found somewhere else other than Naruto's own body.

We gotta reword that to allow cases like the above to qualify too. I was actually thinking about a similar requirement like this like in a sci-fi setting where some weapons tap into the same power source while having different functions, but their functions having the same properties, mechanics and visual aesthetics and so on.

 

[Antoniofer]

If for those kind of specific cases that creating a rule that revolve around differents sources of energies end up being kind of useless, at the end one just look at the source and find out how it works in that verse. But I guess this thread stopped from creating a rule to simply creating a guide line, so I don't think nothing changed with the typical case-by-case method.

 

[KLOL506]

If for those kind of specific cases that creating a rule that revolve around differents sources of energies end up being kind of useless, at the end one just look at the source and find out how it works in that verse.

That falls under the "common energy source" criteria.

Also take in mind that when we wrote "singular energy source" we weren't actually referring to them being obtainable from separate locations via Absorption, just that we were referring to using the same energy type. Of course, this turned into a wording issue and now we're clarifying on it a bit more.

But I guess this thread stopped from creating a rule to simply creating a guide line, so I don't think nothing changed with the typical case-by-case method.

I fail to see from what angle these guidelines are case-by-case. Most of these guidelines are based on the commonalities that many universal energy sources share.

It's not uncommon for such verses to be able to absorb the same type of energy from other sources, like their surroundings. Just look at Dragon Ball's very own Spirit Bomb.

 

[ByAsura]

If they covered every nook and cranny of every verse, we'd be here all month.

Just having a general sense is more than fine enough (although, not having it at all is also plausible, even if mean spirited).

 

[KLOL506]

If they covered every nook and cranny of every verse, we'd be here all month.

True, but even those verses would at the very least have some or most of those criteria fulfilled properly in one way or another (Unless someone tries using poorly-explained variations of course, that's a different story).

Just having a general sense is more than fine enough.

Yes, that's what the aim is.

 

[ByAsura]

I was talking to Ant.

 

[Antoniofer]

Absorbing energy from the environment is not weird, but if the character can now perform a even stronger attack, or if the amount absorbed will enhance its physical condition, is because the character showed to do so or was stated to do so, not because guideline said so. Whenever if the character abosrbed generatic energy or an specific energy is not really relevant.

 

[KLOL506]

Absorbing energy from the environment is not weird, but if the character can now perform a even stronger attack, or if the amount absorbed will enhance its physical condition, is because the character showed to do so or was stated to do so, not because guideline said so.

What the heck does that even mean? A character being shown or stated to do so just means they qualify for one of the guidelines (Even though they're not mandatory anymore). We don't have terms like "need to" or "must have" on the draft for no reason, and the character being showed or being stated to do so is valid enough reasoning to qualify for said terms. I really don't see the issue with this.

On no planet is there gonna be a case where we prevent a verse from qualifying for said guidelines if the story explicitly confirms or blurts out as such.

 

[Axxtentacle]

...why does everyone think this is going to be applied to verses that don't qualify lmao

 

[KLOL506]

...why does everyone think this is going to be applied to verses that don't qualify lmao

Beats me

 

[Antoniofer]

...why does everyone think this is going to be applied to verses that don't qualify lmao

Personally, I consider the guidelines to be not necessary at best: the reasonable users will simply look at the verse and evaluate and scale based of what the verse states, independently of how other verses threat similar energies. At worst, however, people will prioritize the guidelines over how the verse and threat whatever energy in +100k verses as they works in the same way as like +10 verses; then you have a bunch of Q&A threads asking "Those this qualify as UES?", or attemps of upgrades/downgrades using only the baselines as the basis.

 

[KLOL506]

Personally, I consider the guidelines to be not necessary at best: the reasonable users will simply look at the verse and evaluate and scale based of what the verse states, independently of how other verses threat similar energies.

I seriously doubt they'd lack the core mechanics of what has been laid out in the draft (Self-amping/amping weapons, singular energy type, common energy type, serving as a fundamental aspect of lore or being tightly-integrated with the elements, direct correlations between the power source and abilities, loss of energy source resulting in a severe reduction of strength, etcetera, these are the bare minimums of what constitutes a UES, this much is undeniable). Those core mechanics are the bare minimums of what constitutes as a UES. Sure, they might have different names, inner workings and different stories of their origins but their core mechanics overall would more or less remain the same.

At worst, however, people will prioritize the guidelines over how the verse and threat whatever energy in +100k verses as they works in the same way as like +10 verses; then you have a bunch of Q&A threads asking "Those this qualify as UES?", or attemps of upgrades/downgrades using only the baselines as the basis.

Doubt it, we're already gonna write down in bold in the draft that they are not meant to be taken as absolute maxims but rather they're there to help quantify what is and what isn't a UES and what does and doesn't allow for scaling powers to physical Striking Strength and dura via UES.

Also it's not as if we're gonna let every single low-quality statements without context just pass through willy-nilly. We already have Q&A threads for even more common site policies. There's also nothing stopping them from making blogs about said energy sources and their mechanics.

 

[Antvasima]

I am personally uncertain what we should do here, as both Medeus, KLOL, Ogbunabali, Agnaa, Antoniofer, and Promestein make good points above. However, I am leaning towards that mentioning that these are information guidelines instead of strict rules within the page itself seems like an acceptable compromise solution.

It is very important that Promestein is fine with this though, as she is a fellow bureaucrat who usually has a better sense of judgement than I have.

 

[KLOL506]

I am personally uncertain what we should do here, as both Medeus, KLOL, Ogbunabali, Agnaa, Antoniofer, and Promestein make good points above. However, I am leaning towards that mentioning that these are information guidelines instead of strict rules within the page itself seems like an acceptable compromise solution.

It is very important that Promestein is fine with this though, as she is a fellow bureaucrat who usually has a better sense of judgement than I have.

Here's the thing, Prom is not getting the point. They aren't rules anymore like I and Hellbeast have stressed enough, they're just guidelines now. And like we stated, we are more than welcome to changes that make the guidelines more flexible and encompassing while also maintaining control to avoid abuse.

 

[Antvasima]

Here's the thing, Prom is not getting the point. They aren't rules anymore like I and Hellbeast have stressed enough, they're just guidelines now. And like we stated, we are more than welcome to changes that make the guidelines more flexible and encompassing while also maintaining control to avoid abuse.

Okay. That seems reasonable.

What do you think @Promestein ?

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

It also goes without saying that DontTalkDT is one of the main people who agrees with it, who is not only our consultant and backbone of calculation policies, but a lot more than that can also be said.

 

[Antvasima]

Okay. DontTalk is usually likely the most intelligent, sensible, and rational member of our staff in my experience.

 

[KLOL506]

Okay. DontTalk is usually likely the most intelligent, sensible, and rational member of our staff in my experience.

And, I've already contacted him about this thread.

Of course, once Hellbeast gets back and adds the new points I'm gonna have to send out messages to all the other staff members again to come take a look.

 

[Antvasima]

Okay. I think that I sent a notification about this to every staff member earlier though.

 

[KLOL506]

Okay. I think that I sent a notification about this to every staff member earlier though.

Yes, you did, but a lot of them already gave their opinions I think, they'd prolly have to do it again once the draft has the amends made to it.