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I do agree with this being made a thing. I also agree with DDM.
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How would the first thing be indicative of a system not being universal? I don't really understand the logic there. Otherwise I do feel your qualifiers are better.Just a heads up, I think this thread she be focused on the concept at hand for universal energy systems rather than individual types of feats being scaled to physical stats; temperature feats, creation feats, ect. Each of those either already had their own threads or are going to have their own threads eventually. Topic at hand is just idea on universal energy sources or what qualifies as "Universal energy source".
But I think one of the most examples of what qualifies as "Universal energy source" is a verse or character's portrayal basically treating each and every power and ability, or at least most of them, as a subpower of a much more universal. Examples include, Chi Manipulation, Energy Manipulation, Magic, Data Manipulation. Verses like Digimon and Megaman (Which Samus Aran from Metroid also falls into this category as well) have something where all elemental and supernatural powers as well as superhuman physical characteristics are treated as a subpower of universal digital data. Which is basically what their version of Ki/Chakra Control and what not is.
And I think it has more to do with how balanced and universal an energy source is than it does the substance or internal vs external status. I know a common example is magic, which magic is admittedly more controversial than Ki or Chakra and has cases of where it can be just as universal, or cases where it's not universal. And a multitude of where in between.
- There are examples where each and every spell comes from a very specific artifact, and the potency doesn't change just because the caster is stronger, or more skilled at harnessing powers. Those are examples of them not being universal.
- There are examples for the pool of mana being everything magic; they are usually universal unless their best feats come from their absolute strongest spells that basically wipe the casters out after one use. And may not scale to physicals outside of other feats, but it would almost at least scale to everything except for physical stats.
- There are those same with previous two, but also consistently trade blows. And some attacks do have physical properties, so it scales to durability but not striking strength. Same with 1st bullet point with the exception of magic tomes being amped by potency of the caster who carries most of the weight.
- But then of course, there are examples where they use the same pool of mana to amp physical stats. And physical stat amps can be more advanced or stated to use comparable if not more power than individual spells. Those are basically Ki/Chakra control parallel examples and would thus scale universally.
Yeah we stopped talking about individual feats being scaled to physical stats in a universal energy source stuff a while back. We're now just talking about the standards of a universal energy source and what qualifies as one.Just a heads up, I think this thread she be focused on the concept at hand for universal energy systems rather than individual types of feats being scaled to physical stats; temperature feats, creation feats, ect. Each of those either already had their own threads or are going to have their own threads eventually. Topic at hand is just idea on universal energy sources or what qualifies as "Universal energy source".
The reason this was made, presumably, is because there's a lot of verses we have said have universal energy systems and argued for, but are always controversial because there's no standards for such a thing.Without knowing the specific issues that lead to this thread, I am going to say that this sounds like making rules for the sake of making rules and not necessarily for improving the wiki.
See my new post. What does the universality or lack thereof put at stake?The reason this was made, presumably, is because there's a lot of verses we have said have universal energy systems and argued for, but are always controversial because there's no standards for such a thing.
Well, it can affect whether certain feats can scale to one's physical strength and durability. That is unarguably it's biggest selling point, and a pretty important one at that.See my new post. What does the universality or lack thereof put at stake?
Wouldn't this also effect the potency of hax? If the UES scales to physical strength could it in theory also scale to hax potency and resistance? Sat for example, the UES is used to increase the potency and resistance to mind and soul hax?Well, it can affect whether certain feats can scale to one's physical strength and durability. That is unarguably it's biggest selling point, and a pretty important one at that.
A universal power system is just something like Ki where it's what is used for everything, it would be used to scale things like storm feats or creation feats (any feat that doesn't inherently scale to physicals) to physicals if the energy system fits the criteria.See my new post. What does the universality or lack thereof put at stake?
Hm. I think I'm getting caught up on the phrasing of the thread. My perspective is that a power system being "universal" shouldn't be the prerequisite for it scaling to physicals....but what this thread is actually talking about is "how to know if a power system automatically scales abilities to physicals, like in your favorite shonen".Well, it can affect whether certain feats can scale to one's physical strength and durability. That is unarguably it's biggest selling point, and a pretty important one at that.
A universal energy system is just one such way for scaling certain feats to one's physicals. Of course, blatant statements and/or confirmations in the story can also work as decent qualifiers. So while universal energy systems are a prerequisite, they're not the only prerequisite you can rely on to scale certain feats to physicals. That much is final.Hm. I think I'm getting caught up on the phrasing of the thread. My perspective is that a power system being "universal" shouldn't be the prerequisite for it scaling to physicals....but what this thread is actually talking about is "how to know if a power system automatically scales abilities to physicals, like in your favorite shonen".
Yeah, I think what's catching me up is that the issue actually being discussed is something you see often in media with universal power systems, but isn't necessarily something you need a universal power system to have happen.A universal energy system is just one such way for scaling certain feats to one's physicals. Of course, blatant statements and/or confirmations in the story can also work as decent qualifiers.
But for the most part, yes, this is indeed about "how to spot if a universal power system automatically scales to physicals" guideline thread.
Yeah, like I said, a universal power system is just one of the ways you can make it happen, blatant in-verse statements and/or confirmations also work.Yeah, I think what's catching me up is that the issue actually being discussed is something you see often in media with universal power systems, but isn't necessarily something you need a universal power system to have happen.
There is some merit to your point.Yeah, I think what's catching me up is that the issue actually being discussed is something you see often in media with universal power systems, but isn't necessarily something you need a universal power system to have happen.
Yeah, this is what I was getting at. It's like, the system doesn't have to rule the whole fiction's universe for it to meet these metrics.There is some merit to your point.
As long as some energy system, no matter how rare is able to qualify for prerequisites, I think it is fine.
I mean, physical exhaustion is one of them, quickly running out of stamina as a result (Excess fatigue in a nutshell). Kakashi dying of Mangekyo Sharingan overusage works as an example, or having your life drained out of you should also qualify as pretty painful/traumatic.Anyway, one point I want to add or rephrase: in the criteria for universality/ability-scales-to-physicals-ness, there's a point about "losing the power is a major loss". I might also add that removing the power should be either extremely difficult or painful/traumatic to the person losing it, or possibly lethal (as that would evidence a connection between their physical being and the abilities).
Regarding that would about "undead" line skeletal warriors, or zombies using the same UES as living beings. Or inanimate objects such as the Earth, or an ordinary stone golem? Or robotsAnyway, one point I want to add or rephrase: in the criteria for universality/ability-scales-to-physicals-ness, there's a point about "losing the power is a major loss". I might also add that removing the power should be either extremely difficult or painful/traumatic to the person losing it, or possibly lethal (as that would evidence a connection between their physical being and the abilities).
Still an interesting point that I didn't consider.Regarding that would about "undead" line skeletal warriors, or zombies using the same UES as living beings. Or inanimate objects such as the Earth, or an ordinary stone golem? Or robots
Edir: I suppose traumatic loss or a major loss if removed would help them qualify nvm
Wouldn't this also effect the potency of hax? If the UES scales to physical strength could it in theory also scale to hax potency and resistance?
Good point. But me personally am no good with handling hax potency, which I believe is having its own thread. We're just dealing with the AP, Striking Strength and Durability portion in this thread.It guess EUS could affect both hax potency and hax resistance, or at least when it come to hax resistance while hax potency may be case-by-case depend by how the specific hax work.
If a character show immunity/resistance to certain attacks/abilities and it was simply a matter of strength/power rather than the character having a distint physiology then yes, resistance should at least scale to other comparable if not stronger characters.
A perfect example would be Hakai in Dragon Ball.
I have been summoned?Except, some people have a problem with the cold aspect.
This thread, or cold thread?I have been summoned?
Well, I am currently not at home, but oh boi, I'll have a field day with this one once I am back. Tons of stuff to say about it.
How about we keep the cold stuff for another thread? This thread isn't about that.I have been summoned?
Well, I am currently not at home, but oh boi, I'll have a field day with this one once I am back. Tons of stuff to say about it.
Well, my cold thread is currently on hiatus, so this thread.This thread, or cold thread?
Sorry to say, but derailing is not gonna get anyone anywhere.Well, my cold thread is currently on hiatus, so this thread.
huh? What are you even on about? I said I'll reply to this thread later. If that's derailing I am sorry. Ig?Sorry to say, but derailing is not gonna get anyone anywhere.
This thread is exclusively for universal energy source scaling guidelines and nothing else.
Just a note that this is what this thread is about, I'd suggest to stick to this and not mention any other topics, they will be dealt in their own specific threads in due time.Just a heads up, I think this thread she be focused on the concept at hand for universal energy systems rather than individual types of feats being scaled to physical stats; temperature feats, creation feats, ect. Each of those either already had their own threads or are going to have their own threads eventually. Topic at hand is just idea on universal energy sources or what qualifies as "Universal energy source".
I'm talking about the fact that you're not supposed to mention any other topic beside what's on this thread.huh? What are you even on about? I said I'll reply to this thread later. If that's derailing I am sorry. Ig?
Then that's great.I never mentioned anything else tho? I know what this thread is about. Pls stop putting words into my mouth, lol
You were the one that mentioned cold in the first place.I'm talking about the fact that you're not supposed to mention any other topic beside what's on this thread.
That's because ShadowWhoWalks mentioned it before I did via linking to Dargoo's thread. So I wanted to clarify what our current positions were regarding it.You were the one that mentioned cold in the first place.
I have no issues with this.Another example that has come to mind of inapplicable/invalid EUS would be Magic from Harry Potter.
As in the story there were never be an incantation to make someone physically stronger, or use it in a physical confrontation.
Yes, magic feats should still scale to each other and it should be apply to magic barriers, but nothing else.
Same with Magic from Dragon Ball, it was clearly made to be different from Ki and that it doesn't necessarely make someone physically strong.
Agreed.I don't agree with that. "Empowering punches" is a wee bit arbitrary. Now, I agree durability should be linked, but "empowering punches" just sounds like such an arbitrary expectation or method of outputting damage via your UES.