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We need to talk about Universal Energy Systems

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DarkDragonMedeus said:
Just a heads up, I think this thread she be focused on the concept at hand for universal energy systems rather than individual types of feats being scaled to physical stats; temperature feats, creation feats, ect. Each of those either already had their own threads or are going to have their own threads eventually. Topic at hand is just idea on universal energy sources or what qualifies as "Universal energy source".

But I think one of the most examples of what qualifies as "Universal energy source" is a verse or character's portrayal basically treating each and every power and ability, or at least most of them, as a subpower of a much more universal. Examples include, Chi Manipulation, Energy Manipulation, Magic, Data Manipulation. Verses like Digimon and Megaman (Which Samus Aran from Metroid also falls into this category as well) have something where all elemental and supernatural powers as well as superhuman physical characteristics are treated as a subpower of universal digital data. Which is basically what their version of Ki/Chakra Control and what not is.

And I think it has more to do with how balanced and universal an energy source is than it does the substance or internal vs external status. I know a common example is magic, which magic is admittedly more controversial than Ki or Chakra and has cases of where it can be just as universal, or cases where it's not universal. And a multitude of where in between.
  • There are examples where each and every spell comes from a very specific artifact, and the potency doesn't change just because the caster is stronger, or more skilled at harnessing powers. Those are examples of them not being universal.
  • There are examples for the pool of mana being everything magic; they are usually universal unless their best feats come from their absolute strongest spells that basically wipe the casters out after one use. And may not scale to physicals outside of other feats, but it would almost at least scale to everything except for physical stats.
  • There are those same with previous two, but also consistently trade blows. And some attacks do have physical properties, so it scales to durability but not striking strength. Same with 1st bullet point with the exception of magic tomes being amped by potency of the caster who carries most of the weight.
  • But then of course, there are examples where they use the same pool of mana to amp physical stats. And physical stat amps can be more advanced or stated to use comparable if not more power than individual spells. Those are basically Ki/Chakra control parallel examples and would thus scale universally.
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How would the first thing be indicative of a system not being universal? I don't really understand the logic there. Otherwise I do feel your qualifiers are better.
 
DarkDragonMedeus said:
Just a heads up, I think this thread she be focused on the concept at hand for universal energy systems rather than individual types of feats being scaled to physical stats; temperature feats, creation feats, ect. Each of those either already had their own threads or are going to have their own threads eventually. Topic at hand is just idea on universal energy sources or what qualifies as "Universal energy source".
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Yeah we stopped talking about individual feats being scaled to physical stats in a universal energy source stuff a while back. We're now just talking about the standards of a universal energy source and what qualifies as one.
 
Without knowing the specific issues that lead to this thread, I am going to say that this sounds like making rules for the sake of making rules and not necessarily for improving the wiki.
 
@Mr._Bambu

More so that not it's not be default, but more like a character uses a different scroll or wand for each very specific spell, and each of those are capable of using a very different spell not linked in any way or form. I know it's a rare example to my knowledge, but I meant examples where it's absolutely exclusive to their object's power and not the character. And those are basically magic items anyone can pick up and use.
 
KatBoi69 said:
Without knowing the specific issues that lead to this thread, I am going to say that this sounds like making rules for the sake of making rules and not necessarily for improving the wiki.
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The reason this was made, presumably, is because there's a lot of verses we have said have universal energy systems and argued for, but are always controversial because there's no standards for such a thing.
 
Ok. I read the Google doc. I still don't understand what this is intended to fix. It makes me think of a policy debate argument where someone has failed to prove "harms", aka, a reason why the question for the debate needs to be addressed in the first place.

What's at stake when a powersystem is or isn't considered universal?
 
Axxtentacle said:
The reason this was made, presumably, is because there's a lot of verses we have said have universal energy systems and argued for, but are always controversial because there's no standards for such a thing.
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See my new post. What does the universality or lack thereof put at stake?
 
KLOL506 said:
Well, it can affect whether certain feats can scale to one's physical strength and durability. That is unarguably it's biggest selling point, and a pretty important one at that.
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Wouldn't this also effect the potency of hax? If the UES scales to physical strength could it in theory also scale to hax potency and resistance? Sat for example, the UES is used to increase the potency and resistance to mind and soul hax?

For Saint Seiya, Cosmo is the UES. It's used in both mind and soul hax for potency but Cosmo can also be used to resist said haxes
 
KLOL506 said:
Well, it can affect whether certain feats can scale to one's physical strength and durability. That is unarguably it's biggest selling point, and a pretty important one at that.
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Hm. I think I'm getting caught up on the phrasing of the thread. My perspective is that a power system being "universal" shouldn't be the prerequisite for it scaling to physicals....but what this thread is actually talking about is "how to know if a power system automatically scales abilities to physicals, like in your favorite shonen".

Ok yeah, I think aside from the semantics of how this was put forward, I can see why having a set of criteria for whether or not hax and casting scale to physicals is important..
 
KatBoi69 said:
Hm. I think I'm getting caught up on the phrasing of the thread. My perspective is that a power system being "universal" shouldn't be the prerequisite for it scaling to physicals....but what this thread is actually talking about is "how to know if a power system automatically scales abilities to physicals, like in your favorite shonen".
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A universal energy system is just one such way for scaling certain feats to one's physicals. Of course, blatant statements and/or confirmations in the story can also work as decent qualifiers. So while universal energy systems are a prerequisite, they're not the only prerequisite you can rely on to scale certain feats to physicals. That much is final.

But for the most part, yes, this is indeed a "how to spot if a universal power system automatically scales to physicals" guideline thread.
 
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KLOL506 said:
A universal energy system is just one such way for scaling certain feats to one's physicals. Of course, blatant statements and/or confirmations in the story can also work as decent qualifiers.

But for the most part, yes, this is indeed about "how to spot if a universal power system automatically scales to physicals" guideline thread.
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Yeah, I think what's catching me up is that the issue actually being discussed is something you see often in media with universal power systems, but isn't necessarily something you need a universal power system to have happen.
 
KatBoi69 said:
Yeah, I think what's catching me up is that the issue actually being discussed is something you see often in media with universal power systems, but isn't necessarily something you need a universal power system to have happen.
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Yeah, like I said, a universal power system is just one of the ways you can make it happen, blatant in-verse statements and/or confirmations also work.
 
Anyway, one point I want to add or rephrase: in the criteria for universality/ability-scales-to-physicals-ness, there's a point about "losing the power is a major loss". I might also add that removing the power should be either extremely difficult or painful/traumatic to the person losing it, or possibly lethal (as that would evidence a connection between their physical being and the abilities).
 
KatBoi69 said:
Yeah, I think what's catching me up is that the issue actually being discussed is something you see often in media with universal power systems, but isn't necessarily something you need a universal power system to have happen.
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There is some merit to your point.

As long as some energy system, no matter how rare is able to qualify for prerequisites, I think it is fine.
 
GilverTheProtoAngelo said:
There is some merit to your point.

As long as some energy system, no matter how rare is able to qualify for prerequisites, I think it is fine.
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Yeah, this is what I was getting at. It's like, the system doesn't have to rule the whole fiction's universe for it to meet these metrics.
 
KatBoi69 said:
Anyway, one point I want to add or rephrase: in the criteria for universality/ability-scales-to-physicals-ness, there's a point about "losing the power is a major loss". I might also add that removing the power should be either extremely difficult or painful/traumatic to the person losing it, or possibly lethal (as that would evidence a connection between their physical being and the abilities).
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I mean, physical exhaustion is one of them, quickly running out of stamina as a result (Excess fatigue in a nutshell). Kakashi dying of Mangekyo Sharingan overusage works as an example, or having your life drained out of you should also qualify as pretty painful/traumatic.
 
KatBoi69 said:
Anyway, one point I want to add or rephrase: in the criteria for universality/ability-scales-to-physicals-ness, there's a point about "losing the power is a major loss". I might also add that removing the power should be either extremely difficult or painful/traumatic to the person losing it, or possibly lethal (as that would evidence a connection between their physical being and the abilities).
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Regarding that would about "undead" line skeletal warriors, or zombies using the same UES as living beings. Or inanimate objects such as the Earth, or an ordinary stone golem? Or robots

Edir: I suppose traumatic loss or a major loss if removed would help them qualify nvm
 
TheUnshakableOne said:
Regarding that would about "undead" line skeletal warriors, or zombies using the same UES as living beings. Or inanimate objects such as the Earth, or an ordinary stone golem? Or robots

Edir: I suppose traumatic loss or a major loss if removed would help them qualify nvm
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Still an interesting point that I didn't consider.

I personally think this is one of the better criteria on that list, but it needs a little refining.
 
TheUnshakableOne said:
Wouldn't this also effect the potency of hax? If the UES scales to physical strength could it in theory also scale to hax potency and resistance?
Click to expand...

It guess EUS should affect both hax potency and hax resistance within a verse, or at least when it come to hax resistance while hax potency may be case-by-case depend by how the specific hax work.

If a character show immunity/resistance to certain attacks/abilities and it was simply a matter of strength/power rather than the character having a distinct physiology then yes, resistance should at least scale to other comparable if not stronger characters.

A perfect example would be Hakai in Dragon Ball, both in terms of hax potency and hax resistance.
 
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Stefano4444 said:
It guess EUS could affect both hax potency and hax resistance, or at least when it come to hax resistance while hax potency may be case-by-case depend by how the specific hax work.

If a character show immunity/resistance to certain attacks/abilities and it was simply a matter of strength/power rather than the character having a distint physiology then yes, resistance should at least scale to other comparable if not stronger characters.

A perfect example would be Hakai in Dragon Ball.
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Good point. But me personally am no good with handling hax potency, which I believe is having its own thread. We're just dealing with the AP, Striking Strength and Durability portion in this thread.
 
RatherClueless said:
I have been summoned?

Well, I am currently not at home, but oh boi, I'll have a field day with this one once I am back. Tons of stuff to say about it.
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How about we keep the cold stuff for another thread? This thread isn't about that.
 
KLOL506 said:
Sorry to say, but derailing is not gonna get anyone anywhere.

This thread is exclusively for universal energy source scaling guidelines and nothing else.
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huh? What are you even on about? I said I'll reply to this thread later. If that's derailing I am sorry. Ig?
 
DarkDragonMedeus said:
Just a heads up, I think this thread she be focused on the concept at hand for universal energy systems rather than individual types of feats being scaled to physical stats; temperature feats, creation feats, ect. Each of those either already had their own threads or are going to have their own threads eventually. Topic at hand is just idea on universal energy sources or what qualifies as "Universal energy source".
Click to expand...
Just a note that this is what this thread is about, I'd suggest to stick to this and not mention any other topics, they will be dealt in their own specific threads in due time.
 
It seems like this is something important and should be helpful. A lot of respectable mods have also agreed with this as well, so add me as a supporter.
 
Another example that has come to mind of inapplicable/invalid EUS would be Magic from Harry Potter.

As in the story there were never be an incantation to make someone physically stronger, or use it in a physical confrontation.

Yes, magic feats should still scale to each other and it should be apply to magic barriers, but nothing else.

Same with Magic from Dragon Ball, it was clearly made to be different from Ki and that it doesn't necessarely make someone physically strong.

Also Devil Fruits and Semblances from RWBY count too, as they are far more similar to Quirks and X-Genes.
 
Stefano4444 said:
Another example that has come to mind of inapplicable/invalid EUS would be Magic from Harry Potter.

As in the story there were never be an incantation to make someone physically stronger, or use it in a physical confrontation.

Yes, magic feats should still scale to each other and it should be apply to magic barriers, but nothing else.

Same with Magic from Dragon Ball, it was clearly made to be different from Ki and that it doesn't necessarely make someone physically strong.
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I have no issues with this.
 
Mr._Bambu said:
I don't agree with that. "Empowering punches" is a wee bit arbitrary. Now, I agree durability should be linked, but "empowering punches" just sounds like such an arbitrary expectation or method of outputting damage via your UES.
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Agreed.

If a verse has an energy system where everybody on the planet has the innate ability to use it, it won’t be allowed cause they can’t punch with it? That’s not fair
 
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