Adding types systems to more abilities

[Deadguy999]

So I created/commented on quite some matchups recently and found it’s quite confusing for certain abilities to hax. An example would be poison manipulation.

Let’s say in a matchup, character A has position manipulation and character B has no resistance to it. In this case, we typically would decide that character A would just hax character B and kill him. But that is not even the case in real life. There are a lot of animals with poison in the real world but only some of them can kill a human. Some others poison would just afflict the victim’s body to a certain degree like paralyzing or make breathing difficult.

That’s why I suggest to create types systems for more abilities just like what we did in Regeneration and Acasuality. We can rank characters’ abilities types by considering how potent they are. Like in Poison Manipulation’s case, how big of an area it can afflict to a human body or if it can kill him, how long would it take to do so.

I made a list of abilities that I think are suitable for this revamp. Feel free to add more.

• Reality Warping
• Light Manipulation
• Matter Manipulation
• Body Control
• Magnetism Manipulation, Metal Manipulation
• Time Manipulation

 

[Delusionaltx2]

I think it would be pretty cool if we added measurements as to how we measure the potency of poisons IRL to poison manipulation in fiction.


that said idk how we'd go abt it though

 

[Deadguy999]

Bump

 

[ByArrow]

Let’s say in a matchup, character A has position manipulation and character B has no resistance to it. In this case, we typically would decide that character A would just hax character B and kill him.

No.
We look at how Character A's poison manipulation works and its effect. We look at whether it can be avoided, how long the effect lasts, and what effect it has. Based on these factors, we decide whether Character A can defeat Character B with poison manipulation.

But that is not even the case in real life. There are a lot of animals with poison in the real world but only some of them can kill a human. Some others poison would just afflict the victim’s body to a certain degree like paralyzing or make breathing difficult.

As I said above.

That’s why I suggest to create types systems for more abilities just like what we did in Regeneration and Acasuality. We can rank characters’ abilities types by considering how potent they are. Like in Poison Manipulation’s case, how big of an area it can afflict to a human body or if it can kill him, how long would it take to do so.

Have you prepared a draft?

Not to mention in matchups people often take a lot of time to discuss the skill levels of characters. If we add types to martial arts/acrobatics/weapon mastery we certainly can ease this issue and also avoid skillstomps in most cases.

This has been discussed many times and rejected.

• Poison Manipulation
• Temperature Manipulation, Fire Manipulation, Ice Manipulation, Magma Manipulation
• Air Manipulation
• Technological Manipulation
• Electricity Manipulation
• Acid Manipulation
• Martial Arts
• Acrobatics
• Weapon Mastery
• Reality Warping
• Light Manipulation
• Matter Manipulation
• Body Control
• Matter Manipulation
• Magnetism Manipulation, Metal Manipulation
• Pain Manipulation

As I said, adding types for martial arts has been discussed many times and rejected. And you need to prepare a draft for all these abilities.

 

[Jinx666]

Ehhh its dependent on what sort of ability it is tbh.

If its something very vague thats interpreted differently in fictions and has multiple different applications, like Non-Physical Interaction then sure. Stuff like Elemental manipulations or other basic powers probably dont need it.

Otherwise you can just explain how their form of whatevermanipulation works and give examples on the actual profile itself

 

[ByArrow]

Additionally, since this proposal will affect thousands of pages across the wiki, it needs to be a Staff Thread.

 

[Detective_Blizzard]

If this actually goes anywhere I would like to recommend a revamp to Weapon Control, like it'd be so simple to just add general equipment to it since there are characters that can remote control specific things that aren't weapons

 

[Expectro2000xxx]

This is in the calc group forum instead of thread revision or staff discussion, so ask staff to move it to either forum.

 

[Deadguy999]

This has been discussed many times and rejected.

Ok they are removed

 

[Suigetsuhyugs]

Regarding poison it's not so much about the poison as it is much more about the dose, a human can drink the "most powerful" poison in existance and still survive if the dose it's not enough.
We rarely will know what poison it is since in fiction it's usually just a random green poison or an entirely fictional one.

I do think there is a need for types in this case, for example since Captain America has poison resistance for not getting drunk he could technically resist Poison Ivy's poisons because in wiki there is no distinction of power even though anyone with a minimum amount of sanity would say Captain America can't resist that level of poison.

The others you mention I can see some of them needing it but others not so much, temperature it's ruled by the one which can control either the highest or the lowers temperatures.

 

[Deadguy999]

Have you prepared a draft?

Draft done
https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/User:Deadguy999/Sandbox19
I also found out grim reaper actually don’t have poison manipulation. Can’t even find it in his own wiki

 

[Deadguy999]

Regarding poison it's not so much about the poison as it is much more about the dose, a human can drink the "most powerful" poison in existance and still survive if the dose it's not enough.

For dose I guess we could use the amount injected by the character in one attack in most cases like for cobra the dose of one bite

 

[Suigetsuhyugs]

Draft done
https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/User:Deadguy999/Sandbox19
I also found out grim reaper actually don’t have poison manipulation. Can’t even find it in his own wiki

I think that's too many in my opinion.
Low - for minor stuff like alcohol or poison dosage that are not lethal.
Mid - for lethal doses of a poison
High - for supernatural/fictional poisons that would be lethal even to superhumans.

 

[Jinx666]

Maybe one power this could apply to is Time Manipulation

Time Manipulation is super strong and has alot of forms such as stopping, accelerating/decelerating, rewinding, Time Manipulation of the state of objects etc. It becomes rather necessary to note what form the characters use cause it could very much usually decide a match

 

[Deadguy999]

I think that's too many in my opinion.
Low - for minor stuff like alcohol or poison dosage that are not lethal.
Mid - for lethal doses of a poison
High - for supernatural/fictional poisons that would be lethal even to superhumans.

Edited it. Now it has 4 different types. What do you think?
https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/User:Deadguy999/Sandbox19

 

[Suigetsuhyugs]

Edited it. Now it has 4 different types. What do you think?
https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/User:Deadguy999/Sandbox19

I think it's mostly fine but you should probably get into more details over each type so that it becames easier to define.

 

[Deadguy999]

I think it's mostly fine but you should probably get into more details over each type so that it becames easier to define.

Done. Added some notes and added some more explanation to the types.
https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/User:Deadguy999/Sandbox19

Btw can someone move it to staff discussion.

 

[Deadguy999]

Wait this haven’t been moved yet?

 

[IdiosyncraticLawyer]

I disagree with this. Types should only occur with abilities that have meaningfully distinct forms, and mere differences in potency, especially the ones you've proposed for poison, which is supposed to ignore durability anyway, don't qualify. None of the abilities you've suggested are sufficiently varied to need types, and you didn't even come with thought out proposals for most of them.

 

[Deadguy999]

Time Manipulation is super strong and has alot of forms such as stopping, accelerating/decelerating, rewinding, Time Manipulation of the state of objects etc. It becomes rather necessary to note what form the characters use cause it could very much usually decide a match

I disagree with this. Types should only occur with abilities that have meaningfully distinct forms, and mere differences in potency, especially the ones you've proposed for poison, which is supposed to ignore durability anyway, don't qualify. None of the abilities you've suggested are sufficiently varied to need types, and you didn't even come with thought out proposals for most of them.

Ok. Poison is removed. But I think Time, light and body control can be qualified? They have a lot of different ways to use

 

[IdiosyncraticLawyer]

Ok. Poison is removed. But I think Time, light and body control can be qualified? They have a lot of different ways to use

"Ways to use" being varied isn't grounds for different types; at best, just list possible uses. Abilities like acausality and so have clear, meaningful substantive distinctions between their types.

 

[Jinx666]

I think Time can qualify for that, given how detrimental it can be depending on its form. We had Time Stop as a separate ability for a while in that regard and it makes a huge difference on whether time is stopped or merely slowed for example

 

[DontTalkDT]

We should not have types for the sake of having types.
They cause extra work to decide for everyone which types they should get and types tend to make people ignore context, mechanism and direct comparision in favor of the number (or lack thereof). Often there is more of a spectrum, which is just better represented by just having people add god damn explanations to their abilities.

Given, types also have their place. Mainly because with no types at times unwritten standards of comparison develop. These standards usually being quite bad, since you can't properly revise unwritten standards.

So yeah, types should be used where necessary, not where possible.

(there is also a possible uses section on could... use. For stuff.)

 

[IdiosyncraticLawyer]

We should have types for the sake of having types.

*Shouldn't (presumably).

 

[IdiosyncraticLawyer]

@Antvasima Do you agree with this being closed?

 

[DontTalkDT]

*Shouldn't (presumably).

Yes.

@Antvasima Do you agree with this being closed?

Ant's on vacation, but I will close this. If specific abilities should get types for specific reasons, that can be discussed in a thread specifically for that ability.