Black Panther and co Revision

[Testarossa002]

Making this now so that it may be incorporated into the Speed Scaling for Part 2. If there's any useful feat to calc and all
Please do not bring up anything relating to Kirin here. I have an inkling it's going to be revised soon anyways.

So this

Naruto Elements: Raiton

vsbattles.fandom.com

This blog is all well and good except for one small part

Obviously not. Only some raiton jutsus does have it, like a lightning shot, from Kakuzu or Mitsuki. Animal shaped lightning, like Kakashi Hatake's lightning and Darui's Black Panther are not lightning speed.

The bolded part seems like an arbitrary cut-off point.
The two examples cited even have implications of being speed based

Lightning Beast Tracking Fang (Raiton: Raijuu Tsuiga)*
Ninjutsu, C-rank, Offensive, Supplementary, Close to mid range
User(s): Hatake Kakashi
A lightning beast that runs in hunting the enemy, to tear it with its deadly prey!!

The Lightning Release chakra of Raikiri materializes like a wolf and hunts its prey!! Even if the opponent is far away, a quick attack is still viable. Chasing with erratic, unpredictable movements is a characteristic of jutsu. When seeing jutsu for the first time, it is extremely difficult to avoid. In one-on-one combat, its effectiveness is tremendous. One of Kakashi’s pride, a fast attack Ninjutsu that guarantees victory.

Depending on the amount of chakra cast on it, the speed and range of the jutsu can be adjusted. If the enemy receives the blow directly, his movements are stopped…!!

Lightning Release: Black Panther (Raiton: Kuropansa)
Ninjutsu, B-rank, Offensive, Close to mid range
User(s): Darui
Heavy thunder gathers and charges at the enemy as a jet-black panther!!

By concentrating the myriad of lightning that’s released from the body, a black panther is created. Thunder resounds like a roar that rips the ears, attacking enemies one after another. The non-stop continuous attack is annihilating the enemy’s troups in the blink of an eye. That speed is certainly like a lightning flash…!!

Although it’s a rare Ninjutsu in the vast ninja world, those who can handle it are few, including Darui. The future of those caught by the movement stealing black lightning is two syllables: Defeat…!!

With water as an intermediary, the lightning is instantly spread out!! Making the best use of the electric current’s power by covering a range many times the normal range, a wide area of enemies can be shocked in an instant.

Additionally, as long as an attack is electricity flying in the air and fulfils the criteria (which all raiton do) it should be lightning speed. According to DT:

Electricity flowing through air is lightning.
Our standards are pretty clear that things don't need to be cloud-to-ground lightning to qualify (given, there are qualifiers that need to be fulfilled). Whether or not the word "lightning" is used to describe it doesn't really matter. We don't rank things by what they're called, but by what they are, and there is no real difference between electricity flowing through air called lightning and electricity flowing through air called something else.

Whether it's in the shape of a lightning bolt or not doesn't really matter.

 

[UchihaSlayer96]

Yeah, this would definitely give us more feats to calc, instead of having to rely predominantly on Kakashi's feat against False Darkness.

Anyway, this makes sense to me and I agree given DT's comment.

 

[UchihaSlayer96]

Btw, can you link that DT comment? Might be nice to link it in the OP as well, just to be on the safe side.

 

[Nierre]

Common Testarossa W

 

[Testarossa002]

Btw, can you link that DT comment? Might be nice to link it in the OP as well, just to be on the safe side.

Post in thread 'Have we picked an electricity standard?' https://vsbattles.com/threads/have-we-picked-an-electricity-standard.164935/post-6393460


Added to the OP

 

[KingTempest]

The shape of it actually does matter, as the shape of lightning scaling to lightning bolts is something that's strict in many verses

Things DT mean are like when people blast lightning bolts out or bolts of electricity, so it doesn't need to be natural, it just needs to be electricity that heats the air and passes through it, but it still resembles lightning bolts, which is why it qualifies as lightning. It's like that because people used to make stupid arguments like "it's not a lightning bolt, it's just electricity", then they look like this

DT's comment definitely isn't talking about any speed, it's just saying "it's lightning", in contrast to the people who say "it's not lightning, it's electricity" to stuff like Denki Kaminari, Nine, Pikachu, or Kashimo, but it's not accepting it as lightning speed

This doesn't do that. These materialize lightning creatures and guide them at varying speeds.

The lightning fang can even vary in speed depending on the amount of chakra in it, stated in the databook quoted in the OP.

Things we see that have different shapes that don't move at the speed of lightning is stuff like kirin, which moves at lightspeed.

I don't think this is wise to say "it's lightning, and although it doesn't move anything like how lightning moves, it still moves the same speeds", especially for things that have very weird paths different from what lightning has. We've always took things like the shape into consideration and it was huge disqualifiers to lightning attacks not shaped like lightning bolts

 

[UchihaSlayer96]

Is DT still away? If he's back, we can just ping and ask him directly.

 

[KingTempest]

Also

That speed is certainly like a lightning flash…!!

This doesn't support lightning speed. A flash of lightning moves at lightspeed

 

[KingTempest]

Is DT still away? If he's back, we can just ping and ask him directly.

I have no idea, says he was here Sunday but he never spoke since his break.

I'll ping him
@DontTalkDT

But if he doesn't answer, I'm fine if there's any concensus prior to his return. Worst case scenario we just ask him when he gets back

 

[KLOL506]

I have no idea, says he was here Sunday but he never spoke since his break.

I'll ping him
@DontTalkDT

But if he doesn't answer, I'm fine if there's any concensus prior to his return. Worst case scenario we just ask him when he gets back

DT already said there's no point in waiting two whole months for him, we're on our own.

 

[KingTempest]

DT already said there's no point in waiting two whole months for him, we're on our own.

daaaaaang

 

[Nierre]

Neutral on Black Panther but disagree with Lightning Beast.

The Databook entry for Lightning Beast doesn't support lightning speed at all. All the bolded part says is that it's able to catch opponents from far away due to its speed, but it needs to be way more explicit than just "this jutsu moves fast" for us to even use it.

Neutral on DT's statement as well FRA

 

[Daoist_Pepe]

Additionally, as long as an attack is electricity flying in the air and fulfils the criteria (which all raiton do) it should be lightning speed. According to DT:

I think you should add DT second's quote to your OP too(for clarification) because the one you posted only states that there is no difference between Lightning and electricity flowing through air. The second quote emphasizes that electricity that flows through air and demonstrates properties of realistic electricity does move at lightning speed.
Here's the quote:

All electricity that flows through the air, has demonstrated a number of properties of realistic electricity (and not many contradicting properties) and carries an energy of at least 1.6 billion Joules or a voltage of at least 100 million volts, to have somewhat comparable parameters to lightning, is considered to move lightning speed.

Anyway nice work. I am iffy on Kakashi's beast fang based on KT reasons.

 

[Testarossa002]

The shape of it actually does matter, as the shape of lightning scaling to lightning bolts is something that's strict in many verses

I don't really want to get technical here but nothing on the lightning feats page insinuates anything about shape of attack being qualifiers or disqualifiers

This doesn't do that. These materialize lightning creatures and guide them at varying speeds.

I'd like to think of it as lightning bolts but in a different shape
Lightning bolts by appearance are jagged streaks of electricity
Which these are

The lightning fang can even vary in speed depending on the amount of chakra in it, stated in the databook quoted in the OP.

I mean, same can be said of any other lighting jutsu
Or jutsus in general
We just have to apply context to the feats.
it's not like Kakashi would would be holding back the speed of the attack against Pain

Things we see that have different shapes that don't move at the speed of lightning is stuff like kirin, which moves at lightspeed.

We also have instances of regular shaped lightning to exceed the speed of lightning
I doubt Current Boruto is dishing out raiton attacks at the speed of lightning.
But we can make that assumption when we want to calc feats
Which is my suggestion here
A default assumption

Also

This doesn't support lightning speed. A flash of lightning moves at lightspeed

1. It's not to support lightning speed but to support that it's renowned for its speed
2. I really doubt that will fly here. Something something simile. Lariat was rejected due to a similar statement (speed like light)

Neutral on Black Panther but disagree with Lightning Beast.

The Databook entry for Lightning Beast doesn't support lightning speed at all. All the bolded part says is that it's able to catch opponents from far away due to its speed, but it needs to be way more explicit than just "this jutsu moves fast" for us to even use it.

NeThestral on DT's statement as well FRA

Same as above
It's not to support lightning speed
It's to support its speed based nature

---

These are all valid concerns and i totally understand the place they are coming from

 

[Testarossa002]

Bump

 

[karo_senpaii]

Making this now so that it may be incorporated into the Speed Scaling for Part 2. If there's any useful feat to calc and all
Please do not bring up anything relating to Kirin here. I have an inkling it's going to be revised soon anyways.

So this

Naruto Elements: Raiton

vsbattles.fandom.com

This blog is all well and good except for one small part


The bolded part seems like an arbitrary cut-off point.
The two examples cited even have implications of being speed based




Additionally, as long as an attack is electricity flying in the air and fulfils the criteria (which all raiton do) it should be lightning speed. According to DT:


Whether it's in the shape of a lightning bolt or not doesn't really matter.

I agree with black panther but the first jutsu is kind of iffy.
A jutsu designed for pursuit doesn't necessarily need to be that fast as it tracks the opponent and follows it so it's not a matter of dodging. And like the last line that the speed of the jutsu depends on the chakra input means there is no even baseline we can give it. Unless you're saying it's already lightning speed but kakashi can always alter it to go faster

 

[Testarossa002]

I agree with black panther but the first jutsu is kind of iffy.
A jutsu designed for pursuit doesn't necessarily need to be that fast as it tracks the opponent and follows it so it's not a matter of dodging. And like the last line that the speed of the jutsu depends on the chakra input means there is no even baseline we can give it. Unless you're saying it's already lightning speed but kakashi can always alter it to go faster

I mean, same can be said of any other lighting jutsu
Or jutsus in general
We just have to apply context to the feats.
it's not like Kakashi would would be holding back the speed of the attack against Pain

 

[karo_senpaii]

True but you have to remember kakashi was also saving his chakra. Not To mention he was analysing. He just wanted to see I the difference jutsu would work. And it's a tracking jutsu like a homing missiles. It doesn't have to be unavoidable in speed

 

[Daoist_Pepe]

BUMP

Don't tell me we are all waiting for DT even after we have this from him:

All electricity that flows through the air, has demonstrated a number of properties of realistic electricity (and not many contradicting properties) and carries an energy of at least 1.6 billion Joules or a voltage of at least 100 million volts, to have somewhat comparable parameters to lightning, is considered to move lightning speed.

Seems pretty clear to me, the only disqualifier is Kakashi's beast fang because it is stated he materializes it. Lightning is not a material susbstance.
Y'all seem to be focusing on the fact its speed varies although that isn't even what disqualifies it.

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

Seems reasonable, but yeah DT is going to be super busy.

 

[DontTalkDT]

Alright, this thread gets the honour of getting the one and only comment I will write in my two-month absence period, because it bothers my how my quote is used. Ironically, I'm fairly sure I was part of the people who rejected that lightning animal jutsu being lightning speed in a past thread.

To be very clear: I'm not back. I will leave this comment and then you won't see me comment again for the next month. So I will leave any decision to other staff, don't even count my vote, I just don't want my word to be misinterpreted.

The shape of it actually does matter, as the shape of lightning scaling to lightning bolts is something that's strict in many verses

Things DT mean are like when people blast lightning bolts out or bolts of electricity, so it doesn't need to be natural, it just needs to be electricity that heats the air and passes through it, but it still resembles lightning bolts, which is why it qualifies as lightning. It's like that because people used to make stupid arguments like "it's not a lightning bolt, it's just electricity", then they look like this

DT's comment definitely isn't talking about any speed, it's just saying "it's lightning", in contrast to the people who say "it's not lightning, it's electricity" to stuff like Denki Kaminari, Nine, Pikachu, or Kashimo, but it's not accepting it as lightning speed

This doesn't do that. These materialize lightning creatures and guide them at varying speeds.

The lightning fang can even vary in speed depending on the amount of chakra in it, stated in the databook quoted in the OP.

Things we see that have different shapes that don't move at the speed of lightning is stuff like kirin, which moves at lightspeed.

I don't think this is wise to say "it's lightning, and although it doesn't move anything like how lightning moves, it still moves the same speeds", especially for things that have very weird paths different from what lightning has. We've always took things like the shape into consideration and it was huge disqualifiers to lightning attacks not shaped like lightning bolts

^He's right. Literally same thread that quote of me in the OP came from I also said:

All electricity that flows through the air, has demonstrated a number of properties of realistic electricity (and not many contradicting properties) and carries an energy of at least 1.6 billion Joules or a voltage of at least 100 million volts, to have somewhat comparable parameters to lightning, is considered to move lightning speed.

Speed dependent on chakra, instead of physical constants, and confined to running animal shapes are contradicting to assuming that the speed is determined by the lightning characteristic physical constants.
If other staff thinks that the evidence in favor is so strong that it overrules those contradictions then fine. But they need to be taken into account.

 

[KingTempest]

Alright, this thread gets the honour of getting the one and only comment I will write in my two-month absence period, because it bothers my how my quote is used. Ironically, I'm fairly sure I was part of the people who rejected that lightning animal jutsu being lightning speed in a past thread.

To be very clear: I'm not back. I will leave this comment and then you won't see me comment again for the next month. So I will leave any decision to other staff, I just don't want my word to be misinterpreted.

^He's right. Literally same thread that quote of me in the OP came from I also said:

Speed dependent on chakra, instead of physical constants, and confined to running animal shapes are contradicting to assuming that the speed is determined by the lightning characteristic physical constants.
If other staff thinks that the evidence in favor is so strong that it overrules those contradictions then fine. But they need to be taken into account.

Thank you, enjoy your break

 

[Testarossa002]

Alright, this thread gets the honour of getting the one and only comment I will write in my two-month absence period, because it bothers my how my quote is used. Ironically, I'm fairly sure I was part of the people who rejected that lightning animal jutsu being lightning speed in a past thread.

To be very clear: I'm not back. I will leave this comment and then you won't see me comment again for the next month. So I will leave any decision to other staff, don't even count my vote, I just don't want my word to be misinterpreted.

^He's right. Literally same thread that quote of me in the OP came from I also said:

Speed dependent on chakra, instead of physical constants, and confined to running animal shapes are contradicting to assuming that the speed is determined by the lightning characteristic physical constants.
If other staff thinks that the evidence in favor is so strong that it overrules those contradictions then fine. But they need to be taken into account.

Welp
Worth a try
Darui's attacks don't fall under the whole chakra and running animals stuff but nobody actually evades it or anything worth a calc. So it doesn't even matter anymore
Not really interested in pursuing this anymore so this can be closed

 

[KingTempest]

Closing then