Undertale: Photoshop Flowey-sized Revision

[StrymULTRA]

Greetings! Finally my (kinda deserved ngl) Topic Ban is gone. Meaning that I could use this month to think better about what to do about the Undertale pages, and I have been preparing a lot. So be prepared, because each point I'll make will be short and straighfoward enough in my opinion.

This CRT is shorter than it looks, don't be scared from the multiple parts, because all of them are really short.

Chara's new profile + Frisk Possession Stuff

In the previous CRT (which is dead af, by the way) I have been listing evidence about Chara needing a new key because of them possessing Frisk during the Genocide Route.

I'd like to add as evidence that other than Flowey recognizing Frisk as Chara from the start unlike in the Pacifist Route and the fact that the narration is replaced from Chara's 1st person dialogue, that, based on these blogs (1 and 2) which I recommend you to read given how in detail they are that:

• Chara guides the player through the Genocide route, examples are them saying "N monsters left" per area, or even stopping us at Waterfall if we forget some monsters to kill, or also giving us information on where to get weapons.
• Chara collaborating with the Player in order to resurrect through gaining LV, and even using the "we" as in plural to mention that Chara killed all the monsters alongside us in the Genocide, right to gain power to come back to life. This is why when we abort a Genocide, Chara leaves us, because the collaboration we and Chara had ended the moment we failed to complete said Genocide.

This is the new profile Chara gets and it has some changes too:

• Their intelligence should be changed to Unknown, when they have poisoned Asgore they were still a kid despite being a weirdo at the time, and they are obviously much smarter than since, given their fighting skills and their comprehension of how the game world works. However, we still don't know much about their personality given their extremely limited screen time across all the game, so their intelligence should be Unknown, because we cannot make a coherent IQ rating on them.
• They have obviosuly the new Key when they possess Frisk, and all the feats Frisk has in the Genocide Route rn should be removed and simply be changed to Chara.

Lifting Strength stuff

Papyrus' current LS rating simply sucks ass because he does not lift the bones like the calculation says but just pushes them on the ground, thus friction is involved.

Meaning that Sans' TK, Papyrus, Undyne, Toriel and Asgore will be changed to 52766.71 N (Class 10).

But there is more!

Photoshop Flowey, as said already in his profile, has overpowered with pure physical strength and restrained at the same time Sans, Alphys, Undyne, Papyrus, Toriel and Asgore.

Given the latter 4 scale to Class 10, Photoshop Flowey should get a x4 multiplier, meaning he'd be 211066.84 N, which is Class 25 or really damn close to Class 50. Given he did the feat really casually, maybe he can simply just be Class 50 here.

His Asriel Dreemurr key, because of this, should simply be Class 50 because of upscaling, but not just that, and here is where the things get controversial.

Considering that the Human SOULs boost seem to increase also the Lifting Strength, given that Flowey became from "Unknown" to Class 25/50, Asriel should be an "At least Class 50, possibly Infinite", because of him literally getting an infinite power boost from the gap between 7 and 6 SOULs, so him getting even an infinite boost even in pure physicals is not that far fetched.

Downgrade to 9-A

Honestly, the 9-A+ used from MTT EX calc does not work, because it's simple leg-shaped bullets that instead of being distant, they're used closely, and it ignores that Frisk still gets the damage they'd get from a single leg. Plus Danmaku does not work in this way, because it's still many bullets used each with the same AP of the individual who uses the, we do not give to characters higher ratings just because they have multiple limbs and can use them at the same time, thus multiplying their AP, we give tiers based on the power of a single blow.

What does it mean? That everyone becomes 9-A and the 8-Cs will simply upscale from the 0.04476 Tons value.

Monster Physiology

I have been preparing a Monster Physiology page, covering everything that monsters have, and I have covered 3 types of monsters other than baseline ones, those being Amalgamates, Ghosts and Boss Monsters:

I've added some things and changed wordings to others already accepted but I am too lazy to list them all lol.

Additions of info to Flowey and the Player

Flowey's scans of him lacking a SOUL are ass indeed.

Thankfully I have listed some stuff.

His SOUL has combined with Chara's, before dying, making the the former collapsing into dust and his soul disappearing, with Alphys and himself saying lots of times that he lacks a SOUL.

The Player on the other hand has still multiple complaints about their actual existence in Undertale, but I have made a note to add to their profile in order to close all the doubts about their existence, which is clear evident in also Undertale and not just Deltarune.

DETERMINATION should act as a layered Power Nullification + 2-B Frisk

Basically, everyone knows the deal. Higher or equal amounts of DT can nullify one's ability to SAVE and LOAD, as shown with:

• Flowey being unable to SAVE and LOAD after that Frisk/Chara came to the underground because of him having lesser DT.
• Photoshop Flowey making Frisk unable to use their SAVE and LOAD after that he got the power of 6 SOULs.
• Peak Frisk and Asriel each being unable to use SAVE and LOAD because of their DT amount being equal.

This should work like Dragon Ball layers of resistance to Hit Time Skip, and to go as conservative as I can, in order to not make this a weakness of DT, nor a "no one can nullify Frisk because they do not have the UT Determination". I'll do a similar thing to how Hit stuff is handled here, this time not using Time Stop, but against Time Travel/Rewind and Power Nullification:

• Flowey: Baseline
• Normal Frisk: 1 layer above baseline
• Immense DT Frisk: 2 layers (has the full power of a Human SOUL, so they should be a layer above for the same reason Flowey is)
• Photoshop Flowey: 3 or 7 layers (has the power of 6 SOULs, which is why he was so superior to Frisk. If SOULs = Layers isn't enough, then is 3 layers)
• Asriel Dreemurr / Peak DT Frisk / The Player / Absolute Chara: 4 or 8 layers (because of the Player being able to use a TRUE RESET, and Asriel planning to use it, meaning he got a level of DT higher than his Photoshop Flowey self)

Frisk, because of this, in their peak DT Self, should also get a "2-B through a TRUE RESET", because of their DT being high enough to rival Asriel's and the other God Tiers.

Frisk gets a speed downgrade

This is not attacking any rating, but more a scaling on their profile.

even higher with Immense Determination (Could keep up with Photoshop Flowey's rain of attacks)

Issue though it's that Flowey's justification is:

At least Hypersonic, likely higher (Kept up with a Frisk who defeated Asgore and could repeatedly blitz Frisk when not holding back at the end of their fight)

This is literally just circular scaling. Frisk was literally blitzed multiple times from a non-serious Flowey and unlike in the Asriel fight, they have 0 reasons to get a speed increase against Flowey. Yeet that "even higher" and we're good.

Now I think I am done here.

TLDR

In short:

• Chara gets a new key for when they have possessed Frisk in Genocide and an Unknown in intelligence
• Class 25 LS becomes Class 10, with Photoshop Flowey being >x4 that ans Asriel being even a "possibly Infinite"
• 9-A+ and 8-C become 9-A
• Flowey gets more scans to him lacking a SOUL
• The Player gets more info about their existence as a note
• Monsters get a physiology page
• DETERMINATION becomes a layered hax which is a combo between Time Travel/Rewind and Power Null
• Frisk gets a "2-B via TRUE RESET"

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

Looks good.

 

[Phsccarvalho]

Shouldn't nullification of power be limited? The guy who has the most determination is the one who controls the power of SAVE and LOAD. It's just the mechanics.

It's like when Flowey lost all his ability to SAVE and LOAD when frisk appeared. Would we give her power nullification? I don't think that even nullification of power would be since it's the mechanics of that power.

 

[StrymULTRA]

Shouldn't nullification of power be limited? The guy who has the most determination is the one who controls the power of SAVE and LOAD. It's just the mechanics.

It's like when Flowey lost all his ability to SAVE and LOAD when frisk appeared. Would we give her power nullification? I don't think that even nullification of power would be since it's the mechanics of that power.

Right because they take the control of the timeline that it's a hax feat than a weakness. Because they have more Determination, thus a feat instead of an anti feat, given that the TRUE RESET is straight up for gaining DT.

Plus it's like Ki in Dragon Ball, we're gonna use only the layers which are shown instead of getting to the NLF route.

 

[Shmooply]

Looks good to me bossman.

 

[Psychomaster35]

Looks good to me as well

 

[Greatsage13th]

I agree

 

[The_Yellow_Topaz]

Unlucky.

I agree with:
Chara New Profile
Papyrus' New Lifting Strength
I agree with "Possibly Infinite" for Asriel
I agree with 9-A downgrade, I vouched for it.
I agree with the rest.

I disagree with:
Flowey getting the combined LS of all monsters he restrained.
I completely disagree with Power Nullification, that's just sugar coating the weakness Determination has and turning into an ability that applies to no one other than DT Users.
And I disagree with 2-B Frisk through True Reset. I agree that they can affect the multiverse, I just don't think it should be indexed as AP.

At least add "Enviromental Destruction" too, it's not potency and can't be used offensively.

I'll elaborate on my disagreements further along. I need to charge my stuff.​

 

[StrymULTRA]

I completely disagree with Power Nullification, that's just sugar coating the weakness Determination has and turning into an ability that applies to no one other than DT Users.

Dude how are you gonna explain in threads how that works with other verses' time abilities then? We can't just assume they work the same or that the DT user gets overpowered just because lol.

Again, it's like Dragon Ball ki in this case, they literally overpower the user's time hax with their own.

And I disagree with 2-B Frisk through True Reset. I agree that they can affect the multiverse, I just don't think it should be indexed as AP.

Tbh Chara used the TRUE RESET to restore the multiverse, so it still counts as AP. You don't need to destroy a thing, just significantly affect it to the point it's comparable to creation/destruction.

 

[Phsccarvalho]

Right because they take the control of the timeline that it's a hax feat than a weakness. Because they have more Determination, thus a feat instead of an anti feat, given that the TRUE RESET is straight up for gaining DT.

Plus it's like Ki in Dragon Ball, we're gonna use only the layers which are shown instead of getting to the NLF route.

That's what I'm talking about. All this power is only "given" to the guy who has the most determination. It is the mechanics of power. Do you want to use hit? I don't think we give time stop resistance to goku from the manga (something that had a recent crt trying to change that) because the hit ability was said not to work on guys stronger than him. And the other thing about the hit is totally different. One is resistance the other is power nullification. Goku gained resistance getting stronger because of db logic (and in the anime the same is not said in the manga).

Nobody annulled frisk's power, her power only went to the guy who has the most determination because of the logic of the power of only having one who can use it, who has the most determination.

Again. By the logic of justifying the nullification of Omega Flowey's power, why don't we give the same to Frisk? When Frisk arrived flowey couldn't use SAVE or LOAD. In that logic, Frisk should have power nullification.

 

[StrymULTRA]

That's what I'm talking about. All this power is only "given" to the guy who has the most determination. It is the mechanics of power. Do you want to use hit? I don't think we give time stop resistance to goku from the manga (something that had a recent crt trying to change that) because the hit ability was said not to work on guys stronger than him. And the other thing about the hit is totally different. One is resistance the other is power nullification. Goku gained resistance getting stronger because of db logic (and in the anime the same is not said in the manga).

No idea, the CRTs has Goku having resistance and he still has that, so... Though I made it only as an example.

Nobody annulled frisk's power, her power only went to the guy who has the most determination because of the logic of the power of only having one who can use it, who has the most determination.

Frisk nor Flowey do not lose Determination like you're implying. They're still aware of the RESETs and can use the other powers related to it, just not SAVE and LOAD. Ergo their power gets nulled, not taken away.

Again. By the logic of justifying the nullification of Omega Flowey's power, why don't we give the same to Frisk? When Frisk arrived flowey couldn't use SAVE or LOAD. In that logic, Frisk should have power nullification.

...I literally am doing that bud. Base Flowey is baseline and Normal DT Frisk a layer above that.

 

[The_Yellow_Topaz]

Dude how are you gonna explain in threads how that works with other verses' time abilities then? We can't just assume they work the same or that the DT user gets overpowered just because lol.

Again, it's like Dragon Ball ki in this case, they literally overpower the user's time hax with their own.

"Whoever has the most DT controls the timeline", if you argue it's Dragon Ball like, you can't argue for layers mate, it's attatched to a level, in DB's case, a level of power, in this one, a level of will. You can't just stack layers on top of each other in cases like that, otherwise Dragon Ball would have like, 30 layers on every hax.

You also can't say Determination could null time hax that's coming from a completely different source, DT hax nulls DT hax because that's how the power works, it's the weakness of said set of powers. That's the equivalent of saying Goku could overpower someone else's time stop from a different show, when it's Hit's weakness that his powers are surpassed by sheer energy.

Tbh Chara used the TRUE RESET to restore the multiverse, so it still counts as AP. You don't need to destroy a thing, just significantly affect it to the point it's comparable to creation/destruction.

Chara is 2-B on their own, you cannot claim Frisk would be able to do the same. This should really just stay as a hax or enviromental destruction, as they cannot cause harm to an actual 2-B durability character in any way.

 

[Phsccarvalho]

Right because they take the control of the timeline that it's a hax feat than a weakness. Because they have more Determination, thus a feat instead of an anti feat, given that the TRUE RESET is straight up for gaining DT.

Plus it's like Ki in Dragon Ball, we're gonna use only the layers which are shown instead of getting to the NLF route.

The difference is that the DT has the mechanic that only those with more determination can use the SAVE and LOAD powers.

You even mention it.

• Flowey being unable to SAVE and LOAD after that Frisk/Chara came to the underground because of him having lesser DT.
• Photoshop Flowey making Frisk unable to use their SAVE and LOAD after that he got the power of 6 SOULs.
• Peak Frisk and Asriel each being unable to use SAVE and LOAD because of their DT amount being equal.

The KI besides being something much more comprehensive. There is no such explicit mechanic.

And it's not even the same thing, they gain resistance and don't nullify the opponent's power.

Frisk nor Flowey do not lose Determination like you're implying. They're still aware of the RESETs and can use the other powers related to it, just not SAVE and LOAD.

Exactly, they literally cannot use their main powers. They are still aware of the resets, but completely inhibited from using their related powers.

Sans who don't even have determination are aware of this, so it's not exclusive.

...I literally am doing that bud. Flowey is baseline and Normal DT Frisk a layer above that.

What shouldn't. It's just the mechanics of the DT.

Who can use the powers of SAVE and LOAD is the one with the most determination. This isn't power nullification, it's power mechanics. Only those with more determination can use it, this is not nullifying. Even if it were, as I said, it should be limited since it would only "nullify" an extremely specific power.

 

[StrymULTRA]

"Whoever has the most DT controls the timeline", if you argue it's Dragon Ball like, you can't argue for layers mate, it's attatched to a level, in DB's case, a level of power, in this one, a level of will. You can't just stack layers on top of each other in cases like that, otherwise Dragon Ball would have like, 30 layers on every hax.

Dragon Ball uses only the layers showcased, iirc Goku has only 2/3 layers here. I'm trying to use in the same way.

Plus DT IS also power, Flowey gets more DT from "just" absorbing 6 SOULs, and SOUL boost is just a power one, meaning that power and will in Undertale increase the same (otherwise Frisk wouldn't get more power at all).

You also can't say Determination could null time hax that's coming from a completely different source, DT hax nulls DT hax because that's how the power works, it's the weakness of said set of powers. That's the equivalent of saying Goku could overpower someone else's time stop from a different show, when it's Hit's weakness that his powers are surpassed by sheer energy.

Verse equalization exists. And yes Goku is assumed to do that, you didn't see those Jojo vs DB threads mate.

Chara is 2-B on their own, you cannot claim Frisk would be able to do the same. This should really just stay as a hax or enviromental destruction, as they cannot cause harm to an actual 2-B durability character in any way.

Whatever then. It would be listed as Environmental Destruction if truly necessary.

The difference is that the DT has the mechanic that only those with more determination can use the SAVE and LOAD powers.

You even mention it.
The KI besides being something much more comprehensive. There is no such explicit mechanic.

And it's not even the same thing, they gain resistance and don't nullify the opponent's power.

They actually do. Frisk and Asriel were pretty much nullifying each other in their fight right because their DT was equal. Asriel explicitly needed to make Frisk give up otherwise he couldn't use it.

Exactly, they literally cannot use their main powers. They are still aware of the resets, but completely inhibited from using their related powers.

Sans who don't even have determination are aware of this, so it's not exclusive.

Sans doesn't remember RESETs like Flowey does, he's just aware, so moot point.

What shouldn't. It's just the mechanics of the DT.

Who can use the powers of SAVE and LOAD is the one with the most determination. This isn't power nullification, it's power mechanics. Only those with more determination can use it, this is not nullifying. Even if it were, as I said, it should be limited since it would only "nullify" an extremely specific power.

This is why I said it would work only against Power Null AND Time Travel/Rewind, because verse equalization exists.

 

[Phsccarvalho]

They actually do. Frisk and Asriel were pretty much nullifying each other in their fight right because their DT was equal. Asriel explicitly needed to make Frisk give up otherwise he couldn't use it.

Yes, because DT mechanics. Only one can use this power of SAVE and LOAD, which is the one with the most determination.

Sans doesn't remember RESETs like Flowey does, he's just aware, so moot point.

This goes to show that being aware of other timelines is not something exclusive to determination.

This is why I said it would work only against Power Null AND Time Travel/Rewind, because verse equalization exists.

What would make no sense, users of DT temporal powers only affect others because of the determination mechanic thing. So even if it really was power nullification, it would be limited, as most likely the determination wouldn't have much to do with other sources of power.

And besides, verse equalization only works on powers that are very close in concept.

It doesn't equalize for example magic with ki. Or something like that.

So even in that scenario, it would be limited as it wouldn't go into all kinds of existing power sources.

 

[The_Yellow_Topaz]

Dragon Ball uses only the layers showcased, iirc Goku has only 2/3 layers here. I'm trying to use in the same way.

Plus DT IS also power, Flowey gets more DT from "just" absorbing 6 SOULs, and SOUL boost is just a power one, meaning that power and will in Undertale increase the same (otherwise Frisk wouldn't get more power at all).

That's because Determination is Soul Power as well. "Whoever gets the most Soul Power controls the timeline". This is truly only appliable to Determination users, and you can't really use verse equalization to such specific power system, unfortunately.
This would also assume that someone with a determination greater than Frisk's would suddenly get timeline powers in a match against them, which would also grant immortality and etc.
So yeah we can't really apply Undertale's power system to other characters. I really think Power Nullification shouldn't be added at all, and should just be listed as a weakness for Determination users, verse-specific.

 

[StrymULTRA]

Yes, because DT mechanics. Only one can use this power of SAVE and LOAD, which is the one with the most determination.

And DT triumphs over the lower one, it's literally the whole point of the Photoshop Flowey fight.

This goes to show that being aware of other timelines is not something exclusive to determination.

Being aware =/= remembering RESETs. The latter is what is achieved through DT.

What would make no sense, users of DT temporal powers only affect others because of the determination mechanic thing. So even if it really was power nullification, it would be limited, as most likely the determination wouldn't have much to do with other sources of power.

And besides, verse equalization only works on powers that are very close in concept.

It doesn't equalize for example magic with ki. Or something like that.

So even in that scenario, it would be limited as it wouldn't go into all kinds of existing power sources.

You see, DT isn't exactly something like Ki or Magic, it's only time power + other stuff.

Meaning that from sheer will people can outdo stuff people with less will can.

If Frisk gets against another verse guy who can time travel like Kira or Celebi, the latter wouldn't be able to because of them lacking feats of opposing others' time hax.

You're using too much of this "low end" interpretation, this stuff is assumed to be feats, not the other way around.

 

[StrymULTRA]

That's because Determination is Soul Power as well. "Whoever gets the most Soul Power controls the timeline". This is truly only appliable to Determination users, and you can't really use verse equalization to such specific power system, unfortunately.

I can indeed. Because at the end it's just a time hax that nulls lesser one.

This would also assume that someone with a determination greater than Frisk's would suddenly get timeline powers in a match against them, which would also grant immortality and etc.

Not really. Because UT determination is different than your average willpower. If their verse DT allows them to do similar stuff to Frisk about time hax, sure then.

Otherwise Frisk just gets the upper hand because of them having actually feats and not just being stubborn.

 

[The_Yellow_Topaz]

I can indeed. Because at the end it's just a time hax that nulls lesser one.

If you just remove all verse-specific mechanics behind it, then your argument would have two legs to stand on. Too bad you can't just oversimplify an argument and ignore most of it's factors to make a point.

It doesn't even need to be power nullification, Power is simply granted to the highest DT user and stripped from the lesser one. If your time hax doesn't work under willpower, it's No-Limits Fallacy to assume Determination could overrule that. Nope.

Not really. Because UT determination is different than your average willpower. If their verse DT allows them to do similar stuff to Frisk about time hax, sure then.

Otherwise Frisk just gets the upper hand because of them having actually feats and not just being stubborn.

We're not granting other show's characters Undertale abilities over having extraordinary frisk-level will power, Strym. Literally listen to yourself.

 

[Phsccarvalho]

And DT triumphs over the lower one, it's literally the whole point of the Photoshop Flowey fight.

And that's why it's the DT mechanic. Whoever has the most TD is the guy who gets the power. No one is nullifying anyone, the power is only going to those with the most DT.

Being aware =/= remembering RESETs. The latter is what is achieved through DT.

Yes, because it does not enter. What is lost are the powers of SAVE and LOAD.

You see, DT isn't exactly something like Ki or Magic, it's only time power + other stuff.

Meaning that from sheer will people can outdo stuff people with less will can.

If Frisk gets against another verse guy who can time travel like Kira or Celebi, the latter wouldn't be able to because of them lacking feats of opposing others' time hax.

You're using too much of this "low end" interpretation, this stuff is assumed to be feats, not the other way around.

No, because Kira's power has nothing to do with DT.

Also, "oppose." It's one thing if Kira couldn't resist Frisk's time powers, it's another thing for his time powers to be totally nullified by something that has nothing to do with him.

Why couldn't he use his powers? Your powers don't come from the DT, so there's no such thing as "whoever has the most determination has the powers and the rest don't"

 

[StrymULTRA]

If you just remove all verse-specific mechanics behind it, then your argument would have two legs to stand on. Too bad you can't just oversimplify an argument and ignore most of it's factors to make a point.

It doesn't even need to be power nullification, Power is simply granted to the highest DT user and stripped from the lesser one. If your time hax doesn't work under willpower, it's No-Limits Fallacy to assume Determination could overrule that. Nope.

Actually you're the one making it complicated for 0 reasons for the sake of being complicated. It's shown to stop the lesser users to get control over the timeline, so we use layers of potency to translate it to other verses matchups.

Easy as that, no need to complicate it.

We're not granting other show's characters Undertale abilities over having extraordinary frisk-level will power, Strym. Literally listen to yourself.

You're forgetting that DT in Undertale is not just personality but a literal substance that is extracted from SOULs and injected in others.

Undertale DT is just built different compared to the other verses.

And that's why it's the DT mechanic. Whoever has the most TD is the guy who gets the power. No one is nullifying anyone, the power is only going to those with the most DT.

Photoshop Flowey fight literally shows him overpowering Frisk's SAVE, so...

No, because Kira's power has nothing to do with DT.

Also, "oppose." It's one thing if Kira couldn't resist Frisk's time powers, it's another thing for his time powers to be totally nullified by something that has nothing to do with him.

Why couldn't he use his powers? Your powers don't come from the DT, so there's no such thing as "whoever has the most determination has the powers and the rest don't"

Because of layers of potency given through verse equalization. DT gives to the strongest amount of DT the control over the timeline, so why would Frisk allow Kira to get control over it? In Undertale it's either one or none, not two at the same time.

 

[Phsccarvalho]

Actually you're the one making it complicated for 0 reasons for the sake of being complicated. It's shown to stop the lesser users to get control over the timeline, so we use layers of potency to translate it to other verses matchups.

Easy as that, no need to complicate it.

It stops others because the power goes to those who have the most determination. It is a logic of the power of the verse.

Photoshop Flowey fight literally shows him overpowering Frisk's SAVE, so...

Guess why? Because he had more determination, because that's how that power works in the verse.

It is explicitly shown that these powers can only be used by those with the most determination.

It's not a power nullification, it's simply a power mechanic. That only the most determined user can use these time powers of determination powers.

 

[Phsccarvalho]

Because of layers of potency given through verse equalization. DT gives to the strongest amount of DT the control over the timeline, so why would Frisk allow Kira to get control over it? In Undertale it's either one or none, not two at the same time.

Because Kira Kira's powers don't come from determination or a similar source of power for the verse equalization to work.

In undertale, only the user with the most DT out of the DT users can use the DT's time powers.

 

[Eden_Warlock99]

Looks good, but Peak Frisk gotta be fully 2-B

 

[StrymULTRA]

Guess why? Because he had more determination, because that's how that power works in the verse.

It is explicitly shown that these powers can only be used by those with the most determination.

It's not a power nullification, it's simply a power mechanic. That only the most determined user can use these time powers of determination powers.

He overpowered Frisk's hax using his more potent one kek. That's the whole thing.

A power mechanic that allows power null over the weaker one.

Because Kira Kira's powers don't come from determination or a similar source of power for the verse equalization to work.

In undertale, only the user with the most DT out of the DT users can use the DT's time powers.

No dude. I already said that layered hax can counter Undertale's. If someone has showcases more layers in nulling time hax, then they stop DT, if they have less layers they don't.

Looks good, but Peak Frisk gotta be fully 2-B

 

[ShionAH]

Neutral

 

[StrymULTRA]

Neutral

On what

 

[ShionAH]

On what

Everything expect monster phsiology. I agree on that

 

[The_Yellow_Topaz]

Actually you're the one making it complicated for 0 reasons for the sake of being complicated. It's shown to stop the lesser users to get control over the timeline, so we use layers of potency to translate it to other verses matchups.

Easy as that, no need to complicate it.

There's no way you actually think this is the easy way

"Stronger in-verse substance = control over the timeline. Applies only to in-verse stuff"
vs
"Any time hax in the presence of DT users gets automatically shut down, since we can't quantify willpower, we do layers that work no matter the condition, bypassing resistances (something UT doesn't do)"

Strym, no one is that out of their mind​

You're forgetting that DT in Undertale is not just personality but a literal substance that is extracted from SOULs and injected in others.

Undertale DT is just built different compared to the other verses.

Oh so it's a fictional substance that ONLY EXISTS IN UNDERTALE?

Wow, thanks for laying it out exactly why it shouldn't be equalized to other soul-having or willpower having verses, this is EXTREMELY specific to the verse, and it's far from being qualifiable to "UES"

We're not equalizing Determination to any other regular willpower from other verses, and it's effects on other Determination users is a quirk of it's own power system, not a rule that apply to other universes.

 

[StrymULTRA]

"Any time hax in the presence of DT users gets automatically shut down, since we can't quantify willpower, we do layers that work no matter the condition, bypassing resistances (something UT doesn't do)"

Strym, no one is that out of their mind

Strawmanning me to get a shot huh? I said we use layers to quantify this, not that UT time hax >>> non UT.

We're not equalizing Determination to any other regular willpower from other verses, and it's effects on other Determination users is a quirk of it's own power system, not a rule that apply to other universes.

Again, layers. If a verse has feats of nulling time hax using layers, then it's comparable. If not, adios.

Easy as that.

Do not make ne repeat myself.

Edit: Also because verse equalization's very thing is to equalize verse mechanic to compatible ones. If a character who can time travel encounters Frisk, they can't do it anymore without feats.

 

[The_Yellow_Topaz]

Strawmanning me to get a shot huh? I said we use layers to quantify this, not that UT time hax >>> non UT.

Again, layers. If a verse has feats of nulling time hax using layers, then it's comparable. If not, adios.

Easy as that.

Do not make ne repeat myself.

Edit: Also because verse equalization's very thing is to equalize verse mechanic to compatible ones. If a character who can time travel encounters Frisk, they can't do it anymore without feats.

You can't use layers to something that is not dependent on baseline levels of hax, the power isn't based around layers, it's potency. If you have more will to live, you get the time powers from someone else's DT. That doesn't give you a resistence, Strym. You don't now resist Power Null, because the smaller Determination isn't even having that effect on you, so when they take it back they're not bypassing any sort of resistence, so there's no layers being crossed.
Like actually, that makes no sense.

You also can't equalize sources that are too different, there isn't a single one verse that has a mechanic similar to Undertale.

 

[StrymULTRA]

You can't use layers to something that is not dependent on baseline levels of hax

Flowey.

the power isn't based around layers, it's potency.

Literally the same thing.

If you have more will to live, you get the time powers from someone else's DT.

Via Power Null via Willpower.

You don't now resist Power Null, because the smaller Determination isn't even having that effect on you, so when they take it back they're not bypassing any sort of resistence, so there's no layers being crossed.

Actually there is, as I already have explained above, you're just saying "no it's not because I say no" in a long way.

You also can't equalize sources that are too different, there isn't a single one verse that has a mechanic similar to Undertale.

Then it's a problem of the verse, not Undertale being too strong to qualify.

Besides, power null against time based abilities works as I said, as long as it has enough layers. Dialga is an example that comes into mind.

 

[The_Yellow_Topaz]

Literally the same thing.

It's not.
I'm actively debating a dude who has NO IDEA what a layered hax even is. A hax based on potency cannot be layered based STRICTLY on said potency. Electricity Manipulation is a major example of this, and the simplest since we can measure it in three-dimensional energy. No, if you just resist electricity manipulation based on it's potency, like resisting 100 million volts, and then someone comes with 300 million volts and actually hits you, their electricity manipulation IS NOT LAYERED. That's not how it works, a Layered Hax is completely unrelated to raw potency, it bypasses any resistance of a previous layer regardless of potency.

It's IMPOSSIBLE.
I M P O S S I B L E.
For you to claim that by simply HAVING higher DT gives you resistance to Power Nullification when all your examples literally show that a greater quantity of DT still overpowers you regardless, and yet you take the ABSURDIST, HIGHER END INTERPRETATION, where instead of just "higher power output = control goes over to me", you pick "Determination is nullifying your powers!!!!"
You can't claim that, because you're NEVER satisfying your burden of proof.

I'm sick of this, I always have a perfectly logical explanation to your terrible takes being factually incorrect and yet you keep this sophism to push your point forward.

Only one person controlling the timeline at a time is a rule of the Undertale universe, not "Power Nullification", you even proved that DT gives other abilities too, yet those are not nullified.

 

[StrymULTRA]

It's not.

Lmao.

I'm actively debating a dude who has NO IDEA what a layered hax even is. A hax based on potency cannot be layered based STRICTLY on said potency. Electricity Manipulation is a major example of this, and the simplest since we can measure it in three-dimensional energy. No, if you just resist electricity manipulation based on it's potency, like resisting 100 million volts, and then someone comes with 300 million volts and actually hits you, their electricity manipulation IS NOT LAYERED. That's not how it works, a Layered Hax is completely unrelated to raw potency, it bypasses any resistance of a previous layer regardless of potency.

This is false equivalence my guy. Unlike DT, Electricity has a measurement. And given we do not have those for DT, then we use layers. Ez as that, exactly like for other haxes like Mind or Concept manip.

For you to claim that by simply HAVING higher DT gives you resistance to Power Nullification when all your examples literally show that a greater quantity of DT still overpowers you regardless, and yet you take the ABSURDIST, HIGHER END INTERPRETATION, where instead of just "higher power output = control goes over to me", you pick "Determination is nullifying your powers!!!!"

Because it's literally how I say? I never say that's resistance, but simply Power Nullification over Power Nullification. What is so hard to get?

I'm sick of this, I always have a perfectly logical explanation to your terrible takes being factually incorrect and yet you keep this sophism to push your point forward.

Maybe because you are overly nitpicky for no reason?

Only one person controlling the timeline at a time is a rule of the Undertale universe, not "Power Nullification", you even proved that DT gives other abilities too, yet those are not nullified.

Actually it's nullified, it's the reason why Asriel had to make Frisk give up, because their DT nulled each other, ergo power null against each other.

 

[The_Yellow_Topaz]

I never say that's resistance, but simply Power Nullification over Power Nullification. What is so hard to get?

Great, then it's not overpowering a resistance to the hax, thus it's not layered.

Thank you for admitting that you're wrong, now let me move on to other stuff.

 

[ImmortalDread]

I agree with Topaz.

 

[The_Yellow_Topaz]

I disagree with:
Flowey getting the combined LS of all monsters he restrained.​

They're not combining their strength to the same place, so it's not additive.
I also feel like I could get something better based on size alone.

Hold onto that thought while I make some calculations.​

 

[Eden_Warlock99]

I am pretty iffy on Asriel having Infinite LS tho
Like infinite AP multipliers in other verses don't affect LS

 

[StrymULTRA]

Great, then it's not overpowering a resistance to the hax, thus it's not layered.

Thank you for admitting that you're wrong, now let me move on to other stuff.

Actually not, because it's Power Null which nulls the weaker Time Manip + the Power Null of the related time hax, stop distorting my words ffs.

I'd like to not have a headache because of staff being misleaded by you.

I am pretty iffy on Asriel having Infinite LS tho
Like infinite AP multipliers in other verses don't affect LS

Hence why "Possibly" here though.

 

[The_Yellow_Topaz]

Actually not, because it's Power Null which nulls the weaker Time Manip + the Power Null of the related time hax, stop distorting my words ffs.

I'd like to not have a headache because of staff being misleaded by you.

I am saying with all my confidence and in all context you may provide that what you describe does not qualify for layered hax.

I'd also like to not have a headache over you pretending like you know how layered hax works, when you don't. I also even argued that it's not power nullification and that's only a headcanon of yours, it doesn't have to be that at all. For the record, by saying that me criticizing your interpretation of what the power would be is nitpicky, claiming that it can only be that power is also equally nitpicky.