Undertale: Photoshop Flowey-sized Revision

[StrymULTRA]

I'd also like to not have a headache over you pretending like you know how layered hax works, when you don't. I also even argued that it's not power nullification and that's only a headcanon of yours, it doesn't have to be that at all. For the record, by saying that me criticizing your interpretation of what the power would be is nitpicky, claiming that it can only be that power is also equally nitpicky.

I mean...

 

[The_Yellow_Topaz]

I mean...

It's undisputedly a quirk of the power system.

 

[StrymULTRA]

It's undisputedly a quirk of the power system.

So you concede it's power nullification against other time travel/rewind? Cool.

 

[The_Yellow_Topaz]

So you concede it's power nullification against other time travel/rewind? Cool.

stop distorting my words ffs.

Hypocrisy at it's finest.

Anyway, this only works with DT-based time abilities, and that's final. Good luck with your future endeavors, though. I will make that Omega Flowey calc whenever I have the time or patience to do so.

 

[StrymULTRA]

Anyway, this only works with DT-based time abilities, and that's final.

I literally said it works only against Time Travel/Rewind for the 30th time at this point lmfao.

 

[LephyrTheRevanchist]

Chill, you two. It's clear you ain't convincing each other. You've laid out your points, wait for staff evaluation.

 

[Roachman40]

Chara's new profile + Frisk Possession Stuff

In the previous CRT (which is dead af, by the way) I have been listing evidence about Chara needing a new key because of them possessing Frisk during the Genocide Route.

I'd like to add as evidence that other than Flowey recognizing Frisk as Chara from the start unlike in the Pacifist Route and the fact that the narration is replaced from Chara's 1st person dialogue, that, based on these blogs (1 and 2) which I recommend you to read given how in detail they are that:

• Chara guides the player through the Genocide route, examples are them saying "N monsters left" per area, or even stopping us at Waterfall if we forget some monsters to kill, or also giving us information on where to get weapons.
• Chara collaborating with the Player in order to resurrect through gaining LV, and even using the "we" as in plural to mention that Chara killed all the monsters alongside us in the Genocide, right to gain power to come back to life. This is why when we abort a Genocide, Chara leaves us, because the collaboration we and Chara had ended the moment we failed to complete said Genocide.

This is the new profile Chara gets and it has some changes too:

• Their intelligence should be changed to Unknown, when they have poisoned Asgore they were still a kid despite being a weirdo at the time, and they are obviously much smarter than since, given their fighting skills and their comprehension of how the game world works. However, we still don't know much about their personality given their extremely limited screen time across all the game, so their intelligence should be Unknown, because we cannot make a coherent IQ rating on them.
• They have obviosuly the new Key when they possess Frisk, and all the feats Frisk has in the Genocide Route rn should be removed and simply be changed to Chara.

sure, Immortality type 1 at the bottom should just be grouped with the rest, not sure why its separated lol.

Lifting Strength stuff

Papyrus' current LS rating simply sucks ass because he does not lift the bones like the calculation says but just pushes them on the ground, thus friction is involved.

Meaning that Sans' TK, Papyrus, Undyne, Toriel and Asgore will be changed to 52766.71 N (Class 10).

But there is more!

Photoshop Flowey, as said already in his profile, has overpowered with pure physical strength and restrained at the same time Sans, Alphys, Undyne, Papyrus, Toriel and Asgore.

Given the latter 4 scale to Class 10, Photoshop Flowey should get a x4 multiplier, meaning he'd be 211066.84 N, which is Class 25 or really damn close to Class 50. Given he did the feat really casually, maybe he can simply just be Class 50 here.

His Asriel Dreemurr key, because of this, should simply be Class 50 because of upscaling, but not just that, and here is where the things get controversial.

Considering that the Human SOULs boost seem to increase also the Lifting Strength, given that Flowey became from "Unknown" to Class 25/50, Asriel should be an "At least Class 50, possibly Infinite", because of him literally getting an infinite power boost from the gap between 7 and 6 SOULs, so him getting even an infinite boost even in pure physicals is not that far fetched.

Class 10 looks aight, iffy on the Class 50/Infinite stuff, multipliers are weirddd

Downgrade to 9-A

Honestly, the 9-A+ used from MTT EX calc does not work, because it's simple leg-shaped bullets that instead of being distant, they're used closely, and it ignores that Frisk still gets the damage they'd get from a single leg. Plus Danmaku does not work in this way, because it's still many bullets used each with the same AP of the individual who uses the, we do not give to characters higher ratings just because they have multiple limbs and can use them at the same time, thus multiplying their AP, we give tiers based on the power of a single blow.

What does it mean? That everyone becomes 9-A and the 8-Cs will simply upscale from the 0.04476 Tons value.

sure

Monster Physiology

I have been preparing a Monster Physiology page, covering everything that monsters have, and I have covered 3 types of monsters other than baseline ones, those being Amalgamates, Ghosts and Boss Monsters:

I've added some things and changed wordings to others already accepted but I am too lazy to list them all lol.

Looks aight, from a quick glance

Additions of info to Flowey and the Player

Flowey's scans of him lacking a SOUL are ass indeed.

Thankfully I have listed some stuff.

His SOUL has combined with Chara's, before dying, making the the former collapsing into dust and his soul disappearing, with Alphys and himself saying lots of times that he lacks a SOUL.

The Player on the other hand has still multiple complaints about their actual existence in Undertale, but I have made a note to add to their profile in order to close all the doubts about their existence, which is clear evident in also Undertale and not just Deltarune.

looks aight

DETERMINATION should act as a layered Power Nullification + 2-B Frisk

Basically, everyone knows the deal. Higher or equal amounts of DT can nullify one's ability to SAVE and LOAD, as shown with:

• Flowey being unable to SAVE and LOAD after that Frisk/Chara came to the underground because of him having lesser DT.
• Photoshop Flowey making Frisk unable to use their SAVE and LOAD after that he got the power of 6 SOULs.
• Peak Frisk and Asriel each being unable to use SAVE and LOAD because of their DT amount being equal.

This should work like Dragon Ball layers of resistance to Hit Time Skip, and to go as conservative as I can, in order to not make this a weakness of DT, nor a "no one can nullify Frisk because they do not have the UT Determination". I'll do a similar thing to how Hit stuff is handled here, this time not using Time Stop, but against Time Travel/Rewind and Power Nullification:

• Flowey: Baseline
• Normal Frisk: 1 layer above baseline
• Immense DT Frisk: 2 layers (has the full power of a Human SOUL, so they should be a layer above for the same reason Flowey is)
• Photoshop Flowey: 3 or 7 layers (has the power of 6 SOULs, which is why he was so superior to Frisk. If SOULs = Layers isn't enough, then is 3 layers)
• Asriel Dreemurr / Peak DT Frisk / The Player / Absolute Chara: 4 or 8 layers (because of the Player being able to use a TRUE RESET, and Asriel planning to use it, meaning he got a level of DT higher than his Photoshop Flowey self)

Frisk, because of this, in their peak DT Self, should also get a "2-B through a TRUE RESET", because of their DT being high enough to rival Asriel's and the other God Tiers.

2-B frisk is based, I agree with that

im pretty meh on this layers idea, stronger levels of DT completely nulling the powers of a lower DT just seems like a weakness of DT itself, not exactly a widespread power null type deal, so to speak, but I can get the idea so I will stay neutral for now

Frisk gets a speed downgrade

This is not attacking any rating, but more a scaling on their profile.

even higher with Immense Determination (Could keep up with Photoshop Flowey's rain of attacks)

Issue though it's that Flowey's justification is:

At least Hypersonic, likely higher (Kept up with a Frisk who defeated Asgore and could repeatedly blitz Frisk when not holding back at the end of their fight)

This is literally just circular scaling. Frisk was literally blitzed multiple times from a non-serious Flowey and unlike in the Asriel fight, they have 0 reasons to get a speed increase against Flowey. Yeet that "even higher" and we're good.

sure

 

[StrymULTRA]

sure, Immortality type 1 at the bottom should just be grouped with the rest, not sure why its separated lol.

I do not see Type 1 immortality though?

Class 10 looks aight, iffy on the Class 50/Infinite stuff, multipliers are weirddd

I can see why you'd not agree with this.

im pretty meh on this layers idea, stronger levels of DT completely nulling the powers of a lower DT just seems like a weakness of DT itself, not exactly a widespread power null type deal, so to speak, but I can get the idea so I will stay neutral for now

Alr.

 

[ShionAH]

sure, Immortality type 1 at the bottom should just be grouped with the rest, not sure why its separated lol.

Class 10 looks aight, iffy on the Class 50/Infinite stuff, multipliers are weirddd

sure

Looks aight, from a quick glance

looks aight

2-B frisk is based, I agree with that

im pretty meh on this layers idea, stronger levels of DT completely nulling the powers of a lower DT just seems like a weakness of DT itself, not exactly a widespread power null type deal, so to speak, but I can get the idea so I will stay neutral for now

sure

Roachman is here. Now I agree with whatever he agreed because I know he has an IQ over 9000

 

[Ped2018]

Roachman is here. Now I agree with whatever he agreed because I know he has an IQ over 9000

The D riding is crazy

 

[ShionAH]

I do not see Type 1 immortality though?

Look at SelfSus. It has Immo 1 with it

 

[StrymULTRA]

Look at SelfSus. It has Immo 1 with it

I SWEAR I COMPLETELY MISSED THAT.

 

[StrymULTRA]

Alright, so after thinking for a bit I have moved the Type 1 immortality with the rest, given that apparentely you can have Type 1 and 5 at the same time.

I have removed the self-sustenance, as Incorporeality and NEP already cover that.

 

[Angelzewolf]

Disagree with Flowey LS justification. That's like if I use multiple different ropes to tie people onto one pole. They're LS aren't being combined onto one thing, as far as I can tell.

Asriel LS, is that actually good enough justification for even a "possibly"? He has an infinite power source but so what? It's actually extremely common in fiction to have characters wield infinite power but not infinite LS. I think it should just have a vague "higher" instead of "possibly infinite". If the one fact is good enough then I guess I'd be fine with possibly.

Power Null also feels like reaching. I pretty much just agree with Topaz, and I'm bad at explaining stuff. I will if I have to but it wouldn't be well-made.

Frisk 2B rating. If it's for tiering and range, I'm fine with it. If it's for AP, nope from me.

Everything else I'm fine with.

 

[Eden_Warlock99]

Frisk 2B rating. If it's for tiering and range, I'm fine with it. If it's for AP, nope from me.

Tiering is AP tho

 

[StrymULTRA]

Frisk 2B rating. If it's for tiering and range, I'm fine with it. If it's for AP, nope from me.

It's separated from their physical AP yes.

 

[Angelzewolf]

It's separated from their physical AP yes.

Then yeah, I agree

 

[JustANormalLemon]

May I ask a thing about undertale ap here?

Look this calc

Should be fair to considere that mettaton damage power should be higher them a regular oven?

Other them that, everything seens good to me

 

[StrymULTRA]

Should be fair to considere that mettaton damage power should be higher them a regular oven?

Nothing says he is, so we can't scale anyone to it.

Plus nothing says it reaches this temperature in a second, oven take tens of minutes to even reach hundreds degrees.

 

[JustANormalLemon]

Nothing says he is, so we can't scale anyone to it.

Well, how about the fact It should be the same type of oven that exploded undyne house?

 

[StrymULTRA]

Well, how about the fact It should be the same type of oven that exploded undyne house?

Literally nothing says it is the same + the fact that it takes an unknown amount of time to reach that temperature + Frisk scales to the explosion and not the heat.

 

[JustANormalLemon]

Literally nothing says it is the same + the fact that it takes an unknown amount of time to reach that temperature + Frisk scales to the explosion and not the heat.

Okay, well, It was nice to try at least ;P thanks for the input

 

[Angelzewolf]

Tiering is AP tho

Sorry. Didn't notice your comment.

I meant I'm fine with Frisk having it noted somewhere she's able to affect a 2-B structure. Just not that she has that level of attack potency. I don't necessarily care how it's listed as long as there's a clear distinction between the two.

 

[Therefir]

Agree with Topaz and Phsccarvalho, that's not how layered powers work, and the power of reset most likely goes to the one person who has the highest determination in the Underground. The SAVE point Frisk was trying to use was most likely set up by Flowey himself, as he had already made a SAVE point before.

I also don't think we need a note to specify that just because a character from another verse may have more willpower than Frisk automatically means they gain the power to reset, souls and beings in Undertale are built differently than in other verses, having greater determination is not enough.

As for the True Reset, it should be rated as "2-B Environmental Destruction with True Reset".

I agree on the 9-A and Class 10 downgrade.

Neutral on the Class 50/Infinite lifting strength upgrade.

 

[The_Yellow_Topaz]

Agree with Topaz and Phsccarvalho, that's not how layered powers work, and the power of reset most likely goes to the one person who has the highest determination in the Underground. The SAVE point Frisk was trying to use was most likely set up by Flowey himself, as he had already made a SAVE point before.

This is further confirmed when Frisk's SAVE is not affected by Omega Flowey whatsoever after he is defeated.

 

[StrymULTRA]

Agree with Topaz and Phsccarvalho, that's not how layered powers work, and the power of reset most likely goes to the one person who has the highest determination in the Underground. The SAVE point Frisk was trying to use was most likely set up by Flowey himself, as he had already made a SAVE point before.

I also don't think we need a note to specify that just because a character from another verse may have more willpower than Frisk automatically means they gain the power to reset, souls and beings in Undertale are built differently than in other verses, having greater determination is not enough.

I'll talk about these later.

 

[StrymULTRA]

The thing it's that simply DT does not allow multiple beings to have the same control over the timeline, as it clearly conflicts, so having Frisk and a time manipulation from another verse to manipulate time is clearly against DT's nature in itself, as only the guy with more DT can have it.

If the "layer" thing does not work (but it should given it nulls other power null depending on who has higher DT), it should be at least Power Nullification over others' Time Travel, similairly to how Dialga prevented Celebi from time travelling, if we need another verse as medium here.

 

[The_Yellow_Topaz]

The thing it's that simply DT does not allow multiple beings to have the same control over the timeline.

Strym explains exactly why this is universe specific. A universe rule should not be appliable to other universes. This is the undertale universe being a "single player game", if we want to take the meta into account.

 

[StrymULTRA]

Strym explains exactly why this is universe specific. A universe rule should not be appliable to other universes. This is the undertale universe being a "single player game", if we want to take the meta into account.

It does though. It's not just a mechanic, it's a power. It gives you a whole set of P&A after all, and as such it should be equalized.

 

[The_Yellow_Topaz]

It does though. It's not just a mechanic, it's a power. It gives you a whole set of P&A after all, and as such it should be equalized.

The assumption that those are mutually exclusive is questionable. Also granting a set of P&A isn't a green sign for equalized---


You know what? What the heck, do whatever you want

 

[Jason_Courne]

Rip 8-C Undertale

Anyways, Flowey should just get his own Class K lifting strength via Justice's big SOUL gun, this could also debatably scale to the SOUL power of a single human but ehh leave that for later

 

[StrymULTRA]

Anyways, Flowey should just get his own Class K lifting strength via Justice's big SOUL gun, this could also debatably scale to the SOUL power of a single human but ehh leave that for later

You really should stop bringing calcs in CRTs not related to them ngl.

 

[Jason_Courne]

You really should stop bringing calcs in CRTs not related to them ngl.

Hehe no
I mostly brought this up just cuz I saw Photoshop Flowey getting Class 50 and thought it would be better if he got Class K, although I'm stopping after this comment so don't worry

 

[StrymULTRA]

Bump

 

[DaReaperMan]

I'm neutral on Layers, i can see both sides' points and TBH these kinds of messes are why I sometimes avoid UT threads.

Power Null should only for the individuals that have shown it, IE Frisk, Omega Flowey, and Asriel.

Base Flowey does not get it, Undyne the Undining does not get it.

I'm iffy on using Multipliers in that way so I'd put it under "Possibly" or "Likely", and Possibly infinite LS is fine. Oh, and as for how to label 2 Possiblies, "Class 50 (justification) or Infinite (Justification)"

Downgrades, Chara, Monster Physiology are all fine

 

[StrymULTRA]

Power Null should only for the individuals that have shown it, IE Frisk, Omega Flowey, and Asriel.

Base Flowey does not get it, Undyne the Undining does not get it.

About this, no one said ever that Undyne has it, she does not even have SAVE and LOAD lol.

Plus, Chara and The Player absolutely should get it too, as Player has the same degree of Asriel's DT and Chara has said DT.

Also calling it Omega Flowey is cringe, we ain't in 2016 bud.

I'm iffy on using Multipliers in that way so I'd put it under "Possibly" or "Likely", and Possibly infinite LS is fine. Oh, and as for how to label 2 Possiblies, "Class 50 (justification) or Infinite (Justification)"

Issue it's not a x37409384038403 multiplier like Dragon Ball, it's a mere x4.

 

[Maverick_Zero_X]

Mostly agree with the proposals, neutral on the layers thing though.

 

[The_Yellow_Topaz]

This should seal the deal with the layer thing.

The power isn't present within all Determination users, and unlocked once you've got the most amount of it. The power is inherited once you reach the threshold. There is no Power Nullification going on at all.

You can't claim the higher determination is nullifying other powers anymore.
Ressurection, which is done through time travel, is also not nullified, so yeah, I think there's no more room.

 

[StrymULTRA]

You know that you could have just passed the link if is a YT vid right

Ressurection, which is done through time travel, is also not nullified, so yeah, I think there's no more room.

I mean Frisk literally failed to use their SAVE and LOAD against Asriel, latter same.

Edit: it seems that your own scan also says that only the one with the highest DT has control over the timeline, so why wouldn't a dude from another verse be able at the same time Frisk can? It doesn't make sense. And how is the control of the timeline inherited? Easy, nulling the weaker one.

 

[The_Yellow_Topaz]

I mean Frisk literally failed to use their SAVE and LOAD against Asriel, latter same.

Of course, Asriel has the equivalent of 7 Human SOULs. They can still time travel via ressurection as their determination was matching Asriel's (they didn't have full control over the timeline as stated by themselves)

It seems that your own scan also says that only the one with the highest DT has control over the timeline, so why wouldn't a dude from another verse be able at the same time Frisk can? It doesn't make sense. And how is the control of the timeline inherited? Easy, nulling the weaker one.

This is mad "Only my interpretation is right" vibes.

Read it again, Flowey says they'll inherit the power once Frisk is gone, meaning you the weaker DT gives the stronger one their control, you can't do that to time powers that have nothing to do with this little transaction.

"receive or be left with (a situation, object, etc.) from a predecessor or former owner."

As I said before, nulling a weaker power do not grant you layers, you need to actually surpass a resistance to do that. Layers are out of the question, what you want here is applying this supposed nullification to all verses.

The scan says the person with the highest Determination inherits the control of the timeline given by the ability, the scan literally proves Determination being the thing that gives you your power once you reach a certain threshold, you INHERENT this from the last user. Either a universe rule, or something determination does, the reason why someone else wouldn't fall under these rules is the simple fact their time hax don't operate on Determination. It's that simple.