Undertale: General CRT

[StrymULTRA]

No I mean, like, for example, this door is unaffected by dynamite, so Flowey uses a nuke to destroy it
Chara uses an Anti-Tank Missile to destroy it
This doesn't mean the Anti-Tank Missile is as strong as the Nuke tho

You do realize we are talking about DETERMINATION and not weapons right?

It's the same power here. And only that much level of DT allows to destroy the cosmoology, so Occam's Razor says that they have similar stats.

 

[Deleted member 16409]

No I mean, like, for example, this door is unaffected by dynamite, so Flowey uses a nuke to destroy it
Chara uses an Anti-Tank Missile to destroy it
This doesn't mean the Anti-Tank Missile is as strong as the Nuke tho

And yet, Chara manages to erase Asriel and the Barrier with a single slash, meaning in genocide, they're same of above level than Asriel.

 

[Adem_Warlock69]

You do realize we are talking about DETERMINATION and not weapons right?

It's the same power here. And only that much level of DT allows to destroy the cosmoology, so Occam's Razor says that they have similar stats.

Not really, Chara uses an attack to destroy the game world, the destruction of the game world is a byproduct of Asriel existing
I dont think we can scale them to each other

 

[StrymULTRA]

Not really, Chara uses an attack to destroy the game world, the destruction of the game world is a byproduct of Asriel existing
I dont think we can scale them to each other

Then make a CRT against it my guy, because this ain't the right place.

 

[Roachman40]

Mid-Godly

The argument comes from Frisk being able to resurrect in case they die, and they cannot reach their SAVE File (as even said in their profile), but there is something which is still worth to mention.

As said already in the Flowey's profile, he lacks a soul, and yet he still can LOAD back to the SAVE point when he dies, meaning that DETERMINATION can LOAD even if both soul and body are destroyed.

But how this related with Frisk? As said before, they cannot LOAD anymore in the Asriel fight, given that a Determination user, when they encounter someone with greater DT, they cannot LOAD anymore. And not even Asriel was able to LOAD anymore, as he was forced to make Frisk give up in order to gain control over time, meaning that both of them couldn't SAVE, LOAD or RESET during the fight. Meaning that Frisk was still using their DT, but instead of LOADing back to a previous SAVE point, they straight up just resurrect, refusing to die.

What do I mean with this? DETERMINATION shown already the ability to bring back from complete destruction of body and soul through LOADing, and in case a high DT user like Frisk cannot LOAD, they should be able to resurrect, even if soul and body are destroyed.

It's basically regeneration instead of using time manipulation, so if time manipulation can bring back from soul + body destruction, regeneration should be able to as well.

neutral, although definitely leaning toward agree.

NEP

We all know that Chara lacks a SOUL after their first death, as even said in their profile in the Immunity to Soul hax, but if you're lazy, they have lost both their SOUL and body after combining theirs with Asriel's in short.

Then Chara possesses Frisk, as already said in the profile, with proofs being Frisk was referred as themselves when looking in the mirror in both the Neutral and Pacifist Route, but in the Genocide Route instead it was Chara the one who was looking at the mirror and showcased that they were in their body after the first Genocide ending. Another is Flowey describing Chara as both empty as him and having a "stolen SOUL", while also recognizing them as Chara instead of Frisk. Basically implying that Chara became a Nonexistent and non-physical being who needs a physical host like Frisk to interact with stuff again.

Another evicence is on the premise of Chara destroying the entire game, but after that, they talk to the player as the void left from the destruction of the game, thus it can be argued that they are made of the same void left after the destruction of the game, combined with the previous evidence.

I think it would be NEP Type 1 Aspect Type 1 at least, given that Chara lacks a SOUL.

neutral

Human SOULs power boost and "Unknown" tier for Photoshop Flowey

Alright, him being just 8-A doesn't really make sense. The boost that Human SOULs give to monsters is exponential as:

• Asriel with Chara's SOUL can easily exterminate every human in a village, given that a monster with a human soul is described as a "horrible beast with unfathomable power", implying that Monster fused with Human SOUL >>>>>> Single Human SOUL
• A monster powered with 7 Human SOULs is already Tier 2, aka it's not just Human Soul x 7, but has literally an uncountable infinite power boost from their base form.

This easily means that the power of Human SOULs increases by an exponential rate the combined power that a Human SOUL and a Monster would have if simply summed up. Meaning that Photoshop Flowey logically cannot be just 8-A in any shape or form, given that he's just one SOUL more to become Tier 2, while also being immensely above an entire human village if he's powered from a single Human SOUL.

A similar character was reverted to Unknown right because of this exponential multipliers from its base form, so if a Human SOUL already gives to a monster enough power to wipe out and exterminate an entire village, and 7 SOULs give a Tier 2 boost, there's no ******* reason to say that Photoshop Flowey is only x6 Frisk, he immensely outclasses that, but the gap is quite, Unknown, so the safest bet is this tier.

Some of the feats he has are:

• Destroying the SAVE File with blows, but this is not exactly quantifiable, as SAVEs in Undertale are only points in time that the user can use to go back to that point of time, and nothing else was really affected from said destruction.
• He destroyed the monsters and humanity instantly after getting the 6 SOULs, but the ways are quite unknown, given he still cannot destroy the barrier without the power of 7 SOULs (and he mostly likely did it through hax, given the entire nature of the feat).

Both of these feats are worthy, but cannot be exactly quantified, making him being Unknown even more solid.

His "Chara's Soul" key for this reason should be changed to "At least 8-B, likely far higher" instead because of him being superior to lots of full powered humans.

(Not all humans seem to be able to reach their full potential most of the time it seems, so I don't think the village humans where all 8-B unless given more context, especially considering it took everything they had to wound asriel.)

Otherwise im rather neutral, leaning towards agree on this, I don't really mind an Unknown for Photoshop Flowey

One thing I disagree with though is Photoshop Flowey destroying the monsters and mankind after getting the 6 human SOULS. The corrupted intro is probably not being literal and is most likely just Flowey trying to mess with ye, which he evidently likes to do through the photoshop flowey encounter.
Another thing, him saying he will show 'everyone' the true meaning of this world once he achieves his newfound powers implies that humans and monsters are still around, and once he gets the 7th SOUL he will show them, which he of course he hasn't gotten to yet by that time.

Hax for Photoshop Flowey

Flowey should have the following hax in his Photoshop Flowey key, given that he erased humanity while also changing the game's name, intro and overwritting Frisk's SAVE file with his information:

• Text Manipulation, Data Manipulation and Limited Information Manipulation (Type 2) (He was able to change the game's name and overwrote Frisk's SAVE File, changing its information with his own)
• Minor Plot Manipulation (Altered the game's intro)
• Existence Erasure (obvious reasons)

Text Manipulation: agreed
Data Manipulation and Limited Information Manipulation (Type 2): ehhh flowey doesn't really override frisk's save file from what I remember? he shatters it, this is just a showcase of his superior time manipulation that he has gained through the SOULS, not really him overriding the data/info of frisk's SAVE file and turning it into his own.
Existence Erasure: Very much disagree for reasons I've already explained.

Minor Law Manipulation for Sans

Basically Sans can infinitely extend his turn, making the opponent unable to attack him given it's still not their turn yet. Given how metafictional Undertale is, and the inability to attack because of the lack of using a FIGHT button being already showcased with Gerson not being able to be attacked in his shop because of the player not fighting there, this can be taken as an actual hax, and Law Manipulation fits this, as Sans is using a rule of RPG games in his advantage.

Neutral

 

[StrymULTRA]

I'll start to get on the vote count.

 

[StrymULTRA]

Added vote tally.

Data Manipulation and Limited Information Manipulation (Type 2): ehhh flowey doesn't really override frisk's save file from what I remember? he shatters it, this is just a showcase of his superior time manipulation that he has gained through the SOULS, not really him overriding the data/info of frisk's SAVE file and turning it into his own.

Issue is that at the beginning, we do not see Frisk's SAVE File, but just Flowey's, so it can be reasonable that he did manipulate the Introduction in the game to just showcase said superiority.

 

[omegabronic]

Destroying the SAVE File with blows, but this is not exactly quantifiable, as SAVEs in Undertale are only points in time that the user can use to go back to that point of time, and nothing else was really affected from said destruction.

that is 3-A actually

 

[StrymULTRA]

that is 3-A actually

SAVE files in Undertale do not hold pieces of time, but are just something which allows the user to go back to a specific point of time.

Besides, Kira's case clearly showcases space being affected around him, but Flowey... not really.

 

[Lynieryz]

Agree FRA

 

[y3p_owo]

I agree with Minor Law Hax for Sans, NEP for Chara, Omega Flowey's new tiering and all their haxs minus Existence Eraser. Everything else I'm neutral on.

 

[Da3ggman]

In case I wasn't clear enough in my previous comment:
Agree: Almost everything
Neutral: Sans Law Manip and Mid-Godly
Disagree: Everything for Flowey except for Text Manip.

 

[StrymULTRA]

Disagree: Everything for Flowey except for Text Manip.

You mean just hax or also the new tier?

 

[Metalballrun]

Agree on Chara NEP, Unknown Flowey, Flowey Text/Data/LimInfoT2 Manip

Neutral on Flowey Plot Manip (wary of this power in general) and EE, Sans Minor Law Manip (but lean towards agreeing, just need to reread stuff from the verse)

---

The problem with Mid-Godly regen, and this has certainly been brought up in past CRTs, is that this type of regeneration was never shown. Their SOUL's regeneration is currently rated High-Mid (downgraded from a previously higher type of regen, was probably Mid-Godly) and that's basically what just happens. They refused to die by re-fusing their SOUL that was split into two, before it could completely split apart into tiny little pieces (which is the typical indicator of them completely dying).

So what is being suggested here is basically that, since DT + LOAD = Resurrection of Body + Soul via Time Manipulation, then that means Higher DT = Regeneration of Body + Soul. But the evidence itself isn't Mid-Godly regen but High-Mid. So this progression might need more evidence because it feels a bit of a jump, even though if we're really stretching it, it might be possible.

So I don't agree with it (for now, I might need to review my thoughts after a while).

 

[Sans015]

Frisk can also reach 2-C durability when they feel like it, and the six other kids probably never even reached 8-B when facing Asgore, so I don't think there's enough evidence to say that the village was full of 8-B humans

We have a statement that the monster with a human soul has "unfathomable power". This is written by the same monsters who experienced Human's strength at first hand during the war, so it's still "far higher than 8-B"

 

[Sans015]

Also, I disagree on Mid-Godly Regeneration. Even if you're unable to LOAD, when you die, your body still resurrects on a point in time, even if you've never saved the game. It's still just resurrection, in my opinion.

 

[StrymULTRA]

So what is being suggested here is basically that, since DT + LOAD = Resurrection of Body + Soul via Time Manipulation, then that means Higher DT = Regeneration of Body + Soul. But the evidence itself isn't Mid-Godly regen but High-Mid. So this progression might need more evidence because it feels a bit of a jump, even though if we're really stretching it, it might be possible.

You completely misinterpreted my point. It wasn't just because of Frisk refusing their Soul, but because of the regen being hypothetically be able to make Frisk return from Soul + Body complete destruction, as at lower levels of DT it showcased already to be able to bring back from such destruction levels.

 

[StrymULTRA]

Also, I disagree on Mid-Godly Regeneration. Even if you're unable to LOAD, when you die, your body still resurrects on a point in time, even if you've never saved the game. It's still just resurrection, in my opinion.

????

I do not see how that's not Regeneration. You can see Frisk reforming themselves.

 

[Sans015]

????

I do not see how that's not Regeneration. You can see Frisk reforming themselves.

How? You mean the soul re-fusing? That is the only piece of regeneration we've seen this far, as far as I can tell.

I'd still like to insist on the fact that you don't need a LOAD to resurrect.

 

[StrymULTRA]

How? You mean the soul re-fusing? That is the only piece of regeneration we've seen this far, as far as I can tell.

Yeah, and that's literally regeneration, not resurrection. Because you see them "fixing" their Body/Soul.

I'd still like to insist on the fact that you don't need a LOAD to resurrect

Their Type 4 Immortality rn is based only on Loading thought.

 

[omegabronic]

Rwading again i agree with everything exept the new flowey tier, he isn't a monster, he is an flower thar was animated with DT, therefore the argument doesn't work for him

 

[1st_Virtue_of_Pure_Void]

Agree FRA

 

[StrymULTRA]

Rwading again i agree with everything exept the new flowey tier, he isn't a monster, he is an flower thar was animated with DT, therefore the argument doesn't work for him

Explain then why he got the power to break the barrier with 7 Souls if wouldn't get the boost a monster has.

Besides, this was already argued and rejected in another thread.

 

[omegabronic]

Explain then why he got the power to break the barrier with 7 Souls if wouldn't get the boost a monster has.

Because he has inumerable monster souls in him, he never had 7 human souls, he had 6 + all of the monsters, and he became a monster again anyway, so the argument is not valid here

Besides, this was already argued and rejected in another thread.

The fact that flowey is not a monster?

 

[StrymULTRA]

Because he has inumerable monster souls in him, he never had 7 human souls, he had 6 + all of the monsters, and he became a monster again anyway, so the argument is not valid here

It doesn't matter the nature of the souls, all that matters is the power they give. All of the monsters' SOULs = a single human SOUL, so he still has enough power to destroy the barrier.

The fact that flowey is not a monster?

Here

 

[Adem_Warlock69]

Here

3 Pages, wow

 

[Metalballrun]

You completely misinterpreted my point. It wasn't just because of Frisk refusing their Soul, but because of the regen being hypothetically be able to make Frisk return from Soul + Body complete destruction, as at lower levels of DT it showcased already to be able to bring back from such destruction levels.

I didn't.
The problem is the very fact that the suggestion in the OP is hypothetical, based on another case that has a different variable (SAVE/LOAD's Time Manip), so assuming that a higher DT alone can result to Mid-Godly regeneration is a fair bit extrapolatory. Especially when this is, AFAIK, the first time DT has given Frisk regeneration.

Ergo, lower DT bringing a soul and body back via SAVE/LOAD function doesn't necessarily mean a higher DT without SAVE/LOAD can do the same, especially when at most we've seen High-Mid regeneration from Hight DT Frisk while Low DT Frisk did not have any regeneration at all.

 

[Metalballrun]

Also upon some reading, I now fully agree with Sans having Minor Law Manipulation.

 

[Sans015]

Yeah, and that's literally regeneration, not resurrection. Because you see them "fixing" their Body/Soul.

This is not Mid-Godly regeneration. They refuse to die and regenerate. When their body is completely destroyed, we just either go back to a point in time without any saves or to a save, I do not think assuming it's a Mid-Godly regeneration is fair considering we don't see it and we have a better explanation already established, T4 Immortality.

Their Type 4 Immortality rn is based only on Loading thought.

Well, semantics, honestly; it is explained that they can choose to come back via the SAVE system, it's certainly not limited to this. Saves are optional throughout the entire game.

 

[StrymULTRA]

I didn't.
The problem is the very fact that the suggestion in the OP is hypothetical, based on another case that has a different variable (SAVE/LOAD's Time Manip), so assuming that a higher DT alone can result to Mid-Godly regeneration is a fair bit extrapolatory. Especially when this is, AFAIK, the first time DT has given Frisk regeneration.

Ergo, lower DT bringing a soul and body back via SAVE/LOAD function doesn't necessarily mean a higher DT without SAVE/LOAD can do the same, especially when at most we've seen High-Mid regeneration from Hight DT Frisk while Low DT Frisk did not have any regeneration at all.

But DT has already showcased the ability to bring back from Soul + Body destruction, and High DT instead of using Load uses Regeneration. Meaning that Loading already is able to recover from damage that requires Mid Godly, meaning that the regeneration should be the same case as well.

This is not Mid-Godly regeneration. They refuse to die and regenerate. When their body is completely destroyed, we just either go back to a point in time without any saves or to a save, I do not think assuming it's a Mid-Godly regeneration is fair considering we don't see it and we have a better explanation already established, T4 Immortality.

Frisk in fact has T3 Immortality and Regeneration in the High DT key right because of that.

But even then, on Resurrection page we have this

The degree of the ability should preferably be specified with the same system used for Regeneration. As such, it should preferably be specified if a character has displayed the ability to resurrect up to a Mid level of damage, for example.

Meaning that it's still Mid Godly but with Resurrection instead of Regeneration.

 

[Da3ggman]

You mean just hax or also the new tier?

Just the hax; I agree with the new tier.

 

[Metalballrun]

But DT has already showcased the ability to bring back from Soul + Body destruction

Yes, but only through the ability to SAVE and LOAD (Time Manipulation), and Frisk only acquired said ability by having greater DT than Flowey.
Meaning...

and High DT instead of using Load uses Regeneration

...this is correlation, not causation.
Just because both SAVE/LOAD and the soul regeneration were acquired via DT, it doesn't mean that these two abilities will have the same effects or scope, as they are still inherently different abilities with different effects (albeit with the same end goal of Frisk noping from death).

You can say that DT was causing Frisk's very soul to regenerate, but it wasn't DT that was directly causing Frisk to go back in time, it was the SAVE/LOAD which was acquired through having higher DT than Flowey.

Like also, in a specific situation, it's probably possible for Frisk to acquire both abilities. Because it's not just one or the other. (This is just my own hypothesis though)

 

[StrymULTRA]

Yes, but only through the ability to SAVE and LOAD (Time Manipulation), and Frisk only acquired said ability by having greater DT than Flowey.
Meaning...

...this is correlation, not causation.
Just because both SAVE/LOAD and the soul regeneration were acquired via DT, it doesn't mean that these two abilities will have the same effects or scope, as they are still inherently different abilities with different effects (albeit with the same end goal of Frisk noping from death).

You can say that DT was causing Frisk's very soul to regenerate, but it wasn't DT that was directly causing Frisk to go back in time, it was the SAVE/LOAD which was acquired through having higher DT than Flowey.

Like also, in a specific situation, it's probably possible for Frisk to acquire both abilities. Because it's not just one or the other. (This is just my own hypothesis though)

You're overcomplicating this. From a DT standpoint, "Death" covers also the complete destruction of body and soul. In Frisk's scenario they can refuse to die from regenerating, and given that "Death" in UT also means the destruction of both of these things, they should be able to refuse even when they're destroyed on such a level, similarly to when Flowey did 1st time he used LOAD.

 

[Metalballrun]

I personally don't believe it's that complicated. It can be boiled down to DT Regen =/= SAVE/LOAD, and I tried to explain it in the most concise way I can. I'm still working on that.

I still stand with my argument of disagreement, as it addresses the difference between the two, which also extends to Flowey's use of SAVE/LOAD. I don't believe there is more to be said at the moment about the topic.

This would still be decided by democracy, so I suppose we shall just wait and see.

 

[StrymULTRA]

I personally don't believe it's that complicated. It can be boiled down to DT Regen =/= SAVE/LOAD

That's the thing, they work on the same principle on refusing to die. Only that one is through Time Travel, the other through Regeneration, but they oppose death in the same way. Assuming one can recover from a certain degree of death but the other not it's illogical and extremely nitpicky.

This would still be decided by democracy, so I suppose we shall just wait and see.

K.

 

[ShionAH]

I agree with Strym. On this one just because of how Metals opinion overcomplicates this a lot!

 

[Metalballrun]

That's the thing, they work on the same principle on refusing to die. Only that one is through Time Travel, the other through Regeneration, but they oppose death in the same way. Assuming one can recover from a certain degree of death but the other not it's illogical and extremely nitpicky.

They don't oppose death in the same way. They are abilities acquired the same way for the same purposes, via DT. But one opposes death via time travel and the other via regeneration. Fundamentally different.

The OP is assuming that Higher DT Frisk's Soul Regen is Mid-Godly for the reasons stated. I simply stated observable facts in the game to poke holes in this assumption. Hence why Frisk regenerating from complete soul destruction is a hypothetical scenario in the first place, as you've said yourself. This is just barking at the wrong tree.

Pointing out the difference between time travel and regeneration is hardly nitpicking, as is stating the fact of the difference in how they are acquired and used, and there are only so few comparisons to be made as there's only one character who has ever used Higher DT regeneration. "Extremely nitpicky" is exaggerating things and puts me in a more negative light for no valid reason.

 

[Sans015]

But DT has already showcased the ability to bring back from Soul + Body destruction, and High DT instead of using Load uses Regeneration. Meaning that Loading already is able to recover from damage that requires Mid Godly, meaning that the regeneration should be the same case as well.


Frisk in fact has T3 Immortality and Regeneration in the High DT key right because of that.

I know, I just disagree with it being Mid-Godly.

But even then, on Resurrection page we have this

The degree of the ability should preferably be specified with the same system used for Regeneration. As such, it should preferably be specified if a character has displayed the ability to resurrect up to a Mid level of damage, for example.

Meaning that it's still Mid Godly but with Resurrection instead of Regeneration.

There is no such thing as "Mid-Godly" Resurrection! It's just resurrection, it happens after death regardless of the state of the body, and stronger resurrections sometimes don't even care about the state of the SOUL, which is Frisk's case. That means Frisk's resurrection can happen even if body and SOUL are completely destroyed.

We already knew this, however. It's not something we disagree, yes, I know they can warp to a point in time regardless of the state their body is left in after death. And we already address this with T4 Immortality; this doesn't really warrant Mid-Godly regeneration though, their body isn't being reconstructed like with the "but it refused" scene.

 

[omegabronic]

It doesn't matter the nature of the souls, all that matters is the power they give. All of the monsters' SOULs = a single human SOUL, so he still has enough power to destroy the barrier.

a monster gets extra boosted by a human soul, that is made very clear throughout the game, if flowey isn't a monster, then he doesn't get the same boost, when he absorbed the monster souls, he got back into being a monster, so he got the extra boost you refer in the op

Here

this is a rejected thread, what was i supposed to be seeing here?

 

[StrymULTRA]

Updated the vote tally in a more organized way. Now...

They don't oppose death in the same way. They are abilities acquired the same way for the same purposes, via DT. But one opposes death via time travel and the other via regeneration. Fundamentally different.

Does not matter, is still through DT.

The OP is assuming that Higher DT Frisk's Soul Regen is Mid-Godly for the reasons stated. I simply stated observable facts in the game to poke holes in this assumption. Hence why Frisk regenerating from complete soul destruction is a hypothetical scenario in the first place, as you've said yourself. This is just barking at the wrong tree.

Everything in this wiki works based on hypoteticals and assumptions, as long as there is evidence supporting said assumptions. I just made 2+2 based on the capabilties of DT.

Pointing out the difference between time travel and regeneration is hardly nitpicking, as is stating the fact of the difference in how they are acquired and used, and there are only so few comparisons to be made as there's only one character who has ever used Higher DT regeneration. "Extremely nitpicky" is exaggerating things and puts me in a more negative light for no valid reason.

My guy, it's nitpicking because Frisk comes back to life without the need to use LOAD like they usually do. It's still through DT, not another ability. Meaning that if one can, the other way can do as well.

There is no such thing as "Mid-Godly" Resurrection! It's just resurrection, it happens after death regardless of the state of the body, and stronger resurrections sometimes don't even care about the state of the SOUL, which is Frisk's case. That means Frisk's resurrection can happen even if body and SOUL are completely destroyed.

We already knew this, however. It's not something we disagree, yes, I know they can warp to a point in time regardless of the state their body is left in after death. And we already address this with T4 Immortality; this doesn't really warrant Mid-Godly regeneration though, their body isn't being reconstructed like with the "but it refused" scene.

It's literally wrote in the Resurrection page that it's comparable to Regeneration dude.

a monster gets extra boosted by a human soul, that is made very clear throughout the game, if flowey isn't a monster, then he doesn't get the same boost, when he absorbed the monster souls, he got back into being a monster, so he got the extra boost you refer in the op


this is a rejected thread, what was i supposed to be seeing here?

Literally the same argument which was addressed in the thread I linked lol.