Tyranny Across Time: Solaris [Vol. 2, Pt. 1 - Sonic Revision Series]

[CloverDragon03]

Everything seems fine to me tbh, including the plot hax given that the world of the Arabian Nights is verbatim comprised of text

 

[Eseseso]

After speaking with some of the Sonic people, I agree with plot stuff.

 

[Theglassman12]

@Theuser789 That's not what I asked, I asked when is it remotely stated that the only way to destroy the Arabian world is through the text alone? Because erasing everything which just happened to involve a book world, and said book world only being capable of being destroyed by erasing the narrative itself are two completely different things.

 

[Greenshifter]

If realm X is made exclusively of Y thing, then targeting Y thing is the only way to destroy realm X?

 

[Theglassman12]

@Greenshifter You keep saying that like that's remotely stated as the only way to destroy the arabian world, especially when this is a higher dimensional erasure that's happening in the first place, meaning plot erasure would be irrelevant as it's just nuking everything on a higher level and not specifically targeting someone at a very specific aspect of existence.

 

[Greenshifter]

@Greenshifter You keep saying that like that's remotely stated as the only way to destroy the arabian world, especially when this is a higher dimensional erasure that's happening in the first place, meaning plot erasure would be irrelevant as it's just nuking everything on a higher level and not specifically targeting someone at a very specific aspect of existence.

Since when does higher-D erasure mean you can nuke the plot of lower-D things? I know VSBW tends to be very attached to certain defensive haxes only being useful against attacks on the same dimensional level, but arguing that higher-D EE can automatically target the narratives of lower realities is a bridge too far if you ask me.

Even if this were the case by default, what's the problem then? Solaris would already have the ability we were trying to give him then.

 

[Theglassman12]

You do realize with higher D erasure it doesn't matter what the lower D stuff has, it just by default nukes everything because it essentially sees it in a far lower dimensional plane in the same way we see 2-D drawings as insignificant, that wouldn't grant plot erasure, just higher D erasure, again this is the same thing as arguing people that can erase timelines has matter and deconstruction hax just because it happens to have matter in the timelines.

 

[Greenshifter]

You do realize with higher D erasure it doesn't matter what the lower D stuff has

Disagree, NEP is an example. How would being able to affect more things which exist allow you to hit something which doesn't exist?

the same way we see 2-D drawings as insignificant

Can you destroy a story of a 2D square going to a 2D mall? I have no idea how tbh, sure I could intervene while he's going to the mall, but what about the part of the story where he leaves his 2D house?

has matter and deconstruction hax

I'd argue EE is a very potent form of matter and deconstruction hax but I digress.

 

[Theglassman12]

Except we're not talking about NEP, we're talking about an actual story book world, two completely different things.

Yes by burning the entire story to the point nothing remains, seriously how is this an argument against the plot erasure being not legit? Can you actually address the point instead of making random red herring arguments?

 

[JJSliderman]

Then just say Solaris’s plot erasure is limited to a 3-D or 4-D scope, I don’t see the issue

 

[Theglassman12]

If you can prove the arabian night world is only capable of being destroyed by the narrative itself being wiped out and nothing else then sure, but I don't see it.

 

[Greenshifter]

Except we're not talking about NEP, we're talking about an actual story book world, two completely different things.

You made a general statement, I gave a specific example to disprove said statement. Don't come crying about red herrings when you're the one making general statements.

Yes by burning the entire story to the point nothing remains, seriously how is this an argument against the plot erasure being not legit?

How can I burn the story of the square going to the mall when part of it happened in the past? It would happen in real time and it wouldn't be in a book or something, it could be on a table for example. Heck you can't even argue qualitative transcendence grants you this ability because Sonic's entire cosmology is made up of quantitative transcendences instead.

 

[Theglassman12]

And you're the one making general assumptions about an ability that has little to no elaboration on it being actual Plot erasure, so again I'd like actual explicit evidence that's the case.

You're not addressing my point, where is this remotely relevant to the conversation? Get back on topic and give me evidence that in order for Arabian Nights to be erased it's only possible via plot erasure.

 

[Greenshifter]

You're not addressing my point, where is this remotely relevant to the conversation?

I already addressed your point by stating that the AN is made entirely out of narratives which is already accepted and you haven't countered.

Now you address my points or concede on the notion that higher-D erasure automatically grants narrative erasure of lower realms.

And you're the one making general assumptions about an ability

It's called a deduction, not an assumption.

Anyways, Imma sleep rn

 

[omegabronic]

You do realize with higher D erasure it doesn't matter what the lower D stuff has, it just by default nukes everything because it essentially sees it in a far lower dimensional plane in the same way we see 2-D drawings as insignificant, that wouldn't grant plot erasure, just higher D erasure, again this is the same thing as arguing people that can erase timelines has matter and deconstruction hax just because it happens to have matter in the timelines.

EE on its own already destroys beyond matter, it is essentially super buff deconstruction that leaves nothing behind

It isn't the best example you can give as it would not inherently destroy plot like how EE iherently "destroys"/erases matter

 

[Theglassman12]

@Greenshifter Can you actually bring the scans for the Arabian nights world being made only of narratives and nothing else? Because saying "it's accepted" isn't helping when you're not giving me the scans in the first place.

With no scans on hand to prove your point, ok.

@omegabronic Did you pay attention to what my point was? Because my point is literally the fact that we'd be throwing random abilities to a character based on a statement of one specific ability without any proof that they can actually matter or deconstruct a target, meaning this is a stretch and a half.

 

[Greenshifter]

@Greenshifter Can you actually bring the scans for the Arabian nights world being made only of narratives and nothing else? Because saying "it's accepted" isn't helping when you're not giving me the scans in the first place.

With no scans on hand to prove your point, ok.

Sure, boys, scan him. See you when I wake up

 

[omegabronic]

If you can prove the arabian night world is only capable of being destroyed by the narrative itself being wiped out and nothing else then sure, but I don't see it.

Narrative is what the world is made of, this is like arguing for someone that deatroyed a universe to prove that they destroyed the matter in said universe

 

[Greenshifter]

Narrative is what the world is made of, this is like arguing for someone that deatroyed a universe to prove that they destroyed the matter in said universe

Just give him the scans Bronic…

 

[Theuser789]

I asked when is it remotely stated that the only way to destroy the Arabian world is through the text alone?

We've been actually working on a blog to explain how the Arabian Nights works as an universe, and why that's the case. Here it is: https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/U...ret_Rings:_Fundamentals_of_the_Arabian_Nights

Read it, and once you come back here with any questions if you have 'em.

 

[Theglassman12]

@Theuser789 Thank you for the blog, I am gonna be a bit busy for the rest of the day so I'll respond to this thread when I get around to reading the whole thing.

 

[Brogeefrong]

Btw do Super Forms get any EE resistence, and I remembered Solaris had a layered hax on his profile, whatever happen to that?

 

[Theglassman12]

Ok I've read through the blog and seen the scans, not gonna lie I'm even more unconvinced about the whole "destroying the arabian nights is only possible by erasing the narrative". The fact Erazor Djinn mentions destroying the pages in the book or having Ifrit burn the pages in the book in order to get mess with the world makes the argument that the only way to destroy the Arabian nights world is via affecting the narrative itself complete nonsense to me as more conventional ways of destroying the book is enough. So yeah I'm disagreeing with plot erasure for this.

@Everything12 @Agnaa @Qawsedf234 @Planck69 @Dereck03 @LordTracer @KingTempest @Emirp sumitpo Your inputs regarding the plot erasure for Sonic via Arabian nights would be appreciated.

 

[Agnaa]

I currently have 62 threads in my "to-evaluate" backlog, I've added this to the list, and will get to it eventually.

 

[Theuser789]

The fact Erazor Djinn mentions destroying the pages in the book or having Ifrit burn the pages in the book in order to get mess with the world makes the argument that the only way to destroy the Arabian nights world is via affecting the narrative itself complete nonsense to me as more conventional ways of destroying the book is enough.

But those ways of "destroying" the Arabian Nights are indeed destroying the narrative. Erazor isn't literally burning the pages of a real life book to fulfill his plans, it's just that the word is made of text (as show in the blog) so destroying it and the narrative destroy the world.

I feel like your arguments come from lack of knowledge of the game and its story, so you take arguments that support it and twist them to mean the opposite even if that doesn't make sense (Like you implying that Erazor is physically destroying pages of a book or burning them as if they were just paper, when this in-game we know these "pages" are just the stories of the Arabian Nights, the same ones that Erazor is in right now).

It doesn't help the fact you only showed up after the thread was already accepted and applied despite it being open for days. Especially when you don't seen to know anything about the topic being discussed.

I can only advise for you to either make a new CRT debunking this after you did research on the game and you got counter-arguments rather than coming to a completed thread to debunk it using only your word that "you don’t accept it as enough proof".

 

[Theglassman12]

@Theuser789 Except for the fact he literally said he’s having Iblis burn the pages of the book so why are we assuming he’s not doing what’s literally being said? Can you prove that when he’s talking about burning the pages he doesn’t mean he’s actually burning the book because that’s what’s being said here.

Me not knowing about the story of the game itself isn’t a point when it’s not my job to research the game, it’s your job as supporters to provide context to people not familiar with the games to begin with. By this logic no staff input at all would ever be needed since they don’t know every single form of fiction ever, which is a stupid comment to make in the first place.

 

[JJSliderman]

“Burning the pages of the book” the way you describe it implies that there is one single copy of the entire Arabian Nights story transcripted, and you just need to destroy that in order to destroy the world. The characters are destroying the pages and text from within the world, meaning they aren’t just destroying pages recording the Nights, they’re destroying the pages that are the Nights, the pages that are the history and backbone defining narrative of the Nights.

 

[Spectra_Schiffer]

looks good at first glance

 

[Theuser789]

Me not knowing about the story of the game itself isn’t a point when it’s not my job to research the game, it’s your job as supporters to provide context to people not familiar with the games to begin with.

It is YOUR job when you come after a thread is already concluded demanding for proof when you keep misinterpreting the arguments given again. And again.

Maybe if you had come here earlier, when the thread was still waiting for approval, you might had a point of your word being the word of a king, but not after it was already accepted. The smart thing to was to make a new CRT after you had knowledge of the game to actually debunk this thread, and not use your staff position as leverage to stall out a complete thread simply because you're a staff member.

Nothing that I said was "stupid". The only thing I see is "arrogance" that, just because you're staff member, we need to wait for your, and only your, approval of an already completed thread (This is even worse when you aren't even knowledgeble of what's being argument, so it's our "job" to spoonfeed you on an already accepted thread).

If a regular member was acting like you, anyone would direct them to make a new thread with actual counter-arguments. But since you're staff member, we need to entertain you until you give the greenlight for the thread to... really be completed this time?

 

[ShakeResounding]

TThe fact Erazor Djinn mentions destroying the pages in the book or having Ifrit burn the pages in the book in order to get mess with the world makes the argument that the only way to destroy the Arabian nights world is via affecting the narrative itself complete nonsense to me as more conventional ways of destroying the book is enough.

You have to either A) Enter the book to be transported directly to it's reality, as Sonic did with Shahra or B) Locate/travel to the Arabian Nights within the cosmology itself and destroy it, and we know it's located within the cosmology as Sonic left their reality without assistance from Shahra as he "ran endlessly" going by her dialogue (otherwise we're looking at .

Neither of which is a problem for Solaris, as he was going to consume and erase all existing timelines. It seems like you're just doing different flavors of strawmans when people try to explain it to you, or try to make it seem like a chain reaction when in fact it's a chain reaction in the opposite way. No, somebody deciding to destroy the book in Sonic's reality wouldn't destroy the reality of the Arabian Nights, and nothing in the game ever indicates as much. The entire threat of the game is Erazor destroying the stories from within, then travelling to Sonic's world. Even worse is the Ifrit point as, AGAIN, Ifrit is a being INSIDE the Arabian Nights.

 

[Accelerated_Evolution]

Tbh this should be closed, if @Theglassman12 wants to remove Solaris plot erasure he will need to do another CRT, since this one is already concluded

 

[Fastestthingalive50]

Me not knowing about the story of the game itself isn’t a point when it’s not my job to research the game, it’s your job as supporters to provide context to people not familiar with the games to begin with. By this logic no staff input at all would ever be needed since they don’t know every single form of fiction ever, which is a stupid comment to make in the first place.

Bro, if you have no idea what you’re talking about, then you should do the bare minimum amount of research in order to actually validly disagree.

 

[Theglassman12]

@Fastestthingalive50 So you're not paying attention to what I'm saying at all, you guys are making the argument that the plot erasure is a thing in the verse and you need to provide evidence that it is indeed a thing, I'm using what the standard for the wiki is with what the abilities are classified as, saying "research the verse yourself" isn't an argument as you're refusing to actually provide evidence and expect others to do your homework for yourself.

@JJSliderman What part of this remotely refutes the fact they mention the pages itself being burned away? Because you saying "it implies there's only one book" isn't an argument when that's all we've seen for the arabian nights world.

@Theuser789 It being accepted or not is irrelevant if what's accepted is lacking in evidence in the first place. Oh yeah, I'm the only staff member that matters in this debate, that's why I tagged nearly a dozen other staff members to evaluate this thread for the plot erasure, because that totally means I'm only having my opinion be the only thing that matters in the end. How about refute my point about the pages being burnt going against your argument that the narrative itself is the only way the Arabian Nights can be destroyed instead of throwing baseless accusations at me.

@ShakeResounding What part of this remotely refutes the fact that Ifrit burning the pages in the book is enough to destroy the Arabian Nights world in the first place? Again your arguments stem from the idea that Narrative erasure is the only way the Arabian Nights world can be destroyed, which is not remotely mentioned as it being the only thing it can be destroyed, but is shown the opposite as just burning the pages themselves is enough, Ifrit being in the book itself doesn't change the statement from Erazor Djinn stating that Ifrit just burning the pages is enough for the destruction to happen, meaning erasing the book wouldn't require narrative erasure in the first place.

 

[Planck69]

Neutral for now (still going through the evidence) but Theglassman12 is right that "do your own research" isn't a response you give when asked for context on a feat. He's doing his job just fine in that regard in evaluating what's offered based on wiki rules.

 

[JJSliderman]

The context is that the Arabian Nights is a realm dictated by, and made up of, pages and text. The stories of the Nights are directly responsible for shaping its space, and without the words there is no world. These texts are baked into the world itself, as shown by how one portion of the world is nothing but pages and text (the Lost Prologue), so destroying the world’s space is synonymous with destroying its plot and narrative.

 

[Planck69]

The context is that the Arabian Nights is a realm dictated by, and made up of, pages and text. The stories of the Nights are directly responsible for shaping its space, and without the words there is no world. These texts are baked into the world itself, as shown by how one portion of the world is nothing but pages and text (the Lost Prologue), so destroying the world’s space is synonymous with destroying its plot and narrative.

If this is it then honestly I'm not seeing it. It feels like people are extrapolating a lot based on the aesthetic and presentation of the realm. Like, is there even any information that confirms if someone blasted it normally, it'd be hunky dory?

 

[JJSliderman]

The only time we see the realm, we see that it is spatially affected by someone absorbing the text of the Nights. And the way the Ifrit Golem is planning to destroy the Nights is by destroying the text and pages that make up the Nights.

And no, the pages are not an aesthetic thing. They constantly hammer in that the Nights is a story, with the denizens referred to as “characters”, directly name dropping iconic Arabian legends like Aladdin (since Erazor was the genie from Aladdin), and Sonic entering the world is even described as him transitioning from reality into the world of the Arabian stories.

 

[Planck69]

The only time we see the realm, we see that it is spatially affected by someone absorbing the text of the Nights. And the way the Ifrit Golem is planning to destroy the Nights is by destroying the text and pages that make up the Nights.

This tells me that you can affect the realm by affecting the pages and text. It doesn't tell me that an act of destroying the realm is automatically on the narrative level.

And no, the pages are not an aesthetic thing. They constantly hammer in that the Nights is a story, with the denizens referred to as “characters”, directly name dropping iconic Arabian legends like Aladdin (since Erazor was the genie from Aladdin), and Sonic entering the world is even described as him transitioning from reality into the world of the Arabian stories.

Of course, he's entering the world of Arabian stories from reality but like, if I entered a Shakespeare-inspired dimension from here it'd be described the same way.

The core issue II have here is that this somehow presumes the realm can only be destroyed in a narrative way when there doesn't seem to be anything here confirming that.

 

[Theuser789]

It being accepted or not is irrelevant if what's accepted is lacking in evidence in the first place.

Because you are the one who is saying "it lacks evidence" despite all the others saying it doesn't. Even more so, you think your opinion simply matters more because you are a staff member so you can just pop up in completed threads to stonewall them until your demands are met. Furthermore you confessed that you aren’t knowledgeable on the series, and every staff member who you tagged also isn't. It's just a dick move to pop up in an already accepted thread after a few days, to DEMAND proof for something you don't even know, and then stonewall the thread until you get something you deem "acceptable". If a regular member did this, anyone would ask them to make a new thread with counter-arguments instead, but I guess being a staff member gives you entitlement pass, then.

Anyways, people already argued and posted how they aren’t burning pages of a single book. You're acting as if there’s only a physical book that is being ripped away physically when that isn't the case. The Arabian Nights are a STORY. They exist in a narrative level represented by all the several books telling these tales in the world. They are the One Thousand and One Nights in the folklore. (https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/One_Thousand_and_One_Nights and
(7:56)

Burning away the physical book that Sonic owns wouldn’t do anything because the stories still exist outside of this one copy. In fact, despite you going over "muh burning" with no context of the actual game, all of Erazor's destruction is doing is removing the text from the pages, NOT affecting the book itself. (
(3:15).

The fact the pages are turning blank rather than being "burned" or "ripped away" proves that your idea that just destroying this one physical book wouldn't affect the story.

This point doesn't even make sense in the first place. If affecting the book was enough anytime Sonic dropped it or creased a page or whatever would've been mentioned to affect the book, which isn't the case.

So at this point, after all evidence show, YOU are the one who needs to prove affecting the physical book matters. But I guess since you're a staff member, you don’t need to do that, don't you?

 

[Theuser789]

Theglassman12 is right that "do your own research" isn't a response you give when asked for context on a feat.

People are saying this because this thread was already accepted and applied, but instead of making a new CRT. If we needed approval to apply this thread, then he would be right to want proof for us. Nobody ever said anything against staff members that aren't knowledgeable being unable to evaluate a thread.

Except this thread is ALREADY evaluated and applied. Days ago. But instead of making a new thread, he decided to stonewall this one until his demands are met. So in this case, asking for him to do his own research so he makes a debunk thread is valid, staff or no staff.