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Tying Up Bleach Speed Stuffs

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It would also be helpful if there was a break down of what the AP value these characters scale like how the speed is done. It would make discussing this much easier.
 
Sigurd_Snake_in_The_Eye said:
No it’s about speed. Every other thread prior has been about speed. There hasn’t been a single thread on AP.
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The first bullet point in the OP talks about how the multiplier should be 7.5 instead of 5. The AP is also affect by the multiplier increase so it's just a valid to discuss it here as speed it. If you don't want to talk about AP, then save the multiplier increase for a different thread.
 
Stop being difficult dude. The focus of this thread is clearly speed right now. If the multiplier is agreed to be increased obviously we will see after if anything actually changes anything regarding AP.
 
Wrath_Of_Itachi said:
You should read what I wrote above.
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I read it & I dont See any inconsistency
Why they cant jump tiers?! It would be just MHS to MHS+
What would be the inconsistency there?!
"Jumping tiers without feats"
I mean Why not bro?!? If author implied U were getting stronger by this specific amount why not
They were getting stronger & stronger
& shikai Renzi reached FTL
So it would consistent to use the multipliers

(Side Note maybe not related but still saying: Besides in anime Guy's 100x gate multiplier was lile millions of times or whatever multiplier in terms of joules its Far higher than 100x
The multipliers in anime basically jump U exponentially in AP chart like DB PL is an example
So why not we use this lowballed multiplier jumping only in terms of joules & m/s in speed
There are many light based Attacks in Bleach as well, most scalers used it anyway, this rule forbid them to use it )
 
Wrath_Of_Itachi said:
This thread is about increasing the Bankai multiplier from 5 to 7.5 though.
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Wrath_Of_Itachi said:
The first bullet point in the OP talks about how the multiplier should be 7.5 instead of 5. The AP is also affect by the multiplier increase so it's just a valid to discuss it here as speed it. If you don't want to talk about AP, then save the multiplier increase for a different thread.
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As the creator of this thread, I approve Sigurd's response to these.
Sigurd_Snake_in_The_Eye said:

Tying Up Bleach Speed Stuffs​

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But dude seriously you obviously haven't read what I posted.
Arc7Kuroi said:
The multiplier doesn't even affect dura and AP ratings. I made the sandboxes I should know lol.
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When I say "the multiplier" I refer to the jump from 5x to 7.5x. Being the logical man I am, I went through the Bleach AP/dura ratings and was like let's see what would change with a 7.5x multiplier. To my surprise the tierings stayed the same.

For the thousandth time as well, quite literally immediately after this thread I have a 15 page google doc detailing the scaling of the God Tiers that I will be dropping. Soooooooooooooooooooooooooooo, I'd greatly appreciate it if the God Tier discussion was put on hold. The God Tiers don't hold up the scaling of the rest of the verse, the entire verse can be scaled without the God Tiers.
 
Wrath_Of_Itachi said:
If you don't want to talk about everything the increase in multiplier affects, then save the multiplier increase for it's own thread.
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Who died and made you God? Where doesn't it say I can't tackle how the multiplier affects speed, seeing how it causes no tier changes for AP or dura? If you want to talk about how Bleach multipliers being increased, increases their specific AP value of 5.359312 big bois to 8.935424 bigger bois (who would've guessed, certainly not me) then be my guest. However, I am discussing speed, as indicated by the title of the thread. Please stop derailing.

Wrath_Of_Itachi said:
It might not go up in a actual tier, but it still increases within the same tier.
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No, not "it might not go up" it just straight up doesn't change (assuming I typed everything into my calculator correctly and my calculator functions as it should). They didn't even jump from X to X+ (iirc I did this maybe a month ago). Thus I'm sure it's clear to see if their ratings for AP and dura changed so insignificantly, I wouldn't find it pertinent or interesting to discuss. If I made these threads about speed, AP, and dura they'd go on forever, we've already been on Bleach speed since the forum move. We have a system, organization, a flow of things. Currently in the order, we are wrapping up speed, if something comes up later connected to AP and dura that affects speed we will address it then. I really just want this speed threads to conclude, so I can drop the God Tier CRT I've been working on since October. So I humbly ask again, can we keep the discussion relevant to the thread (aka about non-God Tier's speed)?
 
You right that was plan.

As far as what we left off with before the derailing occurred, we have this regarding a ~50x multiplier appearing:
Arc7Kuroi said:
So are you saying 56.25x is a big problem?

If so I'd like to remind you that, Ichigo going Bankai + Hollow Mask only applies for Grimmjow fight period of time, because after that we don't even have a key for Pseudo Shikai Ichigo. So, yes Ichigo for a short period of time can jump a bit high from his "base" at the time to his strongest form, it's split of two entire transformations. Also, by the time Ichigo fights Grimmjow for the final time is when him being in his Pseudo Bankai state becomes his "base" considering how after Dordonni he doesn't fight anyone with his Pseudo Shikai form because it's too weak. The only real fight where Ichigo takes full advantage of jumping 56.25x in speed is against Dordonni. My point being even if you're iffy on 56.25x it's not something prevalent throughout a vast majority of the story, the other 99.9% of the time we are only seeing a jump of 7.5x in a fight.

There would be 3 fights in total where a character has their power multiplied by above 7.5x in a single fight: Ichigo vs Dordonni (56.25x), Kenpachi vs Gerard (52.5x), and Hikone vs Kenpachi (37.5x). Most of the other times it's anywhere from stuff like 2x (Byakuya hands), to 5x (Gentei Kaijo) to occasionally 7.5x (Bankai related transformations). Personally, I wouldn't see the issue if a 56.25x multiplier was used through every fight, but I recognize the concern of having a verse built off multipliers and being a bit wary do to a lack of feats. However, keep in mind that A) we have a lot of "incalculable" feats in Bleach because they don't fit criteria for this site (i.e. the numerous light related feats that we can't accept due to a strict policy on what we consider light speed) and B) that the author's introduce multipliers because it's a lot easier to convey an increase with a numerical jumps as opposed to drawing what they think is a more impressive feat every time (especially considering how Kubo just draws what he thinks are cool, like guns are all over the TYBW but characters are much faster than a gun could realistically be).

If I misinterpreted your message then ignore this lol.
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We also are waiting on the calc members damage anonymously mentioned to come in for more discussion on the calc itself, as well as @USklaverei to comment on his calc.

Just putting this here so people don't get lost with the recent conversation lol.
 
ProfessorKukui4Life said:
This thread is just further telling me that we need to have a thread (or another thread) to address the usage of multipliers here in general honestly.
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The only complaint is some people taking issue with multipliers being stacked, but that’s really just personal feelings about multipliers in general and doesn’t discredit them or debunk them
 
@Arc7Kuroi; the calc experts I was referring to were @DemonGodMitchAubin and @Jvando. And another user who is no longer on the site so I won't @ them.

Regarding the multipliers, I don't know what the best way forward is here. Mitch seems mostly neutral as they're fine with 7.5x but thinks 5x would be safer, and I'm in agreement that sticking with a 5x multiplier would be safer and better overall.

When we get an unknown multiplier value, we tend to lowball it where we can as far as I'm aware. If there's a multiplier for "several times" for example, we lowball that to 3x, even though it could be far higher.

We could change it so that the ratings are "At least 5x".
 
I don’t think this is the same as an unknown multiplier. Several just means more than 2 but not many which is vague. This here is given a range of 5-10. I think it makes sense most characters Bankai would be the average level which is what he is suggesting as opposed to them all being rated below average.
 
Damage3245 said:
@Arc7Kuroi; the calc experts I was referring to were @DemonGodMitchAubin and @Jvando. And another user who is no longer on the site so I won't @ them.

Regarding the multipliers, I don't know what the best way forward is here. Mitch seems mostly neutral as they're fine with 7.5x but thinks 5x would be safer, and I'm in agreement that sticking with a 5x multiplier would be safer and better overall.

When we get an unknown multiplier value, we tend to lowball it where we can as far as I'm aware. If there's a multiplier for "several times" for example, we lowball that to 3x, even though it could be far higher.

We could change it so that the ratings are "At least 5x".
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we only use the 3x when we have no solid multiplier stated

"his power increased several times" = 3x

"you get an increase of 5x to 10x" here we have a given multiplier low ball would be 5x mid would be 7x and high would be 10x
 
@TOAAPRESENCE1; yeah. But personally I'm still in agreement with Mitch that the safer option is the lowball end of 5x.

Also, Wrath of Itachi is right that the proposals would need to be updated to include how AP is affected by this change. I can't believe it I didn't notice it before but this is bigger than just updating speed ratings.
 
As stated already that is not the focus right now. Especially one with no change in tiering or even a + apparently. But obviously if multipliers are upgraded we’d need to know the new values.
 
The ratings that Arc has repeatedly stated (to the point I am annoyed by him constantly saying it despite agreeing with him on the topic) to change nothing tier wise besides a MHS to MHS+ in speed?

If people are really that hung up on a tier not changing (conveniently changing their argument to “higher numbers in the same tier bad”), go and calculate what the change in said tiers and numbers will be and make a CRT/doc for it. Drop it here, drop it in the GD, doesn’t matter. Just go and do it if you really insist on constantly derailing a speed thread with something you have already been told changes nothing tier wise, the one and only complaint brought up besides opinions until Arc enlightened people on their being no tier change and the argument became bigger numbers in the same tier are bad.
 
Someone got a counter for how many times I’ve said the multiplier update doesn’t change the tiering for Bleach AP and dura?

The reason if you must know why I haven’t mentioned AP and dura was because they didn’t change. I he originally started the sandbox by including AP, dura, and speed. BUT upon realizing that AP/dura don’t change I was like “**** that, that’s unnecessary effort”. Like my bad for not saying that in the OP, but like Anonymous said I’m a broken record here. If a slight change within the same tier is worth taking precedence over my entire OP then by all means talk about it and @ me when you’re done.

And I agree with Sigurd and TOAA, this is different from saying “his speed increases several times” we are given a range. So to be the most accurate we have to acknowledge the ENTIRE range. Which can be done with “at least 5x, possibly 10x” or using the average of 7.5x. Also 10x obviously isn’t rare, as outside of the current time period of Bleach (said to be blessed with amazing Shinigami able to perform Bankai) it is know that a range of 5-10x exists. So it’s not like 10x inflates the values above what the author intended.
 
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iirc in the anime near the end of fake karakura arc gin in bankai was slightly above bankai ichigo (as he seemed to be superior unless ichigo used a getsuga tensho also its stated on his profile "effortlessly matched ichigo")
and when he uses buto renjin his bankais power increases by x10 as accepted and thats when ichigo was forced to use his hollow mask
in the manga the fight was off screened but we see that ichigo didnt take any damage
but in the anime we see him take a hit from gin (he was slightly at a disadvantage which makes sense as he didnt really have a advantage before too) and he managed to block his attack for a few seconds
so the amp here was likely x10
this supports everything arc said until now

the fight is on episode 301 around minute 5
 
Arc7Kuroi said:
Someone got a counter for how many times I’ve said the multiplier update doesn’t change the tiering for Bleach AP and dura?

The reason if you must know why I haven’t mentioned AP and dura was because they didn’t change. I he originally started the sandbox by including AP, dura, and speed. BUT upon realizing that AP/dura don’t change I was like “**** that, that’s unnecessary effort”. Like my bad for not saying that in the OP, but like Anonymous said I’m a broken record here. If a slight change within the same tier is worth taking precedence over my entire OP then by all means talk about it and @ me when you’re done.

And I agree with Sigurd and TOAA, this is different from saying “his speed increases several times” we are given a range. So to be the most accurate we have to acknowledge the ENTIRE range. Which can be done with “at least 5x, possibly 10x” or using the average of 7.5x. Also 10x obviously isn’t rare, as outside of the current time period of Bleach (said to be blessed with amazing Shinigami able to perform Bankai) it is know that a range of 5-10x exists. So it’s not like 10x inflates the values above what the author intended.
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Yeah U said it multiple times even I said it as well
 
Sigurd_Snake_in_The_Eye said:
I don’t think this is the same as an unknown multiplier. Several just means more than 2 but not many which is vague. This here is given a range of 5-10. I think it makes sense most characters Bankai would be the average level which is what he is suggesting as opposed to them all being rated below average.
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Something that I do think needs to be stated here is that the range we're given is in of itself an average, not the actual full range. This implies that bankai's can multiply by less than five and more than ten. Not sure if that changes how this conversation goes or anything like that, but I think that should be made clear.
 
Damage3245 said:
Regarding the multipliers, I don't know what the best way forward is here. Mitch seems mostly neutral as they're fine with 7.5x but thinks 5x would be safer, and I'm in agreement that sticking with a 5x multiplier would be safer and better overall.
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We should always go with the lower and safest end so I agree with 5 times.
 
AKM sama said:
We should always go with the lower and safest end so I agree with 5 times.
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I more or less agree with this also because of what @Duedate8898 pointed out just before AKM commented.

There’s another issue I have with applying these multipliers based on the statement itself, but not sure if I should delve into that now or if there’s going to be another thread about applying the multipliers after a multiplier number is accepted.
 
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