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- #201
56.25x is considered small here. Having done the sandboxes with just the multiplier it moved a couple of people from MHS to MHS+, what is primarily upgrading them in my OP rn is the Toshiro calc.
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Tying Up Bleach Speed Stuffs
- Thread starter Arc7Kuroi
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- #202
@USklaverei can you comment if your updated calc addressed the issues damage is talking about?
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Regarding the whole "X multiplier is considered small here" point, Im not quite understanding it.
Just because something on paper looks like a small jump, doesnt mean the results of it are small. Nor does it invalidate the point that stats can still be inflated, no matter how "small" or big a multiplier looks.
Just because something on paper looks like a small jump, doesnt mean the results of it are small. Nor does it invalidate the point that stats can still be inflated, no matter how "small" or big a multiplier looks.
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- #205
"For lower multipliers, like things much less than times 100, evidence can take the form of a clear increase in combat strength against priorly equal or superior opponents." ~VSBW Multipliers page
This is what I refer to by small multipliers, and how the wiki says a clear increase in strength is all that's needed to justify their use.
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Its not as much a matter of math issues, but how the multipliers themselves are applied. As King said above with the use of multiplier stacking.
This is also my response to Arc's recent reply.
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- #207
So are you saying 56.25x is a big problem?
If so I'd like to remind you that, Ichigo going Bankai + Hollow Mask only applies for Grimmjow fight period of time, because after that we don't even have a key for Pseudo Shikai Ichigo. So, yes Ichigo for a short period of time can jump a bit high from his "base" at the time to his strongest form, it's split of two entire transformations. Also, by the time Ichigo fights Grimmjow for the final time is when him being in his Pseudo Bankai state becomes his "base" considering how after Dordonni he doesn't fight anyone with his Pseudo Shikai form because it's too weak. The only real fight where Ichigo takes full advantage of jumping 56.25x in speed is against Dordonni. My point being even if you're iffy on 56.25x it's not something prevalent throughout a vast majority of the story, the other 99.9% of the time we are only seeing a jump of 7.5x in a fight.
There would be 3 fights in total where a character has their power multiplied by above 7.5x in a single fight: Ichigo vs Dordonni (56.25x), Kenpachi vs Gerard (52.5x), and Hikone vs Kenpachi (37.5x). Most of the other times it's anywhere from stuff like 2x (Byakuya hands), to 5x (Gentei Kaijo) to occasionally 7.5x (Bankai related transformations). Personally, I wouldn't see the issue if a 56.25x multiplier was used through every fight, but I recognize the concern of having a verse built off multipliers and being a bit wary do to a lack of feats. However, keep in mind that A) we have a lot of "incalculable" feats in Bleach because they don't fit criteria for this site (i.e. the numerous light related feats that we can't accept due to a strict policy on what we consider light speed) and B) that the author's introduce multipliers because it's a lot easier to convey an increase with a numerical jumps as opposed to drawing what they think is a more impressive feat every time (especially considering how Kubo just draws what he thinks are cool, like guns are all over the TYBW but characters are much faster than a gun could realistically be).
If I misinterpreted your message then ignore this lol.
If so I'd like to remind you that, Ichigo going Bankai + Hollow Mask only applies for Grimmjow fight period of time, because after that we don't even have a key for Pseudo Shikai Ichigo. So, yes Ichigo for a short period of time can jump a bit high from his "base" at the time to his strongest form, it's split of two entire transformations. Also, by the time Ichigo fights Grimmjow for the final time is when him being in his Pseudo Bankai state becomes his "base" considering how after Dordonni he doesn't fight anyone with his Pseudo Shikai form because it's too weak. The only real fight where Ichigo takes full advantage of jumping 56.25x in speed is against Dordonni. My point being even if you're iffy on 56.25x it's not something prevalent throughout a vast majority of the story, the other 99.9% of the time we are only seeing a jump of 7.5x in a fight.
There would be 3 fights in total where a character has their power multiplied by above 7.5x in a single fight: Ichigo vs Dordonni (56.25x), Kenpachi vs Gerard (52.5x), and Hikone vs Kenpachi (37.5x). Most of the other times it's anywhere from stuff like 2x (Byakuya hands), to 5x (Gentei Kaijo) to occasionally 7.5x (Bankai related transformations). Personally, I wouldn't see the issue if a 56.25x multiplier was used through every fight, but I recognize the concern of having a verse built off multipliers and being a bit wary do to a lack of feats. However, keep in mind that A) we have a lot of "incalculable" feats in Bleach because they don't fit criteria for this site (i.e. the numerous light related feats that we can't accept due to a strict policy on what we consider light speed) and B) that the author's introduce multipliers because it's a lot easier to convey an increase with a numerical jumps as opposed to drawing what they think is a more impressive feat every time (especially considering how Kubo just draws what he thinks are cool, like guns are all over the TYBW but characters are much faster than a gun could realistically be).
If I misinterpreted your message then ignore this lol.
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An issue I have with these multipliers are the tier jumps that the characters get without actual feats backing them up.
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To be fair, ignoring multipliers just because we don't like them and don't like that characters get higher feats without them is not valid reasoning to discredit using them, however I do admit that to be safe, we should use the 5x to be safe
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That's one of the justifications of using multipliers though. You need to have evidence of tier jumps. Also another issue I found is that we use 5x for Ichigos hollow for speed, but not for AP.
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That’s not an argument at all.
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I mean there are many characters on this site that have characters take huge jumps from low tiers to higher tiers and have the difference between a characters forms be 100000x in AP, but we take issue with a 50x increase because it comes from multipliers?
I mean it's a bit silly we're ok with the former, but not with the latter, not to mention that there are higher feats than what the multipliers place the characters at
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"The use of multipliers to gain new statistics is usually a controversially debated topic. The reason for that is that it allows characters to be evaluated as significantly more powerful, without ever demonstrating that degree of power in a confirmable way."
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That’s not an argument. That’s literally an explanation for the use of multipliers.
Read further and you’ll see the actual relevant information which are the list of regulations.
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No, it says that characters that significantly bump in tiers without actual feats on that level shows inconsistency with the use of said multipliers.
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- #216
The characters do show jumps in speed. And no character has significantly jumped tiers with the upgrade from 5x to 7.5x. A couple go from MHS to MHS+, as I said earlier the Toshiro feat is what is upgrading the characters. The multiplier doesn't even affect dura and AP ratings. I made the sandboxes I should know lol.
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Except there isn’t a significant bump...? If you have an issue with how people use multipliers take it elsewhere and make a thread on multipliers in general.
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There is a significant bump, we see characters go from baseline FTL all the way to 100 to 300x FTL which is a huge jump and no other feats close to that level. Why would I make a separate thread when I can discuss it here?
We also see characters go from baseline High 6-B all the way to High 6-A through multipliers.
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And there are characters who go from MHS to MFTL+. Get over it.
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- #220
That's solely related to the God Tiers, so this is not the thread for that, as God Tier scaling is its own planned separate thread. I include the God Tiers in the sandbox and scale them as we currently accept it here, but even the God Tiers don't jump 100 times from where they scale from.
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It's has everything to do with this thread since they achieved these stats through multipliers.
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- #222
They achieved MFTL through the 5x multiplier too, so it's not a thing of 5x vs 7.5x. And no it does not, I'll update the OP to reflect such.
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I know, which is why I dont agree with the usage of said multipliers.
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- #224
Which is something that only applies to the God Tiers, using that to say we shouldn't use multipliers for the whole verse is ridiculous.
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Personal feelings aren’t an argument. It’s in line with the multiplier regulations which is all that matters.
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It shows that inconsistency with the usage of the multipliers, it just so happens the best example is with the God tiers.
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- #227
Prove it inconsistent.
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No it's not since it shows massive tier jumps without evidence to back it up.
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That’s not an inconsistency. I doubt you even know what characters are involved or how they got it and you’re arguing inconsistency.
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Going from baseline FTL all the wat to 100 to 300x with no other feats on that level is an inconsistency with what is shown on the verse.
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- #231
Prove it inconsistent, jumping from x to y regardless of how large the jump is not inherently inconsistent.
Edit: The only serious feats the God Tiers have is fighting themselves. So "what is shown on the verse" is that the God Tiers are consistently above everyone else in the verse and are the only people capable of competing with themselves.
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They shouldn't be scaling 100 to 300x above what they scale to without the feats to back up said scaling.
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- #233
Why?
They show clear massive leaps in speed, upon going Bankai, Yhwach deems it necessary to use an instant speed attack to hax break Ichigo's Bankai. They are shown that the multipliers amplify their stats, you just can't calc it.
They have statements too to back up them being way above the rest of the verse. CFYOW has someone postulate that after seeing Hikone's Res only the likes of True Shikai Ichigo, Aizen, and Kenpachi could EASILY handle the kid.
We have some verses with accepted 250000x multipliers.
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We have "At Least" and "Likely Higher" or "Far Higher" for a reason.
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It's like arguing with a brick wall I swear.
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- #236
We also have in verse multipliers that can be used to place said characters instead of pretending we can't.
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Character A is FTL at 20% power. Character A removes seal on his power is now 100% Base power which brings him to FTL+. Character A adds another multiplier of 5 thus bringing him to MFTL.
Character A has multiple statements how his speed is beyond everyone else and they can’t see him moving. Spectators are FTL...
Character B scaled to Character A via keeping up with him effortlessly throughout all his amps.
Character B is the strongest outside of god tier.
Character C scales to Character B/A based on statements of him being capable of defeating Character A.
Character C who is a god tier eclipses Character B/A.
Character A has multiple statements how his speed is beyond everyone else and they can’t see him moving. Spectators are FTL...
Character B scaled to Character A via keeping up with him effortlessly throughout all his amps.
Character B is the strongest outside of god tier.
Character C scales to Character B/A based on statements of him being capable of defeating Character A.
Character C who is a god tier eclipses Character B/A.
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There are talks about the FTL feat being an outlier, just saying.
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Not sure how anyone would argue it is one but okay.
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- #240
The issue WoI is having isn't necessarily what they're tiered at but how they got tiered there.
Talks about it being outlier or you guys just think it's too high, there's a difference. Being above the rest of the verse at that point in time =/= outlier.
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