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Multipliers under 100x are considered small.
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Tying Up Bleach Speed Stuffs
- Thread starter Arc7Kuroi
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Hikone's Resureccion is by fusing with Ikkimikidomoe and that's when his "transcedent" reiatsu first appears and he creates a giant crater in the area. (The same feat the Brave Souls game animated) Are you sure you want to backscale base Kenpachi to Hisagi?
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56.25 times for Hollow Mask Bankai doesnt Seem that big of a Deal to deny it
As its considered not that big
& its consistent with story
Also about Ichigo's bankai he was mastering & devloping really well throughout these arcs so 7.5x should not be highball or a strech
As its considered not that big
& its consistent with story
Also about Ichigo's bankai he was mastering & devloping really well throughout these arcs so 7.5x should not be highball or a strech
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i agree with x7.5 too should be the best it isnt lowballing or highballing
and bump
this is what uryu said when ulquiorra went into his second release and he had previously felt ulquiorras cero oscuras which was used in his 1st release few chapters ago
and cero oscuras has a confirmed multiplier of x10
so ulquiorras second release should have a at least x10 multiplier (also supports many characters bankais being above x5 as ressurrection=bankai)
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@Zoro21043; Uryu says outright that the reason why he's reacting to it that way isn't just because it is powerful or massive, but because it feels alien to him.
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and cero oscuras wasnt like that so R2>a cero oscuras while in R1
also ulquiorra was trying to make ichigo despair if segunda etapa isnt above cero oscuras (even tho uryus statement already proves that) why would ulquiorra say "yet even facing me like this you still have the will to fight"
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That also means it was all powerful,massive & alien to him
Pretty much sure almost everyone scales second release at least 10x first release
"It feels like an ocean above the sky"
Pretty much sure almost everyone scales second release at least 10x first release
"It feels like an ocean above the sky"
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Who is this everyone? This is the first time I've seen it be suggested.
"Ocean above the sky" =/= 10x multiplier.
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- Thread starter
- #169
And Uryu is also acknowledging that part of the reason he is reacting is due to its raw power.
More reiatsu + denser reiatsu = more power
We see such multiple times as Ichigo manifests his reiatsu physically prior to confronting Yhwach. Yama manifests his reiatsu as a cloak of fire. And Ulq’s is so thick it feels like an ocean.
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- #170
The reason he’s saying 10x is because Segunda Etapa is stated and implied to be the most powerful thing Ulq has unleashed until that point, which would mean SE > R1 Cero Oscuras.
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Many YouTubrs, power scalers from various medias (even I saw bleach haters saying like this "meh ulquiorra is only 1000x Grimmjow, what he can do against Naruto chracters nothing get lost U bleach fanboy")
ocean above the sky ≠ 10x (i didnt even say it ,i am trying to move im a General area not an exact point) but the thing its implying to be stronger than Cero oscuras which he felt before
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Yeah pretty much like this
Actually I saw first time someone disagreeing with this
I saw this pretty much everyone agree with this in the past
So when I was a bit caught off guard
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Quick aside and forgive the spam:
Why are we being so tough on Bleach multipliers when for the Naruto verse it recently got accepted that Sage Mode is a 10x power multiplier for being superior to the Curse Mark. Meanwhile Bankai is stated to be a 5-10x increase, yet damage legitimately found nothing wrong with not using the multiplier at all because Yoruichi says “combat ability” instead of “physical statistics”. (Not saying the other HST don’t have it just as hard, just the first example that came to mind.)
Also, why are we having to push so hard to get a 7.5x multiplier accepted? Especially if 100 and below is a small multiplier?
Why are we being so tough on Bleach multipliers when for the Naruto verse it recently got accepted that Sage Mode is a 10x power multiplier for being superior to the Curse Mark. Meanwhile Bankai is stated to be a 5-10x increase, yet damage legitimately found nothing wrong with not using the multiplier at all because Yoruichi says “combat ability” instead of “physical statistics”. (Not saying the other HST don’t have it just as hard, just the first example that came to mind.)
Also, why are we having to push so hard to get a 7.5x multiplier accepted? Especially if 100 and below is a small multiplier?
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damage
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- #175
I have an idea that may help conclude this thread:
We should come to an agreement about what is the bare minimum encompassed in combat ability as Yoruichi puts it.
Personally, I’d say combat ability refers to at least any speed, power, and durability related statistic. I don’t think anyone would argue that speed (whether it be the speed of your blade or your movement), power (whether it be your muscles or the sharpness of your blade), and durability (the toughness of your skin or the rigid ness of your shield) are all combat oriented.
What I don’t think we can quantify within the multiplier are: physical characteristics (size, weight, shape, etc), and hax (poisons, hypnosis etc). My reasoning being Isshin states earlier on that the size of one’s blade has no barring on one’s actual capabilities, and we see plenty of massive and tiny Bankai that make their users more deadly opponents regardless. Obviously hax is hard to quantify, but we deal with this by not applying multipliers to the statistics of people who don’t display stat increases.
So I believe (unless stated otherwise), if a Bankai demonstrates any stat increase it should fall under the multiplier, and if it exhibits any other characteristics they shouldn’t be factored into the multiplier. Thus where I get my conclusion that Gin’s Bankai extends 5-10x faster than his Shikai.
We should come to an agreement about what is the bare minimum encompassed in combat ability as Yoruichi puts it.
Personally, I’d say combat ability refers to at least any speed, power, and durability related statistic. I don’t think anyone would argue that speed (whether it be the speed of your blade or your movement), power (whether it be your muscles or the sharpness of your blade), and durability (the toughness of your skin or the rigid ness of your shield) are all combat oriented.
What I don’t think we can quantify within the multiplier are: physical characteristics (size, weight, shape, etc), and hax (poisons, hypnosis etc). My reasoning being Isshin states earlier on that the size of one’s blade has no barring on one’s actual capabilities, and we see plenty of massive and tiny Bankai that make their users more deadly opponents regardless. Obviously hax is hard to quantify, but we deal with this by not applying multipliers to the statistics of people who don’t display stat increases.
So I believe (unless stated otherwise), if a Bankai demonstrates any stat increase it should fall under the multiplier, and if it exhibits any other characteristics they shouldn’t be factored into the multiplier. Thus where I get my conclusion that Gin’s Bankai extends 5-10x faster than his Shikai.
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@Arc7Kuroi; you should know I don't really agree with the 10x Sage Mode multiplier either. So far as I'm aware it hasn't been actually stated in-verse that Sage Mode is a superior or comparable multiplier to the Curse Mark.
Regarding your deduction on the Bankai multiplier; I still don't see what makes the extension/contraction of Gin's Bankai any different from any of the hax you've described. It's a property of the blade just like the size/weight/shape.
Also, just to note Gin's Bankai ability isn't just to increase the length/speed of his sword, it changes the nature of his ability by turning his sword into a poisonous dust and that dust expands and contracts before re-solidifying as a blade shape.
This is very different to his Shikai's ability which we can see is just the sword itself extending and shrinking.
Regarding your deduction on the Bankai multiplier; I still don't see what makes the extension/contraction of Gin's Bankai any different from any of the hax you've described. It's a property of the blade just like the size/weight/shape.
Also, just to note Gin's Bankai ability isn't just to increase the length/speed of his sword, it changes the nature of his ability by turning his sword into a poisonous dust and that dust expands and contracts before re-solidifying as a blade shape.
This is very different to his Shikai's ability which we can see is just the sword itself extending and shrinking.
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Sorry its maybe off topic but
Dont know about Sage Mode AP multiplier I really dont know about that
what I only know is Chakra multiplier is above 25x for Sage Mode (as base Naruto as 4x kakashi & 4 tails was100x kakashi , sage Mode surpassed that Version pretty easily & Has heavy Chakra)
Dont know about Sage Mode AP multiplier I really dont know about that
what I only know is Chakra multiplier is above 25x for Sage Mode (as base Naruto as 4x kakashi & 4 tails was100x kakashi , sage Mode surpassed that Version pretty easily & Has heavy Chakra)
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- Thread starter
- #178
The point isn’t whether it’s inherently correct or not. Last I checked it still got accepted. The point is you’re the polar opposite of someone who wanks verses, you lowball them to the point of inaccuracy. You’re not inherently correct because you’re staff, but I don’t think you can accept that. As in this case, everyone who has read and replied in thread agrees with this OP except you.
I’m under the impression that the reason we have group discussions is so we can collaborate on the most accurate middle ground. But as of late it’s been “does damage allow it?” this Bleach scaling that’s accepted is solely your scaling. So what’s the point of having a verse page where the community comes together to scale when it’s all decided by one person?
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@Arc7Kuroi; I updated my post to respond to your Bankai argument.
I've always said that more staff members should get involved, but predictably not a lot of people want to argue with a large, loud fanbase like the one that Bleach has. If the fanbase solely had their way, the highest possible interpretation of anything would be accepted. That's why there needs to be a Devil's Advocate like me to keep things in check.
I've always said that more staff members should get involved, but predictably not a lot of people want to argue with a large, loud fanbase like the one that Bleach has. If the fanbase solely had their way, the highest possible interpretation of anything would be accepted. That's why there needs to be a Devil's Advocate like me to keep things in check.
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- #180
Again you miss the point. I never said we switch to majority rules. Back when you tried to argue Ichigo wasn't 5-A, regardless of what I said you wouldn't concede until Elizhaa came in and sided with me, and even then rather than conceding to the better argument you said "I'll let it slide for now but I'll revisit it later". This isn't a case of "we need a devil's advocate" this is about your pride.
First explain to me how the speed of a sword is entirely hax and not a speed statistic. Gin's Bankai having multiple abilities doesn't mean the multiplier doesn't apply to the speed amp. Renji's Bankai can transform and change shape yet it is still an AP multiplier. Yama's Bankai can summon the dead, but it still amps statistics. Bankai aren't restricted to "hax-type" or "stat-type".
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i dont think most of us normal bleach fans would even accept those wanks
there isnt anyone here pushing 5D mugetsu and god tiers
everything arc said is reasonable if we were wanking we would go for x10 for every bankai even those like mayuri that dont show a stat increase but arc is proposing the midball of x7.5 only for those that show a stat increase
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Right. Bankai generally aren't as simply as that, but you're interpreting Yoruichi's statement as meaning that "increasing combat ability" refers solely to multiplying the user's statistics.
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- #183
No what I'm saying is, while combat ability is potentially vague, most would agree speed falls under combat ability. So since Gin's sword demonstrates a speed amp in Bankai, it is most likely the Bankai amp. Since out of what we can quantify statistics are easiest to apply multipliers too. I've also shown over and over again that the size of Bankai in Bleach aren't ever shown to correlate to the multiplier. SO in Gin's case the only ability of his Bankai that is quantifiably applicable to the multiplier is the speed of his blade.
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i dont think that is how he is interpreting that statement as he already clearly said he is proposing the x7.5 for those that have showcased a increase in their stats
and gins has clearly shown a increase in speed as ichigo believed its speed is its greatest attribute and in soul society in base he easily intercepted and blocked it(the shikai) while after all the amps he got in arrancar he had a harder time dodging and blocking his bankai
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No one is wanking Bleach that much
Even we are denying some Upgrades for Ichigo or Yhwach to 3-A & even 4-A
As for Fan consideration I am literally Fan of almost every shonen jump I read so far
I dont think anyone (maybe except few people) is trying to wank Bleach & getting it with their way
I dont See why Gin's bankai doesnt amp his Stat & scales to shikai as 7.5x
Where is the inconsistency?!?
Even we are denying some Upgrades for Ichigo or Yhwach to 3-A & even 4-A
As for Fan consideration I am literally Fan of almost every shonen jump I read so far
I dont think anyone (maybe except few people) is trying to wank Bleach & getting it with their way
I dont See why Gin's bankai doesnt amp his Stat & scales to shikai as 7.5x
Where is the inconsistency?!?
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Please invite some more staff members to give their thoughts. If we accept upgrading all of the multipliers to the average value of the range, then I think the Multipliers page should be updated to reflect that this is an option going forwards.
I've given my thoughts on the Toshiro calc to three other calc experts who can see where I'm coming from, so I'll type up my explanation here for why I think the Toshiro calc shouldn't be used. Might take a bit of time though.
I've given my thoughts on the Toshiro calc to three other calc experts who can see where I'm coming from, so I'll type up my explanation here for why I think the Toshiro calc shouldn't be used. Might take a bit of time though.
Ped2018
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Can't you mark them though? you're the only staff member here
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imho this just literally sound like "since i cant win by the rules i will change them so i do"
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- #190
It'd be nice if you @ the staff in here, so they can offer their opinions themselves. Especially seeing how a few threads ago you okayed a calc of mine, DT said I kept force constant (which was so blatantly incorrect anyone who actually read the calc would know force was not constant), and then I had to call you out because you blindly agreed with DT. So, understandably, I'm a bit weary about your "off-screen" consultation.
I still agree with USklav, seeing how the blade only nicked Toshiro's head, there exists a minimum distance Toshiro would have to have shifted his head as to not get skewered in the same time that it took the blade to nick his head.
I still agree with USklav, seeing how the blade only nicked Toshiro's head, there exists a minimum distance Toshiro would have to have shifted his head as to not get skewered in the same time that it took the blade to nick his head.
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Err, no, kind of the opposite.
I'm saying that if the change is accepted, then it should be added into the rules officially.
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I still think the 7.5x Multiplier is fine, but since it's about Combat Ability, I'm not sure why we universally accept that as Attack Power, Durability, and Speed, it realistically could only be one of those since it's not explicitly stated to amp all those stats the same number, now to be fair we do know that a lot of Bankai's amp all stats, but how are we sure that it's all stats that get the 5x to 10x, some of those stats could only get a vague increase
It's this vagueness that also makes me believe sticking with the 5x is also a valid option
It's this vagueness that also makes me believe sticking with the 5x is also a valid option
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- #194
Yeah when I say combat ability = speed, dura, and ap, I don't mean at the same time. I should've been more clear. Because I'm only arguing the Bankai multiplier be applied to Gin's extension speed. Not his dura or ap.
Precisely why I think we should use 7.5x (or at least 5x, possibly 10x), seeing how we can't be sure it's 5 or 10 times but it has the same odds as being 10x as it does 5x.
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I don’t even know what’s going on anymore lol
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@Arc7Kuroi; why not his AP, out of curiosity? Do you believe he gets no stronger when switching from Shikai to Bankai?
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Well I guess saying his AP jumped 7.5x would be equally valid, but since we can scale Gin to Ichigo we don't really have to use multipliers to scale his AP. Or downscaling his Shikai AP by 7.5x from Bankai Ichigo would be equally valid. There's just easier alternatives, aka his fights with Ichigo. Again forgive me for being unclear, but when I say only speed for Gin's multiplier is because speed is all that matters for this thread.
The reason I'm avid about scaling his Shikai using multipliers is we don't have any statements for it and the feats with it are used to calc other character's speed.
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Anyway, regarding the calculation here.
The key part of the calc, as far as I can tell, is that his assumption is that Toshiro moved his head downwards by about 3 centimeters in the time that it took Gin's sword to extend the calced 2 millimetres between the tip of the blade and Toshiro's eye.
The problem is that Toshiro didn't simply duck under the blade; he leaned his whole body backwards, as in, he would be moving his head away from the blade and it still cut him on his forehead. In other words, the timeframe of him dodging the sword isn't as simple as just it crossing the 2 millimetres separating them. It would be longer than that because Toshiro's head wouldn't be in the same position after those 2 millimeters were crossed.
By moving backwards Toshiro could be at roughly the same as speed as the blade and still get his head mostly out of the way instead of needing to be 15 times faster than it.
This non-artistic diagram is a rough example of what I mean. USklaverei's calc assumes the left side, but the right is what is more accurately happening going by Toshiro's position after the dodge.
Toshiro's movement, overall, is extremely little compared to the position of the sword after Toshiro fully completed his partial dodge. From what we can tell of where the two of them ended up in this 2nd panel, they're moving at comparable speeds.
The key part of the calc, as far as I can tell, is that his assumption is that Toshiro moved his head downwards by about 3 centimeters in the time that it took Gin's sword to extend the calced 2 millimetres between the tip of the blade and Toshiro's eye.
The problem is that Toshiro didn't simply duck under the blade; he leaned his whole body backwards, as in, he would be moving his head away from the blade and it still cut him on his forehead. In other words, the timeframe of him dodging the sword isn't as simple as just it crossing the 2 millimetres separating them. It would be longer than that because Toshiro's head wouldn't be in the same position after those 2 millimeters were crossed.
By moving backwards Toshiro could be at roughly the same as speed as the blade and still get his head mostly out of the way instead of needing to be 15 times faster than it.
This non-artistic diagram is a rough example of what I mean. USklaverei's calc assumes the left side, but the right is what is more accurately happening going by Toshiro's position after the dodge.
Toshiro's movement, overall, is extremely little compared to the position of the sword after Toshiro fully completed his partial dodge. From what we can tell of where the two of them ended up in this 2nd panel, they're moving at comparable speeds.
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Easy fix, we know how far away his pupil is from the slash on his forehead, and we know the sword to forehead slash distance, so you got two legs of a triangle, you can find the third (aka the horizontal distance the sword traveled). Albeit the slash is so close to his pupil, that it wouldn't lead to any drastic changes in the value of the calc. The max the blade could move in the distance Toshiro moved is gash to pupil + pupil to blade. Actually, if you click the links at the end of @USklaverei calc I think he adjusted for that.
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It's because Sage Mode is just a regular multiplier, and we don't apply it that much. The Sage Mode multiplier might/will be removed and just shown w/ feats, since town level people went up to mountain with feats, but city with multiplier. Sage Mode also tells us what is multiplied, which is why we don't say (10x faster with Sage Mode)
Bleach's powerscaling is founded on multipliers with a Dc feat here and there. If you look on Ichigo's profile, half the justification is (5x with [insert transformation here]). Plus, it has a risky multiplier stacking component.
Because it stacks, badly.
Ichigo's hollow mask with bankai currently is a 25x from base. A 7.5x multiplier would get it from 25x base to the range of 37.5 to 56.25x from base. You can see how wild it is now.
For example, if Ichigo is 2x FTL, the old multiplier would put him in the middle of FTL+, while the newer ones would put him in MFTL instantly.
It would take 4x FTL in base for the old multiplier to reach borderline MFTL, while you can barely be FTL and get to MFTL right off the bat.
The multiplier could throw somebody 2 tiers up with the right usage, which would inflate 90% of the current bleach profiles.
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