Two Overlords Battle to the "death"

[Yobo_Blue]

tl;dr is show me some feats of Garmadon just waving his hand and poofing his enemies out of existence, since that's what you're implying. Reality Warping is almost never portrayed as this "You're dead" move and I don't recall that in Ninjago either.

That's not what I said. I said creation is matter manipulation that would one shot Ainz since he's a glass cannon, reality warping is a separate ability like the Megaweapon

Also, Appraise Magic Item isn't exactly the best spell to use in battle.

 

[Akreious]

Then show me a scene where Garmadon used Matter Manipulation/Creation to 1-shot his enemies?

 

[Yobo_Blue]

Then show me a scene where Garmadon used Matter Manipulation/Creation to 1-shot his enemies?

That's not what I said. He hasn't used creation to one shot anyone, but it (and literally anything else) will one shot Ainz. I specifically mention Creation because it, TK, and RW can't exactly be dodged

 

[Yobo_Blue]

Also, if your wondering how The Megaweapon works in action, it's just a better version of Wish Upon a Star

 

[OpMasada]

If garmadon doesn't simply murder ainz with an apparently planet-universal level weapon, I doubt ainz would use another death spell in the event that garmadon seemingly resists from it, he would most likely go for high tier physical spells like he did in vol 13.... I'm going to vote ainz winning via spamming time stop and reality slash.

 

[Yobo_Blue]

Reality slash nulls regen?

 

[OpMasada]

What regen?

 

[Yobo_Blue]

Low-High

 

[OpMasada]

Ah, nevermind then. I don't think ainz can kill someone with that high of a regen and durability with his attacks, so I vote garmadon.

 

[Yobo_Blue]

Okay.

 

[Akreious]

...

Black.

Hole.

No? Nothing?!

 

[Yobo_Blue]

I'll let you two handle that.

 

[OpMasada]

Black Hole could work, but ainz has literally never used it again other than in vol 1, so I highly doubt he would use it before garmadon presumably matter-haxes him.

 

[OpMasada]

Oh wait, the range on his profile says planetary to universal, and that he was capable of attacking others in another dimension. I don't think bfr would work.

 

[Dargoo_Faust]

Black Hole could work, but ainz has literally never used it again other than in vol 1, so I highly doubt he would use it before garmadon presumably matter-haxes him.

Yeah, my vote is still firmly for Garmadon.

 

[DeathNoodles]

Wait, what about Ainz's Hellflame? From what I can tell, that ability is explicitly stated to be able to burn the target into ashes. Last I've checked, being incinerated into ashes beats Low-High Regenerationn (as it would require Mid-High Regenerationn to recover from that). And based from his profile, Garmadon doesn't have Mid-High Regenerationn, nor does he have resistance to Fire Manipulation at that level

 

[OpMasada]

I will use the same argument for that as black hole, he has never used it at any time other than vol 1. Doubt.

 

[OpMasada]

My memory of ninjago is very faint........but is garmadon's age manip common? I remember him using it on his son, in one episode. Was it his son? Maybe it was the other ninjas.

 

[Akreious]

Ainz used it on Dominion Authority to utterly humiliate the Sunlight Scripture. It simply disappearing is MUCH more demoralizing and, dare I say it, "Fun" for Ainz than to have it just plop over dead from a Death Spell.

Plus, literally every other enemy he's fought can be more conveniently killed by Instant Death. The only time he couldn't (Shalltear) is someone who is superior to a lot of his stats, has countermeasures for his main go-to (Time Stop and Death Hax), as well as being extremely mobile so actually catching her in a Black hole would be difficult to say the least. PLUS he already planned the entire battle out to get her to use up all her skills and abilities so that he can finish her off with certainty.

The "Only" time he's shown it is also a time where he used it on a fodder that poses no threat to him. So why wouldn't Ainz use Black Hole when his innate detection for Undead (Garmadon literally has "Undead Warlord" as a classification) means that he won't use any Instant Death as those are worthless anyways in a battle against another Undead.

There's also an argument to be made that Frost Pain Modified could probably freeze Garmadon frozen as it's able to counteract Hellflame, at least for awhile. Said Hellflame was able to heat up a Mid-Level sword in seconds and melt it down.

Also if Ainz casts Perfect Unknowable or hell, even Invisibility, Garmadon lacks a way to detect Ainz, Ainz could also use Control Amnesia as well so that Garmadon forgets the last hour, along with the fact that he's supposed to fight Ainz.

The argument that Garmadon 1-shots is under the assumption that A) He never talks in the battle (Yeah no, Garmadon talks A LOT.) B) Ainz goes in head-first (Also no. Ainz will never go in head-first against an unknown enemy and he will definitely set up traps and countermeasures. Hell he gave everyone World Items just in case as well as changed his entire gearset to counteract Shalltear's. The only reason why he would ever take on hits is against enemies and attacks he knows to be fodder to him.) and C) That Ainz doesn't simply teleport to kilometers away, do information scouting, change his gear setup, and THEN proceed to fight. (BFR requires that Ainz not be a threat for a Week).

 

[DeathNoodles]

I will use the same argument for that as black hole, he has never used it at any time other than vol 1. Doubt.

I'm pretty sure it's perfectly in-character for Ainz to dish out those spells (and delay them) during time stops once he finds out that Garmadon has survived and regenerated from his instant death spells (though I doubt Garmadon can survive that as the undead of Ninjago-verse doesn't seem to show any resistance to Death Manipulation, based on their profiles. Verse Equalisation can only get you so far you know, especially when a character from one setting hasn't proven to have resistance to such) and other durability-bypassing spells. Ainz is pretty paranoid at times, so I don't see why he wouldn't dish out Black Hole or Hellflame in desperation.

A character only showing to use an ability one time doesn't necessarily mean they won't use it at all, especially if they find that circumstances requires them to use them, and I don't see why it should be any different in this case.

 

[Akreious]

Is Garmadon actually resistant though?

I mean sure he's labelled as "Undead" but from the looks of things, there's no difference between living Garmadon and Undead Garmadon. Besides a change of skin colour of course. Didn't the NInjas go to the realm of the dead fine too? What makes Garmadon "Undead" if just being restricted there doesn't actually mean he's like the skeletons? Did he die and it's the spirit that's the antagonist against the ninjas in Season 1?

Also, no. If he has no resistance against Death Hax, Garmadon is flat out not resisting Grasp Heart. This is because despite what the flavour text says (Which I know you're going to bring up), in the game Yggdrasil, you resist Grasp Heart by having Death Immunity. What does this mean? It means that Grasp Heart isn't physical. You can't regenerate from it.

Plus there's always the chance that Ainz opts for True Death or Death, both of which is just "You're dead" with no mention of hearts or whatever. Or Ainz could turn on his Despair Aura V and teleport next to Garmadon. That works too.

 

[DeathNoodles]

Is Garmadon actually resistant though?

I mean sure he's labelled as "Undead" but from the looks of things, there's no difference between living Garmadon and Undead Garmadon. Besides a change of skin colour of course. Didn't the NInjas go to the realm of the dead fine too? What makes Garmadon "Undead" if just being restricted there doesn't actually mean he's like the skeletons? Did he die and it's the spirit that's the antagonist against the ninjas in Season 1?

Also, no. If he has no resistance against Death Hax, Garmadon is flat out not resisting Grasp Heart. This is because despite what the flavour text says (Which I know you're going to bring up), in the game Yggdrasil, you resist Grasp Heart by having Death Immunity. What does this mean? It means that Grasp Heart isn't physical. You can't regenerate from it.

Plus there's always the chance that Ainz opts for True Death or Death, both of which is just "You're dead" with no mention of hearts or whatever. Or Ainz could turn on his Despair Aura V and teleport next to Garmadon. That works too.

Well, unless a race from one setting has shown resistance to a type of ability, they wouldn't have resistance to that same type of ability from an another setting. Saying otherwise is a flawed logic, and should not be used (especially since NLF gets mixed in).

So, unless I see any proof of the Ninjago-verse undead having resistance to Death Manipulation, they aren't resisting it. Period.

Edit: I'm going to be busy with something. I'll get back with this later.

 

[Akreious]

Uhh. Yeah. I was agreeing with you...?

I'm just thinking of a reasoning or how Ninjago's Undead would resist Death Manipulation right now. I'm even rewatching season 1 with every Garmadon scene. So far the only reason I see why Garmadon is listed as "the Undead Warlord" is because he spent a long time in the underworld and gotten too used to it. It's like me staying underground for 90% of my life and calling myself the "Mole Warlord", and that I have resistance to darkness but weakness to light.

Sure I can't go outside like Garmadon (At least for Season 1), and sure I'm used to the Darkness/Underworld like Garmadon, but that doesn't make me immune to Death hax.

 

[Yobo_Blue]

Undead is because he A. Is literally a piece of charred flesh with a exposed rib cage and B. Is stated to be one in the comics. I'm 90% that that surviving that level of damage to your body would mean that grasp heart isn't going to kill you. And yes, living Garmadon looks like a normal person.

It's also less of a assumption to say that Ainz can kill the undead then it is to say that he can't without TGOALID, though you can ask in the Q&A board if you want.

 

[Akreious]

Except that he was never stated to flat out be dead? Sure hes resilient but that isnt going to stop death hax.

Also you must ignored my posts. Grasp Heart is not merely crushing one's heart.

 

[Yobo_Blue]

Let's get something straight. Ninjago isn't a anime with a rating that lets them get away with explicitly saying that "he's dead lol." If he's a piece of flesh stuck in the underworld, with half of his front missing and is said to be undead in the comics, it doesn't take a genius to draw the conclusion.

I mean, that's how we treat Death Manipulation here. It's confusing yes, so I'd say make a Q&A post about it.

 

[Iapitus_The_Impaler]

this is a good match

 

[Akreious]

Let's get something straight. Ninjago isn't a anime with a rating that lets them get away with explicitly saying that "he's dead lol." If he's a piece of flesh stuck in the underworld, with half of his front missing and is said to be undead in the comics, it doesn't take a genius to draw the conclusion.
I mean, that's how we treat Death Manipulation here. It's confusing yes, so I'd say make a Q&A post about it.

Actually can you provide the comic scans that says he's Undead?

Also again, analogy. I can spend 90% of my life underground and be just as adversed to the sun (Living World) as Garmadon is but I won't truly be a "Mole Warlord".

Actually, looking at episode summaries and such, when he was reverted back to human form, he wasn't "revived". The evil energy that made him evil just left him. No resurrection, nothing. You don't simply "Drain" the energy of an undead and they're magically alive again even in Ninjago.

Edit: Oh yeah and I have yet to see any mentions of him having a chunk of his body ripped out. He was simply banished in all the reference materials from the show, so Comic proof is going to be reallly needed.

 

[Yobo_Blue]

I mean, you can't exactly say he's being revived in a kid show, because that would imply he was dead the whole time.

 

[Yobo_Blue]

Two things

He's missing his front half and his ribs are exposed, so I'd say a good chunk is missing at least

I'll get the scans in a bit, but I have a hard time for anything that isn't on ***************

 

[Akreious]

Yeah I honestly would've tried to find them myself but there' isn't really a kisscomic version of *********. ;D

eh fair enough. Although kids nowadays are far more f-cked up than before, probably more messed up than me. They know all about death and murder now!

 

[OpMasada]

>There isn't a kisscomic version

There's literally a button that says "Comic List" near the "Manga List" button.

 

[DeathNoodles]

Undead is because he A. Is literally a piece of charred flesh with a exposed rib cage and B. Is stated to be one in the comics. I'm 90% that that surviving that level of damage to your body would mean that grasp heart isn't going to kill you. And yes, living Garmadon looks like a normal person.

It's also less of a assumption to say that Ainz can kill the undead then it is to say that he can't without TGOALID, though you can ask in the Q&A board if you want.

Ainz can't kill the Overlord-verse Undead due to the fact that the undead there have explicit proof that they are resistant (immune by their verse' so standards) to instant death abilities. Unless the Undead in Ninjago-verse has proof that they can resist Death Manipulation as well, we do not assume that the Undead of the Ninjago-verse has the same resistance/feats as the undead of the Overlord-verse. I don't think that's how Verse Equalisation works. Either you have proof, or you don't.

That's the equivalent of saying that the dragons from one setting can resist time stop, thus when faced with an another dragon from an another setting (which has no proof that they can resist time stop), that other dragon can resist time stop as well because they are a dragon. See how flawed such a logic is?

Regardless how species/races are treated in each settings, if one race doesn't show that they have that same resistance or feat as the same type of race from an another setting, then they simply don't. Saying otherwise is both NLF and a flawed logic.

 

[Yobo_Blue]

Except it's not a matter of Verse Equalized like you're saying, but rather of killing something already dead, which is the exact reason Overlords dead have resistance

 

[DeathNoodles]

Except it's not a matter of Verse Equalized like you're saying, but rather of killing something already dead, which is the exact reason Overlords dead have resistance

Unless the Undead of Ninjago-verse have explicit proof that they are resistant (or immune by their verse's standards) to instant death abilities for those same reasons, we don't assume that they have resistance to Death Manipulation, regardless of whether or not you're killing "something that is already dead".

The only exceptions for undeads that we automatically assume should have resistance/immunity to Death Manipulation are the incorporeal type such as ghost or spiritual entities, as they don't even have a physical body to die with, thus should only be affected by the likes of Soul Manipulation rather than standard Death Manipulation. And last I've checked, Garmadon is neither a disembodied ghost nor a spiritual entity.

Either you have feats or some type of proof, or you don't. It's that simple.

What's next? The zombies from the Resident Evil-verse have resistance to Death Manipulation because they are zombies? :L

 

[Yobo_Blue]

No, we consider undead to have resistance to death by default. You're just repeating the same thing.

If you're really doubting me that much, ask on the Question Board and someone will give you a answer

 

[DeathNoodles]

No, we consider undead to have resistance to death by default. You're just repeating the same thing.

If you're really doubting me that much, ask on the Question Board and someone will give you a answer

So, having Type 7 immortality means characters such as Jason Voorhess, Alex Mercer, and Edo Tensei zombies (Naruto) are unaffected by conventional Death Manipulation... That's just great then. Such a flawed logic, but oh well.

Nevertheless, does Garmadon have resistance to Mind Manipulation? I can't even seem to find any hints of Mind Manipulation (or resistance to such) in his profile.

 

[Yobo_Blue]

Yeah. I'd you want, you can make a CRT

No.

 

[DeathNoodles]

Yeah. I'd you want, you can make a CRT

No.

Okay.

Well, we have a problem here. You see, Ainz has abilities that allows him to control the Undead... Undead Control (ripped straight from the Overlord wikia).

 

[Yobo_Blue]

I mean


He didn't start with it when he fought the fodder undead IIRC, but you do have a point. He seems to time stop more often though.