Tsuki Ga Michibiku Isekai Douchuu General Discussion Thread

[YungManzi]

Makoto's power bestowal

Also, I don't think Shiki taking Makoto's used rings and making powers based on them counts as power bestowal.

Although I have something else for power bestowal for Makoto;

“Ah! Damn it! So it won’t work if I don’t give it resistance to the petrification itself huh. Then how about this?!” (Makoto)

After meditating, Makoto once again puts his hand on the table and pours magic power.

The two Gorgons watch attentively. Even if it was only for an instant, they lost their words after seeing the table turned back from its petrified state. On the other hand, Ema didn’t show much agitation and is looking at Makoto. The girl that got surprised every time by Makoto is already gone.

This time, matching the words of Makoto, the table that returned to its wooden state didn’t turn back to stone.

Even after a while, it didn’t turn into stone again.

“Unbelievable”Chapter110

He gave a table petrification resistance.

 

[EL_xWatcher1234x]

1) the magic power in those rings manifested as a skill by itself no one did anything.

2) He literally pour magic power into the table, which prove my previous point: Magic = magic resistance
Magic can effect matter which give him transmutation and the reason they couldn't effect it is because it they will need to have more magic than Makoto
or because it was already transmuted by someone stronger than them.
It kind of explain how Alte's lightning wasn't able to petrify Makoto's silver arms or instantly end Tomoe (It's been a while since I read it)

so yeah, power bestowal through giving people or object magic power.

 

[YungManzi]

I’m building an argument PIR negs mid-Godly regeneration. Possibly High Godly.

 

[Expectro2000xxx]

PIR indeed are EE, not sure about NEP though, someone more knowledgeable in NEP (like DT) should be asked about it. And in principle there is no particular motive to think it wouldn't work in comparable foes.

I’m building an argument PIR negs mid-Godly regeneration. Possibly High Godly.

You're smoking, it didn't even showed to erase souls (if that was the case then Waterfall would be unable to reincarnate and that definitely wasn't mentioned), you need direct a solid proof for things like that which PIR definitely don't have.

 

[YungManzi]

PIR indeed are EE, not sure about NEP though, someone more knowledgeable in NEP (like DT) should be asked about it. And in principle there is no particular motive to think it wouldn't work in comparable foes.

You're smoking, it didn't even showed to erase souls (if that was the case then Waterfall would be unable to reincarnate and that definitely wasn't mentioned), you need direct a solid proof for things like that which PIR definitely don't have.

Was it stated that destroying the soul makes SDs unable to reincarnate? From my understanding, Superior Dragons can reincarnate no matter what happens to them (Besides conceptual erasure or something).

One thing it did do is erase her magic power, and magic power is just as immaterial as souls in the verse... at least functionally it's as immaterial as souls are in other verses (Tsuki ga souls may be more immaterial, but magic power is also immaterial)

PIR and illusion hax is about to be some heat tho, I actually have statements of her illusions also being called "Dreams", "Fantasy", "Not Real", and even "Voids".
So it supports the whole subjective reality granting NEP thing.

 

[YungManzi]

The Mid to High Godly neg argument has more to do with what Magic and illusions are than Tomoe's actual ability.

I couldn't make the argument if they were just material things or even baseline immaterial/nonexistent.

But yeah, there's a few more things I'm unclear on with regards to magic, so I'm continuing the binge to hopefully find some information on it.

 

[EL_xWatcher1234x]

PIR indeed are EE, not sure about NEP though, someone more knowledgeable in NEP (like DT) should be asked about it. And in principle there is no particular motive to think it wouldn't work in comparable foes.

You're smoking, it didn't even showed to erase souls (if that was the case then Waterfall would be unable to reincarnate and that definitely wasn't mentioned), you need direct a solid proof for things like that which PIR definitely don't have.

She just turn people or object into mist or the opposite when she turn her mist into an object (arrows)

I don't think that's EE or subjective reality, it's just transmutation the rest are just flowery word

Superior dragons don't actually reincarnate they just reborn like the phoenix, Root even asked the sand dragon how to do it
which explain how they couldn't do it because Sofia absorb their magic (soul), so anything that happen to their soul or magic will prevent them from coming back

Again everything from matter to soul and skills are created from magic (energy)
so effecting could be done with by just effecting magic power

 

[Expectro2000xxx]

Was it stated that destroying the soul makes SDs unable to reincarnate? From my understanding, Superior Dragons can reincarnate no matter what happens to them (Besides conceptual erasure or something).

One thing it did do is erase her magic power, and magic power is just as immaterial as souls in the verse... at least functionally it's as immaterial as souls are in other verses (Tsuki ga souls may be more immaterial, but magic power is also immaterial)

PIR and illusion hax is about to be some heat tho, I actually have statements of illusions also being called "Dreams", "Fantasy", "Not Real", and even "Voids".
So it supports the whole subjective reality granting NEP thing.

Reincarnation in general by default is already assumed to be based on the soul (and iirc from how they arr treated in chapters like the gate god and in the extra chapters with the bunch of gods talks), you would need proof that their reincarnation is based on something more fundamental than.

That doesn't mean that soul = mana, you need direct proof for that. And additionally you would need proof that PIR make impossible to regenerate to beings able to regenerate from the soul, which I don't remember it being the case.

 

[YungManzi]

Superior dragons don't actually reincarnate they just reborn like the phoenix, Root even asked the sand dragon how to do it
which explain how they couldn't do it because Sofia absorb their magic (soul), so anything that happen to their soul or magic will prevent them from coming back

I agree here, though Idk if magic power = soul.

I know she absorbed their power, but I always saw it as the reason they couldn't reincarnate is because she took their powers away (Which included reincarnation). I don't think that's the same as negging the reincarnation.

 

[YungManzi]

That doesn't mean that soul = mana, you need direct proof for that. And additionally you would need proof that PIR make impossible to regenerate to beings able to regenerate from the soul, which I don't remember it being the case.

I don't think soul = mana.

Reincarnation in general by default is already assumed to be based on the soul (and iirc from how they arr treated in chapters like the gate god and in the extra chapters with the bunch of gods talks), you would need proof that their reincarnation is based on something more fundamental than.

Do you guys know where these reincarnation statements are? Chapter-wise?

 

[YungManzi]

Also, I'm pretty sure memories and consciousness are directly tied to one's soul; which is why the Superior dragons defeated by Sofia all reincarnated with memories.

At least based on the Tree punishment soul/memory statement.

 

[Expectro2000xxx]

I don't think soul = mana.

Do you guys know where these reincarnation statements are? Chapter-wise?

You are equating eliminate mana as eliminate the soul though, which would mean that mana = soul.

Don't know, the gate god and the souls powers I think is around the 200 and the gods talks in the extra chapter no idea.

 

[EL_xWatcher1234x]

Root literally extract the egg (soul) from sofia

I mention it more than once they can turn magic into matter: like Makoto silver arms , Root mentioned normal people will be able to create sand grains at best, but because Makoto has alot of mana he can actually use it

Soul is created from magic: goddess created hyumans souls , Root created superior dragons, maybe Alte putting her soul (magic) in her weapon was possible because of this, there is also the talking Katana ( I don't remember much about him)

Skill could manifest from magic like Shiki 13 steps that he gain after the magic from Makoto's rings enter his body, possibly this apply to the inhabitant of the goddess world (remember they have different physiology)

So maybe everything could be created from magic and interacting with soul is just interacting with magic (I remember someone mentioning that hymans will die if the Goddess die)

 

[Expectro2000xxx]

Root literally extract the egg (soul) from sofia

I mention it more than once they can turn magic into matter: like Makoto silver arms , Root mentioned normal people will be able to create sand grains at best, but because Makoto has alot of mana he can actually use it

Soul is created from magic: goddess created hyumans souls , Root created superior dragons, maybe Alte putting her soul (magic) in her weapon was possible because of this, there is also the talking Katana ( I don't remember much about him)

Skill could manifest from magic like Shiki 13 steps that he gain after the magic from Makoto's rings enter his body, possibly this apply to the inhabitant of the goddess world (remember they have different physiology)

So maybe everything could be created from magic and interacting with soul is just interacting with magic (I remember someone mentioning that hymans will die if the Goddess die)

You are making various assumptions that aren't supported, with some quite big leaps in logic.

 

[YungManzi]

hmm... I'm split on souls = magic power.

“Yeah. I can materialize magic power. I can also return it to its natural state as well. The minus is that I can’t take out its visibility, but I had another method to hide it anyways. That defensive power, is just like how I showed you just now” (Makoto)

“Rona, what is the materialization of magic power? Making things with magic power?” (Io)

“It is probably different. What Raidou is doing is… giving the physical attribute to magic power. Is how I think” (Rona)

“In other words, that mass of magic power shaped as the upper half of a hyuman, if it wanted to, it would be able to exchange fists as well? Isn’t that awesome?! If it is possible to deploy it in that way, magicians would also be able to add to their defense” (Io)

^It's definitely non-physical unless someone makes it physical tho

You are equating eliminate mana as eliminate the soul though, which would mean that mana = soul.

Don't know, the gate god and the souls powers I think is around the 200 and the gods talks in the extra chapter no idea.

Well... My larger point was that magic is as immaterial as normal souls in other verses, so it should work on the souls of other verses and be listed accordingly even if it has no statements of working on souls in-verse.

 

[Expectro2000xxx]

^It's definitely non-physical unless someone makes it physical tho

Well... My larger point was that magic is as immaterial as normal souls in other verses, so it should work on the souls of other verses and be listed accordingly even if it has no statements of working on souls in-verse.

I mean, pretty sure most verses treat mana as something non-physical, at least I don't really remember cases where is treated as physical in the same sense as normal matter.

 

[YungManzi]

I mean, pretty sure most verses treat mana as something non-physical, at least I don't really remember cases where is treated as physical in the same sense as normal matter.

I think we assume mana is just a fantasy physical energy unless stated otherwise, at least that used to be the standard.

Because IRL energy is completely physical.

 

[YungManzi]

Also for the NEP thing; so Tomoe's power is normally referred to as being able to manipulate the boundary between fantasy/dreams/illusions and reality.

I found an instance of the opposite of reality also being referred to as void by Makoto.

“If it is in battle, there’s absolutely no problem at all, but to use it in daily life situation, the bottleneck is that it is a power that can only be used for a short period of time. When Tomoe is silver haired, she obtains the ability to strengthen the vague sensation of the boundary between reality and void.”~ Chapter 289

So illusions = NEP kek.

 

[Expectro2000xxx]

I think we assume mana is just a fantasy physical energy unless stated otherwise, at least that used to be the standard.

Because IRL energy is completely physical.

Yeah, but is always (or at least most of the time) treated different than common irl energy. Like, name at least one or two verses that you know were mana is just like electricity for example.

 

[YungManzi]

Yeah, but is always (or at least most of the time) treated different than common irl energy. Like, name at least one or two verses that you know were mana is just like electricity for example.

I'm pretty sure Fate and Naruto both basically have like a second nervous system where "energy" flows through them. They also have statements of it being not exactly being physical tho.

 

[Expectro2000xxx]

I'm pretty sure Fate and Naruto both basically have like a second nervous system where "energy" flows through them. They also have statements of it being not exactly being physical tho.

Fate mana circuits are something ingraved in the soul (which btw is also higher dimensional), and chakra isn't exactly mana, and as you admit they are also treated different than normal energy/matter.

 

[YungManzi]

Fate mana circuits are something ingraved in the soul (which btw is also higher dimensional), and chakra isn't exactly mana, and as you admit they are also treated different than normal energy/matter

yeah, but my point was that if they didn't have those statements, then they would be assumed physical. Also, they kinda do move like electricity in the body lol

Also, what do you think about the void statement from Makoto?

 

[EL_xWatcher1234x]

yeah, but my point was that if they didn't have those statements, then they would be assumed physical. Also, they kinda do move like electricity in the body lol

Also, what do you think about the void statement from Makoto?

I agree with magic being energy that could change from physical to non physical like Makoto's armor

That's just exaggeration especially from Makoto, the dude literally keep saying stuff without proof, like how Hibiki can make the impossible possible (lol)
beside that's PIR is just Tomoe turning someone into mist or mist into something else but at the end it still magic
(I will agree with PIR being some kind of transmutation)

Tomoe turn people into mist

When Tomoe points her arm at Waterfall, wind blew.

No magic power was used, it was genuine wind.

“Wind? What does this have to do with anyth—ing?!!” (Waterfall)

“…”

“My body has turned to mist?!” (Waterfall)

“Eternal dreams, illusions and reality; I wonder where is the boundary between those two.” (Tomoe)

Tomoe mutters as if monologuing.

The body of Waterfall begins to dim away from her legs and wings first, as if being drifted away by the wind.

Just like how Waterfall felt, it was as if wind was washing away mist; a strange spectacle that felt illusory.

“Do you think an illusion will—!” (Waterfall)

Waterfall immediately judged that what was happening was an illusion.

Even when she tried to wave it away or activate a spell, it was useless. She couldn’t understand the situation at all.

“It is pointless-ja. As long as you doubt it for a single instant, your very body will turn into an illusion itself. There’s no path but disappearing-ja.” (Tomoe)

“A spell that can turn others into illusions, something like that…a power like that…” (Waterfall)

“Then, are you going to accept attacks turning into illusions? Well, interpret it in whichever way you want. It is admirable that even when you are only a head, you still didn’t show fear.” (Tomoe) ch 218

Turning someone (matter) into mist with magic doesn't count as NEP or EE or even subjective reality, the other just use flowery words to exaggerate

Tomoe turn mist into something else

“[Dancing Bow, Septen—?!” (Haku)

“Septentrion, right?” (Tomoe)

Aiming for a surprise attack, the hand of Haku shone and her whip shoots seven light arrows.

Right now, I can’t use my ability of changing reality to illusion.

But, if it’s the opposite…to bestow temporary reality to illusions, it is possible.

What appears are seven arrows.

The arrows that appeared from the illusion mist and had obtained substance followed the same trajectory as the seven arrows of Haku and offsetted each other.

It is a skill that I have shot several times in my mind, moreover, it is a skill that I have seen in reality once already.

Reproducing it is easy.

“Skill copy?! What a copycat!” (Haku)

“A high-power skill that destroys seven magic pressure points of the target. Even if if doesn’t manage to defeat the opponent with all attacks hitting, it would still seal their magic. It is incredibly handy-ja na. I can understand why you rely on it.” (Tomoe) ch 280

The author missuses some words, and again she just turn mist into something else with magic, she should get limited transmutation (turn people and object into mist or the opposite). it the same thing like gorgon petrification or tree punishment.

Which prove my point: matter, soul and magic are related

 

[Expectro2000xxx]

yeah, but my point was that if they didn't have those statements, then they would be assumed physical. Also, they kinda do move like electricity in the body lol

Also, what do you think about the void statement from Makoto?

Your examples were bad because they possessed details that make them different to your point, so I ask again of an example were mana is treated just like any normal energy like electricity or heat.

Nothing honestly.

 

[YungManzi]

You really think PIR is just mist transmutation and every illusion or dream statement is flowery language?

I mean, sure, if Tomoe didn't actually have illusions I could see the argument; but she does... Unless you think Tomoe can't make illusions.


You have to ignore basically every single statement about dreams, illusions, fantasy, not real, void. ect. In which case there are actually much more statements there than the mist statement, even in chapter 218 "Illusion" is mentioned more than "Mist" with regards to PIR.
Hell, it's literally in the name "Pure Illusion Reality"

I don't see how you come out thinking it's just transmutation.

 

[YungManzi]

Nothing honestly.

 

[YungManzi]

I'll ask DT about it later when I actually get to these chapters in my re-read lol.

 

[Expectro2000xxx]

You really think PIR is just mist transmutation and every illusion or dream statement is flowery language?

I mean, sure, if Tomoe didn't actually have illusions I could see the argument; but she does... Unless you think Tomoe can't make illusions.


You have to ignore basically every single statement about dreams, illusions, fantasy, not real, void. ect. In which case there are actually much more statements there than the mist statement, even in chapter 218 "Illusion" is mentioned more than "Mist" with regards to PIR.
Hell, it's literally in the name "Pure Illusion Reality"

I don't see how you come out thinking it's just transmutation.

Yeah, this, is illusion transformation, there is not much interpretation in that regard with how Tomoe whole thing are illusions.

 

[EL_xWatcher1234x]

You really think PIR is just mist transmutation and every illusion or dream statement is flowery language?

I mean, sure, if Tomoe didn't actually have illusions I could see the argument; but she does... Unless you think Tomoe can't make illusions.


You have to ignore basically every single statement about dreams, illusions, fantasy, not real, void. ect. In which case there are actually much more statements there than the mist statement, even in chapter 218 "Illusion" is mentioned more than "Mist" with regards to PIR.
Hell, it's literally in the name "Pure Illusion Reality"

I don't see how you come out thinking it's just transmutation.

Yes and she doesn't show any ability except manipulating illusions that are made from mist (magic) the reason Mio could eat them
when Makoto asked about his paralell version dream she wasn't able to read them because she can't effect dream in any way

the author consider mist=illusion which is not (alot of characters can do something like that)

Ok if Asura's (boundary, space, matter, energy) wasn't created from magic how did calamity spider forcibly enter it ? (because she can absorb magic)

 

[YungManzi]

Yes and she doesn't show any ability except manipulating illusions that are made from mist (magic) the reason Mio could eat them
when Makoto asked about his paralell version dream she wasn't able to read them because she can't effect dream in any way

the author consider mist=illusion which is not (alot of characters can do something like that)

Ok if Asura's (boundary, space, matter, energy) wasn't created from magic how did calamity spider forcibly enter it ? (because she can absorb magic)

We really don't know how mio did that. It’s not stated or shown, so you can’t make any conclusions based on that.

 

[EL_xWatcher1234x]

that's what you're doing the whole time, the problem there is no explanation for anything, because someone called mist an illusion or unreal doesn't make it so, there's is no proof (Naruto , Kousuke and many characters can do the same)

Ex: if someone control his shadow and call it unreal, that doesn't give him NEP because he just used flowery words to name his ability
if someone has an attack so fast people don't see it and call infinite speed, it won't give him infinite speed until proven (not statement because they are unreliable and exaggerate especially in this verse)

I just remembered this

“A mighty dragon, in its own territory, will see its gate destroyed. Kukukuku serves you right!!!”

After saying all he wanted to say, he disappeared like sand. He must have died believing his own words.

The other 4 bodies had already disappeared. Did they wither the same way?

And then, a tremor.

Furthermore a cloud that was covering the mountain was lowering in altitude.

A cloud, no, if I think of its attributes, it would be mist.

Anyways, it was a strange phenomenon.

I will die! ch 5

the author didn't mentioned it but she used the same thing on demons, so yes that's just transmutation into mist

by the way Mio was mentioned by the goddess to be the spirit of darkness do you think that's explain her stealth

 

[YungManzi]

Are you saying that was an instance of PIR?

Because it's stated she only gets PIR long after making the contract with Makoto.

 

[EL_xWatcher1234x]

Are you saying that was an instance of PIR?

Because it's stated she only gets PIR long after making the contract with Makoto.

yes, maybe the author wanted retconned it or something, there is so much inconsistency

 

[YungManzi]

Btw, I made a question post about the subjective reality page, really irrespective of what Tomoe has going on.

 

[EL_xWatcher1234x]

She just turned someone into mist

 

[YungManzi]

She just turned someone into mist, so please stop mentioning it

You're the only one who thinks that.

Besides; as I said that post is a general thread on the topic; and isn't directly related to Tomoe at all. I mentioned it here because it could effect how her power is currently considered.

 

[YungManzi]

y'know with the thread I posted and looking at CRTs like this it seems the general consensus is that being an illusion or dream is already considered NEP, but I'll alert some staff.

 

[Expectro2000xxx]

y'know with the thread I posted and looking at CRTs like this it seems the general consensus is that being an illusion or dream is already considered NEP, but I'll alert some staff.

Under the case that it really is considered NEP, that would mean that interact with illusions would give NPI to NEP?

 

[EL_xWatcher1234x]

you know her illusions are mist, right?

“Shut up!!” (Tomoki)

Tomoki’s lance penetrates Tomoe’s right shoulder.

But Tomoe doesn’t show any signs of pain, and blood doesn’t flow from the wound.

At another place from Tomoki’s dumbfounded expression, Tomoe’s contour blurred, becaming small grains and dispersing.

“You can’t even tell apart if the person you are talking to is an illusion. Truly, foolish. Princess Lily, our meeting here may have been sweet, but let’s make it as if it never happened. If you don’t even understand the true meaning of this and still begin foolish actions, have in mind that, not long, there will only be one hero remaining” (Tomoe)

Tomoe’s voice reverberates in their bodies.

A mist that enshrouds till the knees of an adult.

(When did this mist… It must be an illusion type. “If you don’t understand the true meaning” huh. She probably means to not make contact with Kuzunoha Company. No, as long as I don’t get the full picture of Tomoe, I should not put my hands on Tsige. Just what in the world is her? I have never heard of a dragon that can read the minds of people) (Lily)

Because of Tomoe’s spell, the forest becomes a mist labyrinth.

Tomoki and the others who were in the middle of it, could only absentmindedly stand there. ch 88

that's what I meant they misuse words, mist≠ illusion
and that's not the only time

 

[YungManzi]

Under the case that it really is considered NEP, that would mean that interact with illusions would give NPI to NEP?

yep