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Touhou low tier revision

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Because I'm somehow incapable of putting all my thoughts into a single post, here are some additions that could be made.

-Rei'sen, Ringo, and Seiran should scale to Reisen due to being fellow moon rabbits.

-Aki and Shizuha should get the same scaling justification that Hina does.

-Keine's first key could likely be upgraded since I don't think there's anything implying she's only the protector of the village in her hakutaku form.

That's about everything I can think of off the top of my head. I'm fine with the current proposals, but I'll probably do some digging after this CRT to see if I can find any better examples of scaling, or feats done by any of the non-upgraded low tiers. Considering how few people actually care about and read the fairy manga there's probably a lot that's been overlooked.
 
FujiwaraYesMokou said:
-Rei'sen, Ringo, and Seiran should scale to Reisen due to being fellow moon rabbits.

-Aki and Shizuha should get the same scaling justification that Hina does.

-Keine's first key could likely be upgraded since I don't think there's anything implying she's only the protector of the village in her hakutaku form.

That's about everything I can think of off the top of my head. I'm fine with the current proposals, but I'll probably do some digging after this CRT to see if I can find any better examples of scaling, or feats done by any of the non-upgraded low tiers. Considering how few people actually care about and read the fairy manga there's probably a lot that's been overlooked.
Click to expand...
-The thing is that reisen was originally high 4-C and none of the moon rabbits scaled to her (mostly due to her position as well) soooo.... thats likely just a possible rating for them if anything really. Rabbits generally arent portrayed as that strong from what i know.

-Hinas job is to scare people away from the mountain... theyre just trying to protect autumn and have totally different roles.

-Uhuhhhh..... She is the protector of the village both ways and im assuming its not outlierish or inconsistent for her base to scale to high tiers? My only main issue is if shes protecting it through only history manipulation or not since thats her most noteable method.

Im doing that right now smh
 
-There's nothing really indicating Reisen is far above every other moon rabbit though. Realistically speaking, 'incident resolver' should be treated as 'incident causer' in the sense that it's not something that can be given an exact tier, so maybe we could remove Reisen's 'likely far higher' for the same reason we're downgrading Letty, which would also let the other moon rabbits scale.

-Fair enough, though I guess it depends on what they're trying to protect autumn from.

-So universal Keine in both keys? I don't recall the hakutaku form actually giving her a stat amp, it just gives her some fancy youkai physiology and reverses her ability, so it'd check out.
 
Thats why i say likely rating for those three. We dont really know if reisens a lot stronger than most moon rabbits and she has a high status as an incident resolver. Also creating incidents does require you to be pretty powerful normally enough to create some kind of disaster (the fairies of light not being able to create them on their own in sabnd)

The upgrade should be fine tbh. It could be a stat amp but her reasoning for that tier doesnt change in her regular form.

Updated that list
 
letty is obviously universal because her ****** can contain the entire universe
I think she does get stronger in her hakutaku form? Might be misremembering, or it could just be fanon being treated as canon.
 
I agree with all the currently listed changes. Now we just need staff input.

In the meantime I will suffer through Eastern and Little Nature Deity's extremely bad translation and see if anything notable comes up.
 
No knowledgeable staff for 2hu exist anymore >_<
(though prom used to be on the list, dunno if anyone wanna message her again if shes interested)
 
I already messaged the staff who are on the touhou supporter list for a different touhou CRT, and one of them said they aren't knowledgeable enough on the verse while the other 2 haven't responded (´･ω･`)

We gotta find a way to get more supporters for this verse or else it'll crumble under the weight of its own CRTs
 
Sadly not most people arent into flat chested waifus

Anyway almost everybody on the knowledgeable members list 2hu is basically inactive soooo...
@Psychomaster35 Ik you said youre not the best for this but for what its worth, wanna give your take on the changes listed on 112? Or any other staff that can approve.
 
RethPo said:
Sadly not most people arent into flat chested waifus

Anyway almost everybody on the knowledgeable members list 2hu is basically inactive soooo...
@Psychomaster35 Ik you said youre not the best for this but for what its worth, wanna give your take on the changes listed on 112? Or any other staff that can approve.
Click to expand...
Agree for the most part, but for clarification, regular Cirno stays 9-B given you never listed that key, but her tanned key?
 
Some scans for a potential fairy durability feat, courtesy of @OverlordDonnelly. No idea if this can be calced or to what degree the fairies scale to it, if at all, but I thought it was worth bringing up.
20211103_215209.jpg

20211103_215227.jpg

unknown.png

Considering tornadoes are high 8-C/8-B on this wiki, if the fairies fully scale to this, it'd be a decent upgrade over what we have now, and get everyone out of tier 9.

Of course, we'd have to actually figure out how strong the tornado is first. It'd probably be on the higher end since it can uproot the entirety of the Three Fairies of Light's tree house and carry them above the mountains.
 
The fairies dont scale to it. Being taken away by the wind of a tornado doesnt scale you to the tornadoes total energy. Even people in real life can potentially survive one. It would scale to tengu though.

The full context of it was that the tengu was using there wind to just take there tree house up to the mountain for inspection.
 
Probably doesn't scale to the low tier tengu like Momiji since the fairies get a latter from one of the great tengu saying it was her doing, so I guess there's not much of a point to calcing it if nobody scales.

I'm still mad we can't calc Cirno's big ice cube though >:V
 
Eh, prolly would have been higher wall level at best.
I guess its safe to make the changes to the profiles then (ill save keines upgrade for a little more agreement)
 
Edited alice and patchy and i can do the rest later. Wait... that scene with the block if ice... the actual block of ice was the thing on there left? I thought it was just a random hill or something
 
It should be. We don't see it in any of the shots prior to Cirno showing up and freezing everything, and the other fairies are clearly sitting in a small field of icicles right next to it.
 
Something about its size being inconsistent between shots? I personally think it's a stupid reason since the perspective is completely different between panels, and the first shot doesn't even give us enough of a view to determine the size of the ice in comparison to the second panel anyways. Could maybe ask Psychomaster what they think.
unknown.png

Of course, even if we did calc it, the issue then is if it scales to physicals, and while I do have arguments for a touhou UES, I'd rather wait until the UES guidelines are finalized.
 
I mean... cirno as a fairy embodies ice a as an aspect of nature sooo... should scale to it.

My guess is its either to do with the angle and close up... that or the snow/ice mountain could be growing over time.
 
Oh hey Psychomaster while you're here, would you mind giving your thoughts on Cirno's ice feat I posted above? Can it be calced or is it unusable?
 
So, @OverlordDonnelly found some more scans for low tiers, and Cirno has an ice creation feat with a much more explicit size.
20211104_162727.jpg

I am extremely bad at math but based on my rough estimates, this came out to around 0.057875 tons of tnt, or small building level. Would still like to see her other feat calced, but this will hopefully be enough to get every low tier out of wall level.
 
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Looking at the context of the first ice feat that hill isnt made by cirno, the hill appears behind the three fairies when they get to the lake in that exact place. At most cirno covered the hill in ice.

For that block there... i mean... it doesnt seem any bigger than the chunks of ice we already know she can create...
 
You're talking about this image, right?
unknown.png

It seems way smaller than the ice hill we see later on, so maybe we could calc the size of this hill, subtract it from the size of the ice hill, and use that to get the total amount of ice she created?

I also did a very rough calc of this ice creation feat and it came out to 3.66578694818 tons of tnt, so... tier 8 fairies? Like I said, don't take my word on this, I'm just trying to get a rough idea of where Cirno's tier is until someone better at calcs than me comes along. Hisoutensoku has a lot of potential ice creation feats tbh.
 
Yeah, I did a very quick comparison and the hill is about 3x the height of an individual fairy in the first shot, and is suddenly about 15x their height AT MINIMUM in the last page (adjusted for the fact that they're sitting down ofc). So it seems likely Cirno encased the hill in a very thick layer of ice. Probably won't be as impressive as it would be if the entire thing were Cirno's doing, but even taking that into account it'd be easily 8-B or more based on just eyeballing it.

Overall I think we have enough ice creation feats to at least get Cirno out of wall level for good, if not into tier 8 territory.
 
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@Psychomaster35 Ummm so. Not sure which staff to contact about approving the upgrades. Butttt, what do you think about what mokous mentioned? In terms of whether those ice feats are useable or not?
 
Ive asked around on discord and freezing things or making ice really isnt treat as much of a feat. Even under a ues unless its stat amping related or something. I agree with that personally anyways...

But eh. I guess all there is to do is for any staff to agree with this or not... everyone knowledgeable agree so... (unless the storm creation isnt valid... )
RethPo said:
Aight so heres what i have:
Building level (a + rating if theyre no doubt stronger than nitori whos 0.004 times weaker than 8-C+): Either scaling to kappas or tanking a train explosion
Seiran At least Wall level, likely Building level (Superior to cirno. Shouldnt be too far behind moon rabbits like reisen)
Ringo At least Wall level, likely Building level (Superior to cirno. Shouldnt be too far behind moon rabbits like reisen)
Rei'sen At least Wall level, likely Building level (Superior to cirno. Shouldnt be too far behind moon rabbits like reisen. Is a replacement to reisen as well)
Parsee Mizuhashi At least Building level, likely higher (Guards the bridge to the underworld which is already near the mountain and should scale to strong youkai)
Hina Kagiyama At least Building level (Guards the youkai mountain and scares humans off, shouldnt be too far behind kappa as a result)
Yamame Kurodani At least Building level, likely higher (Youkai underground are strong and dangerous by youkai standards so they should at least be comparable. Although characters like kisume could scale by that logic, but little is known about kisume except shes a stage 1 midboss)
Rin Kaenbyou At least Building level, likely higher (is the stage 5 boss and should be comparable to if not stronger than the other underworld youkai)
(Tsukumogami are quite strong rite?)
Nitori Building level (For her feat)
Minamitsu Murasa At least Building level, likely higher (Quite strong going by her profile)
Sumireko usami At least Building level (Took yukaris train. Not sure if shes mega strong otherwise or scales beyond nitori)
Shion yorigami At least Building level, likely higher
joon yorigami At least Building level, likely higher (Same as sumireko)
Shinmyoumaru At least Building level, likely higher (Scales to train. Maybe she could have a +? Not sure)
Reisen At least Building level, likely higher (Incident resolver making her somewhere in gensokyos power balance. Should be at least comparable to kappa)
Eternity Larva At least Building level, likely far higher (Way more powerful than most fairies and is speculated to even be a god. Unknown how strong she is compared to other youkai but shouldnt be weaker than kappa based on her explanation)
Tanned Cirno At least Building level+, likely far higher (Wayyy stronger than before. Should be stronger than eternity partly powered by onika)
Momiji At least Building level+, likely higher (tengu are stronger than kappa and some of the stronger youkai in gensokyo)
Iku Nagae At least Building level+, possibly far higher (Has a portion of dragon god power, lives above the mountain and watches over weather, shouldnt be weaker than kappa)
En'era At least Building level+, likely higher (Powerful youkai that had to be sealed)
Giant toad At least Building level+, likely higher (Lives on the mountain. Youkai who live on the mountain including tengu and kappa are afraid of it. Should also have cold resistance btw)
Hong Meiling At least Building level+, likely higher (Served as a guard to the sdm before scr. Should be able to fend off decently strong youkai)
Nemuno At least Building level, likely higher (Strong youkai living on the youkai mountain and should at least scale to the kappa that live there
Letty whiterock second key At least Building level, likely higher (Should be downgraded. Her justification is that "her power would create an incident" which already listed wall levels can do. It doesnt require you to be top tier at all. Even saikou agreed with downgrading this in the past but never got down to doing so. It could still make her building level)

Characters im still pretty unsure about:
Soga no Tojiko At least building level? (one of mikos followers. Thats all i have)
Mai Teireida and Satono Nishida At least Building level+, possibly far higher (Partly powered by onika so prolly quite strong)

Storm creation feat
Raiko Horikawa Low 7-B
Yatsuhashi tsukumo Low 7-B (her and benben were created in the same way as raiko iirc so they should scale)
Benben tsukumo Low 7-B
Kogasa Tatara At least 8-C+, possibly low 7-B (Should be stronger than kappa such as nitori. Potentially scales to tsukumogami such as raiko)
Hata no Kokoro At least 8-C+, possibly low 7-B (Should be stronger than kappa, may scale to tsukumogami such as raiko)
Koishi Komeji At least 8-C+, possibly low 7-B (Considered a rival to hata no kokoro)
Satori Komeji At least 8-C+, possibly low 7-B (Should be way stronger than a lot of underground youkai including rin. Shouldnt be that much weaker than koishi
Seija Kijin At least 8-C+, possibly low 7-B (Encouraged people to break spell card rules to capture her. Pretty strong youkai. Scales above yoshika)
Yoshika At least 8-C+, possibly low 7-B (Intimidating youkai, guardian to seija, possibly comparable to kogasa)

So what does everyone reading think about this? Any questions or suggestions?
Click to expand...
 
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I don't understand why it wouldn't be a feat since you're still essentially transferring energy like with any other feat, something we know for a fact Cirno is doing.
unknown.png

From my understanding, for a freezing/ice creation feat to be valid, there needs to be an explicit transfer of energy and not just something getting frozen without any indication of where all that energy went (as is the case with freeze rays and similar attacks that are common in fiction), and a UES is necessary for said feat to scale to physical abilities like durability and striking strength.

I could be wrong, but I would rather wait until we get staff input on the matter before writing off these feats entirely, since they're one of the better options we have for low tier feats (´･ω･`)
 
There was an entire thread on this, actually, and it seems like freezing feats are here to stay (unless something has changed that I'm not aware of). Of course, Cirno's physicals scaling is a different story, but we'll cross that bridge when we get to it.
 
Can somebody link to the accepted calculations, and list which characters that should scale to what, along with any other conclusions here, please?

After that, I can ask Promestein, Theglassman12, CrimsonStarFallen, and DarkDragonMedeus to comment here.
 
Here's the blog with the calcs: https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/User_blog:Psychomaster35/Touhou_Project:_Assorted_Feats

And here's what RethPo has proposed for the scaling. I think we still need to determine the possibility of a Keine upgrade, or if the few freezing feats we've found are able to be calced and used for scaling.
RethPo said:
Aight so heres what i have:
Building level (a + rating if theyre no doubt stronger than nitori whos 0.004 times weaker than 8-C+): Either scaling to kappas or tanking a train explosion
Seiran At least Wall level, likely Building level (Superior to cirno. Shouldnt be too far behind moon rabbits like reisen)
Ringo At least Wall level, likely Building level (Superior to cirno. Shouldnt be too far behind moon rabbits like reisen)
Rei'sen At least Wall level, likely Building level (Superior to cirno. Shouldnt be too far behind moon rabbits like reisen. Is a replacement to reisen as well)
Parsee Mizuhashi At least Building level, likely higher (Guards the bridge to the underworld which is already near the mountain and should scale to strong youkai)
Hina Kagiyama At least Building level (Guards the youkai mountain and scares humans off, shouldnt be too far behind kappa as a result)
Yamame Kurodani At least Building level, likely higher (Youkai underground are strong and dangerous by youkai standards so they should at least be comparable. Although characters like kisume could scale by that logic, but little is known about kisume except shes a stage 1 midboss)
Rin Kaenbyou At least Building level, likely higher (is the stage 5 boss and should be comparable to if not stronger than the other underworld youkai)
(Tsukumogami are quite strong rite?)
Nitori Building level (For her feat)
Minamitsu Murasa At least Building level, likely higher (Quite strong going by her profile)
Sumireko usami At least Building level (Took yukaris train. Not sure if shes mega strong otherwise or scales beyond nitori)
Shion yorigami At least Building level, likely higher
joon yorigami At least Building level, likely higher (Same as sumireko)
Shinmyoumaru At least Building level, likely higher (Scales to train. Maybe she could have a +? Not sure)
Reisen At least Building level, likely higher (Incident resolver making her somewhere in gensokyos power balance. Should be at least comparable to kappa)
Eternity Larva At least Building level, likely far higher (Way more powerful than most fairies and is speculated to even be a god. Unknown how strong she is compared to other youkai but shouldnt be weaker than kappa based on her explanation)
Tanned Cirno At least Building level+, likely far higher (Wayyy stronger than before. Should be stronger than eternity partly powered by onika)
Momiji At least Building level+, likely higher (tengu are stronger than kappa and some of the stronger youkai in gensokyo)
Iku Nagae At least Building level+, possibly far higher (Has a portion of dragon god power, lives above the mountain and watches over weather, shouldnt be weaker than kappa)
En'era At least Building level+, likely higher (Powerful youkai that had to be sealed)
Giant toad At least Building level+, likely higher (Lives on the mountain. Youkai who live on the mountain including tengu and kappa are afraid of it. Should also have cold resistance btw)
Hong Meiling At least Building level+, likely higher (Served as a guard to the sdm before scr. Should be able to fend off decently strong youkai)
Nemuno At least Building level, likely higher (Strong youkai living on the youkai mountain and should at least scale to the kappa that live there
Letty whiterock second key At least Building level, likely higher (Should be downgraded. Her justification is that "her power would create an incident" which already listed wall levels can do. It doesnt require you to be top tier at all. Even saikou agreed with downgrading this in the past but never got down to doing so. It could still make her building level)

Characters im still pretty unsure about:
Soga no Tojiko At least building level? (one of mikos followers. Thats all i have)
Mai Teireida and Satono Nishida At least Building level+, possibly far higher (Partly powered by onika so prolly quite strong)

Small city level storm creation scaling:
Raiko Horikawa Low 7-B
Yatsuhashi tsukumo Low 7-B (her and benben were created in the same way as raiko iirc so they should scale)
Benben tsukumo Low 7-B
Kogasa Tatara At least 8-C+, possibly low 7-B (Should be stronger than kappa such as nitori. Potentially scales to tsukumogami such as raiko)
Hata no Kokoro At least 8-C+, possibly low 7-B (Should be stronger than kappa, may scale to tsukumogami such as raiko)
Koishi Komeji At least 8-C+, possibly low 7-B (Considered a rival to hata no kokoro)
Satori Komeji At least 8-C+, possibly low 7-B (Should be way stronger than a lot of underground youkai including rin. Shouldnt be that much weaker than koishi
Seija Kijin At least 8-C+, possibly low 7-B (Encouraged people to break spell card rules to capture her. Pretty strong youkai. Scales above yoshika)
Yoshika At least 8-C+, possibly low 7-B (Intimidating youkai, guardian to seija, possibly comparable to kogasa)

Remaining changes:
Alice and patchouli being 9-B physically with tier 2 magic
Keine possibly becoming tier 2 in both keys since shes the protector of the village either way

So what does everyone reading think about this? Any questions or suggestions?
Click to expand...
 
I am a bit iffy about the storm creation though. By the looks of it (weirdly translated) it was created as a magical result of her new drum ability? Is that even scaleable to physicals?

(I havent played ddc so i dunno if theres more context)
 
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